We're looking to buy a single-family (detached) house in the south
Denver metro area. Price range: $250-300K. Some properties that have
been coming up in MLS searches have HOA fees that pay for snow and
trash removal (most common), sometimes also grounds maintenance, (and
even a community swimming pool - don't need, don't care.) The HOA
fees would be anywhere from $30 to $170/month (paid monthly, quarterly
or annually.) An HOA fee itself would not be a deterrent for us, as we
always approach a deal from the total monthly cost of ownership
standpoint. However, the two big unknowns that we can think of a

- How much/how fast could the HOA fees go up going forward.
- How much pain in the @$$ could an HOA be, and how much control would
we have over the situation.

I know there is no one simple answer to these questions, every HOA is
different. But I would appreciate any input from people who've dealt
with HOAs before.

Cheers

On 14 Dec 2005 09:59:21 -0800, someone wrote:

- How much pain in the @$$ could an HOA be, and how much control would
we have over the situation.

Isn't there an HOA forum out here on usenet? I used to look at it and
man oh man did those folks bitch. Either the HOA was run by
nitpicking busybodies, or else it wasn't being run (effectively) by
anybody and the stuff wasn't getting done.

Lots of planners act like HOAs are the greatest thing on earth, but if
there was a choice, I'd rather not be in one. A lot of folks bitch
that where they want to live, they just about have no choice but to be
in one. Be glad you have a choice.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

writes:

We're looking to buy a single-family (detached) house in the south
Denver metro area. Price range: $250-300K. Some properties that have
been coming up in MLS searches have HOA fees that pay for snow and
trash removal (most common), sometimes also grounds maintenance, (and
even a community swimming pool - don't need, don't care.) The HOA
fees would be anywhere from $30 to $170/month (paid monthly, quarterly
or annually.) An HOA fee itself would not be a deterrent for us, as we
always approach a deal from the total monthly cost of ownership
standpoint. However, the two big unknowns that we can think of a

- How much/how fast could the HOA fees go up going forward.
- How much pain in the @$$ could an HOA be, and how much control would
we have over the situation.

I know there is no one simple answer to these questions, every HOA is
different. But I would appreciate any input from people who've dealt
with HOAs before.

As you suspect, It depends entirely on HOA's. Every set of covenants
is different. HOA fees can go up, but it's something that gets voted
upon. The details of who votes and what's needed to win is part of
the covenants.

A Realtor with local knowledge of the area of Denver in which you're
shopping can be a great navigator of these things, and there's no
substitute for chatting up the neighbors when a particular house grabs
your attention. It's harder to do in the winter when fewer people are out though.

HOA's can be satan incarnate, but there's no way to avoid them in
attached home land. And keep in mind that the monthly fees represent
expense that you'll never see a return on. For example, if $170
covers a pool and fitness center you'll never use, look elsewhere.

--
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

wrote in message
oups.com...
We're looking to buy a single-family (detached) house in the south
Denver metro area. Price range: $250-300K. Some properties that have
been coming up in MLS searches have HOA fees that pay for snow and
trash removal (most common), sometimes also grounds maintenance, (and
even a community swimming pool - don't need, don't care.) The HOA
fees would be anywhere from $30 to $170/month (paid monthly, quarterly
or annually.) An HOA fee itself would not be a deterrent for us, as we
always approach a deal from the total monthly cost of ownership
standpoint. However, the two big unknowns that we can think of a

- How much/how fast could the HOA fees go up going forward.
- How much pain in the @$$ could an HOA be, and how much control would
we have over the situation.

I know there is no one simple answer to these questions, every HOA is
different. But I would appreciate any input from people who've dealt
with HOAs before.

HOAs are a way of life here in Florida. HOA boards have gotten a bad rap.
I have heard them called "shed police" and "lawn nazis" among other things.
At issue are two things, the amenities in the community and the underlying
deed restrictions and covenants that govern land use in your community. The
people in authority in the HOA are usually elected volunteers who are
charged with enforcing the restrictions and maintaining the common areas and
amenities. For example no one objects to the rules "bathing suits must be
worn by all bathers and no urinating in the pool" until their baby, or a
friend's baby, or grand baby wants to go in the pool and the adult in charge
puts them in diaperless. No one wants their neighbor to have an RV, a boat
and three junked card in the yard, but your yard is different, why can't you
have an RV? No one wants the neighbors to have an over grown yard, but why
should those creeps have the right to mow my lawn and send me the bill? I
mean we only took a once in a lifetime one month vacation, it's not like we
don't care. These are the no win issues the volunteer HOA officers have to
deal with daily.

If you like uniformity, quality of life and higher home values, and you are
willing to conform to the community standards, go with a HOA community. If
you don't deal well with rules and don't mind living next to slobs that you
cant control, scrap the restricted communities and HOAs.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, wrote:

- How much/how fast could the HOA fees go up going forward.
- How much pain in the @$$ could an HOA be, and how much control would
we have over the situation.

I know there is no one simple answer to these questions, every HOA is
different. But I would appreciate any input from people who've dealt
with HOAs before.


HOAs are the closest thing to socialism that America has seen to date
1) Little accountability of HOA bureaucrats or rules
2) Communal "values" over individual rights
3) Prone to favoritism to 'in groups'

It always amazes me when people who resist reform in health care,
protection of consumers, etc on the grounds that the proposed changes go
too far against individual liberties then willingly move to a HOA hive.

---
Lord, protect me from those to whom you speak directly
All salute the new age, and I hope nobody escapes

wrote:

- How much/how fast could the HOA fees go up going forward.
- How much pain in the @$$ could an HOA be, and how much control would
we have over the situation.

The two stories I know about, personally... HOA rules said that all
fences had to be natural wood color. Harry Homeowner missed that in
the guidelines and put in a white picket-type fence that cost him about
$3k including installation. His fault? Absolutely. However, three
other white fences in the HOA for several years. When he complained
about that to the HOA, they made *everyone* with a white fence sand and
stain their fences, if possible, or else rip them out.

A different HOA had rules against in-home businesses, but turned a
blind eye to all of them for years... home offices, in-home day-care,
hairdressers, etc. Then one woman moved into the HOA across the street
from one of the daycare providers and reported the provider to the HOA,
who tried to shut her down. She had to collect signatures from
hundreds of members of the HOA in order to get permission to continue
to run her business (and she was successful). Everyone else running a
home-based business got off scot-free, even though they are still in
violation of the rules.

Those are just the two stories from people with whom I've been in
direct contact. I've heard tons of third- and fourth-hand stories as
well.

I have never lived in a neighborhood with an HOA, and I've had no
problems with any of my neighbors. I'll be doing my best to make sure
that continues. It has nothing to do with the fees, and everything to
do with the horror stories.

--
Jennifer

wrote:
I know there is no one simple answer to these questions, every HOA is
different. But I would appreciate any input from people who've dealt
with HOAs before.

I live in a subdivision that has mandatory association membership (it is
in the deed restrictions). The minimal annual assessment is for
security services and maintenance of the small common areas. We have
few restrictions; things like limiting property to single family use, no
short-term vacation rental use, no boat houses, no commercial vehicles,
RVs or trailers parked overnight, limits on number of large household
pets, required architectural review of any additions or renovations,
only tile roofs or better allowed, etc. We don't restrict washing of
cars, maintenance of your own vehicle on your own property, the color of
your home, or anything associated with your interior layout or decor.
We permit flagpoles, satellite dishes and TV antennas as required by the
FCC, but don't allow signs of any type -- including real estate signs or
yes, even political signs (the latter restriction of which has to date
not been ruled unconstitutional in the state of Florida). It is the
nicest, most pleasant area I've ever lived in, and the restrictions help
keep it that way.

Since our deed restrictions run with the property the state requires
that any buyer get a copy before closing and acknowledge their receipt
and understanding of the restrictions at the time of closing. We've
never had a buyer back out because of the restrictions, and in 40 years
we've only had to go to court against one homeowner who knowingly
installed an illegal fence that blocked the water view from their
neighbor's home. Enforcement actions are nil -- maybe one or two phone
calls or letters a year to homeowners whose memory may have lapsed. The
association Board is composed of volunteer members that manage the
annual budget, and we don't have any "management agency" - which I think
is the source of many HOA problems.

I have family members in the real estate business. It is a fact that in
the last decade property values in our subdivision have increased every
year at a rate exceeding that of adjacent neighborhoods that are berift
of deed restrictions and/or do not have active associations.
Coincidence? You decide.

Examine the economics of the areas that you are considering and then
decide whether you want to (would like to) live with the restrictions
and rules of the HOA in order to gain the benefits that they provide.

If you are buying a singe family house, I can't fathom why anyone would
consider buying one that required being in an HOA. In a Condo
community, I could see why, but surely Denver has areas where one could
buy a single family home without being in an HOA.
If you are going to spend a good deal of money on a house, you should
have free reign over the decisions concerning the house.
HOA's are not the norm in most parts of the country. It's not difficult
to see why.
Look elsewhere, I'd say.


Darren
Licensed Real Estate Agent, NY

writes:
If you are buying a singe family house, I can't fathom why anyone
would consider buying one that required being in an HOA. In a Condo
community, I could see why, but surely Denver has areas where one
could buy a single family home without being in an HOA.

In Chicagoland if you want a house in a planned development (as most
are) that's less than 20 years old, HOA's are almost universal. Older
homes, or homes that are tear downs in older neighborhoods, are not.

If you are going to spend a good deal of money on a house, you
should have free reign over the decisions concerning the house.

How excited would you be about that free rein if your idiot neighbor
decides to exercise it by putting at 1950's automobile up on blocks in
the driveway for 5 months, decides that mowing their lawn is so
1990's, and paints their house lime green the same year you decide to
sell your house?

One man's free rein is their neighbor's friggin nightmare.

And don't forget, nearly half of all potential neighbors are by
definition, have below average taste.

So unless the lot is big enough so that you don't get impacted by a
neighbor's decisions on such things, I might consider that folks might
not mind HOA's so much. :-)

HOA's are not the norm in most parts of the country.

In metropolitan areas the size of Denver or better, I challenge that
assertion and would want to see data before granting that one.

It's not difficult to see why. Look elsewhere, I'd say.

Darren
Licensed Real Estate Agent, NY


I wouldn't expect this extreme a stance from a Realtor, honestly. To
have ones own opinions is one thing, but to discount the possibility
that some potential clients might not mind a HOA seems pretty myopic
for a professional real estate agent.

The 50% rule applies to that profession as well, though.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd,
My stance is not so radical as you think.
In my area, HOAs are virtually non existent apart from condo
communities.They just aren't necessary. In my town, single family
homeowners must take care of their property, mow the lawn,etc. in
accordance with local regulations. They can't paint their house a loud
or garish color and can't have a lot of junky cars in their driveways.
These local laws accomplish much of what HOAs do but without much of
the restrictions, and certainly they don't bring about added cost to
the homeowner.
I have more freedom to do what I want with my property, too. I can put
up whatever kind of fence I want, pave my driveway however I want, put
up whatever kind of siding or brick I want, plant whatever trees I
want, put in a swimming pool or jacuzzi if I want,etc.
I enjoy the freedom I have, and I am glad I am not in one of those
"cookie-cutter" type development where every house is identical. How
boring!
Also, property values in "developments" rarely increase the same way
homes outside of developments do.
Just my two cents, as always.....

Darren

wrote:
In my town, single family
homeowners must take care of their property, mow the lawn,etc. in
accordance with local regulations. They can't paint their house a loud
or garish color and can't have a lot of junky cars in their
driveways. These local laws accomplish much of what HOAs do but
without much of the restrictions, and certainly they don't bring
about added cost to the homeowner.

Can you please cite (a link to or copy of the pertinent ordinance would
be fine) the local law that restricts the color that someone paints
their home in your municipality? That would be interesting.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
wrote:
In my town, single family
homeowners must take care of their property, mow the lawn,etc. in
accordance with local regulations. They can't paint their house a loud
or garish color and can't have a lot of junky cars in their
driveways. These local laws accomplish much of what HOAs do but
without much of the restrictions, and certainly they don't bring
about added cost to the homeowner.

Can you please cite (a link to or copy of the pertinent ordinance would
be fine) the local law that restricts the color that someone paints
their home in your municipality? That would be interesting.



I should take a picture of a house 4 blocks from my home and upload it. The
house was just painted in a high gloss enamel yellow-orange with a painted
or stained gray shingle roof. There are always 3 trucks parked on the grass
and one on milk boxes in the driveway that has been there for at least 6-8
months. There's a washing machine (don't know if it's hooked up or not)
right next to the front entrance that's rusted. Now this house is in Palm
Beach County, Florida amidst 250-350K homes. I'll put up with some of the
minor annoyances of an HOA rather than have a neighbor like that.

JerryL wrote:
I should take a picture of a house 4 blocks from my home and upload
it. The house was just painted in a high gloss enamel yellow-orange
with a painted or stained gray shingle roof. There are always 3
trucks parked on the grass and one on milk boxes in the driveway that
has been there for at least 6-8 months. There's a washing machine
(don't know if it's hooked up or not) right next to the front
entrance that's rusted. Now this house is in Palm Beach County,
Florida amidst 250-350K homes. I'll put up with some of the minor
annoyances of an HOA rather than have a neighbor like that.

Call PB County Code Enforcement office at 561-233-5500, and file a
complaint referencing Ordinance 2003-051.

Inoperable vehicle: Shall mean one which cannot be driven upon the
public streets for reasons including but not limited to being
unlicensed, wrecked, abandoned, in a state of disrepair, or in a state
of being incapable of being moved under it’s own power.
Section 305.1 Accumulation of rubbish or garbage: It shall be unlawful
for the owner or occupant of a building, structure or property to
utilize the premises of such property for the open storage of any motor
vehicle which is inoperable and in a state of disrepair, ice box,
refrigerator, stove, or other appliances, glass, building material,
building rubbish, debris, garbage or similar items. It shall be the duty
and responsibility of every such owner or occupant to keep the premises
of such property clean and to remove from the premises all such items as
listed above including but not limited to dead trees, trash, garbage, or
similar items.

..

Call PB County Code Enforcement office at 561-233-5500, and file a
complaint referencing Ordinance 2003-051.

Inoperable vehicle: Shall mean one which cannot be driven upon the
public streets for reasons including but not limited to being
unlicensed, wrecked, abandoned, in a state of disrepair, or in a state
of being incapable of being moved under it’s own power.
Section 305.1 Accumulation of rubbish or garbage: It shall be unlawful
for the owner or occupant of a building, structure or property to
utilize the premises of such property for the open storage of any motor
vehicle which is inoperable and in a state of disrepair, ice box,
refrigerator, stove, or other appliances, glass, building material,
building rubbish, debris, garbage or similar items. It shall be the duty
and responsibility of every such owner or occupant to keep the premises
of such property clean and to remove from the premises all such items as
listed above including but not limited to dead trees, trash, garbage, or
similar items.

You're right and I know the phone number. However it is not my neighbor and
as I said I live about 4 blocks away. If his neighbors want to live with
this mess, it's their choice. I was just bringing out a point of some of the
advantages of living in an HOA. Yes, some HOA's have dictators on the
board and they make life miserable but if everyone in the community read and
knew the docs they would see that most of the crap these wanna be dictators
dish out is illegal and not called for in the docs. The problem is that
many homeowners do not know or want to know what's in the docs until it
affects them adversely.

JerryL wrote:
The problem is that many homeowners do not know or want to know
what's in the docs until it affects them adversely.

Then they are sticking their heads in the sand and have no right to
complain.

Florida Statute 720.401 Prospective purchasers subject to association
membership requirement; disclosure required; covenants; assessments;
contract cancellation.--

(1)(a) A prospective parcel owner in a community must be presented a
disclosure summary before executing the contract for sale. The
disclosure summary must be in a form substantially similar to the
following form:

DISCLOSURE SUMMARY
FOR
(NAME OF COMMUNITY)

1. AS A PURCHASER OF PROPERTY IN THIS COMMUNITY, YOU WILL BE OBLIGATED
TO BE A MEMBER OF A HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION.

2. THERE HAVE BEEN OR WILL BE RECORDED RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS GOVERNING
THE USE AND OCCUPANCY OF PROPERTIES IN THIS COMMUNITY.

3. YOU WILL BE OBLIGATED TO PAY ASSESSMENTS TO THE ASSOCIATION.
ASSESSMENTS MAY BE SUBJECT TO PERIODIC CHANGE. IF APPLICABLE, THE
CURRENT AMOUNT IS $_____ PER _____. YOU WILL ALSO BE OBLIGATED TO PAY
ANY SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS IMPOSED BY THE ASSOCIATION. SUCH SPECIAL
ASSESSMENTS MAY BE SUBJECT TO CHANGE. IF APPLICABLE, THE CURRENT AMOUNT
IS $_____ PER _____.

4. YOU MAY BE OBLIGATED TO PAY SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS TO THE RESPECTIVE
MUNICIPALITY, COUNTY, OR SPECIAL DISTRICT. ALL ASSESSMENTS ARE SUBJECT
TO PERIODIC CHANGE.

5. YOUR FAILURE TO PAY SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS OR ASSESSMENTS LEVIED BY A
MANDATORY HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION COULD RESULT IN A LIEN ON YOUR
PROPERTY.

6. THERE MAY BE AN OBLIGATION TO PAY RENT OR LAND USE FEES FOR
RECREATIONAL OR OTHER COMMONLY USED FACILITIES AS AN OBLIGATION OF
MEMBERSHIP IN THE HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION. IF APPLICABLE, THE CURRENT
AMOUNT IS $_____ PER _____.

7. THE DEVELOPER MAY HAVE THE RIGHT TO AMEND THE RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE ASSOCIATION MEMBERSHIP OR THE APPROVAL OF
THE PARCEL OWNERS.

8. THE STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS DISCLOSURE FORM ARE ONLY SUMMARY IN
NATURE, AND, AS A PROSPECTIVE PURCHASER, YOU SHOULD REFER TO THE
COVENANTS AND THE ASSOCIATION GOVERNING DOCUMENTS BEFORE PURCHASING
PROPERTY.

9. THESE DOCUMENTS ARE EITHER MATTERS OF PUBLIC RECORD AND CAN BE
OBTAINED FROM THE RECORD OFFICE IN THE COUNTY WHERE THE PROPERTY IS
LOCATED, OR ARE NOT RECORDED AND CAN BE OBTAINED FROM THE DEVELOPER.

DATE:

PURCHASER:

PURCHASER:

The disclosure must be supplied by the developer, or by the parcel owner
if the sale is by an owner that is not the developer. Any contract or
agreement for sale shall refer to and incorporate the disclosure summary
and shall include, in prominent language, a statement that the potential
buyer should not execute the contract or agreement until they have
received and read the disclosure summary required by this section.
(b) Each contract entered into for the sale of property governed by
covenants subject to disclosure required by this section must contain in
conspicuous type a clause that states:

IF THE DISCLOSURE SUMMARY REQUIRED BY SECTION 720.401, FLORIDA
STATUTES, HAS NOT BEEN PROVIDED TO THE PROSPECTIVE PURCHASER BEFORE
EXECUTING THIS CONTRACT FOR SALE, THIS CONTRACT IS VOIDABLE BY BUYER BY
DELIVERING TO SELLER OR SELLER'S AGENT OR REPRESENTATIVE WRITTEN NOTICE
OF THE BUYER'S INTENTION TO CANCEL WITHIN 3 DAYS AFTER RECEIPT OF THE
DISCLOSURE SUMMARY OR PRIOR TO CLOSING, WHICHEVER OCCURS FIRST. ANY
PURPORTED WAIVER OF THIS VOIDABILITY RIGHT HAS NO EFFECT. BUYER'S RIGHT
TO VOID THIS CONTRACT SHALL TERMINATE AT CLOSING.

(c) If the disclosure summary is not provided to a prospective
purchaser before the purchaser executes a contract for the sale of
property governed by covenants that are subject to disclosure pursuant
to this section, the purchaser may void the contract by delivering to
the seller or the seller's agent or representative written notice
canceling the contract within 3 days after receipt of the disclosure
summary or prior to closing, whichever occurs first. This right may not
be waived by the purchaser but terminates at closing.

(2) This section does not apply to any association regulated under
chapter 718, chapter 719, chapter 721, or chapter 723 or to a subdivider
registered under chapter 498; and also does not apply if disclosure
regarding the association is otherwise made in connection with the
requirements of chapter 718, chapter 719, chapter 721, or chapter 723.

History.--s. 40, ch. 92-49; s. 63, ch. 95-274; s. 4, ch. 98-261; s. 1,
ch. 2003-48; s. 25, ch. 2004-345; s. 21, ch. 2004-353.

Note.--Former s. 689.26.

snip
a) A prospective parcel owner in a community must be presented a
disclosure summary before executing the contract for sale. The
disclosure summary must be in a form substantially similar to the
following form:

DISCLOSURE SUMMARY
FOR
(NAME OF COMMUNITY)

1. AS A PURCHASER OF PROPERTY IN THIS COMMUNITY, YOU WILL BE OBLIGATED
TO BE A MEMBER OF A HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION.

2. THERE HAVE BEEN OR WILL BE RECORDED RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS GOVERNING
THE USE AND OCCUPANCY OF PROPERTIES IN THIS COMMUNITY.

3. YOU WILL BE OBLIGATED TO PAY ASSESSMENTS TO THE ASSOCIATION.
ASSESSMENTS MAY BE SUBJECT TO PERIODIC CHANGE. IF APPLICABLE, THE
CURRENT AMOUNT IS $_____ PER _____. YOU WILL ALSO BE OBLIGATED TO PAY
ANY SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS IMPOSED BY THE ASSOCIATION. SUCH SPECIAL
ASSESSMENTS MAY BE SUBJECT TO CHANGE. IF APPLICABLE, THE CURRENT AMOUNT
IS $_____ PER _____.

4. YOU MAY BE OBLIGATED TO PAY SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS TO THE RESPECTIVE
MUNICIPALITY, COUNTY, OR SPECIAL DISTRICT. ALL ASSESSMENTS ARE SUBJECT
TO PERIODIC CHANGE.

5. YOUR FAILURE TO PAY SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS OR ASSESSMENTS LEVIED BY A
MANDATORY HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION COULD RESULT IN A LIEN ON YOUR
PROPERTY.

6. THERE MAY BE AN OBLIGATION TO PAY RENT OR LAND USE FEES FOR
RECREATIONAL OR OTHER COMMONLY USED FACILITIES AS AN OBLIGATION OF
MEMBERSHIP IN THE HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION. IF APPLICABLE, THE CURRENT
AMOUNT IS $_____ PER _____.

7. THE DEVELOPER MAY HAVE THE RIGHT TO AMEND THE RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS
WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE ASSOCIATION MEMBERSHIP OR THE APPROVAL OF
THE PARCEL OWNERS.

8. THE STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS DISCLOSURE FORM ARE ONLY SUMMARY IN
NATURE, AND, AS A PROSPECTIVE PURCHASER, YOU SHOULD REFER TO THE
COVENANTS AND THE ASSOCIATION GOVERNING DOCUMENTS BEFORE PURCHASING
PROPERTY.

9. THESE DOCUMENTS ARE EITHER MATTERS OF PUBLIC RECORD AND CAN BE
OBTAINED FROM THE RECORD OFFICE IN THE COUNTY WHERE THE PROPERTY IS
LOCATED, OR ARE NOT RECORDED AND CAN BE OBTAINED FROM THE DEVELOPER.

DATE:

PURCHASER:

PURCHASER:

The disclosure must be supplied by the developer, or by the parcel owner
if the sale is by an owner that is not the developer. Any contract or
agreement for sale shall refer to and incorporate the disclosure summary
and shall include, in prominent language, a statement that the potential
buyer should not execute the contract or agreement until they have
received and read the disclosure summary required by this section.
(b) Each contract entered into for the sale of property governed by
covenants subject to disclosure required by this section must contain in
conspicuous type a clause that states:

IF THE DISCLOSURE SUMMARY REQUIRED BY SECTION 720.401, FLORIDA
STATUTES, HAS NOT BEEN PROVIDED TO THE PROSPECTIVE PURCHASER BEFORE
EXECUTING THIS CONTRACT FOR SALE, THIS CONTRACT IS VOIDABLE BY BUYER BY
DELIVERING TO SELLER OR SELLER'S AGENT OR REPRESENTATIVE WRITTEN NOTICE
OF THE BUYER'S INTENTION TO CANCEL WITHIN 3 DAYS AFTER RECEIPT OF THE
DISCLOSURE SUMMARY OR PRIOR TO CLOSING, WHICHEVER OCCURS FIRST. ANY
PURPORTED WAIVER OF THIS VOIDABILITY RIGHT HAS NO EFFECT. BUYER'S RIGHT
TO VOID THIS CONTRACT SHALL TERMINATE AT CLOSING.

(c) If the disclosure summary is not provided to a prospective
purchaser before the purchaser executes a contract for the sale of
property governed by covenants that are subject to disclosure pursuant
to this section, the purchaser may void the contract by delivering to
the seller or the seller's agent or representative written notice
canceling the contract within 3 days after receipt of the disclosure
summary or prior to closing, whichever occurs first. This right may not
be waived by the purchaser but terminates at closing.

(2) This section does not apply to any association regulated under
chapter 718, chapter 719, chapter 721, or chapter 723 or to a subdivider
registered under chapter 498; and also does not apply if disclosure
regarding the association is otherwise made in connection with the
requirements of chapter 718, chapter 719, chapter 721, or chapter 723.

History.--s. 40, ch. 92-49; s. 63, ch. 95-274; s. 4, ch. 98-261; s. 1,
ch. 2003-48; s. 25, ch. 2004-345; s. 21, ch. 2004-353.

Note.--Former s. 689.26.


Again you are right. In the last year 6 homes were sold in my development.
It's a requirement that the seller give the buyer a complete copy of the
docs prior to closing and get a signed receipt. We have a condensed version
taking out all the legalese and basically is only about 5 pages of reading
which is also given them. At meetings these people have raised many
questions. When asked if they read the docs prior to purchasing 5 said a
flat 'no' and one said he skimmed through them but didn't really pay
attention. All the questions they are raising are answered in the docs or
the condensed docs.. Two of them said that if they knew about a certain
rule, they would not have purchased here. Well, guess what? Tough. These are
the people that complain and badmouth HOA's. Why do they thing the docs were
given to them PRIOR to their purchase?

JerryL wrote:
Two of them said that if they knew about a certain rule, they
would not have purchased here. Well, guess what? Tough. These are the
people that complain and badmouth HOA's. Why do they thing the docs
were given to them PRIOR to their purchase?

Well said, Jerry. Those are my sentiments exactly. Those folks remind
me of people who move in next to an airport and then complain about the
aircraft noise. Geez.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Todd,
My stance is not so radical as you think.
In my area, HOAs are virtually non existent apart from condo
communities.They just aren't necessary. In my town, single family
homeowners must take care of their property, mow the lawn,etc. in
accordance with local regulations. They can't paint their house a loud
or garish color and can't have a lot of junky cars in their driveways.
These local laws accomplish much of what HOAs do but without much of
the restrictions, and certainly they don't bring about added cost to
the homeowner.

I used to be an agent on LI too, it is clear that you don't service
communities like Roosevelt, Far Rockaway, Huntington Station, East
Northport, Hempstead, West Hempstead, Ronkonkoma, Flanders, Mastic, Mastic
Beach, Shirley or Riverhead to name a few areas of the Island that come to
mind, where there is a junked car in the front lawn on almost every block.
I have seen homes in Roslyn (the unincorporated areas) that have junk
toilets adorning their gardens. Perhaps you have never seen the inventory
in areas other than Manhassett, Plandome and Port Washington, but, trust me,
it is embarrassing to show some of these homes, forget living next to them
on an ongoing basis.




I have more freedom to do what I want with my property, too. I can put
up whatever kind of fence I want, pave my driveway however I want, put
up whatever kind of siding or brick I want, plant whatever trees I
want, put in a swimming pool or jacuzzi if I want,etc.
I enjoy the freedom I have, and I am glad I am not in one of those
"cookie-cutter" type development where every house is identical. How
boring!
Also, property values in "developments" rarely increase the same way
homes outside of developments do.
Just my two cents, as always.....


It is clear that you have not worked areas with new subdivision, like
Manorville. People pay more for the Ward and Joan Cleaver type of
neighborhood every time.

I used to be an agent on LI too, it is clear that you don't service
communities like Roosevelt, Far Rockaway, Huntington Station, East
Northport, Hempstead, West Hempstead, Ronkonkoma, Flanders, Mastic, Mastic
Beach, Shirley or Riverhead to name a few areas of the Island that come to
mind, where there is a junked car in the front lawn on almost every block.



East Northport? My old home town. Used to be one of the nicest areas on Long
Island. What happened?

In article , Travis Jordan says...

JerryL wrote:
Two of them said that if they knew about a certain rule, they
would not have purchased here. Well, guess what? Tough. These are the
people that complain and badmouth HOA's. Why do they thing the docs
were given to them PRIOR to their purchase?

Well said, Jerry. Those are my sentiments exactly. Those folks remind
me of people who move in next to an airport and then complain about the
aircraft noise. Geez.



Actually, I think they're a slightly different bunch. Nothing to be done about
airplanes.

To them, rules are for the other guy to be invoked if they don't like him. As
to them, they figure they'll either charm or intimidate others to ignoring their
violations. They think it's a game they figure they'll win if they're tough
enough.

It isnt' just HOA's. It's zoning laws, animal control ordinances, etc.

Banty

Banty wrote:
Actually, I think they're a slightly different bunch. Nothing to be
done about airplanes.

Sure there is. You can ban noisy "stage 2" jets (example: Naples, FL),
implement strong noise-control ordinances (preempted by the Federal
government and mostly unenforceable, but that doesn't stop local
municipalities from trying), or even try to get the airport shut down
(Chicago Lakefront, Oxnard, CA and lots of others).

In article , Travis Jordan
says...

Banty wrote:
Actually, I think they're a slightly different bunch. Nothing to be
done about airplanes.

Sure there is. You can ban noisy "stage 2" jets (example: Naples, FL),
implement strong noise-control ordinances (preempted by the Federal
government and mostly unenforceable, but that doesn't stop local
municipalities from trying), or even try to get the airport shut down
(Chicago Lakefront, Oxnard, CA and lots of others).

Well, yeah, and try to get FAA to enforce really steep approaches. But the
*individual* doesn't do that.

I think the folks who try to skirt by HOA rules aren't the dummies who move to
airports and are sooo surprised that air traffic and jet size may increase.

I think folks who try to skirt by HOA rules are like those who try to skirt by
zoning rules, animal control rules, etc. They KNOW that there are rules. They
just don't think the rules are about THEM. They think it's all about how nobody
is supposed to "turn (anyone) in". And if they do, well, we'll see about THAT.
So one turn of calling animal control on a loose dog "deserves" a turn of
spreading a rumor, etc. etc. It's a game to them, one to stay on top of.

Banty

(Todd H.) wrote:

writes:
If you are going to spend a good deal of money on a house, you
should have free reign over the decisions concerning the house.

How excited would you be about that free rein if your idiot neighbor
decides to exercise it by putting at 1950's automobile up on blocks in
the driveway for 5 months,

Wouldn't there be local ordinances against that?

decides that mowing their lawn is so
1990's, and paints their house lime green the same year you decide to
sell your house?

But, see, there we go down the slippery slope. Sure, no cars in blocks in
the driveway for five months, anybody can get behind that.

But not painting your house the color you want? Where does it end?

Pretty soon, the neighborhood busy-bodies are dictating the color of your
drapes and prohibiting you from putting in your window a sign supporting a
political candidate.

I'll tell you one thing. One of the places in the US with the highest
property values (considering what you get) is San Francisco. Here, a 1,200
sq. ft. 3bd/1ba house built in the 20s and not updated since that kitchen
job in the 70s will easily get $800-1,000k.

And what color are the houses? Every color. We're kinda famous for that
because we have people from so many countries living here, and each country
has a different idea of what looks good.

Here you see houses painted neon green with purple trim, or industrial
high-gloss yellow with the trim the same color, or black (jet black) with
orange trim, or even with aluminum paint. Seriously. You walk down the
street and it's, like, did someone slip me a hit of acid in my Coke? No,
that's really the color they are.

And it doesn't seem to hurt property values.

\snip
I'll tell you one thing. One of the places in the US with the highest
property values (considering what you get) is San Francisco. Here, a 1,200
sq. ft. 3bd/1ba house built in the 20s and not updated since that kitchen
job in the 70s will easily get $800-1,000k.

And what color are the houses? Every color. We're kinda famous for that
because we have people from so many countries living here, and each
country
has a different idea of what looks good.

Here you see houses painted neon green with purple trim, or industrial
high-gloss yellow with the trim the same color, or black (jet black) with
orange trim, or even with aluminum paint. Seriously. You walk down the
street and it's, like, did someone slip me a hit of acid in my Coke? No,
that's really the color they are.

And it doesn't seem to hurt property values.


Did it ever occur to you that there is zero building in San Francisco so the
existing homes are priced so high?

"
I think the folks who try to skirt by HOA rules aren't the dummies who
move to
airports and are sooo surprised that air traffic and jet size may
increase.

I think folks who try to skirt by HOA rules are like those who try to
skirt by
zoning rules, animal control rules, etc. They KNOW that there are rules.
They
just don't think the rules are about THEM. They think it's all about how
nobody
is supposed to "turn (anyone) in". And if they do, well, we'll see about
THAT.
So one turn of calling animal control on a loose dog "deserves" a turn of
spreading a rumor, etc. etc. It's a game to them, one to stay on top of.

Banty

And it's always the same people violating the docs and pushing to see how
much they can get away with.

In article , JerryL says...


\snip
I'll tell you one thing. One of the places in the US with the highest
property values (considering what you get) is San Francisco. Here, a 1,200
sq. ft. 3bd/1ba house built in the 20s and not updated since that kitchen
job in the 70s will easily get $800-1,000k.

And what color are the houses? Every color. We're kinda famous for that
because we have people from so many countries living here, and each
country
has a different idea of what looks good.

Here you see houses painted neon green with purple trim, or industrial
high-gloss yellow with the trim the same color, or black (jet black) with
orange trim, or even with aluminum paint. Seriously. You walk down the
street and it's, like, did someone slip me a hit of acid in my Coke? No,
that's really the color they are.

And it doesn't seem to hurt property values.


Did it ever occur to you that there is zero building in San Francisco so the
existing homes are priced so high?



There's also this detail that the Pacific Ocean and the Bay aren't good building
sites, and the Penninsula is pretty full-up, too.

Banty

"Sure, no cars in blocks in
the driveway for five months, anybody can get behind that.

But not painting your house the color you want? Where does it end? "


How about some whacko that wants to paint his house to look like a NYC
subway car, ie the graffitti look, with all kinds of colors slapped on?
Personally, I'd rather have see a nice 50s car on blocks in someones
driveway than have a house painted some obnoxious color to annoy
people.

"JerryL" wrote:

And it doesn't seem to hurt property values.


Did it ever occur to you that there is zero building in San Francisco so the
existing homes are priced so high?

No, twenty-six years living in SF, and it has never occurred to me that
prices are so high because there is zero building.

Besides, prices are high because San Francisco is a desirable place to
live. Take away that desirability, and it doesn't matter if there is or
isn't any building going on.

Anyway, the thread is about HOAs and the huge controll that a small number
of people can exert over other people's property. I still think that local
ordinances take care of antisocial behavior better than CCNRs do.

"Robert Hallsey" writes:

I still think that local ordinances take care of antisocial behavior
better than CCNRs do.

Oh I imagine a lot of folks would agree. But only IF you can get them
passed.

For a builder wanting to ensure a community with the marketing edge of
"things looking nice" as multiple phases of their new construction get
built out, if you can't get ordinances past to minimize the risk of
your investment, it's a lot easier to write in those assurances right
into the neighborhood assosciation by laws for your own development.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

In article .com,
wrote:
"Sure, no cars in blocks in
the driveway for five months, anybody can get behind that.

But not painting your house the color you want? Where does it end? "


How about some whacko that wants to paint his house to look like a NYC
subway car, ie the graffitti look, with all kinds of colors slapped on?
Personally, I'd rather have see a nice 50s car on blocks in someones
driveway than have a house painted some obnoxious color to annoy
people.


What does it matter what color it is? Having beige houses doesn't make
for good neighbors any more than having purple ones does. Some people
are overly involved in the business of others.


Dimitri

"What does it matter what color it is? Having beige houses doesn't make

for good neighbors any more than having purple ones does. Some people
are overly involved in the business of others. "

Let's see what you think when you want to sell your house and the
whacko across the street paints his house in psychedelic graffitti
style because he's ****ed at the neighborhood for some reason. These
things do have a direct effect on property values, ask any real estate
agent.

wrote in message
ps.com...
"What does it matter what color it is? Having beige houses doesn't make

for good neighbors any more than having purple ones does. Some people
are overly involved in the business of others. "

Let's see what you think when you want to sell your house and the
whacko across the street paints his house in psychedelic graffitti
style because he's ****ed at the neighborhood for some reason. These
things do have a direct effect on property values, ask any real estate
agent.


I thought we were all real estate agents, Isn't that the name of the group?

(D. Gerasimatos) writes:

What does it matter what color it is?

When it comes time to resell your home, you better know for certain
that it does matter.

Perceptions of would be buyers are the reality of market time and
achieved sales price.

Having beige houses doesn't make for good neighbors any more than
having purple ones does.

That's true, but that's not really the point. No potential buyer can
gauge "good neighbor." They can see a purple house and only assume
"that guy's a wack job. And in terms of resale, if I don't mind a
purple house, unfortuantely a lot of other potential buyers surely
would."

Some people are overly involved in the business of others.

True. But that's a moot point for this discussion. It's not about
abridging someone else's business, it's about having some recourse
when a neighbor wants to do something really stupid to their property
that will affect the value of his neighbor's home in a very real and
quantifiable economic way.


--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

"homan4" writes:
wrote in message
ps.com...
"What does it matter what color it is? Having beige houses doesn't make

for good neighbors any more than having purple ones does. Some people
are overly involved in the business of others. "

Let's see what you think when you want to sell your house and the
whacko across the street paints his house in psychedelic graffitti
style because he's ****ed at the neighborhood for some reason. These
things do have a direct effect on property values, ask any real estate
agent.


I thought we were all real estate agents, Isn't that the name of the
group?

Maybe the one you're reading. This thread is cross posted to
mis.consumers.house as well.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

In article om,
wrote:
"What does it matter what color it is? Having beige houses doesn't make

for good neighbors any more than having purple ones does. Some people
are overly involved in the business of others. "

Let's see what you think when you want to sell your house and the
whacko across the street paints his house in psychedelic graffitti
style because he's ****ed at the neighborhood for some reason. These
things do have a direct effect on property values, ask any real estate
agent.


If you think the color of a house matters that much then I think you
are a loon. Would I personally avoid buying a house (or offer less for
a house) based on what color some guy across the street painted his
house?! Are you nuts?


Dimitri

D. Gerasimatos wrote:
If you think the color of a house matters that much then I think you
are a loon. Would I personally avoid buying a house (or offer less for
a house) based on what color some guy across the street painted his
house?! Are you nuts?

Glad to hear you don't care about the small stuff.

Please meet your new neighbor.

http://detroityes.com/art/12heidelberg.htm

In article , Todd H. wrote:
(D. Gerasimatos) writes:

What does it matter what color it is?

When it comes time to resell your home, you better know for certain
that it does matter.

Perceptions of would be buyers are the reality of market time and
achieved sales price.


Yes, and a row of beige houses certainly gives a certain perception - not
necessarily a good one either.


Having beige houses doesn't make for good neighbors any more than
having purple ones does.

That's true, but that's not really the point. No potential buyer can
gauge "good neighbor." They can see a purple house and only assume
"that guy's a wack job. And in terms of resale, if I don't mind a
purple house, unfortuantely a lot of other potential buyers surely
would."


I see a purple house and go "Wow, that person must really like purple."
I wouldn't paint my house purple, but there are some purple houses in
my neighborhood. What's the big deal about it? In fact, even though I
think it isn't attractive my girlfriend just loves one of them. Different
strokes for different folks. It's just paint. If the house I want to buy
is purple then I'll paint it. If the house next door is purple then what
do I care? It's not my house.


Some people are overly involved in the business of others.

True. But that's a moot point for this discussion. It's not about
abridging someone else's business, it's about having some recourse
when a neighbor wants to do something really stupid to their property
that will affect the value of his neighbor's home in a very real and
quantifiable economic way.


I think the color of one's home has a negligible effect, if any, on the
property values in a given neighborhood. This is just an excuse people
trot out when they want to control what other people do with their
property.


Way back when (in a neighborhood without an HOA) my father set out to paint
his house in two colors. The top half of the house was one color and the
bottom half was another color. When he was halfway through (had painted
the one color) half the neighborhood had come over to say that he was
ridiculous and how hideous the house looked. Well, when he finally
finished a lot of people came over to compliment him on it and some people
even painted their houses in the same manner. The idea didn't fit in
with their narrow view of what 'looked right' but the final product looked
fine. Colors, whether exterior or interior colors like carpeting, are a fad.
Lime green was cool 50 years ago, then pink, brown, beige, white, whatever.
Are you going to repaint your house every time someone on the block thinks
the color is dated or 'ugly'? Paint your house the color you want it to
be and maybe you'll set a trend. Even if not, at least you'll be happy.
HOAs want everyone to live in a navajo white world.


Dimitri

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:57:52 GMT, "Travis Jordan"
wrote:

D. Gerasimatos wrote:
If you think the color of a house matters that much then I think you
are a loon. Would I personally avoid buying a house (or offer less for
a house) based on what color some guy across the street painted his
house?! Are you nuts?

Glad to hear you don't care about the small stuff.

Please meet your new neighbor.

http://detroityes.com/art/12heidelberg.htm

Great house! These people are definitely taking care of their house.

In article ,
Travis Jordan wrote:
D. Gerasimatos wrote:
If you think the color of a house matters that much then I think you
are a loon. Would I personally avoid buying a house (or offer less for
a house) based on what color some guy across the street painted his
house?! Are you nuts?

Glad to hear you don't care about the small stuff.

Please meet your new neighbor.

http://detroityes.com/art/12heidelberg.htm


What's so bad about it? Probably a more interesting neighbor than someone
who walks by and measures the height of my lawn every week.


Dimitri

What's so bad about it? Probably a more interesting neighbor than someone
who walks by and measures the height of my lawn every week.


Dimitri
Well, we all now know you don't care about the color of the houses
surrounding you. Now, how's about the pickup truck on the lawn on your left
side and the broken down car to the right and the washing machine across the
street being used as a planter. I assume that wouldn't change the value of
your house, would it?