Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this permit, I have
to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4 chapters of the NEC
code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a closed book exam. They are
kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes for $90 but offer no study guide
etc... for me to use. Should I fail the exam, I can re-take in no less than
30 days. Has anyone got any advice on how to prepare for such a thing (ie.
just what are the 4 chapters in the Code Book?). I really don't want to
plonk down $90 so I can run 20 ft. of conduit (yeah, I'm being cheap!). I
suppose I can take it and then I'll know what sort of material they are
covering but I really don't want to wait a month to be able to get this
done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this permit, I have
to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4 chapters of the NEC
code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a closed book exam. They are
kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes for $90 but offer no study guide
etc... for me to use. Should I fail the exam, I can re-take in no less than
30 days. Has anyone got any advice on how to prepare for such a thing (ie.
just what are the 4 chapters in the Code Book?). I really don't want to
plonk down $90 so I can run 20 ft. of conduit (yeah, I'm being cheap!). I
suppose I can take it and then I'll know what sort of material they are
covering but I really don't want to wait a month to be able to get this
done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc


See if your local library has the books.

Jim

You could buy exam preparatory books from Mike Holt . This would probably
add another fifty bucks to your project. If I were in your shoes, I would
just hire someone. That would be money well spent

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
...
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence.
I intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off
the wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the
electrical portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this
permit, I have to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4
chapters of the NEC code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a
closed book exam. They are kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes
for $90 but offer no study guide etc... for me to use. Should I fail the
exam, I can re-take in no less than 30 days. Has anyone got any advice
on how to prepare for such a thing (ie. just what are the 4 chapters in
the Code Book?). I really don't want to plonk down $90 so I can run 20
ft. of conduit (yeah, I'm being cheap!). I suppose I can take it and
then I'll know what sort of material they are covering but I really don't
want to wait a month to be able to get this done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc


See if your local library has the books.

Jim

I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I'd save a considerable amount over
hiring someone.
The permit is inexpensive, materials won't be much, it's all my own labor.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
If I were in your shoes, I would just hire someone. That would be money
well spent

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I'd save a considerable amount
over
hiring someone.
The permit is inexpensive, materials won't be much, it's all my own labor.


I think a law like that is designed to persuade you to do just that......
hire someone.

I wonder if the electrical systems in NM are safer because even homeowners
must be able to interpret the NEC to do any permit work.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this permit, I have
to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4 chapters of the NEC
code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a closed book exam. They are
kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes for $90 but offer no study guide
etc... for me to use. Should I fail the exam, I can re-take in no less than
30 days. Has anyone got any advice on how to prepare for such a thing (ie.
just what are the 4 chapters in the Code Book?). I really don't want to
plonk down $90 so I can run 20 ft. of conduit (yeah, I'm being cheap!). I
suppose I can take it and then I'll know what sort of material they are
covering but I really don't want to wait a month to be able to get this
done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc




Is there an electrical outlet nearby? Hang the fixture from hooks (do
not permanently attach them to the wall) and plug them into an extension
cord. You can redo them later; this is just to say FU to the inspector
because you won't need a permit for it. Or maybe you can use kerosene
lamps. You can redo it later after they sign off on the structural work
and nobody is looking.

I ordinarily would not recommend doing the work without a permit, but is
sounds like the permit system there is designed to screw homeowners, and
I doubt anybody can pass their test on the second try (if you do pass,
they'll say you cheated.) The reason for the 30 days until you can take
the test again is so you'll hire out the work to one of their buddies.

Someone else said go to the library to get last years code book. Good idea.

If they have adopted the NEC into law, they need to have a copy
available for reference. You won't be able to take it home but you
should be able to demand to read it.

Best regards,
Bob

Yeah, the corruption in this state is unbearable. No doubt I'll get a few
recommendations for hiring out the work from the folks at the testing center
and they'll all know of a "great contractor"!

I won't be putting up something cheesy so I think I'll pass on the extension
cords . Interestingly enough, they require no permit for the building
of the wall.
The only permit I'll need is the electrical and to be honest, I wasn't aware
I couldn't
extend a circuit without a permit until now. Once I have the permit, I'll
have to
grandfather a few other bits I've already done (added a circuit and
subpanel).

Ahh the beauracracy of it all. I suppose it's all meant to keep us safe
though.
Cheers,
cc
ps. hadn't thought of the library. Do those still exist with the internet
in full swing? Just kidding....



I'll pass the exam
"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Is there an electrical outlet nearby? Hang the fixture from hooks (do not
permanently attach them to the wall) and plug them into an extension cord.
You can redo them later; this is just to say FU to the inspector because
you won't need a permit for it. Or maybe you can use kerosene lamps. You
can redo it later after they sign off on the structural work and nobody is
looking.

I ordinarily would not recommend doing the work without a permit, but is
sounds like the permit system there is designed to screw homeowners, and I
doubt anybody can pass their test on the second try (if you do pass,
they'll say you cheated.) The reason for the 30 days until you can take
the test again is so you'll hire out the work to one of their buddies.

Someone else said go to the library to get last years code book. Good
idea.

If they have adopted the NEC into law, they need to have a copy available
for reference. You won't be able to take it home but you should be able
to demand to read it.

Best regards,
Bob

Olaf ) said...

[regarding NM requirement of testing for an electrical permit]

I wonder if the electrical systems in NM are safer because even homeowners
must be able to interpret the NEC to do any permit work.

I wonder if the electrical systems in NM are LESS safe because the permit
requirements scare enough off from going that route and just wing it with
no inspector ever looking at it to make sure it complies with code.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

James "Cubby" Culbertson writes:

I suppose it's all meant to keep us safe though.

No, it is primarily designed to keep the trade employed at above-market
prices. Any safety issues are a secondary effect. Look at who lobbies for
these types of laws: it isn't the homeowners.

I'm not sure that this "test" is not just a mechanism to dissuade homeowners
from doing their own work, otherwise, they could offer a course on basic
wiring. I'm a licensed electrical contractor in NY and I can tell you first
hand, there can be an awful lot of below board shenanigans pulled by
bureaucrats"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I'd save a considerable amount
over hiring someone.
The permit is inexpensive, materials won't be much, it's all my own labor.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
If I were in your shoes, I would just hire someone. That would be money
well spent

Check with the local inspector and/or the local library on availability of
current NEC code book to loan..
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this permit, I
have to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4 chapters of
the NEC code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a closed book exam.
They are kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes for $90 but offer no
study guide etc... for me to use. Should I fail the exam, I can re-take
in no less than 30 days. Has anyone got any advice on how to prepare for
such a thing (ie. just what are the 4 chapters in the Code Book?). I
really don't want to plonk down $90 so I can run 20 ft. of conduit (yeah,
I'm being cheap!). I suppose I can take it and then I'll know what sort
of material they are covering but I really don't want to wait a month to
be able to get this done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc

CC,

So, the local home owners and area farmers must pass a test before they
can do wiring. Look in the catalog of your local vocational/technical
school, they will certainly offer a course in this. You might check with the
agricultural extension service also, since local farmers certainly do a lot
of wiring. I realize that you don't want to wait but to do it right I think
you'll need to wait.
As others have pointed, out this exam and permit system encourages
illicit wiring, not that I'm suggesting that you do this.

Good luck,
Dave M

Keep the government out of it. Just do the work and get on with life. This
is government run amok, again. If you do all this garbage its just another
fund-raiser just because they don't tax you enough already. HA. Keep you
money, do the work, of course ensure you are doing it safely and move on.

Good luck

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this permit, I
have to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4 chapters of
the NEC code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a closed book exam.
They are kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes for $90 but offer no
study guide etc... for me to use. Should I fail the exam, I can re-take
in no less than 30 days. Has anyone got any advice on how to prepare for
such a thing (ie. just what are the 4 chapters in the Code Book?). I
really don't want to plonk down $90 so I can run 20 ft. of conduit (yeah,
I'm being cheap!). I suppose I can take it and then I'll know what sort
of material they are covering but I really don't want to wait a month to
be able to get this done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc

The nfpa web site has books you can order. Residential wiring is a
good one, it reads like classroom textbook, but it only references the
NEC. You can find that in the library. I have the 1999 version, time
to upgrade myself to 2005 versions.

Another good one is the inspector's checklist, also references the NEC.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose). To get this permit, I have
to pass a small exam. They describe it as "the first 4 chapters of the NEC
code" and the "NM Electrical code". This is a closed book exam. They are
kind enough to sell me the NEC and NM Codes for $90 but offer no study guide
etc... for me to use. Should I fail the exam, I can re-take in no less than
30 days. Has anyone got any advice on how to prepare for such a thing (ie.
just what are the 4 chapters in the Code Book?). I really don't want to
plonk down $90 so I can run 20 ft. of conduit (yeah, I'm being cheap!). I
suppose I can take it and then I'll know what sort of material they are
covering but I really don't want to wait a month to be able to get this
done.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
cc

That's more like it. It's not well publicized until you call them to ask
(and that was a feat in itself...getting someone to return a call/email).
I can guarantee that a large percentage of "added circuits, additional
lights, etc.." are done with no permit in hand. For me though, I think I'll
go through the rig-a-ma-roll of staying legal if for no other reason than to
insure a possible claim against my homeowner's insurance doesn't get dropped
if heaven forbid, something should happen.
Cheers,
cc

"Calvin Henry-Cotnam" wrote in message
...
Olaf ) said...

[regarding NM requirement of testing for an electrical permit]

I wonder if the electrical systems in NM are safer because even homeowners
must be able to interpret the NEC to do any permit work.

I wonder if the electrical systems in NM are LESS safe because the permit
requirements scare enough off from going that route and just wing it with
no inspector ever looking at it to make sure it complies with code.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence. I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose).

Do "they" require a permit to just bury some plastic conduit inside the wall
and put in some plastic boxes (without wires)? If not, just do that. You
can build your wall and run wires as needed.

Andy writes:

What you are describing is simple to do. Your insurance will only
have a problem
with your own work if THAT is the reason for a fire and that
unacceptable procedures
were used. They won't fail to pay a claim unless your negligence
caused the
problem.....

So, if you know how to do the work, I think you should get on with
it, since it is
a simple task... However, if you don't know how to do the work,
reading over the
NEC and asking questions of the guy at Home Depot can't hurt a bit.
Think of it
as an opportunity to learn a few things you haven't thought of....

I realize that your focus is on completing your project and you
probably don't want
to stop and pick up another skill before continuing..... Have patience.
Set your
project back a month or so and learn about this stuff. It's fairly
interesting, and will
serve you well for the rest of your life. In the process, you may even
discover that
you want to hire the work done, even if you understand how to do it
yourself. Sometimes
that happens with stuff like "fishing for wires inside walls", and
"digging trenches
24 inches deep and installing a ground fault interrupter". Sometimes,
it just ain't
worth the hassle.....

But good luck on your project. It seems to me that the local unions
have gotten another
law passed to screw the homeowner....

In MY area, any outside work, regardless of the type, MUST be done by
a "master
electrician". Outside extension cords MUST be type "sj". etc
etc......

...... unfortunately, I am not aware of these laws, passed in a town
several hundred
miles away, and will innocently do the job myself, even though I am
only a
registered EE and have been doing this stuff for 40 years...... I sure
hope I don't
go to jail.....

........ on the other hand, some of that good Texas jail food and a
sweet cellmate
named "Big Pancho" may be just what is needed to put a rebel like
myself
in line (grin) ....

Andy

... and asking questions of the guy at Home Depot can't hurt a bit.

Um. Do you really... oh nevermind. And while you are at it, you might
as well ask the lady at the hair salon too.

-K

According to kevin :
... and asking questions of the guy at Home Depot can't hurt a bit.

Um. Do you really... oh nevermind. And while you are at it, you might
as well ask the lady at the hair salon too.

Maybe it's unique to Canada, maybe unique to our local HDs, but the
floor staff at our HD are extremely knowledgeable. The electrical
and plumbing sections each have a list of the professional credentials
of 4 or 5 floor staff (ie: a master plumber with 25+ years of experience),
and at least one is always available.

As a plumber we hired explained, many older trademen work for HD
a few days a week to guarantee a minimum take-home, and/or some of
them have just decided that slugging around HWTs or climbing down
into well pits is no longer what they're interested in.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On 27-May-2005, "Andy" wrote:

However, if you don't know how to do the work,
reading over the
NEC and asking questions of the guy at Home Depot can't hurt a bit.

I would never take advice from a home depot clerk especially regarding
electrical. You have no idea what their level of experience and working as
a hardware clerk somewhat trains you in sounding convincing even if you have
no real idea what you are talking about.

Stick with the books or someone you know is knowledgeable.

"But that's what the guy at home depot told me to do" isn't gonna cut much
ice if someone gets hurt.

you can get good advice in this group but you must raise your level of
knowledge to the point where you can smell the bs if it appears.

ml

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to kevin :
... and asking questions of the guy at Home Depot can't hurt a bit.

Um. Do you really... oh nevermind. And while you are at it, you might
as well ask the lady at the hair salon too.

Maybe it's unique to Canada, maybe unique to our local HDs, but the
floor staff at our HD are extremely knowledgeable. The electrical
and plumbing sections each have a list of the professional credentials
of 4 or 5 floor staff (ie: a master plumber with 25+ years of experience),
and at least one is always available.
....

Sounds pretty much of a local "takes your chances" scenario to me...been
in HD's halfway across the US and have yet to find one that has that
level of expertise displayed. Run across a few individuals here or
there that have seemed pretty good, but far more just employees off the
street than anything else. Department managers tend to be reasonably
knowledgable of product, but that doesn't necessarily translate into
trade or regulation expertise.

The requirement or permit comes when running the wires. Adding to an
existing circuit or even adding
a new one requires this "permit". It's ridiculous and as I said, I didn't
know of this requirement before installing
my subpanel and in floor receptacle. Ahh the beauracracy of it all...
Cheers,
cc

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya Folks,
Getting everything in order to build a courtyard wall at my residence.
I
intend to extend a lighting circuit and hang a couple of fixtures off the
wall. The State of NM requires me to get a permit for the electrical
portion of the work (as they should I suppose).

Do "they" require a permit to just bury some plastic conduit inside the
wall
and put in some plastic boxes (without wires)? If not, just do that.
You
can build your wall and run wires as needed.

Andy ) said...

Your insurance will only have a problem
with your own work if THAT is the reason for a fire and that
unacceptable procedures were used. They won't fail to pay a claim unless
your negligence caused the problem.....

Not necessarily -- if an insurance company can find a way to get out of a
claim, or at least to reduce it, they will.

Let's suppose that you purchase a roll of Romex that has a small defect
in it somewhere. Not very likely to happen, but let's say there is a small
section where one of the conductors is 40% narrower than spec.

Now let's suppose you happen to use that section on a circuit that has
a fairly heavy load on it (pushing the 80% limit for several hours at
a time). Now suppose that this defect, under a heavy load for a long
duration, overheats and starts a fire.

Should your insurance company find out that this circuit was installed
without a permit, what are the chance they will deny the claim? In fact,
even if they simply found out that *ANY* wiring in the home was done
without a permit, there is a good chance the claim will be denied.

Admitedly, this scenario involves a lot of "what ifs", and the part about
the insurance company "finding out" about the non-permit may be pretty
dubious, but does anybody really want to take the chance. Even if they end
up paying, it might be six months or a year later than otherwise.

If your work passed inspection, the insurance company loses any chance
to deny the claim due to the electrical work - case closed.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Chris Lewis ) said...

Maybe it's unique to Canada, maybe unique to our local HDs, but the
floor staff at our HD are extremely knowledgeable. The electrical
and plumbing sections each have a list of the professional credentials
of 4 or 5 floor staff (ie: a master plumber with 25+ years of experience),
and at least one is always available.

I agree that a lot of the people at many of the HDs near us are quite
knowledgeable.

My only complaint with this is that if I need something off the top of a
shelf (i.e.: I need someone who's only skill is to climb a ladder!), I
have to wait 20-30 minutes while the "expert" employees have to field
a bunch of questions, many of which are well answered by the many how-to
books that can be bought at HD.

Alas, I have learned the secret: move a ladder to where you need it and
start climbing it. It is amazing how fast someone will be there to get
the item down for you! ;-)

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Andy ) said...

Your insurance will only have a problem
with your own work if THAT is the reason for a fire and that
unacceptable procedures were used. They won't fail to pay a claim unless
your negligence caused the problem.....


Not necessarily -- if an insurance company can find a way to get out of a
claim, or at least to reduce it, they will.

Let's suppose that you purchase a roll of Romex that has a small defect
in it somewhere. Not very likely to happen, but let's say there is a small
section where one of the conductors is 40% narrower than spec.

Now let's suppose you happen to use that section on a circuit that has
a fairly heavy load on it (pushing the 80% limit for several hours at
a time). Now suppose that this defect, under a heavy load for a long
duration, overheats and starts a fire.

Should your insurance company find out that this circuit was installed
without a permit, what are the chance they will deny the claim? In fact,
even if they simply found out that *ANY* wiring in the home was done
without a permit, there is a good chance the claim will be denied.

Admitedly, this scenario involves a lot of "what ifs", and the part about
the insurance company "finding out" about the non-permit may be pretty
dubious, but does anybody really want to take the chance. Even if they end
up paying, it might be six months or a year later than otherwise.

If your work passed inspection, the insurance company loses any chance
to deny the claim due to the electrical work - case closed.

I have worked in fire and rescue for over thirty years and in that time
I was involved in two declined claims. In both cases it was the
homeowners own action that caused the fire. In order to breach the
contract the insureds own action must be the cause of the loss a
manufacturers defect would not be enough. Most state insurance
commissioners take a very dim view of refusing claims and no carrier
will do it lightly. I'm not saying that the insurance carrier will
never refuse a claim but in thirty pluss years of service and thousands
of fires with literally dozens caused by home owner action I have only
heard of two refused claims. In both cases the insurer had an open and
shut case and the home owners action was unlawful per se.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.