Hello, all. This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)? Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine. Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important. Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,
--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

Might be a PLL locked by the mains.
An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.

J.B. Wood a écrit le 20/03/2019 Ã* 11:57Â*:
Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion
itself, not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are
designed to function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments
I would think frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time
and comment. Sincerely,

On 3/20/19 6:14 AM, Look165 wrote:
Might be a PLL locked by the mains.
An independent frequency generator is too much expensive.
Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.

That's not how it works.
The generator supplies the raw energy to run an inverter.
Locking an inverter to a crystal is simple, and you get
and output frequency with 50 ppm accuracy.

Besides, what good does "phase locked to the mains" do when
it's obvious that you're running a generator because the
mains have gone down.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On 3/20/19 6:14 AM, Look165 wrote:
Some of them have a tachometer to control rotation speed.

Typically, it's a governor, NOT a tachometer.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,

Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output voltage
and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion. The generator's function is to supply
DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC output.
I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter designed
for connection to a motor vehicle battery. So what component(s) control
the inverter generator's output frequency to the required degree of
accuracy? Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.

J.B. Wood a écrit le 20/03/2019 Ã* 15:56Â*:
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes
the time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer
inverter generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it
crystal-controlled or something else? I'm assuming it depends on the
inverter portion itself, not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these
appliances are designed to function in a variety of
temperature/humidity environments I would think frequency stability
is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment. Sincerely,

Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output
voltage and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion.Â* The generator's function is to
supply DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC
output. I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter
designed for connection to a motor vehicle battery.Â* So what
component(s) control the inverter generator's output frequency to the
required degree of accuracy? Sincerely,

On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 16:04:08 +0100, Look165
wrote:

If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.

J.B. Wood a écrit le 20/03/2019 à 15:56*:
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
Hello, all.* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes
the time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer
inverter generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?* Is it
crystal-controlled or something else? I'm assuming it depends on the
inverter portion itself, not the rpm of the engine.* Since these
appliances are designed to function in a variety of
temperature/humidity environments I would think frequency stability
is important.* Thanks for your time and comment. Sincerely,

Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output
voltage and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion.* The generator's function is to
supply DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC
output. I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter
designed for connection to a motor vehicle battery.* So what
component(s) control the inverter generator's output frequency to the
required degree of accuracy? Sincerely,


What's it to you? For many applications, frequency isn't important,
but for others, it can be. If frequency is determined by the the
crystal clock of a microprocessor (my guess, but I really don't know),
it should be easy to get pretty close to 60 Hz and clocks will keep
good time and motors will run at the right speed. Some devices will
run cooler at the right frequency, too.

On 3/20/19 10:04 AM, Look165 wrote:
If mains are off, WTF wanting a 60Hz frequency ?
Between 50 and 70 Hz, it's OK.

You've obviously never had a ferroresonant transformer set
fire to itself because it was dealing with a generator
that was NOT on frequency.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

You need to see this as two entirely different systems, the output being dependent on the input for raw energy (watts), but not for frequency.

What comes off an automotive *alternator* is speed-to-voltage dependent AC, which goes through a diode-block and regulator and becomes chopped DC. Which, in turn is *smoothed* by the mother of all capacitors called a "Battery".

Which then goes into the Inverter - which does not really care whether it is alternator power, or battery power. It takes the DC at some voltage between ~11 VDC and ~15 VDC, and converts it to AC by its internal magic.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On 3/20/19 12:03 PM, wrote:
You need to see this as two entirely different systems, the output being dependent on the input for raw energy (watts), but not for frequency.

What comes off an automotive *alternator* is speed-to-voltage dependent AC, which goes through a diode-block and regulator and becomes chopped DC. Which, in turn is *smoothed* by the mother of all capacitors called a "Battery".

Which then goes into the Inverter - which does not really care whether it is alternator power, or battery power. It takes the DC at some voltage between ~11 VDC and ~15 VDC, and converts it to AC by its internal magic.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Hello, and that's a big detour off my original question, IMHO. Having
said that I have no problem with what you stated. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

On 3/20/19 5:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the time base
(what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?

It would help if you gave us the model number.
https://powerequipment.honda.com/support/shop-manuals



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Wednesday, 20 March 2019 14:56:16 UTC, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,

Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output voltage
and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion. The generator's function is to supply
DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC output.
I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter designed
for connection to a motor vehicle battery. So what component(s) control
the inverter generator's output frequency to the required degree of
accuracy? Sincerely,

Whatever components the designer chose to use in said oscillator. It could be anything, but a crystal is unlikely, they cost at least a penny more.


NT

On 3/20/19 9:49 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 March 2019 14:56:16 UTC, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,

Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output voltage
and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion. The generator's function is to supply
DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC output.
I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter designed
for connection to a motor vehicle battery. So what component(s) control
the inverter generator's output frequency to the required degree of
accuracy? Sincerely,

Whatever components the designer chose to use in said oscillator. It could be anything, but a crystal is unlikely, they cost at least a penny more.


NT


Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc) Lacking
knowledge of the internals, you might ust as well have said "They use
whatever they need to use". Not exactly an erudite response. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

On 3/20/19 9:35 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 3/20/19 5:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the time base
(what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?

It would help if you gave us the model number.
https://powerequipment.honda.com/support/shop-manuals




Hello, and that's certainly reasonable but I was asking a specific
question related to the technology and my guess is that the correct
answer doesn't very that much between manufacturers. I have seen block
wiring diagrams online but not detailed, circuit board schematics.
Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

On Thursday, 21 March 2019 10:35:28 UTC, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 3/20/19 9:49 PM, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 March 2019 14:56:16 UTC, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:

Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,

Hello, all and I appreciate the responses thus far, but my assumption
about the inner workings of these appliances is that the output voltage
and frequency is independent of the rotational speed of the
engine-driven generator portion. The generator's function is to supply
DC input to the inverter which in turn provides the 120/240 VAC output..
I'm assuming the same/similar circuitry as that of an inverter designed
for connection to a motor vehicle battery. So what component(s) control
the inverter generator's output frequency to the required degree of
accuracy? Sincerely,

Whatever components the designer chose to use in said oscillator. It could be anything, but a crystal is unlikely, they cost at least a penny more..


NT


Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)

cost, as I said.

Lacking
knowledge of the internals, you might ust as well have said "They use
whatever they need to use". Not exactly an erudite response. Sincerely,

sorry to hear the reality doesn't meet your approval.

In article ,
says...

Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)

cost, as I said.




The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
of the inverter.

Tabby just wants to find fault with everything.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Thursday, 21 March 2019 14:39:57 UTC, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr says...

Hello, and I already addressed your other post. I think a crystal is
probably likely. You said it was unlikely but don't offer sensible
reason(s) why (e.g. temperature and vibration stability, etc)

cost, as I said.




The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
of the inverter.

No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ceramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensible mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's nothing further for us to discuss.

In article ,
says...


The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
of the inverter.

No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ceramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensible mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's nothing further for us to
discuss.



I guess that I used crystal too loose. Anyway the small processors and
clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.

Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.

On 3/22/19 12:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I guess that I used crystal too loose. Anyway the small processors and
clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.

Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.

I have ordered those for a project.
Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

In article ,
says...
Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.

I have ordered those for a project.
Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.





$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now. I only know
of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
$ 30 per crystal.

On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:
Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,

Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator? It's
important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.

Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.

On 3/22/19 1:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...


The cost of small microprocessors and crystals are almost nothing. Look
at the Arduino processor boards. They can be bought from China for
about 2 ot 3 dollars. They are powerful enough to run the inverter part
of the inverter.

No sensible manufacturer is going to use a crystal` where they can use a ceramic resonator or a silicon oscillator built into the chip. And no sensible mfr is going to pay for a crystal plus a divide by massive number circuit when they can use a low frequency oscillator. If you can't see why there's nothing further for us to
discuss.



I guess that I used crystal too loose. Anyway the small processors and
clock circuits for them are very inexpensive.

Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.



If the processor itself is timed from a crystal many uPs give the option
of scaling down the system clock via a hardware divider to generate a
reference clock for whatever purpose u need

In article t,
Ralph Mowery wrote:

Digikey has for sale crystal oscillators that can be programmed for most
any frequency for around 2 to 3 dollars. I have even ordered them
already programmed for about $ 4 each. I am sure in quanties of
thousnads from the manufactor they are very inexpensive.

I have ordered those for a project.
Certainly cheaper than having crystals made for $18-20 each.

$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now. I only know
of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
$ 30 per crystal.

Those programmable-frequency oscillators may have distinctly worse
phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
circuit. They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.

On Friday, 22 March 2019 21:45:47 UTC, bitrex wrote:
On 3/20/19 6:57 AM, J.B. Wood wrote:

Hello, all.Â* This isn't a repair question but, not having seen any
circuit schematics, I've been wondering what circuitry constitutes the
time base (what governs the 60 Hz AC output freq) in consumer inverter
generators (e.g. the Honda EU series)?Â* Is it crystal-controlled or
something else? I'm assuming it depends on the inverter portion itself,
not the rpm of the engine.Â* Since these appliances are designed to
function in a variety of temperature/humidity environments I would think
frequency stability is important.Â* Thanks for your time and comment.
Sincerely,

Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator? It's
important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.

Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.

There is one appliance fwiw, the pin or segment timer. But portable generators & electrical precision are alien concepts.


NT

On 3/22/19 4:45 PM, bitrex wrote:
Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator?


Obviously, you've never seen a ferro-resonant line conditioner set
fire to itself because it was running on 60 Hz.

This was a very real problem with remote radio sites, running on a
generator with Motorola Micro stations.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

In article , says...

Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator? It's
important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.

Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.



Most home devices not counting clocks are not that frequency sensitive.
The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.

In article ,
says...

$ 10 to 20 is inexpensive for a special made crystal now. I only know
of 2 places right now, Bomar that last report was $ 50 per crystal and
minimum of $ 100 for an order. Another in England that is I think about
$ 30 per crystal.

Those programmable-frequency oscillators may have distinctly worse
phase-noise characteristics than a real crystal in a good oscillator
circuit. They may not necessarily be suitable for communications
projects or others that are sensitive to phase noise / jitter.





They are 'dirty' compaired to a crystal. I have played with a couple on
a spectrum analizer just to see.

Probably not very useful if a clean signal is desired, but fine if just
a close frequency is needed for things like a microprocessor clock.

On 3/22/19 7:30 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator? It's
important for generators that connect to the grid because they have to
sync up to the grid. Most consumer grade generators are not designed to
connect to the grid so what's wrong with 60 hz plus or minus a hz or
two. An RC oscillator can do that. Nowadays most microprocessors have at
least one general-purpose integrated RC clock oscillator.

Appliances that use the 60Hz wall voltage for a timebase for anything
don't really exist anymore not even cheap digital alarm clocks.



Most home devices not counting clocks are not that frequency sensitive.
The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.


I don't think most modern consumer portable generators operate that way,
the engine and drivetrain spin at whatever rpm is convenient for the
form-factor vs. output power vs. noise level requirements etc. and it's
converted to DC then chopped and converted to line frequency AC again as
in a car battery inverter-type dealie.

In article , says...


Most home devices not counting clocks are not that frequency sensitive.
The main thing is the simple generator must run close to 3600 rpm to
generate the desired voltage which is also generated at 60 hz.
A few cycles one way or the other does not mater, but the voltage might.


I don't think most modern consumer portable generators operate that way,
the engine and drivetrain spin at whatever rpm is convenient for the
form-factor vs. output power vs. noise level requirements etc. and it's
converted to DC then chopped and converted to line frequency AC again as
in a car battery inverter-type dealie.



Most home portable generators are direct drive from the engine. They
are less expensive than the inverter type. The inverter type engines
run at whatever rpm it takes to produce the power for the inverter part.

The speed control for them is a simple goveror set for 3600 rpm. I have
two of them rated around 5 kw and one of the $89 Harbor Freight ones
that operate that way.

On Friday, 22 March 2019 22:58:05 UTC, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 3/22/19 4:45 PM, bitrex wrote:
Why is frequency stability important in a consumer-grade generator?


Obviously, you've never seen a ferro-resonant line conditioner set
fire to itself because it was running on 60 Hz.

This was a very real problem with remote radio sites, running on a
generator with Motorola Micro stations.

CVTs are obsolete and not used in homes anyway. That some things don't always survive portable gen power is not news. Portable gens have never had accurate frequency control, or accurate anything control.


NT