Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
I've been reading up on basic home wiring. After I few pages I have
one basic question that I need to get a good answer to before I read more. All my reading refers to the black wire as the "hot" wire and the white wire as the "neutral" wire. Polorized plugs force the black wire on the outlet to connect to the black wire on the appliance. The reason all this is supposedly done is because current flows from the black wire in the fuse box to the white wire the neutral bus bar in the fuse box. Now why I may buy this "current flow" for direct current, it seems to run against the concept of alternating current. Can someone set me straight on this topic? What EXACTLY do the terms "hot" and "neutral" mean? Thanks |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
wrote in message oups.com... I've been reading up on basic home wiring. After I few pages I have one basic question that I need to get a good answer to before I read more. All my reading refers to the black wire as the "hot" wire and the white wire as the "neutral" wire. Polorized plugs force the black wire on the outlet to connect to the black wire on the appliance. The reason all this is supposedly done is because current flows from the black wire in the fuse box to the white wire the neutral bus bar in the fuse box. Now why I may buy this "current flow" for direct current, it seems to run against the concept of alternating current. Can someone set me straight on this topic? What EXACTLY do the terms "hot" and "neutral" mean? I was confused about this once myself. Do a google search; I am sure you will find some nice diagrams that explain it better than I can. (Hint: the neutral is always 0v, the hot alternates...) |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
In article .com,
wrote: I've been reading up on basic home wiring. After I few pages I have one basic question that I need to get a good answer to before I read more. All my reading refers to the black wire as the "hot" wire and the white wire as the "neutral" wire. Polorized plugs force the black wire on the outlet to connect to the black wire on the appliance. The reason all this is supposedly done is because current flows from the black wire in the fuse box to the white wire the neutral bus bar in the fuse box. Now why I may buy this "current flow" for direct current, it seems to run against the concept of alternating current. Can someone set me straight on this topic? What EXACTLY do the terms "hot" and "neutral" mean? The "neutral" wire is at ground potential. The "hot" is (usually) 120vac relative to the neutral. The hot doesn't have to be black, although thats the most commonly used color. White must be the neutral. Green must be the ground. Any other color can be used for the hot. True with A.C. the current flow goes back and fourth. Its the voltage relative to neutral that defines the hot. -- Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507 Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67 Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Rich,
Not that I would do this (AND I RECOMMEND NO ONE ELSE DO THIS EITHER), but does that mean that when replacing a switch or an outlet, that I could turn the power back on and touch the NEUTRAL (white) wire and not receive a shock? Wardell ..panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
wrote in message oups.com... Rich, Not that I would do this (AND I RECOMMEND NO ONE ELSE DO THIS EITHER), but does that mean that when replacing a switch or an outlet, that I could turn the power back on and touch the NEUTRAL (white) wire and not receive a shock? If the outlet is wired correctly you could touch the Neutral (usually white) while grounded and not get shocked. The Neutral is suspose to be grounded back at the service entrance/panel box. To answer your question above, the electricity does not actually come out of the black wire and return on the white wire. That is just simple thinking to make it easy to explain the circuit. In most homes in the US there are 3 wires comming in. There are 2 hot wires and one neutral. There are 240 volts across the two Hot wires and 120 volts from the neutral and either hot wire. If only 240 volt devices are used then there is no need for the neuteral wire. If you start adding 120 volt devices , some on one side and some on the other side then the current will be unbalanced on the hot wires and the neuteral will have some current on it. If you could put the same current load on each side of the two circuits then there would again bo no current flow on the neutral wire and it could be disconnected and the devices would continut to work normally. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
wrote in message oups.com... Rich, Not that I would do this (AND I RECOMMEND NO ONE ELSE DO THIS EITHER), but does that mean that when replacing a switch or an outlet, that I could turn the power back on and touch the NEUTRAL (white) wire and not receive a shock? Wardell .panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L On a properly wired system that is working properly you are able to touch the bare/green wire or the white wire and not receive any shock. Only the hot wire, usually black has any shock potential. And please don't try this at home kiddies, as long as you aren't grounded you can handle the hot wire with the juice on. Electricians do it all the time while standing on a fiberglass ladder. You can get a nasty shock changing an outlet live because the ground wire connect to the part of the device you are holding. Please remember that even a 110V circuit can kill you it the right situation. And for the OP: I am not qualified to explain it to you but the term alternating current refers to what happens before the electricity enters your home. There are two generators working in a 60HZ cycle that feed juice to the line. Somehow this permits more juice to flow farther at a lower cost. That is an extremely simplified explanation. But it is about all I can explain. Colbyt |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
wrote in message oups.com... Rich, Not that I would do this (AND I RECOMMEND NO ONE ELSE DO THIS EITHER), but does that mean that when replacing a switch or an outlet, that I could turn the power back on and touch the NEUTRAL (white) wire and not receive a shock? As long as there's nothing connected to the circuit that is drawing power. However, if there's current going through the circuit, anwhere on that particular circuit (wires connected to the same breaker) there's going to be some voltage potential because there's a resistance from that white wire back to the breaker box. Now the voltage is most likely low (less than a volt) so unless you are sticking a white wire in your mouth and the ground wire up your ass, the likely hood is nearly zero that you will feel a shock. The best thing to do is wear rubber bottom sneakers and synthetic gloves if you plan on working on a powered circuit and you are a novice. Wardell .panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"FDR" wrote in
: The best thing to do is wear rubber bottom sneakers and synthetic gloves if you plan on working on a powered circuit and you are a novice. If you're a novice (or anything less than a pro...) TURN OFF THE POWER!!! Brad |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
wrote in message oups.com... Rich, Not that I would do this (AND I RECOMMEND NO ONE ELSE DO THIS EITHER), but does that mean that when replacing a switch or an outlet, that I could turn the power back on and touch the NEUTRAL (white) wire and not receive a shock? Heck, my wife (and millions of others) does it several times a day. The chassis of our stove and dryer are connected to the neutral. Unless the neutral connection has come loose, it is an almost infinitely better ground than the person touching it; so the toucher gets close to 0v. In the situation you describe is even safer; a (presumably open) switch or a unused outlet, you could lick the neutral and get nothing; unless the ground bus has come loose, it is absolutely 0v. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Yes it may be somewhat confusing. As Einstein (100 years ago last month)
said, it's all relative. Try to picture an oscillating wave representing 120VAC. The difference between the top and bottom of the waves is 120 V. Now if we force one side to be grounded the other side must be oscillating between plus 120 V and minus 120 V. But remember there never is more than 120 V relative to ground. On Navy ships all 120 VAC power has no neutral. Each leg is hot and is 60 VAC relative to ground similar to the way 240 VAC in your house is set up. This is for safety since you will only get a 60 V shock between a hot and ground. We always had to check out test gear we took ships to make sure that the neutral was not connected to ground. If you really want to be confused try to understand 3 phase power. Ever notice how all high voltage lines are in sets of three. With three phase power the sum of the power supplied to a load is constant so motors and generators run much more smoothly. wrote in message oups.com... I've been reading up on basic home wiring. After I few pages I have one basic question that I need to get a good answer to before I read more. All my reading refers to the black wire as the "hot" wire and the white wire as the "neutral" wire. Polorized plugs force the black wire on the outlet to connect to the black wire on the appliance. The reason all this is supposedly done is because current flows from the black wire in the fuse box to the white wire the neutral bus bar in the fuse box. Now why I may buy this "current flow" for direct current, it seems to run against the concept of alternating current. Can someone set me straight on this topic? What EXACTLY do the terms "hot" and "neutral" mean? Thanks |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
The best thing to do is wear rubber bottom sneakers and synthetic gloves
if you plan on working on a powered circuit and you are a novice. The first time I tightened the connections on my main breaker I did exactly that, while holding an insulated allen wrench. I knew it was silly, but it was the MAIN BREAKER. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
I think I understand this a little better now thanks to everyone's
responses. Let me restate what I think some people have said plus what else I've managed to google. If I pretend the electron flow was water instead of electrons, then what's happening is that the electric company is pushing and pulling "water" through the black wires at the rate of 60 cycles per second at an energy level of 120 volts, hence this is "hot". The white wire, e.g. "pipe" is connected to a large calm lake, e.g. ground potential. Now If I were to touch the white wire (assuming it was wired correctly to the "calm lake", it's just connected a resevoir of electrons at ground potential so there's no flow. However if I were to touch the black wire and provide a path to ground, then this "water" would be flowing through me, e.g. an electrical shock. Is this at least a reasonable analofy of why black is "hot" and why white is "neutral"? Thanks to everyone for their response. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"Jeff" wrote in message If you really want to be confused try to understand 3 phase power. Ever notice how all high voltage lines are in sets of three. With three phase power the sum of the power supplied to a load is constant so motors and generators run much more smoothly. 3 Phase is really easy to explain. You put a volt meter across any two wires and you get 277 volts. but across the three is 480. Simple math huh? Then there is power factor . . . . . . |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message .. . "Jeff" wrote in message If you really want to be confused try to understand 3 phase power. Ever notice how all high voltage lines are in sets of three. With three phase power the sum of the power supplied to a load is constant so motors and generators run much more smoothly. 3 Phase is really easy to explain. You put a volt meter across any two wires and you get 277 volts. but across the three is 480. Simple math huh? Then there is power factor . . . . . . Any two will get you 480 volts. If wired in the Y configuration and the center is grounded , then you get 277 to ground from any wire. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message Any two will get you 480 volts. If wired in the Y configuration and the center is grounded , then you get 277 to ground from any wire. Oops, that's right of course. 2 x 277 = 480 |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Yes it may be somewhat confusing. As Einstein (100 years ago last month) said, it's all relative. Try to picture an oscillating wave representing 120VAC. The difference between the top and bottom of the waves is 120 V. Now if we force one side to be grounded the other side must be oscillating between plus 120 V and minus 120 V. But remember there never is more than 120 V relative to ground. No, not quite. Single phase oscillates between 169 positive peak and 169 volts negative peak, not 120 Volts. This yields the effective voltage of 120 volts (RMS). RMS voltage is .707 x peak. Peak is 1.414 x RMS. Bob |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message .. . "Jeff" wrote in message If you really want to be confused try to understand 3 phase power. Ever notice how all high voltage lines are in sets of three. With three phase power the sum of the power supplied to a load is constant so motors and generators run much more smoothly. 3 Phase is really easy to explain. You put a volt meter across any two wires and you get 277 volts. but across the three is 480. Simple math huh? Then there is power factor . . . . . . Then there's the whole Y or Delta configuration. Hated those classes in college. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
You got it pretty good.
Don Young wrote in message oups.com... I think I understand this a little better now thanks to everyone's responses. Let me restate what I think some people have said plus what else I've managed to google. If I pretend the electron flow was water instead of electrons, then what's happening is that the electric company is pushing and pulling "water" through the black wires at the rate of 60 cycles per second at an energy level of 120 volts, hence this is "hot". The white wire, e.g. "pipe" is connected to a large calm lake, e.g. ground potential. Now If I were to touch the white wire (assuming it was wired correctly to the "calm lake", it's just connected a resevoir of electrons at ground potential so there's no flow. However if I were to touch the black wire and provide a path to ground, then this "water" would be flowing through me, e.g. an electrical shock. Is this at least a reasonable analofy of why black is "hot" and why white is "neutral"? Thanks to everyone for their response. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Now If I were to touch the white wire (assuming it was wired correctly to the "calm lake", it's just connected a resevoir of electrons at ground potential so there's no flow. However if I were to touch the black wire and provide a path to ground, then this "water" would be flowing through me, e.g. an electrical shock. Not exactly, when the white wire or neutral is part of a circuit, there is "flow", and if you were to cut that neutral wire and get between the two wires, or the live end and ground, there will be flow through you. wrote in message oups.com... I think I understand this a little better now thanks to everyone's responses. Let me restate what I think some people have said plus what else I've managed to google. If I pretend the electron flow was water instead of electrons, then what's happening is that the electric company is pushing and pulling "water" through the black wires at the rate of 60 cycles per second at an energy level of 120 volts, hence this is "hot". The white wire, e.g. "pipe" is connected to a large calm lake, e.g. ground potential. Now If I were to touch the white wire (assuming it was wired correctly to the "calm lake", it's just connected a resevoir of electrons at ground potential so there's no flow. However if I were to touch the black wire and provide a path to ground, then this "water" would be flowing through me, e.g. an electrical shock. Is this at least a reasonable analofy of why black is "hot" and why white is "neutral"? Thanks to everyone for their response. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
In article .com,
wrote: Rich, Not that I would do this (AND I RECOMMEND NO ONE ELSE DO THIS EITHER), but does that mean that when replacing a switch or an outlet, that I could turn the power back on and touch the NEUTRAL (white) wire and not receive a shock? Yes, as long as you are not in contact with a hot line. In fact, if you are careful not be be grounded you can touch the hot wire without a shock. I don't recommend doing this, but I have changed both switches and outlets while they were live. -- Rich Greenberg Marietta, GA, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507 Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67 Canines:Val, Red & Shasta (RIP),Red, husky Owner:Chinook-L Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Not exactly, when the white wire or neutral is part of a circuit, there is "flow", and if you were to cut that neutral wire and get between the two wires, or the live end and ground, there will be flow through you. Certainly, but only because the live end of the white wire is now a hot rather than a neutral. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
No, it has already gone through a resistor. It's a return seeking its
neutral or ground to complete its circuit, and this fella needs to understand that if he gets in between it he's going to get hurt. "Toller" wrote in message ... Not exactly, when the white wire or neutral is part of a circuit, there is "flow", and if you were to cut that neutral wire and get between the two wires, or the live end and ground, there will be flow through you. Certainly, but only because the live end of the white wire is now a hot rather than a neutral. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Polarized plugs are a safety feature, especially with something like a lamp.
This connects the "hot" wire to the center connection where the bulb screws in. When replacing a light bulb, it is possible you could accidentally touch the metal ring while unscrewing the bulb. If the metal ring is connected to neutral (because of the polarized plug), then you will not get shocked. Also the polarized plug will connect to an appliance on/off switch. So when the appliance is switched off, it is shutting off the hot. So say something like a toaster which has a switch which only disconnects one wire. It is best if the wire the switch is disconnecting is the hot wire! Otherwise hot would be connected to the heating elements even when the toaster was off, and a kid might stick a knife or hand inside the toaster, then be shocked. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... No, it has already gone through a resistor. It's a return seeking its neutral or ground to complete its circuit, and this fella needs to understand that if he gets in between it he's going to get hurt. Sure, it has been through a resistor (or at least a load of some kind...) so why isn't it still a hot? Take a 240v motor. It has three wires; 2 hots and a neutral. A hot goes to a winding and then to the neutral. When it comes off the winding it is not a neutral, it is simply a hot that has gone through the winding. This is hair splitting; we certainly agree that the wire, whatever it is called, is potentially dangerous. But, I think it is still properly called a hot. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Take a 240v motor. It has three wires; 2 hots and a neutral. A hot goes
to a winding and then to the neutral. When it comes off the winding it is not a neutral, it is simply a hot that has gone through the winding. This is hair splitting; we certainly agree that the wire, whatever it is called, is potentially dangerous. But, I think it is still properly called a hot. A normal 240 volt motor only has 2 'hot' wires. There is no neutral. Both of the wires are 120 volts hot to ground in a normal home in the US. It may (should) have a ground wire going to its frame. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
According to RBM rbm2(remove :
No, it has already gone through a resistor. It's a return seeking its neutral or ground to complete its circuit, and this fella needs to understand that if he gets in between it he's going to get hurt. Right. Still, for all intents and purposes it is a hot. You're not going to find a significant difference between the lethality or voltage of a direct-from-panel hot, and one that's gone through a lightbulb on the way (if it's disconnected from neutral). -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
I know Chris, I'm just trying to impress that on the OP. Reading some of his
questions and responses, I just don't want him to be believing that neutrals are always benign "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... According to RBM rbm2(remove : No, it has already gone through a resistor. It's a return seeking its neutral or ground to complete its circuit, and this fella needs to understand that if he gets in between it he's going to get hurt. Right. Still, for all intents and purposes it is a hot. You're not going to find a significant difference between the lethality or voltage of a direct-from-panel hot, and one that's gone through a lightbulb on the way (if it's disconnected from neutral). -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... I just love this group when you guys get in a spirited discussion about something so far removed from a direct answer to the question. Too much schooling I guess. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
Nothing silly about being safe.
-- Christopher A. Young Do good work. It's longer in the short run but shorter in the long run. .. .. "Toller" wrote in message ... The best thing to do is wear rubber bottom sneakers and synthetic gloves if you plan on working on a powered circuit and you are a novice. The first time I tightened the connections on my main breaker I did exactly that, while holding an insulated allen wrench. I knew it was silly, but it was the MAIN BREAKER. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Basic Home Electrical Question
|
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Electrical Permit Question | Home Repair | |||
Electrical question | Home Repair | |||
Electrical question about a switch | Woodworking | |||
Electrical Panel Question | Home Repair | |||
New Electrical Regs | UK diy |