I'm trying to do some repairs on a house on our ranch the previous owner wired himself, which should set off a bunch of alarm bells right there. In one room there is a window air conditioning unit that's marked as using 230v a/c. As I remember, 230v is only one leg of three phase service. Is this correct?

Anyway, the people who lease the ranch SAY the a/c unit was working up until recently. I checked the wall plug, which has one verticle power blade and one horizontal along with the round ground one, and I get 120v to ground on one blade and nothing to ground on the other. Between the flat blades I get nothing which tells me there's some kind of break in the line (a breaker somewhere or it's burned in two) which goes Lord knows where. I'd need an Ouigi board to ask the guy how he wired this as he passed away a couple of years ago and the walls are all recycled shiplap. I'm just glad the place hasn't burned to the ground yet.

The house has only 120v service to it that I can tell (the stove is wired for 220v). How this was working up until now I don't know unless it was just the internal fan that was blowing. Is there a way to use 120v, or 220v, on 230v system? That sounds crazy to me and the information panel on the a/c unit doesn't hint at a re-wiring option like I've seen on some A/C motors.

Thanks in advance for anyone's insight out there.

No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really doesn't
matter.

Check out:
http://www.networkcable.com/pages/co...onlocking.html
It will tell you what voltage your outlet is supposed to be. (though I have
no idea why they call it 250v!)

I am guessing you have a 6-20, but it could also be a 5-20.
If it is a 6-20, it sounds like one half your your breaker tripped, though
that isn't supposed to happen. If it is a 5-20, then perhaps you have a bad
neutral connection somewhere.
Did you try resetting all the breakers?

Sounds like your house, like just about all, has 240V service. That's
what's running the stove. The A/C sounds like it lost one leg of the
240V. You should have 120V between either leg and ground, 240V between
legs.

The plug with one vertical and one horizontal is designed for 220 volts.
Like the other person said, it sounds like an open leg of the 220.

I suggest you call a Mormon Electrician.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"DanaK" wrote in message
news
I'm trying to do some repairs on a house on our ranch the previous owner
wired himself, which should set off a bunch of alarm bells right there.
In one room there is a window air conditioning unit that's marked as
using 230v a/c. As I remember, 230v is only one leg of three phase
service. Is this correct?

Anyway, the people who lease the ranch SAY the a/c unit was working up
until recently. I checked the wall plug, which has one verticle power
blade and one horizontal along with the round ground one, and I get
120v to ground on one blade and nothing to ground on the other.
Between the flat blades I get nothing which tells me there's some kind
of break in the line (a breaker somewhere or it's burned in two) which
goes Lord knows where. I'd need an Ouigi board to ask the guy how he
wired this as he passed away a couple of years ago and the walls are
all recycled shiplap. I'm just glad the place hasn't burned to the
ground yet.

The house has only 120v service to it that I can tell (the stove is
wired for 220v). How this was working up until now I don't know unless
it was just the internal fan that was blowing. Is there a way to use
120v, or 220v, on 230v system? That sounds crazy to me and the
information panel on the a/c unit doesn't hint at a re-wiring option
like I've seen on some A/C motors.

Thanks in advance for anyone's insight out there.


--
DanaK

On Mon, 2 May 2005 17:58:40 +0100, DanaK
wrote:


I'm trying to do some repairs on a house on our ranch the previous owner
wired himself, which should set off a bunch of alarm bells right there.
In one room there is a window air conditioning unit that's marked as
using 230v a/c. As I remember, 230v is only one leg of three phase
service. Is this correct?

No offense intended here but you dont have enough knowledge to be
working on the electric service in this house. People's lives are at
stake and you don't have a grasp on the basics yet. That not a bad
thing... just get a good book and read up on it some but in the
meantime get an electrician out there to resolve the problems.

Steve B.

"DanaK" wrote in message
news

I'm trying to do some repairs on a house on our ranch the previous owner
wired himself, which should set off a bunch of alarm bells right there.
In one room there is a window air conditioning unit that's marked as
using 230v a/c. As I remember, 230v is only one leg of three phase
service. Is this correct?

Anyway, the people who lease the ranch SAY the a/c unit was working up
until recently. I checked the wall plug, which has one verticle power
blade and one horizontal along with the round ground one, and I get
120v to ground on one blade and nothing to ground on the other.
Between the flat blades I get nothing which tells me there's some kind
of break in the line (a breaker somewhere or it's burned in two) which
goes Lord knows where. I'd need an Ouigi board to ask the guy how he
wired this as he passed away a couple of years ago and the walls are
all recycled shiplap. I'm just glad the place hasn't burned to the
ground yet.

The house has only 120v service to it that I can tell (the stove is
wired for 220v). How this was working up until now I don't know unless
it was just the internal fan that was blowing. Is there a way to use
120v, or 220v, on 230v system? That sounds crazy to me and the
information panel on the a/c unit doesn't hint at a re-wiring option
like I've seen on some A/C motors.

Thanks in advance for anyone's insight out there.


--
DanaK

If your house is wired for 120V service, there is no way you can get proper
230V operation of any 230 V appliance..

If the stove operated it was running at about its normal wattage.

You say the stove has an "internal fan". Never heard of that. try again.

I recommend you hire an experienced , licensed electrician to check this out
before you burn out an appliance, or someone gets Electrocuted!

If this is a residence in the USA, I would bet dollars to doughtnuts that you have a 220 VAC service, and that the AC unit is also 220 VAC (from your description of the receptacle). I would further guess that one leg of the 220 circuit to the AC unit is out, for whatever reason, bad breaker, fried receptacle, etc. You should be reading 110 between either leg & ground & 220 between the 2 legs.

If you aren't in the USA though, this post may not make any sense.

Yes, I'm in Texas and I strongly suspect 220v is how he wired the wall plug. In the side panel of the A/C unit, however, it says 230v/208v. Isn't this one leg of 3 phase? Since this is a "ranch house" the only thing that is done to code is the A/C unit itself when it was made in the factory.

I have yet to find where this wiring is coming from so I can figure out what he's done and where the power to both legs come from. I hope I don't have to tear up the wall to find out but it may take that. At the very least I suspect I'm going to have to replace the A/C unit.

Thanks for your answer.

I think that the 230/208 would indicate that it could be wired for, or run on 208, but it had to running off of 220 at your house. First thing to check is the breaker, and if that's ok, check the receptacle itself. If you aren't comfortable doing this, get an electrician. It's not likely that the actual wires are the problem, and I doubt that it's much more than a quick service call for an electrician.

Ok, I thought if it said 230/208v that it wouldn't run on anything else - or burn something up due to low voltage or out of phase current.

I'll have to trace the line out to see where it goes. I've crimped some new forked connectors onto the plug terminals so it would have a better connection. He'd used a 10 or 8 guage stranded wire that had all kinds of loose ends sticking out.

Thanks.

On Fri, 6 May 2005 14:29:01 +0100, DanaK
wrote:
Yes, I'm in Texas and I strongly suspect 220v is how he wired the wall
plug. In the side panel of the A/C unit, however, it says 230v/208v.
Isn't this one leg of 3 phase?

The transformer at the street is fed from one leg of a three phase
service. This is standard in the united states. If your a/c unit is
marked 230v then your outlet was 230v (commonly called 220, 230 or
240) or the a/c unit would have never worked.


Since this is a "ranch house" the only
thing that is done to code is the A/C unit itself when it was made in
the factory.

The type of house has nothing to do with whether it meets code or not.
In most places the house has to meet the National Electric Code or
local code to get a certificate of occupancy when it was built. Older
houses, of course, won't meet current code without upgrades but any
new wiring you do has to meet the current codes.


I have yet to find where this wiring is coming from so I can figure out
what he's done and where the power to both legs come from. I hope I
don't have to tear up the wall to find out but it may take that. At
the very least I suspect I'm going to have to replace the A/C unit.


The wirirng should come from a 220v double breaker in the panel and
run directly to the outlet. There is no reason to suspect a problem
with the a/c unit at this point. It requires 220v to work and you
don't have that so it won't work. Thats kind of like running the car
out of gas and saying you need a new one before you add more gas.

A decent electrician can make sense of this and explain it to you in a
matter of minutes. Even if its a bad wire an electrician can put a
tracer on it and tell you exactly where the wire runs and where the
problem is. Why would you want to replace the a/c and tear out walls
to save a $50 charge for an hour of somebodys time?

You say the stove has an "internal fan". Never heard of that. try
again.

Convection ovens come with internal fans. Otherwise known to laymen
and women as "stoves" in common parlance if the unit also has a cooktop
range.

"toller" wrote in message
...
No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really doesn't
matter.

What voltage is 208 using two out of three legs of ? It is usually a 208
three phase system. YOu take two legs off that and get the nominal 110
volts. Not to get hung up on what to call it but whenever I hear
110,115,120 and not often but sometimes 125 volts mentioned I think of it as
the voltages the normal outlets in the home have been called over the years.
Same as for the 220 to 240 volts. But I don't think that the 208 has ever
been mentioned except as a 3 phase circuit and is not found in normal
residential service.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"toller" wrote in message
...

No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really doesn't
matter.


What voltage is 208 using two out of three legs of ? It is usually a 208
three phase system. YOu take two legs off that and get the nominal 110
volts. Not to get hung up on what to call it but whenever I hear
110,115,120 and not often but sometimes 125 volts mentioned I think of it as
the voltages the normal outlets in the home have been called over the years.
Same as for the 220 to 240 volts. But I don't think that the 208 has ever
been mentioned except as a 3 phase circuit and is not found in normal
residential service.


Try again. Two legs of three phase 208 give you one phase 208. Any
single leg to the grounded current carrying conductor (neutral) gives
you 120 volts. 208 is found in normal residential service in multiple
dwellings and in single family detached homes that are located in
neighborhoods dominated by commercial occupancies or served by the same
transformer set as a larger multiple dwelling. Supply practices vary by
utility, state, dominant loads in area... A single phase appliance
rated for 230/208 supply will run on any single phase voltage between
205 and 245. With some such appliances you will have to change the
motor taps in the stuffing box on the motor to allow it to run on the
lower voltage. 230 is the nominal voltage that identifies equipment
that will run on voltages between 220 and 240. If the equipment is not
marked with the /208 it will not run on the lower voltage without a real
risk of overheating and motor failure.

Tom!

Where the hell have you been?

The COMPLETE BULL**** answers to electrical questions are running
RAMPANT.

Go check out the Spa, GFIC and 'How do I find a buried cable' threads.

Extra credit: check out the "How do I ground my puter' thread.

In article . net, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:

"toller" wrote in message
...
No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really doesn't
matter.

What voltage is 208 using two out of three legs of ? It is usually a 208
three phase system. YOu take two legs off that and get the nominal 110
volts.

Wrong. 208V 3ph is 208V phase-to-phase and 120V phase-to-neutral.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Ralph
Mowery" wrote:

"toller" wrote in message
...
No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is
two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really
doesn't
matter.

What voltage is 208 using two out of three legs of ? It is usually a 208
three phase system. YOu take two legs off that and get the nominal 110
volts.

Wrong. 208V 3ph is 208V phase-to-phase and 120V phase-to-neutral.

You are correct. I was thinking of the phase to neutral and did the phase
to phase mistake.
I have been working too much with the 3 phase 480 stuff at work to be
thinking of the 3 phase 208 circuits . We have some of them but not very
many.

On Fri, 06 May 2005 19:49:51 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article . net, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:

"toller" wrote in message
...
No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really doesn't
matter.

What voltage is 208 using two out of three legs of ? It is usually a 208
three phase system. YOu take two legs off that and get the nominal 110
volts.

Wrong. 208V 3ph is 208V phase-to-phase and 120V phase-to-neutral.

Except for Philadelphia Electric. I personally worked with a 240 3 phase
service that provide nominal 120v to ground (neutral) on two legs and 208v to
ground (neutral) on one leg. That leg was refereed to as the "high leg". I
personally blew up some fluorescent lighting because I failed to check which
leg I was using.

I have been told that the PECO scenario is a bit unusual.


____________________
Bill Waller
New Eagle, PA

Wow, quite a few people have posted to this thread all of a sudden. It is interesting to read through them.

After checking the line to make sure the previous owner didn't use more than one wire between the breaker box and the wall plug, which he'd been known to do as old ranchers NEVER throw anything away, and consulting with a few friends that are electricians, I've pretty much determined that what happened was that one of the pair of 20 amp breakers that this A/C unit was on has probably burned out internally. It's been over a week and a half since I've had time to look at this but I plan to replace them with a pair of 30 amp breakers like the other pair that are in the box for the water heater.

The voltage I get between the legs in this breaker box is 243vac. One of the friends I consulted with said this was sufficient for the application. Oh, and it IS all one wire between the breakers and the plug. My friend did reccomend soldering the crimped ends onto the wire to make a better connection, too. After that wrap the plug several times in electrical tape which is what I usually do when installing or otherwise working on wall plugs and switches.

I had to smile at one of the previous posts that replied to my description of the house as being a "ranch house". Yew havta unnerstan tha whut these ol ranchers dew on their "places" aint kwite az civilized as yew peeple thut werk in the citiz'r used to. The closer you get to thinking Looney Tunes and Rube Goldberg the closer you'll get to what's been going on in these houses built any time from the 'teens to the 1950's. "Code" doesn't enter into the designer's mindset. I spent ten years working in a hospital here in our city and I do know what looks good and works right, in general, but I don't work on anything over regular 120v house voltage unless I absolutely have to. That's why I'm asking the questions here to see if I can pick something up. A certified person would throw their hands up and run out of the house screaming if they saw some of the things I've seen done. That's why this old guy and I had less and less to talk about as time went on.

Anyway, I do appreciate the posts and will take with me all the warnings and admonitions found here.

Thanks.

In article ,
DanaK wrote:

Bill Waller Wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2005 19:49:51 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
-
In article et, "Ralph
Mowery" wrote:-

"toller" wrote in message
...-
No such thing as 220v or 230v, only 240v; which some people insist on
calling almost anything. However, you are thinking of 208v, which is
two
legs of three phase; but since you don't have 3 phase, it really
doesn't
matter.

Over the years, the power companies have delivered power at various voltages..
originally there was 110/220, then 115/230, and now it's 120/240, although
sometimes it is really more like 125/250..

-
What voltage is 208 using two out of three legs of ? It is usually a
208
three phase system. YOu take two legs off that and get the nominal
110
volts.-

Wrong. 208V 3ph is 208V phase-to-phase and 120V phase-to-neutral.-

Except for Philadelphia Electric. I personally worked with a 240 3
phase
service that provide nominal 120v to ground (neutral) on two legs and
208v to
ground (neutral) on one leg. That leg was refereed to as the "high
leg". I
personally blew up some fluorescent lighting because I failed to check
which
leg I was using.

There are 2 general types of service in common use today, known as
Single phase, and 3 phase.

-----

Most single family residential will be single phase, where the secondary
side of the supply transformer consists of a single 240 volt winding, with
a grounded center tap for the neutral. This would be a 1 phase/3 wire service.

-----

There are two types of 3 phase wiring, known as WYE (Y), and Delta..

-----

In a 3 phase WYE connected service, the secondary side of the supply
transformer has 3 120 volt windings, 120 degrees apart, with one end of
each winding connected together, which is the grounded neutral.
The voltage from phase-neutral is 120 volts, phase-phase is 208 volts.
This type of supply is very common in locations where there are a lot of
single phase 120 volt loads. Phase colors are Black, Red, Blue.
This would be a 3 phase 120/208 WYE service.

------

In a 3 phase delta connected service, the secondary side of the supply
transformer has 3 (or 2) 240 volt windings, with one of them having a
center tap position. The windings are connected end-end in a delta
(triangle), with the bottom of the triangle being center tapped, for
the grounded neutral position.
The voltage from phase-phase is 240 volts, with the phases adjacent to
the center tap being 120 volts to neutral, and the high leg being 208 volts
to neutral. The center tapped leg looks exactly like a single phase service.

This type of supply is common in some types of industrial occupancies with
a large number of 3 phase motor loads, and a limited amount of 120 volt loads.
Phase colors are Black and Red for the center tapped side, and Orange or
Violet for the high leg (old standard was Orange, some jurisdictions now
require Violet.)
This would be a 3 phase 120/240 delta service.

A delta service can be delivered in several variations, such as 3 wire
(no neutral) for 240 volt 3 phase only, or as "open delta", where one of
the windings to the high leg is eliminated (generally for cost reasons..
it takes one less pole pig..) You find "open delta" in some places where
the requirement is for a limited amount of 3 phase power, as well as a
normal single phase 120/240 service, but mostly because the power company
dosen't want to spend the money for the third pole pig if they don't
absolutely have to...

-----

The actual transformer may have both types of connections, with delta
on the primary side, and WYE on the secondary.. Variations exist,
depending on the power company..


I have been told that the PECO scenario is a bit unusual.


It's not commonly seen in most newer installations, but it does exist..


____________________
Bill Waller
New Eagle, PA



Wow, quite a few people have posted to this thread all of a sudden. It
is interesting to read through them.

After checking the line to make sure the previous owner didn't use more
than one wire between the breaker box and the wall plug, which he'd been
known to do as old ranchers NEVER throw anything away, and consulting
with a few friends that are electricians, I've pretty much determined
that what happened was that one of the pair of 20 amp breakers that
this A/C unit was on has probably burned out internally. It's been
over a week and a half since I've had time to look at this but I plan
to replace them with a pair of 30 amp breakers like the other pair that
are in the box for the water heater.

VERY IMPORTANT
Before you replace the breakers, double check the wire size. It needs to
be at least 10awg for a 30 amp circuit. if it's 12awg, you need to stick
with 20 amp breakers.. If you have a 20 amp receptacle, you need to stick
with a 20 amp breaker.

Using a breaker that is rated for more then the wire can handle is asking
for trouble, since you can now overload the wire, and the breaker will not
protect it.



The voltage I get between the legs in this breaker box is 243vac. One
of the friends I consulted with said this was sufficient for the
application. Oh, and it IS all one wire between the breakers and the
plug. My friend did reccomend soldering the crimped ends onto the wire
to make a better connection, too. After that wrap the plug several
times in electrical tape which is what I usually do when installing or
otherwise working on wall plugs and switches.

I had to smile at one of the previous posts that replied to my
description of the house as being a "ranch house". Yew havta unnerstan
tha whut these ol ranchers dew on their "places" aint kwite az civilized
as yew peeple thut werk in the citiz'r used to. The closer you get to
thinking Looney Tunes and Rube Goldberg the closer you'll get to what's
been going on in these houses built any time from the 'teens to the
1950's. "Code" doesn't enter into the designer's mindset. I spent ten
years working in a hospital here in our city and I do know what looks
good and works right, in general, but I don't work on anything over
regular 120v house voltage unless I absolutely have to. That's why I'm
asking the questions here to see if I can pick something up. A
certified person would throw their hands up and run out of the house
screaming if they saw some of the things I've seen done. That's why
this old guy and I had less and less to talk about as time went on.

Anyway, I do appreciate the posts and will take with me all the
warnings and admonitions found here.

Thanks.


--
DanaK


--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net |
| P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 |
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --

Hi people,

Sorry I haven't been around to answer. I'm not ignoring anyone, we've been on vacation with my daughter's senior class and our heads are still buzzing. Just got in last night. The dog was sure we'd abandoned her and we've had about a foot of rain and ten feet of lightning and a tornado or two in the area this past week so we've got some cleaning up to do around here. No damage, thank God.

The longer these threads get the more difficult it is to make sense out of who's answering whom and to what question. There has been a lot of good and interesting information posted and I'm going to glean as much as I can from the posts and copy and paste them into a more permanent reference file for my future referance.

However, given the numerous times three phase has been explained to me in the past, both in classes and in impromptu training, and seeing the differing views of it here it's no wonder my brain rejected what I'd been told out of confusion long ago. I do remember the "wye" configuration and that there was a second type of configuration in some motors but I've forgotten that one.

I have retained a very vivid object lesson from long ago, however: NEVER check the resistance between two legs on a live 3 phase circuit!! It was toward the end of a long shift and I was trouble shooting a large dryer we had in the laundry of our hospital and I didn't switch from ohms to voltage on the little nickel and dime volt meter we had. Talk about a firecracker going off in your hand! That was tons of fun ....

I will double check the guage size on the wire since I had to open the wall up to trace it out to the breaker. I'm pretty sure it's at least a 10 ga. stranded wire.

I guess someone read my post about the voltage I was getting between the legs in the breaker box - ~243vac.

"the fan" that seems to have a few people scratching their heads: I was in a hurry trying to type in as much detail as possible at the beginning of this thread. The fan I made reference to is the fan in the A/C unit itself. The stove is an old electric range in the house that runs off both legs supplied to the house and probably an early 60's vintage unit. No fan in it, just the A/C unit. I'd been guessing that the fan in the A/C unit was the only part that had actually been working since I thought the A/C unit had had a lower voltage supplied to it than it was rated or built for. I was also afraid that, due to the lower voltage, the compressor and other high voltage sections of the unit may have burned out but now I'm thinking the unit itself is fine so I'm going to replace the breaker set - and wire if I need to.

Thanks once again,
Dana

"DanaK" wrote
Hi people,

Sorry I haven't been around to answer. I'm not ignoring anyone, we've
been on vacation with my daughter's senior class and our heads are
still buzzing. Just got in last night.

Where did you go? Hopefully it wasn't Aruba.......

Wow, that musta been disappointing. "well, that meter isn't going to be good
for much anything any more".

My disappointing moment was an engine which a "helpful" neighbor had sprayed
ether into the cylinder to start it. What he did was dry otu the cylinder
wall, and sieze it up. I did get it freed up and started. then it threw a
rod. Woulda been helpful if I'd given it a good squirt of outboard motor oil
into the cylinder.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"DanaK" wrote in message
news

I have retained a very vivid object lesson from long ago, however:
NEVER check the resistance between two legs on a live 3 phase circuit!!
It was toward the end of a long shift and I was trouble shooting a
large dryer we had in the laundry of our hospital and I didn't switch
from ohms to voltage on the little nickel and dime volt meter we had.
Talk about a firecracker going off in your hand! That was tons of fun
....



--
DanaK

Just to let you know, I've replaced the pair of breakers that fed the A/C unit with a 30 amp pair. It appears that one of the old 20 amp pair had burned out or was not making a reliable connection. Also, I checked the wire to the plug and it is marked as awg 8 - 2 with a bare ground wire.

Now I've got to put the wall back together.

Thanks,
Dana

Nope, other coast. Took a Carnival cruise out of L.A. to Catalina Is. and Ensenada.

Had a little "incident" in Ensenada - the second shift of the Mexican "security" detail that was on duty at Papa's and Beer's took a girl and a boy aside from our group and confiscated their I.D.s. It cost the chaperon that was with them $60 to get them back. The kids wouldn't have gotten back on the ship without them. Mexico used to be a wonderful place to visit up until the early 80's or so. I've not had a real desire to go back there - unless it'd be with a archaeological group or tour - since then.