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DANGER: RADON
Can anyone recommend any cheapo DIY ideas on how to exhaust heat from
an attic in a house? unlike some of the folks here, who are forgetting a very important point, let me remind you of something: many places in the USA have high RADON levels (RADON, a colorless, odorless gas, is the 2nd leading cause of lung cancer, after smoking) many of the solutions that are typically presented in this group involve exhausting attic heat via a fan, turbine, etc. most of these are "negative pressure" solutions, i.e. they suck air out in order to exhaust the unwanted heat this will cause RADON to be sucked IN to your home from the ground I suggest the following two ideas which are at least as effective and will not introduce any RADON: suggestions for hot attics: 1. a positive pressure solution (i.e. fan blows into attic and out a vent, rather than sucking air out and RADON in) 2. even better is a white roof, studies have shown that a white colored roof is 7 times as efficient for eliminating attic heat than any vent, fan, or turbine system YFH |
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#2
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"Yeung Fun Ho" wrote in message suggestions for hot attics: 1. a positive pressure solution (i.e. fan blows into attic and out a vent, rather than sucking air out and RADON in) Agree with that. Attic venting shold be independent of the house unless you are taling a whole house fan. OTOH, I'm not convinced radon is the threat some make it out to be. 2. even better is a white roof, studies have shown that a white colored roof is 7 times as efficient for eliminating attic heat than any vent, fan, or turbine system Makes a lot of sense in hot climates, but in the winter, it is not a savings here. |
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#4
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Yeung Fun Ho wrote:
Can anyone recommend any cheapo DIY ideas on how to exhaust heat from an attic in a house? unlike some of the folks here, who are forgetting a very important point, let me remind you of something: many places in the USA have high RADON levels (RADON, a colorless, odorless gas, is the 2nd leading cause of lung cancer, after smoking) many of the solutions that are typically presented in this group involve exhausting attic heat via a fan, turbine, etc. True, but many places have no problem with radon. Besides, the solution is generally simple and inexpensive. (Of course there are "fixers" who will insist that very expensive solutions are necessary). Before anyone gets excited, check with local health or other organizations for radon in the local soils. most of these are "negative pressure" solutions, i.e. they suck air out in order to exhaust the unwanted heat this will cause RADON to be sucked IN to your home from the ground Almost any attic ventilation solution requires air inlets and outlets. A fan that blows out requires air inlets, either openings in the end gables or openings in the soffits. As a result, very little negative pressure will be developed. In any case, negative pressure in the attic won't have any effect on Radon in the house unless the attic is tied to the rest of the house, the basement, or the crawlspace and that isn't the case in most houses (it may be the case with a whole house fan). For radon to be a problem, radon has to infiltrate the house from the soil. That may occur from a basement or crawl space, but not from an attic. |
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#5
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George,
I generally agree with you. However, I hear from some some researchers that is is often the case that there are connecting paths up through the house structure. YFH might want to look at the Building Science Corporation web site. TB |
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#6
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"Main Man" wrote in message oups.com... See here http://www.hpa.org.uk/radiation/radon/index.htm They state: What Are the Effects of Radon? Miners exposed to high radon levels have been found to run an increased risk of lung cancer. Radon in the home also presents a risk, but generally at a lower level. Thus my earlier comment. I think it may be overblown in the home. |
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#7
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The important point is that radon is a danger to you or your pets
only if you breath it. If you are breathing it, then your risk level is dependent upon the radon level in the air that you are breathing and the length of time that you are exposed. Pets, especially cats, are often at the greatest risk since in some homes they spend a lot of time at ground level in the basement. A person who spends much of the day in a basement home office and a lot of free time watching his large screen basement TV may also be at relatively great risk. Radon is 9 times heavier than air and it tends to stay low in the basement. Basement venting can greatly reduce radon levels. Negative pressures in the house greatly increase radon infiltration into the basement and subsequent radon movement up to the living areas. Exhaust fans are obvious culprits. Air movement such as that created by the furnace blower fan also increases the spread of radon through the house. Cracks in basement foundations, cracks in basement floors and openings such as sump pump pits all increase infiltration. Better than guessing, buy an inexpensive radon test kit, use it correctly in your basement, and then send it to the lab. If the test results indicate high radon levels, then buy a couple more test kits and test your living areas. I have a friend whose basement tested at 37 microcuries - a level considered rather dangerous. But the upper levels of the house have acceptable levels of radon and the family is relatively unconcerned since the basement is just a place to house the furnace, water heater, washer, dryer and a lot of junk. They feel secure with just simple steps such as cracking open a window when an exhaust fan is running, opening basement windows on occasion for some basement cross ventilation, opening living area windows briefly once in a while during the winter, etc. Like cigarette smoking, radon can be very dangerous and can present a greatly increased RISK of cancer. Like second-hand smoke, radon dangers can be greatly exaggerated. Gideon |
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#8
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#9
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:04:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair DANGER:
RADON "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: They state: What Are the Effects of Radon? Miners exposed to high radon levels have been found to run an increased risk of lung cancer. Radon in the home also presents a risk, but generally at a lower level. These studies were done in the 1950s and 1960s. Most (if not all) of the miners where also heavy smokers. So many were smokers, that they couldn't get a significant sample if they excluded smokers, so they had to keep them in the sample. They compared the lung cancer rate of the miners/smokers to the lung cancer rate of smokers-only. (They did not consider the amount of smoking. I've never seen stats, but my observations of miners as a group is that they are far heavier smokers than the populaton at large.) The difference was very small, and many researchers judged it to be statistically insignificant and the studies non-conclusive. That was judged to be an unacceptable and imprudent conclusion by Health Physics community at the time, so a second committee was chosen to review the results and *they* concluded that the differences while indeed small, "might" be significant. That became the official party line in the Health Physics community whose job and livelihood was managing radiation risk. It just wouldn't do to find some natural background radiation levels to be "safe" and without risk. That has been the party line ever since but was pretty much ignored and forgotten since the conclusions were so contrary human experience, observation and common sense. Then in the 1990s when our culture was running out of hysteria-of-the-month scares (global warming, nuclear winter, no more water, etc.) this old bogeyman was resurrected. It's perfect: you can't see it, can't feel it, can't smell it, can't sense it, and can't find a single person that was effected by it. You can only say that of 100,000 people exposed to it, *according to our models and predictions* x-people surely must have been effected. What the HP community does not say is that the predictive models were designed *with the assumption* that there was an effect. Well, a close relative of mine owns a radon testing service, so I hope that in the future they require radon testing & mitigation as a requirement of all home sales. If you can't get people to use common sense, you might as well accommodate and profit from their fears :-) -- To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address. |
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#10
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"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... wrote: George, I generally agree with you. However, I hear from some some researchers that is is often the case that there are connecting paths up through the house structure. YFH might want to look at the Building Science Corporation web site. TB True, with balloon framing used in old houses. I would worry more about fires than Radon with such construction. Not true with modern house construction. Holes for water vent, gas furnace and water heater chimneys go from basement to roof. |
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#11
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wrote in message ... Radon - The biggest scam of the 20th century. They say "you can't see it, but it will kill you". The reason you cant see it, is because there is no such thing as radon, except in the minds of scammers that want your money to do alot of useless crap to your house at their gain. However, if you believe in radon, then you must also believe in the tooth fairy. Well, I personally know the tooth fairy, and if you send me $1000, I will send you her autographed photo, and if you include one of your gold capped teeth along with your $1000 check, she will also send you a silver dollar with a picture of a naked face on it. 2nd biggest scam. #1 scan? FREON!!!!!! There has never been a SCIENTIFIC study tying freon to ozone depletion. There has never been any scientific study that conclusively shows ANY ozone depletion. The newspapers have CLAIMED a connection, but never gave any scientific studies which proved or even indicated it. What they showed was guesses that it MIGHT deplete the ozone. |
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#12
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And if there is no basement?
Gideon wrote: The important point is that radon is a danger to you or your pets only if you breath it. If you are breathing it, then your risk level is dependent upon the radon level in the air that you are breathing and the length of time that you are exposed. Pets, especially cats, are often at the greatest risk since in some homes they spend a lot of time at ground level in the basement. A person who spends much of the day in a basement home office and a lot of free time watching his large screen basement TV may also be at relatively great risk. Radon is 9 times heavier than air and it tends to stay low in the basement. Basement venting can greatly reduce radon levels. Negative pressures in the house greatly increase radon infiltration into the basement and subsequent radon movement up to the living areas. Exhaust fans are obvious culprits. Air movement such as that created by the furnace blower fan also increases the spread of radon through the house. Cracks in basement foundations, cracks in basement floors and openings such as sump pump pits all increase infiltration. Better than guessing, buy an inexpensive radon test kit, use it correctly in your basement, and then send it to the lab. If the test results indicate high radon levels, then buy a couple more test kits and test your living areas. I have a friend whose basement tested at 37 microcuries - a level considered rather dangerous. But the upper levels of the house have acceptable levels of radon and the family is relatively unconcerned since the basement is just a place to house the furnace, water heater, washer, dryer and a lot of junk. They feel secure with just simple steps such as cracking open a window when an exhaust fan is running, opening basement windows on occasion for some basement cross ventilation, opening living area windows briefly once in a while during the winter, etc. Like cigarette smoking, radon can be very dangerous and can present a greatly increased RISK of cancer. Like second-hand smoke, radon dangers can be greatly exaggerated. Gideon |
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#13
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I can dig it, baby ......
On 16 Jul 2005 18:25:25 EDT, Vicki Szaszvari wrote: And if there is no basement? Gideon wrote: The important point is that radon is a danger to you or your pets only if you breath it. If you are breathing it, then your risk level is dependent upon the radon level in the air that you are breathing and the length of time that you are exposed. Pets, especially cats, are often at the greatest risk since in some homes they spend a lot of time at ground level in the basement. A person who spends much of the day in a basement home office and a lot of free time watching his large screen basement TV may also be at relatively great risk. Radon is 9 times heavier than air and it tends to stay low in the basement. Basement venting can greatly reduce radon levels. Negative pressures in the house greatly increase radon infiltration into the basement and subsequent radon movement up to the living areas. Exhaust fans are obvious culprits. Air movement such as that created by the furnace blower fan also increases the spread of radon through the house. Cracks in basement foundations, cracks in basement floors and openings such as sump pump pits all increase infiltration. Better than guessing, buy an inexpensive radon test kit, use it correctly in your basement, and then send it to the lab. If the test results indicate high radon levels, then buy a couple more test kits and test your living areas. I have a friend whose basement tested at 37 microcuries - a level considered rather dangerous. But the upper levels of the house have acceptable levels of radon and the family is relatively unconcerned since the basement is just a place to house the furnace, water heater, washer, dryer and a lot of junk. They feel secure with just simple steps such as cracking open a window when an exhaust fan is running, opening basement windows on occasion for some basement cross ventilation, opening living area windows briefly once in a while during the winter, etc. Like cigarette smoking, radon can be very dangerous and can present a greatly increased RISK of cancer. Like second-hand smoke, radon dangers can be greatly exaggerated. Gideon Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#14
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#15
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On 16 Jul 2005 18:30:14 EDT, Vicki Szaszvari
wrote: wrote: Radon - The biggest scam of the 20th century. They say "you can't see it, but it will kill you". The reason you cant see it, is because there is no such thing as radon, except in the minds of scammers that want your money to do alot of useless crap to your house at their gain. However, if you believe in radon, then you must also believe in the tooth fairy. Well, I personally know the tooth fairy, and if you send me $1000, I will send you her autographed photo, and if you include one of your gold capped teeth along with your $1000 check, she will also send you a silver dollar with a picture of a naked face on it. I must believe in the Tooth Fairy because a cousin and his wife both died of lung cancer -- judged to be due to radon in their home. Rural North Dakota farmers who didn't smoke. I understand you can't hear Tomahawk Cruise missiles coming, either, but I believe they exist :-) BTW - you never hear the bullet that kills you. The sound gets there after you meet Jesus. Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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#16
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Mike Dobony wrote: 2nd biggest scam. #1 scan? FREON!!!!!! There has never been a SCIENTIFIC study tying freon to ozone depletion. There has never been any scientific study that conclusively shows ANY ozone depletion. The newspapers have CLAIMED a connection, but never gave any scientific studies which proved or even indicated it. What they showed was guesses that it MIGHT deplete the ozone. Wrong, Freon breath. You need to read something published in the past decade, or get out of the house more often. You probably still believe the whole thing was fabricated by DuPont because of their R-12 patent (which, incidentally, ran out more than 50 years ago.) |
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#18
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In alt.hvac on Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:14:42 -0500 "Mike Dobony"
posted: "George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... wrote: George, I generally agree with you. However, I hear from some some researchers that is is often the case that there are connecting paths up through the house structure. YFH might want to look at the Building Science Corporation web site. TB True, with balloon framing used in old houses. I would worry more about fires than Radon with such construction. Not true with modern house construction. Holes for water vent, gas furnace and water heater chimneys go from basement to roof. Yeah, in another thread I mentioned my forced air heating duct which goes up my stack to the second. The oil furnace chimney is either in the stack too or right next to it. At the level of the first-floor ceiling or second floor floor, there is a piece of plywood covering the stack, with holes for whatever goes up there. I don't recall how well fitted the holes were to the duct etc. Do all houses have the stack closed like this? When I wanted to run another electric line, and phone lines and burglar alarm lines, even with my 6 foot drill bit and a 12 inch extension, it was hard to drill the hole. Still, I don't think attic ventilation draws from the basement when their are easier places to draw from, and even if there is radon in the area, that doesn't mean it gets into the basement. There has to be a crack in the foundation and in the right place. Meirman -- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary. |
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#19
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#20
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:18:14 -0500, Vic Dura
wrote: On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:04:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair DANGER: RADON "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: They state: What Are the Effects of Radon? Miners exposed to high radon levels have been found to run an increased risk of lung cancer. Radon in the home also presents a risk, but generally at a lower level. These studies were done in the 1950s and 1960s. Most (if not all) of the miners where also heavy smokers. So many were smokers, that they couldn't get a significant sample if they excluded smokers, so they had to keep them in the sample. They compared the lung cancer rate of the miners/smokers to the lung cancer rate of smokers-only. (They did not consider the amount of smoking. I've never seen stats, but my observations of miners as a group is that they are far heavier smokers than the populaton at large.) The difference was very small, and many researchers judged it to be statistically insignificant and the studies non-conclusive. Where have you been? They didn't stop studying radon in the 60s. If studies are non-conclusive, it means they (or the analyses) are "non-conclusive," not that it's the end of the story. "Statistically insignificant" can have as much to do with the design of a study as with biological reality. Do a simple literature search and take note of studies as recent as this year; you're going to be surprized that the conclusions have changed. The issue is not resolved by any means, particularly with dosage, length of exposure (eg. lifetime risk of exposed children vs. risk of adults exposed later in life), and degree of risk. But the fact that it's a difficult issue to study doesn't mean that there is no danger. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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#21
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Yes it is IMPORTANT to make sur there are no open RETURN ducts in your
basement. These will casue negative pressure in the basment that can pull radon in and distribute it in your home. Close off all RETURN ducts in the basment and open one output duct in the basment to pressurize the basmement a little. With the furnace blower running, stand at the door to the basement with the door open a crack, if you feel air being pulled into the basement from the upstairs, you have an open return duct and need to close it. Mark |
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#22
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Buy a better house?
================== Vicki Szaszvari wrote in message ... And if there is no basement? |
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#23
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Vicki Szaszvari wrote Wrong, Freon breath. You need to read something published in the past decade, or get out of the house more often. You probably still believe the whole thing was fabricated by DuPont because of their R-12 patent (which, incidentally, ran out more than 50 years ago.) ========================== Poor logic. The important questions a 1) Who holds the patent on R134a? (hint - DuPont) 2) Who holds the patent on R12? (hint - Not DuPont) 3) Who holds the patents on propane, isobutane and other organic refrigerants? (hint - Not DuPont) Think a bit about those answers and you'll possibly understand DuPont's motivations in guiding the feds and the global community in banning inexpensive and very effective refrigerants that DuPont can't monopolize. DuPont wasn't particularly concerned about any global health issues back around 1928 when it had all of us by the short & curlies with its patent on R-12. DuPont has never been concerned about anything except DuPont's P&L statement. Of course the marginally sentient will claim that our leaders in Washington aren't dumb enough to not recognize a corporation acting out of self-interest. But those with an ounce of brains will realize that Congress will follow any whore who will give them billions of dollars of hidden taxation for them to control. The R-12 taxation is a lot easier than going to the mats and asking for an income tax increase. American taxpayers will let you rape them without much of a fight as long as it is a hidden tax. And the HVAC industry has few complaints since the new government regs create a de facto super guild environment which attempts to exclude consumers and "hacks" from practicing the trade. DuPont is happy. Congress is happy. Techs are happy. The public gets ****ed. If you believe that DuPont is altruistic, then you'd probably believe a Microsoft press release claiming that Apple computers cause brain cancer. Ok, bad example - they do cause brain rot.  Gideon |
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#24
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In article ,
"Gideon" wrote: Vicki Szaszvari wrote Wrong, Freon breath. You need to read something published in the past decade, or get out of the house more often. You probably still believe the whole thing was fabricated by DuPont because of their R-12 patent (which, incidentally, ran out more than 50 years ago.) ========================== Poor logic. The important questions a 1) Who holds the patent on R134a? (hint - DuPont) 2) Who holds the patent on R12? (hint - Not DuPont) 3) Who holds the patents on propane, isobutane and other organic refrigerants? (hint - Not DuPont) Think a bit about those answers and you'll possibly understand DuPont's motivations in guiding the feds and the global community in banning inexpensive and very effective refrigerants that DuPont can't monopolize. DuPont wasn't particularly concerned about any global health issues back around 1928 when it had all of us by the short & curlies with its patent on R-12. DuPont has never been concerned about anything except DuPont's P&L statement. Of course the marginally sentient will claim that our leaders in Washington aren't dumb enough to not recognize a corporation acting out of self-interest. But those with an ounce of brains will realize that Congress will follow any whore who will give them billions of dollars of hidden taxation for them to control. The R-12 taxation is a lot easier than going to the mats and asking for an income tax increase. American taxpayers will let you rape them without much of a fight as long as it is a hidden tax. And the HVAC industry has few complaints since the new government regs create a de facto super guild environment which attempts to exclude consumers and "hacks" from practicing the trade. DuPont is happy. Congress is happy. Techs are happy. The public gets ****ed. If you believe that DuPont is altruistic, then you'd probably believe a Microsoft press release claiming that Apple computers cause brain cancer. Ok, bad example - they do cause brain rot. Gideon You aren't a tech or a company owner obviously. The tree huggers got us into this mess. But you would rather believe it's some conspiracy theory. You should maybe get your brain rot treated. -- Paul's cat got a furball and kept saying weasel's name. *Hack* *Hack* *hack* |
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#25
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:58:46 GMT, in alt.home.repair DANGER:
RADON "Gideon" wrote: Of course the marginally sentient will claim that our leaders in Washington aren't dumb enough to not recognize a corporation acting out of self-interest. But those with an ounce of brains will realize that Congress will follow any whore who will give them billions of dollars of hidden taxation for them to control. The R-12 taxation is a lot easier than going to the mats and asking for an income tax increase. American taxpayers will let you rape them without much of a fight as long as it is a hidden tax. And the HVAC industry has few complaints since the new government regs create a de facto super guild environment which attempts to exclude consumers and "hacks" from practicing the trade. Well said. -- To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address. |
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#26
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"Curly Sue" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:18:14 -0500, Vic Dura wrote: On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 03:04:24 GMT, in alt.home.repair DANGER: RADON "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: They state: What Are the Effects of Radon? Miners exposed to high radon levels have been found to run an increased risk of lung cancer. Radon in the home also presents a risk, but generally at a lower level. These studies were done in the 1950s and 1960s. Most (if not all) of the miners where also heavy smokers. So many were smokers, that they couldn't get a significant sample if they excluded smokers, so they had to keep them in the sample. They compared the lung cancer rate of the miners/smokers to the lung cancer rate of smokers-only. (They did not consider the amount of smoking. I've never seen stats, but my observations of miners as a group is that they are far heavier smokers than the populaton at large.) The difference was very small, and many researchers judged it to be statistically insignificant and the studies non-conclusive. Where have you been? They didn't stop studying radon in the 60s. If studies are non-conclusive, it means they (or the analyses) are "non-conclusive," not that it's the end of the story. "Statistically insignificant" can have as much to do with the design of a study as with biological reality. Do a simple literature search and take note of studies as recent as this year; you're going to be surprized that the conclusions have changed. The issue is not resolved by any means, particularly with dosage, length of exposure (eg. lifetime risk of exposed children vs. risk of adults exposed later in life), and degree of risk. But the fact that it's a difficult issue to study doesn't mean that there is no danger. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! Ever notice how many people roll their eyes in disgust when you ask them if they took a class in statistics or research methods in college? This explains a lot of trends in society, including the reason opinion polls carry so much weight with the simpleminded, and why scientific research often falls on deaf ears. |
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#27
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"bill" wrote in message
... You aren't a tech or a company owner obviously. The tree huggers got us into this mess. But you would rather believe it's some conspiracy theory. You should maybe get your brain rot treated. Just to simplify this a bit, are you saying you do NOT think corporations have purchased legislation which benefits only themselves? |
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#28
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Haha! We have lots that are big enough here that we don't need to make
them more than one story. Gideon wrote: Buy a better house? ================== Vicki Szaszvari wrote in message ... And if there is no basement? |
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#29
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Gideon wrote: If you believe that DuPont is altruistic, then you'd probably believe a Microsoft press release claiming that Apple computers cause brain cancer. Ok, bad example - they do cause brain rot. Microsoft owns part of Apple... |
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#30
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Who holds the patent on R-410a (Hint-Not DuPont!)
So what? Stretch |
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