Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR

wrote in message
ups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR

100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure.
1 foot = .43 psi
just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want

wrote:

Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR


Sounds like a good plan to me.

You will get 43PSI at the cabin. The slope of the hill
doesn't matter and no regulator is needed.

(I assume the spring is at the same height as the tank
will be so no pumping is needed.)

1.5" pipe should be more than big enough.
The pipe should be buried deeply to keep heat gain
in the pipe to a minimum. Keep in mind that all
the water volume in the pipe needs to be drained/used
before you receive water at the temp of the tank.

Jim

wrote in message
ups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR

1. 100 feet of elevation difference.

2. No

3. No

I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the excess
water.
Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow.
This data is missing.

SJF

wrote:

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

No need for a regulator, the head is unlikely to vary by more than the
height of the barrel anyway.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

Yup, the angle makes little difference (it does dictate the length of
the pipe which will have some influence on flow rate, but not static
pressure.

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

Your 100' sounds about right

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

In theory, but even double your proposed head would be unlikely to cause
serious problems for most pipes / fittings / brassware etc.

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

Nope - not unless you need to restrict pressure to some appliance not
designed to handle it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I did this kinda thing for my mom, back in 1976... geez how time
flies

Anyhow with a similiar drop and using garden hose we were able to run a
sprinkler the kind that goes left and right, for a long time.

in my moms case she had a cistern on the hill, for their home.

I tapped the overflow to a old hot water tank so she could water her
garden withourt concern about depleting the water for her house. It
worked great till my moved back here and got diovorced.

odd how something that long ago applies here today

SJF wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

1. 100 feet of elevation difference.
2. No
3. No

Thank you. Your answer matched the other reply. Hummm. Why did I not
know the answer? 100 feet of head is 100 feet of head, after all. It
does not seem it could be that simple.

I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the excess
water.

Yes.

Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow.
This data is missing.

The greatest demand at the cabin will probably be a shower: about 5
gallons a minute at most. Since the hill's incline is about 20 degrees,
I can probably use a sine table to find distance. Angle "A" is 20
degrees and side "a" is 100 feet. Makes me wish I finished high school.
:-) Horizontal distance at the moment is unknown because I do not know
how far away, climbing the hill, will be 100 feet high.

Thank you for your answers. Since the answer to query #2 appears to be
"No," then we can err on the side of too high.

SJF

wrote:
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR



You already have your answer -- 100 vertical feet from the cabin will
give you 43 PSI static pressure. The pipe size is determined first by
your maximum expected draw rate and then by the length. The more
gallons per minutes you want, the larger the pipe to avoid too much
pressure drop. (sorry, I don't recall the flow rates for different size
pipes) Don't forget that there's a 1.25" pipe size.

Bob

Jerry Avins wrote:

wrote:

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

50 PSI is not too high for domestic plumbing. The pump switch at my
country cabin keeps the tank pressure between 30 and 50 psi. (The tank
level is approximately floor level.) There is a pressure-relief valve
rated at 150 psi to ensure that the tank doesn't burst from
overpressure, and the pipes can withstand more than that. PVC schedule
40 pipe is rated at 280 PSI cold, derated to 210 at 90F. (Derate to 72%
to allow for water hammer.) Where freezing is possible, you may prefer
polyethylene, which withstands somewhat lower pressure but tolerates
freezing and better withstands water hammer.

In any case, 1-1/4" pipe will generously supply your cabin from any
reasonable distance. My cabin is supplied by a 1" pipe through a 100'
run from the tank I mentioned. My suburban house is supplied from the
main 125' distant through a 1" pipe, and inside plumbing is 1/2" copper,
though 3/4 would be better. "Just do it" would seem to be appropriate.

Humm. Thank you for your reply. We plan on burrying the pipe about 24
inches because freezing is a problem. However we will also plumb a
fitting to drain the system. The owner of the ranch, bless her heart,
wants water in the cabin even in the winter, so we plan on burrying the
supply system and then adding drain taps to the shower and sink.

The owner of the ranch suggested 1.5 inch pipe but I said, guessing,
that would be "over-kill." However, it also occured to me that bigger
is always better. :-) If they can afford the 1.5 inch pipe, I'll
install it. I think polyethylene will be used since that is what is
used on other parts of the ranch (there is water already going to The
Big House and also water going down here in the bunk house where I
live).

Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water
does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so
it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an
on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no
tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve.

Thank you for your reply.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

wrote:

I did this kinda thing for my mom, back in 1976... geez how time
flies

Yeah, damn few of us are getting younger as the days fly by. :-)

Anyhow with a similiar drop and using garden hose we were able to run a
sprinkler the kind that goes left and right, for a long time.

in my moms case she had a cistern on the hill, for their home.

I tapped the overflow to a old hot water tank so she could water her
garden withourt concern about depleting the water for her house. It
worked great till my moved back here and got diovorced.

odd how something that long ago applies here today

Hummm. I was thinking of a second tank at the cabin but the demand for
water probably will not be that great.

Thank you for the reply--- I have added it to my notes to tell the
ranch owners.

Cameron Dorrough wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

You didn't say how far up the hill the spring is... If you plan to bury the
barrel higher up the hill than the spring, you will most likely have to
install a pump to fill the barrel.

Hi. Thank you for replying to my query.

The spring is quite high up the hill (at the moment I do not know the
height), however there is already a pipe from it going down to the
ranch. The goal here is to tap into that pipe to fill a buried 55 drum
and have the over-flow continue down to the ranch. The bottom of the
barrel would then be plumbed to the cabin.

If you do need to install a pump, it is probably cheaper and a lot less
trouble to install the barrel, pump and a pressure regulator at the cabin
itself to save installing several hundred feet of pipe and pump motor
cables - and maybe use the excess head pressure to run a turbine supplying
power to both the pump and the cabin.

There is no power at the cabin. As for the excess pressure, the amount
of work (w=fd) the water could perform at the cabin would be zero: the
water flow would be at where the 55 gallon drum is. But I like the idea
of getting power out of the water: at the moment the water flows into a
fish pond and then is piped down to the river---- all gravity fed.

HTH,
Cameron:-)

zxcvbob wrote:

You already have your answer -- 100 vertical feet from the cabin will
give you 43 PSI static pressure. The pipe size is determined first by
your maximum expected draw rate and then by the length. The more
gallons per minutes you want, the larger the pipe to avoid too much
pressure drop. (sorry, I don't recall the flow rates for different size
pipes) Don't forget that there's a 1.25" pipe size.

Thank you. Unless I can think of any reason other than cost to not
suggest the ranch owners buy 1.5 polyethylene hose, that is what I'll
suggest: it is the same size and material currently used elsewhere on
the ranch.

As for pressure drops, I'll ask the ranch owners what shower head flow
rate they plan on installing. Seems to me they could run five gallons a
minute and still suffer no pressure drop.

Bob

1.5 DEFINETELY BETTER! Thats what I helped install for my moms main
water line. a gazillion years ago, its pretty cheap to.

you might add a solar panel & battery for minimal lighting too.

wrote:
Cameron Dorrough wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

You didn't say how far up the hill the spring is... If you plan to bury the
barrel higher up the hill than the spring, you will most likely have to
install a pump to fill the barrel.

Hi. Thank you for replying to my query.

The spring is quite high up the hill (at the moment I do not know the
height), however there is already a pipe from it going down to the
ranch. The goal here is to tap into that pipe to fill a buried 55 drum
and have the over-flow continue down to the ranch. The bottom of the
barrel would then be plumbed to the cabin.

If you do need to install a pump, it is probably cheaper and a lot less
trouble to install the barrel, pump and a pressure regulator at the cabin
itself to save installing several hundred feet of pipe and pump motor
cables - and maybe use the excess head pressure to run a turbine supplying
power to both the pump and the cabin.

There is no power at the cabin. As for the excess pressure, the amount
of work (w=fd) the water could perform at the cabin would be zero: the
water flow would be at where the 55 gallon drum is. But I like the idea
of getting power out of the water: at the moment the water flows into a
fish pond and then is piped down to the river---- all gravity fed.

HTH,
Cameron:-)

But you could use the overflow if it is run through a pipe down to the
cabin. That will give you 43 psi and 10gpm to work with. Would supply
quite a goodly steady amount of electricity - expensive electricity
until the equipment amortizes but...

The only time you would get less than 10gpm flow would be while water
is being drawn at the cabin.

pressure regulator. It is absolutely unneccessary unless you go
-way- up the hill to install the collector barrel.

pipe size. You might as well go with the 1.5 in as the difference
in cost between that and a smaller size over 100 ft is minimal.

Harry K

wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

You already have your answer -- 100 vertical feet from the cabin will
give you 43 PSI static pressure. The pipe size is determined first by
your maximum expected draw rate and then by the length. The more
gallons per minutes you want, the larger the pipe to avoid too much
pressure drop. (sorry, I don't recall the flow rates for different size
pipes) Don't forget that there's a 1.25" pipe size.

Thank you. Unless I can think of any reason other than cost to not
suggest the ranch owners buy 1.5 polyethylene hose, that is what I'll
suggest: it is the same size and material currently used elsewhere on
the ranch.

As for pressure drops, I'll ask the ranch owners what shower head flow
rate they plan on installing. Seems to me they could run five gallons a
minute and still suffer no pressure drop.

Bob

Yeah you are right about almost no pressure drop because it will be
very small (about 1psi) for 5 gal/min over 1000' or pipe. You could
drop the size to 1 1/4 and not notice the difference. 1 1/2" pipe
would give you more capacity (in case someone want to have a shower,
run a washing machine and flush the toilet simultaneously).

"SJF" wrote in message
news:sEsMf.70025$bF.45229@dukeread07...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR

1. 100 feet of elevation difference.

2. No

3. No

I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the
excess water.
Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow.
This data is missing.

SJF

Sorry! I hastily misread your question 2. The answer is YES. If you put
the collector higher than 100 feet, the static pressure will be more than 43
psi.

That's a pretty steep hill at 20 degrees. Or did you mean 20 percent grade?
A slope of 20 degrees means the minimum length of your supply line to the
house will be 300 feet. For a 20 percent slope, it would be 500 feet. You
will probably need something to counter water hammer when you shut off the
flow.

SJF

In article .com
, writes

Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water
does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so
it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an
on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no
tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve.

I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely
be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that
kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater
can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are
likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a
washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

wrote in message
ups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

DMR

to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right
before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve
is closed.
Or another way is to put a tee in the line then run a vertical pipe up a few
feet and cap it...the trapped air will act as a "shock absorber" when valves
are closed.

"digitalmaster" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly,
so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my
query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup
list as far as I can tell.

I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water
spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38
liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole
and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the
spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from
the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also
be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of
my query.)

At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of
water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5
inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter /
pressure regulator.

The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is
important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of
the water source above the water demand (the "head").

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

Keep the drum as near to the borehole as possible.

It may be worth your while making the drum bigger, or multiple drums, for a
large water store. Then keep the borehols as small as possible to avoid
losing water. If it gushes away you may dry up the water source at certain
times of the year. Only you can actually know this being local to it.

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

Not at 3 bar there isn't.

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

At about 3 bar (30 foot vertically is approx 1 bar) you don't have great
pressure. My house is 4.5 bar from the mains with no pressure reducer. 3
bar will give a nice shower too.

to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right
before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve
is closed.

It is called a shock arrestor. It can be the size of a tennis ball. Water
hammer tends to be when taps are turned off sharply, like having lever
handles. Water hammer may not be a problem as any shocks may work their way
back up the supply pipe.

Or another way is to put a tee in the
line then run a vertical pipe up a few feet and cap it...the trapped air
will act as a "shock absorber" when valves are closed.

The air pocket will eventually disappear, so best get the proper fitting.

In article .com,
wrote:
digitalmaster wrote:

100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure.
1 foot = .43 psi
just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want

Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows
could have figured that out.



I can make it more complicated for you, if you like. Pressure is force
per unit area, or the weight of water per unit area. The volume of water
in a pipe is V=A*h, where A is the cross-sectional area and h is the
height. The density is d, acceleration of gravity g, giving a weight of
W=A*h*d*g, and divide by A to get pressure, P=hdg. But d and g are
physical constants, the only parameter that you can adjust is h.

So just say 0.43 psi per foot.

No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height
of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position.

Also, if the pipe is too skinny the pressure will drop when the water is
running because of the impedence of the line. I don't know off-hand what
you'd get from a one inch ID.

If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that
had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know
what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli
if you think it might be a problem.

--
"In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular
hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd

Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:


This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)

Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?

Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.

There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up
than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a
community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for
me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics
of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the
flow is the same.

Harry K
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

In article ,
Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:


This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)

Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?

Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.

There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!

I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.

--
"You're not as dumb as you look. Or sound. Or our best testing
indicates." -- Monty Burns to Homer Simpson

Harry K wrote:
wrote:
Cameron Dorrough wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

My query is:

1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be?

2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too
high up the hill?

3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary?

I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject.

You didn't say how far up the hill the spring is... If you plan to bury the
barrel higher up the hill than the spring, you will most likely have to
install a pump to fill the barrel.

Hi. Thank you for replying to my query.

The spring is quite high up the hill (at the moment I do not know the
height), however there is already a pipe from it going down to the
ranch. The goal here is to tap into that pipe to fill a buried 55 drum
and have the over-flow continue down to the ranch. The bottom of the
barrel would then be plumbed to the cabin.

If you do need to install a pump, it is probably cheaper and a lot less
trouble to install the barrel, pump and a pressure regulator at the cabin
itself to save installing several hundred feet of pipe and pump motor
cables - and maybe use the excess head pressure to run a turbine supplying
power to both the pump and the cabin.

There is no power at the cabin. As for the excess pressure, the amount
of work (w=fd) the water could perform at the cabin would be zero: the
water flow would be at where the 55 gallon drum is. But I like the idea
of getting power out of the water: at the moment the water flows into a
fish pond and then is piped down to the river---- all gravity fed.

HTH,
Cameron:-)

But you could use the overflow if it is run through a pipe down to the
cabin. That will give you 43 psi and 10gpm to work with. Would supply
quite a goodly steady amount of electricity - expensive electricity
until the equipment amortizes but...

The only time you would get less than 10gpm flow would be while water
is being drawn at the cabin.

pressure regulator. It is absolutely unneccessary unless you go
-way- up the hill to install the collector barrel.

pipe size. You might as well go with the 1.5 in as the difference
in cost between that and a smaller size over 100 ft is minimal.

Harry K

Ooops. I forgot. Your total run is going to be well over 100 ft. 100
ft is only the rise. The pipe cost will still not be a budget breaker.

Harry K

fred wrote:
In article .com
, writes

Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water
does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so
it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an
on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no
tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve.

I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely
be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that
kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater
can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are
likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a
washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures
way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not
expensive. Not needed in his installation though.

Harry K

"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:

...

I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.

A riser is a way to create a volume out of materials at hand. Like any
tank with water in contact with air, it needs a way to replenish the air
periodically. Because the air-water interface is relatively small, loss of
air is relatively slow.

Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
[snip]
If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that
had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know
what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli
if you think it might be a problem.

E. Coli, cryptosporidia, giardia, the fun never ends. Plus, some
possible things that may be in the water require either boiling
or significant chemicals to get rid of.

They typical way that cattle country folk test the water goes
like so. They elect one of their group to try the water. They
don't *tell* him he's elected, just fill his canteen with the
at-hand liquid. If he remains of acceptable health, the water
is declared fit to drink.
Socks

wrote:

1.5 DEFINETELY BETTER! Thats what I helped install for my moms main
water line. a gazillion years ago, its pretty cheap to.

Since I do not have to pay for it, I agree! :-) At the moment it is too
dark to go outside, climb the hill (it is heavily wooded forest), and
triangulate height and distance--- so I do not know how long the
pipe/hose must be. If I recall correctly, the 1.5 poly hose comes on a
huge reel. We want to have no breaks in the hose because roots tend to
get into pipe fittings when they are buried.

you might add a solar panel & battery for minimal lighting too.

That would be far too good for the ranch's guests. :-) Several
so-called "celebrities" have stayed in the cabin using oil lamps to see
by since there's no electricity (I could name a few "celebrities" if
pressed). Since propane has already been plumbed into the cabin, the
idea is to use propane lamps.

As soon as the ground thaws (perhaps in May) we hope to start trenching
for the water hose. That in addition to branding the calves, planting
the chili peppers, and splitting wood for next winter. Gods! The work
involved! :-)

I very much appreciate all who have answered my questions. It makes the
job easier when someone else does the thinking for me. :-)

"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:


This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)

Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?

Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.

There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up
than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a
community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for
me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics
of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the
flow is the same.

Harry K
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Actually, in your case, it is the distance from your house to the water main
that determines the water hammer. Not the total distance to the supply
source. The OP is dealing with a single long pipe which will create a
problem unlike the usual suburban situation.

SJF

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows
could have figured that out.

I can make it more complicated for you, if you like.

Great! My life is not nearly as complicated as it outta be. :-)

Pressure is force
per unit area, or the weight of water per unit area. The volume of water
in a pipe is V=A*h, where A is the cross-sectional area and h is the
height. The density is d, acceleration of gravity g, giving a weight of
W=A*h*d*g, and divide by A to get pressure, P=hdg. But d and g are
physical constants, the only parameter that you can adjust is h.

So just say 0.43 psi per foot.

Okay, I will. :-) I have yet to look at the on-demand propane water
heater's specifications for water pressure to see what its tolerances
are, but at the moment I am considering locating the water source 120
feet above the outlet.

No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height
of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position.

We will probably create our own flat area on the hill to bury the water
collection box (55 gallon drum), so the hill will not force us to pick
a site we don't want--- unless we hit a boulder. But then we also got
some dynamite.

Also, if the pipe is too skinny the pressure will drop when the water is
running because of the impedence of the line. I don't know off-hand what
you'd get from a one inch ID.

Current water lines on the ranch are 1.5 diameter. I suppose the owners
of the ranch will want to keep the same diameter, since there are
already tools and spare parts for that size.

If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that
had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know
what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli
if you think it might be a problem.

I have been force to drink such water when I hiked across the Mojave
Desert and then up the length of Death Valley (for fun; no, really).
Fortunately the water here is extremely clean: it comes out of rocks
and flows into a concrete tank at the spring; the spring and tank are
covered with plastic sheeting, plywood, and rocks. Two of the three
humans who live here have been drinking it for 11 years.

For 40 years that water used to be transported down to the ranch via
cedar logs that had been carved into troughs like a flue; 30 years ago
that flue was replaced with hose.

There is another good spring down the canyon a mile that was once flued
down to the canyon floor (well, a bench 30 feet above the canyon floor)
around 70 years ago. It is located at the base of a cliff wall that
rises 1,700 feet. I climb up there now and then to get a drink. :-)

--
"In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular
hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd

"Gregory L. Hansen" wrote in message
...
In article ,

I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright,
capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.

Correct. There is also the possibility of using a pop-off valve as used on
steam boilers set for something like 70 pounds of pressure -- located near
the cabin, of course. This would assume the occasional spurt of waste water
can be accommodated.

OT --I was once assigned as maintenance engineer for a group of irrigation
projects. At one location we had a buried 39 inch pipe, a mile long, from a
reservoir to the head of a canal. Failure of the local crews to observe
operating procedures at the springtime turn on of the system resulted in
water hammer that blew off three manhole structures along the length of the
pipe. Fortunately, no pipe was broken and we were able to get the system
back in operation before water was needed. But we should have had some kind
of custom designed pressure relief device built in near the end of the pipe.

SJF

In article .com
, Harry K writes

fred wrote:
In article .com
, writes

Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water
does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so
it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an
on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no
tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve.

I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely
be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that
kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater
can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are
likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a
washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures
way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not
expensive. Not needed in his installation though.

I suppose that depends where you come from. If you come from places
where mains pressure hot water storage is not the norm then that is not
the case. A lower pressure tank can always be made for less than a high
pressure one.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

Okay, I will. :-) I have yet to look at the on-demand propane water
heater's specifications for water pressure to see what its tolerances
are, but at the moment I am considering locating the water source 120
feet above the outlet.

The propane on-demand heater I've got works with 18' of head
fed through a 3/4" garden hose, but not with 16'. I know
this because the 55-gal barrel sits on a 16' tower, and
the heater doesn't work when the barrel's less than half full.


No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height
of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position.

We will probably create our own flat area on the hill to bury the water
collection box (55 gallon drum), so the hill will not force us to pick
a site we don't want--- unless we hit a boulder. But then we also got
some dynamite.

The message
from Jerry Avins contains these words:

Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.

And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The
volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.

Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

fred wrote:
In article .com

, Harry K writes

fred wrote:

In article .com

, writes

Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water
does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so
it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an
on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no
tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve.

I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely
be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that
kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater
can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are
likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a
washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures
way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not
expensive. Not needed in his installation though.


I suppose that depends where you come from. If you come from places
where mains pressure hot water storage is not the norm then that is not
the case. A lower pressure tank can always be made for less than a high
pressure one.

Your view of pressures is not consistent with
reality. Consider that many tires take a static
50-60 psi and all are at least 35psi rating; when
you hit a bump psi goes high. Bicycle tires
normally run these days from around 50 psi to 125
psi. At my house the city pressure is 70-80 psi
and no one has a problem with the pressure. Any
metal pipe can easily take a pressure of at least
100 psi and any water heater is designed for an
even higher bursting pressure. Really cheap poly
pipe is made for 80 psi, better grades are rated
at 120 psi and higher. And of course almost all
lawn hoses will take a minimum pressure of 70=80
psi and most are fine with quite a bit more
(especially if you don't leave them pressurized in
the sun at 105 degrees. Even food grade
polyethylene (very soft plastic) will take 40-50
psi as long as you don't let it get hot.

As for tank costs, a 20 gallon air tank rated for
125 psi can be bought for less than $25. And you
can buy new empty 5 gallon propane tanks that will
take very high pressure for $20.

In article
et, George E. Cawthon writes
fred wrote:
In article .com

, Harry K writes

fred wrote:

In article .com

, writes

Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water
does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so
it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an
on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no
tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve.

I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely
be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that
kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater
can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are
likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a
washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures
way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not
expensive. Not needed in his installation though.


I suppose that depends where you come from. If you come from places
where mains pressure hot water storage is not the norm then that is not
the case. A lower pressure tank can always be made for less than a high
pressure one.

Your view of pressures is not consistent with
reality.

Whose particular view of reality is that? Are you familiar with the practices
of hot water storage throughout the world? You may notice that at least
one of the cross posted groups in this thread is UK specific so you have
gained the experience of someone who lives in that area.

Here, hot water, if stored, is generally contained in either copper or
stainless steel 'cylinders' to avoid the effects of corrosion. Copper is
expensive and so low pressure tanks are made thinner and therefore
cheaper. It is not common practice here to store hot water in bicycle tyres
or propane tanks.
--
fred
Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla

Guy King wrote:

The message
from Jerry Avins contains these words:


Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.


And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The
volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.


Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.

How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the
water and the air?

"Nick" wrote in message ...
Guy King wrote:



How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the
water and the air?

Just fill the stand pipe with tennis balls. Make sure the
pipe is slightly wider than the balls.

SJF wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jerry Avins wrote:
mm wrote:


This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back.
8-)

Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting
off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe.
How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something?

Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t
can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that
steel pipe might generate.

There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing
about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph.
If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour,
would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't!

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up
than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a
community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for
me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics
of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the
flow is the same.

Harry K
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Actually, in your case, it is the distance from your house to the water main
that determines the water hammer. Not the total distance to the supply
source. The OP is dealing with a single long pipe which will create a
problem unlike the usual suburban situation.

SJF

That was my distance to the system, 1/4 mile of pipe between my house
and the well, no other connections.

Harry K

Jerry Avins wrote:
Nick wrote:
Guy King wrote:

The message
from Jerry Avins contains these words:


Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use)
and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed.



And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best.
The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't
large.



Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down
the loss, too.


How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water
and the air?

If the friction is low and the pipe smooth, that ought to work pretty well.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

Of course the best method if a hammer is encounted is to just put in a
standard surge tank. They are small, cheap and have a bladder.
Install and forget.

Harry K