No Time wrote:
"Mike Kohary" wrote in message ...

On 10 Mar 2004 22:10:32 -0800, (No Time) Gave us:


"Mike Kohary" wrote in message

...

In many states, it's not illegal for a minor to smoke, but it's illegal

for

them to buy cigarettes. Anyway...

The point is, there is a huge battleground right now, between consumers

and

media companies.

You mean criminals and media companies.

Nope, I mean consumers.


Besides you (assuming you're not a pirate which is nearly impossible
to believe at this point), no consumers care.

I do, thank you. And, last I checked, I fall under the catagory of
consumer and, no, I'm not a pirate. Speak for yourself (and you are
certainly entitled to), but don't write it like everyone shares your
viewpoint, that's just plain ludicrous. I for one, believe that the DMCA
is a load of crap, and should be (and most likely will be) eventually
overturned. I support fair use, and that damn well includes my right to
make a backup copy of something I bought. I also think some laws do need
to be made with digital media becoming popular, but the DMCA does NOT
fill that need I believe. If you like the DMCA (or have ideas for other
laws), write your congressman and tell them your viewpoint, as I did.
They certainly have some say in what laws pass and what laws don't. As
for the DMCA, I suppose we'll just have to wait it out and see what
happens to it. In the meantime, I propose that we stop wasting our time
arguing each others viewpoints on this newsgroup and write to people who
can actually make a difference.

On 18 Mar 2004 00:14:33 -0800, (No Time) wrote:

Me, I make mixed CDs from selections in my CD collection. Hardly criminal.

Is that against the DMCA?

If they are copy-protected


--
Martin D. Bartsch
ARD Paris
German TV Allemande

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:48:01 -0800, "Mike Kohary"
wrote:

"No Time" wrote in message
. com...
"Mike Kohary" wrote in message
...
On 10 Mar 2004 22:10:32 -0800, (No Time) Gave us:

"Mike Kohary" wrote in message
...

In many states, it's not illegal for a minor to smoke, but it's
illegal
for
them to buy cigarettes. Anyway...

Actually it's not legal in any state for a minor to use controlled
substances.
That's regulated on the FEDERAL level and no state shall make a law to
circumvent federal laws.
It's against the law in the entire US for minors to use tobacco
period.
On the subject of fair use of copyrighted materials it's organizations
like ASCAP and the RIAA and their ilk who are the crooks.
Ditto for their evil cousins in the Film and Video industry likewise.
If they had their way we'd pay a fee everytime we played any cd or
tape/dvd we purchased retail.
They're out and out greedy ******* crooks.
And I too am a professional photographer and cinematographer.
I have as much concern over my works and protecting them against
theft.
I believe the copyright laws we have cover that fairly.
We don't need more.
The industry pigs won't be happy until they've invaded our homes with
intrusive electronic monitoring to ensure they can rob us of every
shilling they can squeeze out of us.
Their idea of fair business is to have free run of everyone's pocket
book unto perpetuity.
Hence all their attempts to go around our constitutional freedoms to
thieve as much as they possibly can.
Look at their tactics. Lobbying for instance. Nothing more than bald
face bribery. All the laws that money can buy.
(Please don't start about it having nothing to do with constitutional
freedoms. Any attempt to regulate what you do in the privacy of your
own home is an invasion of privacy.)
And what about their wanting thing both ways to suit their own ends?
They would have us believe that they're not actually selling us a
physical product but that we're entering into an agreement for a
SERVICE. i.e. the right to watch the content of the recorded media in
the privacy of our own homes for our own personal use etc...
But when we want to duplicate that media for the usual reasons.(dvds
and vhs tape are fragile mediums.)
They jump up screaming that we're stealing the content. BULL****!
They are either selling a physical product or they're not.
Copying for home use falls well under fair use and I don't give a fig
what some crooked ass politician or some shyster lawyer for the
industry has to say.
What it really boils down to is that they want us paying over and over
for the same product just so they can enjoy endless riches.
Have you forgotten when they tried to get the lawmakers to outlaw all
audio recording devices? Sounds crazy but they actually tried to get
a law passed to make it a felony to own any type of recording device
which could copy music and thereby infringe on their copyrights of
commercial music.
Then they tried to have a law passed to enable the music industry to
charge business owners a fee if they played publicly broadcasted music
in their shops. And not just a flat fee but a fee based on each and
every song that was played over the airwaves and was received through
the shop owner's radio. HOW LUDICROUS!
High time we exercised our constitutional rights to dismantle the
government. Things have gone much too far.


The point is, there is a huge battleground right now, between
consumers
and
media companies.

You mean criminals and media companies.

Nope, I mean consumers.

Besides you (assuming you're not a pirate which is nearly impossible
to believe at this point), no consumers care.

I resent your insinuations that I'm a criminal. You don't know me, you have
no way of knowing me, so where do you get off presuming to judge me? And
yet you claim to take the high and mighty road when it comes to discussing
issues of ethics.

Think about it for just one minute, putting aside your presupposed notions:
there are plenty of legal reasons to copy media, without breaking a single
law or creating any ethical questions whatsoever. So, given that fact, why
would you assume that everyone copying media is always doing it for a
criminal reason?

Stop being so presumptuous, and try having a civil conversation about this.
Anything else is just intellectually disingenuous; an easy way for you to
defeat an argument you created in the first place, that in no way addresses
my argument. It's a tactic that bereft of any intellectual integrity.

Now, addressing the point: plenty of consumers care. I'm one of them. And
I'll state this flatly for the record: I do not engage in criminal
activities when it comes to copying media, neither passing out copies to my
friends nor selling them for profit. Every copy I make of anything is for
my own personal use only, and is perfectly legal and falls well under my
fair use rights.

Me, I make mixed CDs from selections in my CD collection. Hardly
criminal.

Is that against the DMCA?

If the CD is copy protected, yes, even though the activity itself is well
within my fair use rights.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If your
kids break the TV set, you don't get to go to the store and get a new
one. The same goes for DVD's; you break them, you're SOL - and you
know that going in.

Right, which is exactly why I'd want to copy some of them.

Further, when you by a regrigerator, it's yours, lock stock and
barrel.No
licensing, no rights - you can do whatever the hell you want with it.
Bad
analogy on your part.

The DVD is yours as well. Doesn't mean you can use it to get ahold of
intellectual property which doesn't belong to you.

There is nothing wrong, either ethically or legally, with copying what is on
legally purchased media for your own personal use.

The DMCA is a draconian law that completely favors
media industry and tramples the consumer's rights to fair use of
their
legally purchased product.

Like I said upthread, it sucks that you have no rights to other
people's property, huh?

Straw man. You are intentionally mischaracterizing the issue. That may
make it easier for you to argue your point, but it also causes your
argument
to lose any validity. Try arguing the real issue - it may be more of a
challenge, but at least you won't be losing any integrity arguing
something
I haven't even presented.

You think you have the right to duplicate other people's intellectual
property against their wishes. Seems pretty apt to me.

Their wishes are irrelevant - the law says I can make copies for my own
personal use. Hell, if the law were at the mercy of companies wishes,
imagine all the things consumers wouldn't be allowed to do!

It's not a question of innocence or guilt, terms that would apply to
actual substantive rights. This is simply a question of you wanting to
do something with someone else's property that they don't want you to
do. If you ever produced anything, maybe you'd understand why you're
legless at this point.

I'm a professiona photographer:

http://www.karmaphotography.com

You're out of your league when you go talking about how I simply can't
relate because I don't produce my own intellectual material. Obviously, I
can and do.

but in this case, the media industry would like them thrown out the
window.

They're the owners and it's their prerogative.

That's an extremely dangerous and disturbing attitude to take. I'm sure
many companies would love to employ humans under slave labor conditions also
(and do in some places in the world), but that's their prerogative, right?

Wrong. The law is there to make sure things stay fair and balanced, for
companies *AND* consumers.

Why do you think there are so many court battles
over the DMCA?

Because entitlement-era losers are taking advantage of our easily
abused legal system.

I see it differently - copyright holders are attempting to abuse their
copyrights. Some holders would love to hold copyright in perpetuity, but
that's simply unfair, which any reasonable, uninvested person would agree.

Copyright is intended to allow the rights holder ample opportunity to make
money off of their work. That is perfectly fine, and I fully support that
concept. But it's a concept that is too often abused, and the DMCA is one
of the worst abuses ever. It simply must be defeated.

I'll be happy to continue this conversation if you can do your part
conducting it in a civil manner, without the rhetoric and presumptuous
accusations. Otherwise, have fun having the last word.

Mike

On 13 Mar 2004 23:56:33 -0800, (No Time) wrote:

sam wrote in message . ..
On 10 Mar 2004 22:25:13 -0800, (No Time) wrote:

Well said. As an American, I find it very sad that so many other fellow
Americans are so willing, even eager and aggressive, to give up their
rights. How shameful.

It's incredibly disengenuous to link the "rights" you have as a DVD
consumer with the rights that "as an American" implies. If I had the
confidence that your verbal diahrrea was intentional, I'd put a gun in
my mouth this very instant, fearing and loathing a society that could
produce someone so amoral.

Well, if you're saying that there's a chance you might take your own life then providence
should be thanked.

Providence. LOL

(does anyone have the faintest idea what he's laughing at?)



What a disgusting piece of **** you are.

Don't have a heart attack
I'm merely revolted by you - neither life-threatening nor coronary-inducing.
that I destroyed the disengenuous twit
destroyed?...hardly....you're too incoherent to form a reasoned argument.

who
was having an embolism over not being able to "backup" "his" DVD's
anymore.



Which putrefying hole do you appalling
"holier-than-thou" cranks inhabit and breed in?

The internet didn't change morality one iota

... insofar as the global post-civilized 'morality' has never been quantifiable this claim
is meaningless.

and that upsets you a
great deal.

it's because your premise, above, is invalid that I couldn't possibly be less upset.

Try prozac.

you're the one threatening suicide.

There's a universe of ethical problems to
ponder over nowadays, and all you can find to fuss over is the world-threatening issue of
DVD copying.

I'll leave that to philosophy majors

I majored in and taught other subjects but I'm not ashamed to be interested in philosophy.
However, I see your point and in your shoes I would leave all serious reasoning to others.

like you who spend their precious
few minutes away from the unemployment office

way beyond that - retraité en France

wowing dullards on
usenet with their ability to type and read a thesaurus at the same
time....

....while riding a unicycle perhaps?...in truth I enjoy good writing but clearly your
aspirations are closer to circus clowning. (I never use a thesaurus and I would recommend
you do the same - your prose is suffering because of it)

How does someone who can simultaneously complain about another poster's hyperbolae while
finding the uncertain ethical issues associated with intellectual property so cut-and
dried and world-dominating actually manage to find his legs marching in the same
direction.

ZZZzzzzz, snore, snkk...HUH, oh, wow, that was fascinating. Anyway, I
must've missed your response to his idiotic implication that giving up
our "rights" to archive DVD's will lead us down the dark path to
tyranny. But we both know why you kept your trap shut on that one.

you've been so hopelessly wrong on every other assumption it almost pains me to tell you
you're wrong yet again....perhaps your post was intended for another thread.

**** off and load up your gun.

Next time, jump *this* high.

(does anyone know what he's on about?)

On 10 Mar 2004 22:48:33 -0800, (No Time) wrote:

"Mike Kohary" wrote in message ...
"DarkMatter" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:24:14 -0800, "Mike Kohary" Gave
us:

Degradation or lack thereof was never a reason for the fair use rights of
consumers.

That actually was one of the arguments that swayed the decision.

The degradation of VHS tapes, which is what the law was drafted
based on arguments that they shouldn't have to be repurchased.

That may have come later, but the original argument involved videotaping
shows off of TV broadcasts. Maybe I need to re-read the original casefile
(it's been a long time), but I don't believe degradation was an issue at
that time.

Anyway, it's obviously irrelevant today. Discs don't degrade (at least on
our time scale), but that doesn't change the fact that you're allowed to
make a copy for your own personal use.

No digital extractions and no full res "backups" should be ever
considered legal. It opens the door to the thieves, regardless of how
honorable or noble your intentions are.

But you can't infringe on the rights of innocent people because of what you
fear the criminal element might do.

All rights aren't inalienable, sorry. I'm perfectly willing to give up
my "right" to ever copy anything digital if it'll **** off even one
pirate for just one second.

On this, at least, we're united - I wouldn't give a fig for your rights.

Considering the property owners'
counterattacks have done alot more than that (and in an admittedly
short time as well), and I wave goodbye to such "rights" and laugh and
laugh and laugh.

You might need to check some of the grammar there - and see a specialist about that
compulsive-laughter disorder.

We see entirely too much of that today
already, and it's not a justification.

Sure it is. The pirates fired the first (billion) shots, they're
getting ****ed up the ass now, and all is right with the world. If you
(assuming you're being honest which is almost beyond comprehension at
this point) don't get to "backup" your DVD's anymore, so be it. Thank
the pirates.

How far are we going to allow that
to go?

LOL, "first they came for the people who backed up their DVD's..."
You're a joke. You realize that, right?

I think you'll find that you're the oddball here.


I am a perfectly law-abiding consumer,

I doubt that.

Does anyone care about your doubts? I doubt it.

and if I want to make a copy of a DVD
I legally purchased, for my own personal use, I should be able to do so.

No you shouldn't. Your contrived desires don't supersede the property
holder's rights to protect themselves from gutless cowards who traffic
in P2P.

Too many bogus assumptions - and exchanging DVDs on P2P is hard-going even for broadband.
Try thinking before you type.

What another person might do shouldn't intrude on my rights as a consumer to
do this.

Blame the pirates. BTW, "wants" would more neatly encapsulate the
precious "rights" you're fighting tooth and nail to protect.

What on earth are you blathering about. "Rights" are always preceded by, and fought for
as a result of, "wants".


Mike

DarkMatter wrote:

Not desireable in my book, but still legal, so why hassle him about it?

Stan.


For one thing, because it was posted to several groups for which it
was off topic to do so.


And you're still crossposting it DM!

Jason

I guess you retarded baby bull**** ****tards might learn not to do
it in the future then, eh?


Thank heavens for kill files.

Hey, dork matter.....

PLONK

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:11:19 -0800 DarkMatter
wrote in Message id:
:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:15:51 -0500, "Gypsy"
Gave us:


Thank heavens for kill files.

Hey, dork matter.....

PLONK

One of the funniest things in usenet is when some retarded twit
thinks that his kill filter edit announcement means something.

What's even funnier is when the plonkee needs to get the last word in,
like the small child that he is.

Go to : http://www.dimax.com.ua/index.htm

Great product does the work !!!!

JD
"DarkMatter" a écrit dans le
message de ...
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:30:23 GMT, "HellRazor" Gave
us:

I can get
blitzed off my ass on bubble berry,, and still do better in one day
than you will in your entire pathetic life, little boy.

I'm sure you spend a LOT of time blitzed on your ass!


And yet STILL perform at an order of magnitude more effectiveness
than you EVER will!

Most trailer park
losers like you do.

Most retards like you announce just how stupid you are by making
retarded remarks like that one. You are so obvious, you are beyond
pathetic.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:35:41 -0500, "misterdo"
wrote:

Go to : http://www.dimax.com.ua/index.htm

Great product does the work !!!!

The point is something that doesn't COST money and is software based.
ANYONE can buy a hardware solution, just look in the back of any video
magazine. The ads abound for black box decoders.
What we want here is a no cost(that's freeware) software based
decoder.

JD
"DarkMatter" a écrit dans le
message de ...
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:30:23 GMT, "HellRazor" Gave
us:

I can get
blitzed off my ass on bubble berry,, and still do better in one day
than you will in your entire pathetic life, little boy.

I'm sure you spend a LOT of time blitzed on your ass!


And yet STILL perform at an order of magnitude more effectiveness
than you EVER will!

Most trailer park
losers like you do.

Most retards like you announce just how stupid you are by making
retarded remarks like that one. You are so obvious, you are beyond
pathetic.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:41:01 -0800 DarkMatter
wrote in Message id:
:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:38:24 GMT, "HellRazor" Gave
us:

* Holds out another hoop * Jump, boy! Amuse me some more! I know you
can't resist. Your fragile little ego won't allow you to simply shut up.
So by all means, jump through my hoops, dog boy! I'm waiting!

Sorry, jack-off, but this lame, wussified baby bull**** falls under
yet another troll tactic. Try again.

I've heard that 100,000 people die every day; why can't you be one of
them?

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:19:56 -0800, DarkMatter
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:18:49 -0600, gothika
Gave us:


The point is something that doesn't COST money and is software based.
ANYONE can buy a hardware solution, just look in the back of any video
magazine. The ads abound for black box decoders.
What we want here is a no cost(that's freeware) software based
decoder.

Yer nym should be Idiotica. Also, you are not undead, merely
braindead.


You're calling me an idiot? Seems pretty idiotic to repsond to a post
with a non relevant reply.
Probably just another zit boy computer nerd.

Yo, Duck-matter - get off the internet and go FIND ME THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS
DESTRUCTION!

It's BEEN A YEAR ALREADY! Don't forget that special plane where they trained
the terrorists either!

LMAO

--Bex.

"DarkMatter" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:38:24 GMT, "HellRazor" Gave
us:

Like yours? LOL! You spend all day on newsgroups waiting to respond to me.
How pathetic!
Sorry, jack-off boy. I don't spend any time waiting for ANYTHING
from or about you or any other of your retarded twit crew.

Yo, Duck-matter - get off the internet and go FIND ME THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS
DESTRUCTION!

It's BEEN A YEAR ALREADY! Don't forget that special plane where they trained
the terrorists either!

LMAO

--Bex.

"DarkMatter" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:38:24 GMT, "HellRazor" Gave
us:

Like yours? LOL! You spend all day on newsgroups waiting to respond to me.
How pathetic!
Sorry, jack-off boy. I don't spend any time waiting for ANYTHING
from or about you or any other of your retarded twit crew.