Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Andy Burns wrote:

The original article makes the very crude leap from one filament with a
claimed 0.0001% probability of failure


Grrrr! 0.01% in both cases


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On 03/01/2015 21:50, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 18:23:51 +0000, Adrian wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 10:19:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Please put carrets around URL's so that the Usenet server doesn't
reformat it by wrapping the lines.


Please spell carats correctly and cease the apostrophe abuse so that we
don't have to wrap your lines...


ITYM 'carets'!

"Carats" ties up better with "diamond brackets" :P

Andy

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35 years old? That thing must have been belt driven.

The oldest ones I saw were 1990-ish and from panasonic, with a huge
magnetic ballast. It was large, stupid and didn't fit in most fixtures. I
can't recall what the life was, but it was put together well with lots of
glass and silicone goop. There's no way in hell it was cheaper than a box
of incandescent bulbs, especially when you factor in the part where
electricity itself isn't really that expensive in the US.



When we owned a day nursery, it was located in a Victorian school building
that we bought. It was back in the early 80s. When we bought the place, it
had all old pendant fixtures in the rooms - probably something like 12 in
each room, so you can imagine what the electricity bill would have been
like. I replaced them all with some CFLs called "Dulux EL Globes". I would
guess that each was about 4 - 5" diameter and was completely translucent.
They took a while to warm up to full brightness, but the light output from
them was excellent, and of a very pleasant colour. They ran 5 days a week
from 7:30 in the morning until gone 6pm, and the failure rate was very very
low. They weren't cheap, mind ...

Arfa

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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/e...s_id=222923405

Mindlessly superficial.


Much like you then ...


You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.


BWAHAHAHA !

All that 'good' stuff you've just written, then you spot my (one line)
comment - 2 days late I might add - and you revert exactly to type, as we
have all come to know and expect of you. Good old Rod, never one to let us
down old boy, are you ? :-) I suppose the paper bag is wet because I
live on a soggy little island, right ?

Arfa

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That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My
best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting to
LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting. Am I at
least close?


Not really ...

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving judgment
on LED lighting. My local supermarket recently had a major refit, and all of
their ceiling fluorescent fittings were replaced with linear LED arrays, so
at first, you don't notice that anything has changed. When I did realise, I
was surprised that the quality and intensity of the light in terms of how
well it illuminated the sales floor, was every bit as good as the original
fluorescents. They also have replaced the car park floodlights with LED
arrays, and these are crap compared to the metal halide fixtures that they
replaced. My hairdresser has replaced all of the mini spots in his ceiling
fixtures with equivalent LED bulbs. They produce a good amount of light, and
the colour is not bad, but they are unpleasantly bright to look at. They are
also not a very good shape and don't fit the fixtures terribly well. I'm not
a great fan of LED street lighting either, as I think it is harsh in
comparison to say LPS, and nothing like as effective at penetrating fog, as
it is polychromatic light. It also doesn't seem as good at producing 'even'
street lighting as LPS or even HPS is, if you can get past the yellow colour
of those types.

As everyone also knows, I am not a fan of substitute lighting technologies
brought in for eco-bollox reasons. CFLs are not as good as incandescents,
and never will be in terms of light quality, low temperature performance,
and start-up time. LEDs are better in all of those areas, but still have a
long way to go before I would consider them to be a replacement technology
for domestic incandescent bulbs, rather than the substitute which they
currently are. The 'eco' credentials for this lighting, as spouted by the
politicians and commentators, is always far too simplistic, and designed to
convince the great unwashed that they must be better because they consume so
much less energy. No account is taken of the energy budgets to make these
things in the first place, or to dispose of them (properly) when they fail.
The supermarket sales floor lights are a good example of what can be
achieved with commercial LED lighting. Where you are not trying to reproduce
sunlight - such as with airport runway and taxiway lighting - then they are,
without doubt, the best and most reliable technology for the job. There are
may LED traffic signals in the area where I live, and they seem to work
extremely well, so another area where LEDs are appropriate and good at the
job.

All of the above, we have discussed on these two groups over the years, as
the technology has changed and evolved. I merely thought that this article,
by someone who seems to be in a position to make valid comments on the
subject, had an interesting alternative view of the common wisdom that is
generally pushed. Simply that, Jeff. Hence the reason that I titled the post
"Interesting..." ...



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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Much more likely he doesn't actually have a ****ing clue about the
basics.


Are you any relation to Joshua Speed?


No idea, I've never done the genealogy that comprehensively.
I do know that I am not related to quite a few other Speeds in my country
even tho it is a rather uncommon name.
Arfa is an intelligent and knowledgeable person.


He clearly isn't on that particular question.


What particular question ?


He didn't even notice that cars are MUCH
more reliable than they used to be even tho they have vastly more
components
than they used to have. In spades with computer cpus and memory alone.


You are unbelievable. How did you manage to extrapolate that mindless crap
from my original post ?

Sheesh ! **** ...

Arfa

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"Phil Hobbs" wrote in message
...
On 1/3/2015 1:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 07:10:25 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

The reason for the designed in failures is the need for manufactories
to continue selling replacements. If they actually made a device that
lasts forever, they will sell a few years worth, and then go out of
business because there will be no replacement sales. Reliability is
bad for (consumer) business.

What about lighting for new buildings?


It's strictly a question of selling price.

Joe Sixpack is not going to tolerate $8 "60 watt" lamps in his house.
He wants cheap, at any cost, even if it blows up every few years. I've
noticed that most of the homes that I see that have all LED lighting,
also have a hybrid car, grid tied solar systems, and other energy
conservation devices. They tend to be affluent but not very good at
calculating the alleged savings or comparing with alternatives. When
I do this for them, some don't want to hear the bad news. They'll pay
any price, to save a few pennies. Seriously expensive LED lighting is
not a problem for this market.

However, the rest are tightwads or just plain cheap. They look at the
store shelf and see $1 CCFL lamps next to $10 LED lights. My guess is
they'll buy the $1 lamp and wait for the price of LED's to drop. I
saw this happen at the local hardware store. The flooring manager
said that when he puts the two types of lights next to each other, the
sales of CCFL lamps go up and LED's drop. When he separates them,
putting the LED's in a garish impulse buy display near the cash
register, CCFL sales drop, and LED's go up. The bottom line is that
Joe Sixpack wants cheap lights, and the only way the industry is going
to supply those is to cut corners, which show up as increased infant
mortality and lifetime failures.

However, high reliability lighting (towers, airports, buildings, etc)
are in a different class from Joe Sixpack. You don't find those
lights at the hardware store or supermarket. They're industrial
specialty items, with high quality LED's, and high prices to match.
Reputation is a big thing in such markets, so anything designed to
fail prematurely is not going to last very long.

From my perspective, the cost savings outweigh the "premature" failures.


That totally depends on how you rate lifetime. I get about 2 years on
most of my commodity CCFL lights. I haven't blown out enough lights
to produce useful statistics, but mostly I break them from impact
damage, or something in the electronics burns out, usually with a puff
of smog and a noxious smell. A capacitor would be my guess from the
smell.

However, these are not the best CCFL lights. Why would this company
advertise that their CCFL lamps have 2.5 to 6.6 times the lifetime of
ordinary CCFL lamps?
http://www.ccfllamps.com/_en/02_technology/01_detail.php?fid=3
Is it because their lamps are better, or because the ordinary CCFL
lamps have been cost reduced to produce a shorter lifetime? Dunno,
but I suspect the latter.

LED's are probably similar. You can get those that last forever, and
those that are cost reduced to blow up just after the warranty
expires. If you do the math, my guess is the price/performance ratio
is about the same.

That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"?
My best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting
to LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting.


Like most people, Arfa doesn't like high-K lighting. I switched to 5000K
CFLs,
and though it took a couple of weeks to adjust, I much prefer light that
more-closely resembles daylight, and is subjectively brighter.


It's been a while, but I recall that he could not adjust to LED
lighting. He's not the only one. The neighboring architects office
has two people that claim eyestrain from the replacement LED lighting.
Their section of the office uses ordinary fluorescent tubes and
incandescent desk lamps. (I once suggested kerosene lamps with
predictable results).

I've done some testing on myself to see what works best. 6000K
daylight LED lighting seems best for doing fine detail work.
2700-3000K is much easier on my eyes for reading, but I have trouble
focusing on detail and fine print. I use both where appropriate.


I have a bunch of Luxo desk lamps that have a 100 W incandescent
surrounded by a 22W circular fluorescent. They're by far the easiest
thing on the eyes that I've ever used.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs



Go Phil, go ! :-)

Arfa



--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics


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"Henry Mydlarz" wrote in message
...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ...

EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/e...s_id=222923405

Arfa

A few months ago I bought at Aldi about eight LED bulbs to use on my 240V
lighting (Australia). Three of them failed within about a month, one of
them does light up occasionally. Unfortunately I could not find the
receipt for them.

Henry


Hmmm. From your aspect, point made then, I would guess ??

Arfa

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Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily wrote just the
puerile **** that always pours from the back of it when its
got done like a ****ing dinner, as it always is by everyone.

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Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Much more likely he doesn't actually
have a ****ing clue about the basics.


Arfa is an intelligent and knowledgeable person.


He clearly isn't on that particular question.


What particular question ?


The stupid claim that article he posted made about the
purported problem with a lot more components in a LED light
instead of the single one with the incandescent it replaced.

He didn't even notice that cars are MUCH more reliable than
they used to be even tho they have vastly more components than
they used to have. In spades with computer cpus and memory alone.


You are unbelievable.


We'll see...

How did you manage to extrapolate that
mindless crap from my original post ?


The article you mindlessly posted clearly claimed that
when there are lots more components in the LED light
than in the incandescent light it replaced, that that was
absolutely certain to guarantee that it would have a shorter
life than the incandescent it replaced. Pigs arse it does.

reams of your puerile **** any 2 year old could
leave for dead flushed where it belongs



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On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.


I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal. Things change.

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On 1/4/2015 7:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

By how much?
What's the added surface temperature?
Add that to the filament temperature.
What's the percentage increase in filament temperature?

More likely, it shortens the life of the phenolic socket and switch.

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On 01/05/2015 03:06 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2015-01-05, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.


I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.


Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

Things change.


Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.


I can't afford to waste money on nostalgia. LEDs rule!
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On Mon, 05 Jan 2015 02:42:16 -0800, mike wrote:

On 1/4/2015 7:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

By how much?
What's the added surface temperature?
Add that to the filament temperature.
What's the percentage increase in filament temperature?


Dunno and I don't have an easy way to measure filament temperature.
What I do know is that if I insert an overpowered incandescent light
bulb in my marginally ventillated Ledu desk lamp, it will burn out
fairly soon. The fixture has a sticker on the lampshade inscribed
with:
Caution: To reduce the risk of fire, use 75 watt
type A lamp or smaller.
There's no indication of exactly what will catch fire.

More likely, it shortens the life of the phenolic socket and switch.


The socket is mostly ceramic, although the insulator might be
phenolic. I can't see the switch. The wiring is covered with heat
protecting sleeving. The insulation might deteriorate from long term
overheating but looks like it will survive nicely with normal use.

My guess(tm) is that the 75 watts is mostly from the UL testing, which
certifies that the appliance will not start a fire or electrocute the
owner. UL testing does not test for appliance lifetime or even
survival. I'm not familiar with how UL tests such things, but I
suspect it's something simple like burying the light in newspaper. I
couldn't find any data on incandescent bulb lifespan versus operating
temperature.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Sunday, January 4, 2015 7:02:37 PM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving judgment
on LED lighting. My local supermarket recently had a major refit, and all of
their ceiling fluorescent fittings were replaced with linear LED arrays, so
at first, you don't notice that anything has changed. When I did realise, I
was surprised that the quality and intensity of the light in terms of how
well it illuminated the sales floor, was every bit as good as the original
fluorescents. They also have replaced the car park floodlights with LED
arrays, and these are crap compared to the metal halide fixtures that they
replaced. My hairdresser has replaced all of the mini spots in his ceiling
fixtures with equivalent LED bulbs. They produce a good amount of light, and
the colour is not bad, but they are unpleasantly bright to look at. They are
also not a very good shape and don't fit the fixtures terribly well. I'm not
a great fan of LED street lighting either, as I think it is harsh in
comparison to say LPS, and nothing like as effective at penetrating fog, as
it is polychromatic light. It also doesn't seem as good at producing 'even'
street lighting as LPS or even HPS is, if you can get past the yellow colour
of those types.


I've been a regular visitor to Hong Kong since 2010 and just returned from the worlds largest LED lighting show again in October. I import commercial retrofits that are years ahead of what is available (or "hawked") here in the US. As such, I have quality products and I'm aware of the crap that is out there. My background is in lighting, electronics, television and cinema and I'm well aware of color temperature and lumens. Unfortunately, the customer whose heart is in the right place is usually a victim in cases like you describe. The hacks that sell LED retrofit by-and-large have no clue as to what options are available as they only re-sell what some distributor (or DIY store) has in stock. There are success stories but most likely they are due to dumb luck and not any engineering. Don't get me started on their lack of optical knowledge, lumens, color temperature or the relationship of rods and cones to pupil lumens, CRI, and the horrible spectral response of HPS lamps. I have relations with over 30 vendors in China and I can't tell you how cool and well-made the lamps are becoming.

Here is a brief overview of light and the eye:

Cones and Photopic vision- The central part of the eye is the fovea that is rich in a type of cells called 'cones'. Cones are responsible for color vision and are involved in vision during bright light. This is called Photopic vision.

Rods and Scotopic vision-Rods are sensitive to dim light and are active during low light intensity conditions. Rods cannot perceive color. Vision due to rods is 'black and white.'

Light measuring instruments measure Light intensity in Lumens - considering only the response of the cones. Thus, the Lumens measured by a light meter are also called Photopic Lumens.

In conditions of low light intensity entire vision is due to rod cells (scotopic vision). In medium light intensity (conditions as are often found under street lights and in homes) vision is called Mesopic vision and is due to both rods and cones. Using 'Photopic Lumens' to describe light intensity in such an area grossly underestimates the light intensity as it totally ignores the contribution of rod cells to vision.

And I hate CFLs, too.

Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.


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On 01/05/2015 3:06 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2015-01-05, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.


I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.


Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.


10% sunlight?

John ;-#)#


--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
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On 1/2/2015 8:56 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/e...s_id=222923405


Arfa

Well, i can totally see that. Part of the reason is NOT the LED's
themselves, but the CAP's. If there is a modern multinational cartel
these days, its NOT oil but the manufacturer of small capacitors. They
build these dam things to fail in a few years anymore. Between the
elevated temps they operate at and lack of quality guts, capacitors are
the weak link. And that includes LED lights because they use them in the
power supplys.

Last year, i bought a bargain CFL lamp for $1 at the dollar store.
Worked for maybe a hour them ZBOOOM! TOOK it apart and sure enough,
capacitor guts all over.

It seems most modern LCD tv's have a life of two or three years then
they go haywire. I was all ready to get a new Sharp LED set before the
first of the year on sale and was about the push go, then figured
i better do some research first. Pages and pages of it failed soon
and the manufacturer would not help. I'm sure capacitors are one
of the major reasons for that also.

i just saw some 40W LED bulbs at a ACE US hardware store for $5.99 on
sale. almost got one, but held off for now. Its hard to beat the
simplicity of a incandescent lamp.

bob
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On 05/01/15 20:15, bob wrote:

It seems most modern LCD tv's have a life of two or three years then
they go haywire. I was all ready to get a new Sharp LED set before the
first of the year on sale and was about the push go, then figured
i better do some research first. Pages and pages of it failed soon
and the manufacturer would not help. I'm sure capacitors are one
of the major reasons for that also.


I have 3 Samsung screens:

42" TV, circa 2005, running as well now as the day it was new;

20" (ish) computer monitor, 2006 ish, still good, maybe the backlight is
a tad dimmer than it used to be;

20" ish TV, circa 2008, still perfect, using it now.

So Samsung seems reliable.

i just saw some 40W LED bulbs at a ACE US hardware store for $5.99 on
sale. almost got one, but held off for now. Its hard to beat the
simplicity of a incandescent lamp.

bob


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Rod Speed udtrykte præcist:
Huge wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote


His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower reliability --
but the fact is that one can easily find electronic devices 50 and 60
years old that have never been serviced that continue to work. Members of
this group probably own them.


This is a category error.


No.

Yes, we all have 'n' year old electronic devices, because we have thrown
away the ones that have failed.


And yet cars are in fact MUCH more reliable now even tho they have a lot more
components than they used to have.

My Yaris ran on 3 cylinders. First I changed spark plugs, because that
what usually worked on old cars. But even with a gap of 1.5mm, the
spark was fine.
So I hooked up the OBD-2 reader: Engine misfire cylinder 1.
I exchanged two "spark plug caps" which is really the ignition coil and
some electronics, one unit per cylinder.
Now "Engine misfire cylinder 3"
So a "new" used unit from a junk yard gotthe car running again.
The car only had run 460000km, not sure when, if ever, the spark plugs
had been changed.

So new cars are MUCH more reliable.

Leif

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.


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Leif Neland wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Huge wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote


His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower
reliability -- but the fact is that one can easily find electronic
devices 50 and 60 years old that have never been serviced that
continue to work. Members of this group probably own them.


This is a category error.


No.


Yes, we all have 'n' year old electronic devices, because
we have thrown away the ones that have failed.


And yet cars are in fact MUCH more reliable now even tho
they have a lot more components than they used to have.


My Yaris ran on 3 cylinders. First I changed spark
plugs, because that what usually worked on old cars.
But even with a gap of 1.5mm, the spark was fine.


Because of all those other components that old cars didn't have.

I haven't even bothered to change mine after 10 years.

So I hooked up the OBD-2 reader: Engine misfire cylinder 1.
I exchanged two "spark plug caps" which is really the
ignition coil and some electronics, one unit per cylinder.


Very unusual way to do things.

Now "Engine misfire cylinder 3"
So a "new" used unit from a junk yard gotthe car
running again. The car only had run 460000km, not
sure when, if ever, the spark plugs had been changed.


So new cars are MUCH more reliable.


Yep. Because they have vastly more components.


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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily wrote just the
puerile **** that always pours from the back of it when its got done like
a ****ing dinner, as it always is by everyone.


Everybody who matters knows exactly who I am. You are just not one who
*does* matter Rod. The email address is valid. I'm sure if you were clever
enough to be able to look it up, you could get me right down to a street
address. As for me writing puerile ****, the words pot, kettle and black
come to mind. Most of what you write is *total* **** that no one wants to
hear, and frequently tell you so. But you are so full of yourself and your
opinionated crap, that it all goes over your head. Much like certain other
of your countrymen, as soon as anyone dares to call you out on your mindless
pontifications, you just revert to type, and start screaming bucket-mouthed
abuse. Why don't you just do everyone a big favour, and **** off for another
six months like you often do. And where are you when you do disappear ? In
jail, with any luck ...

Arfa

- or Geoff, if you prefer

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"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2015-01-05, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.


I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.


Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

Things change.


Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.


+1 on each of your points

Arfa



--
Today is Setting Orange, the 5th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
Celebrate Mungday
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my attitude,
that's your problem.

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On 1/4/2015 10:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 14:21:23 -0500, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

I have a bunch of Luxo desk lamps that have a 100 W incandescent
surrounded by a 22W circular fluorescent. They're by far the easiest
thing on the eyes that I've ever used.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs


100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?


Not in the 20 or so years I've been using them. Of course, they were
made onshore, which helps.


I also use two lights, but differently. One is an area flood light,
usually on the ceiling. The other is a desk lamp with a flood light
to light up whatever I'm working on. If the work is large, two flood
lights.

This is what I've been using for close work:
http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/luxo-flood.html
(Oops. I just noticed it's a Ledu, not a Luxo.)


Brr. Ledu is a crappy knockoff of Luxo. I got one by mistake, and it
rapidly went into the trash. Trust me, the $200 a real Luxo costs is a
bargain in the long run.

"Equivalent watts" is a crock. A real 100W bulb puts out about 1690
lumens, so my desk lamps are probably well north of 2500.

Highly recommended, if you have a couple of hundred 100W incandescents
stashed in a cupboard like mine.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Much more likely he doesn't actually have a ****ing clue about the
basics.


Arfa is an intelligent and knowledgeable person.


He clearly isn't on that particular question.


What particular question ?


The stupid claim that article he posted made about the
purported problem with a lot more components in a LED light instead of the
single one with the incandescent it replaced.
He didn't even notice that cars are MUCH more reliable than they used to
be even tho they have vastly more components than they used to have. In
spades with computer cpus and memory alone.


You are unbelievable.


We'll see...

How did you manage to extrapolate that mindless crap from my original
post ?


The article you mindlessly posted clearly claimed that when there are lots
more components in the LED light than in the incandescent light it
replaced, that that was absolutely certain to guarantee that it would have
a shorter life than the incandescent it replaced. Pigs arse it does.
reams of your puerile **** any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed
where it belongs



Oh you stupid stupid man. Do you even understand what the word "interesting"
means ? No, of course you don't, because you aren't ...

I didn't post any article. I posted a *link* to an article written by
someone else. I never said I agreed with it. I never said that I disagreed
with it. I never made any comment about the reliability of cars, or indeed
any system with greater or fewer components in it. The trouble with you is
that you like the sound of your own voice too much. You latch onto just
about every post that's made, and start spouting your half-arsed opinions
about stuff that you often clearly understand nothing at all about. You also
get completely wrong ideas in your empty head about what other people have
said, or attribute things that *have* been said, to the wrong poster.

Again, **** ...

Arfa

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Arfa Daily wrote:

"Rod Speed"

Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily wrote just the
puerile **** that always pours from the back of it when its got done like
a ****ing dinner, as it always is by everyone.


Everybody who matters knows exactly who I am.


** Yeah - the grumpy old guy with a cigar hanging out his mouth...


You are just not one who *does* matter Rod.


** Many folk believe that "Rod Speed" is not an actual person - but a program written by a demented psycho code scribbler bent on revenge.

See this link for an example of what I mean:


http://www.sensationbot.com/jschat.php?db=rodspeed


..... Phil


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On 1/5/2015 5:42 AM, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 7:37 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

100 watt incandescent bulb on a desk lamp? Doesn't that get rather
warm and possibly hot enough to shorten the life of the bulb?

By how much?
What's the added surface temperature?
Add that to the filament temperature.
What's the percentage increase in filament temperature?

More likely, it shortens the life of the phenolic socket and switch.


Phenolic socket? Dear me, you need to get a better class of lamp.
The Luxos are all ceramic and metal, with glass fibre sleeves on the
wiring and two layers of air-spaced metal shield between the bulbs and
the switches.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
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Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily wrote just the
puerile **** that always pours from the back of it when its
got done like a ****ing dinner, as it always is by everyone.

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Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Arfa Daily wrote
Rod Speed wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Rod Speed wrote


Much more likely he doesn't actually have a ****ing clue about the
basics.


Arfa is an intelligent and knowledgeable person.


He clearly isn't on that particular question.


What particular question ?


The stupid claim that article he posted made about the
purported problem with a lot more components in a LED light instead of
the single one with the incandescent it replaced.


He didn't even notice that cars are MUCH more reliable than they used
to be even tho they have vastly more components than they
used to have. In spades with computer cpus and memory alone.


You are unbelievable.


We'll see...


How did you manage to extrapolate that mindless crap from my original
post ?


The article you mindlessly posted clearly claimed that when there are
lots more components in the LED light than in the incandescent light it
replaced, that that was absolutely certain to guarantee that it would
have a shorter life than the incandescent it replaced. Pigs arse it does.


reams of your puerile **** any 2 year old could
leave for dead flushed where it belongs



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On 01/05/2015 12:15 PM, bob wrote:
On 1/2/2015 8:56 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
EE Times article that came to me by email today

http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/e...s_id=222923405



Arfa

Well, i can totally see that. Part of the reason is NOT the LED's
themselves, but the CAP's. If there is a modern multinational cartel
these days, its NOT oil but the manufacturer of small capacitors. They
build these dam things to fail in a few years anymore. Between the
elevated temps they operate at and lack of quality guts, capacitors are
the weak link. And that includes LED lights because they use them in the
power supplys.

Last year, i bought a bargain CFL lamp for $1 at the dollar store.
Worked for maybe a hour them ZBOOOM! TOOK it apart and sure enough,
capacitor guts all over.

It seems most modern LCD tv's have a life of two or three years then
they go haywire. I was all ready to get a new Sharp LED set before the
first of the year on sale and was about the push go, then figured
i better do some research first. Pages and pages of it failed soon
and the manufacturer would not help. I'm sure capacitors are one
of the major reasons for that also.

i just saw some 40W LED bulbs at a ACE US hardware store for $5.99 on
sale. almost got one, but held off for now. Its hard to beat the
simplicity of a incandescent lamp.

bob


As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature. So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments. And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well. Some caps are much more tolerant of 50/60hz and others
are better at 20,000hz. Selecting those takes time and the cost
accountants slip in at some point...

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
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John Robertson wrote:


As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature.


** Usually that number include operation at rated ripple current too.


So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C


** I constantly see large can electros rated at 85C running operating in a 95C ambient that are 30 years old and still fine. Brand is LCR made in England, used in Marshall valve amplifiers and placed right next to the E34 output valves.


or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments.


** 105C electros are pretty much industry standard these days.

Some of them last a long time and some do not.

It has more to do with ripple current and quality of manufacture than anything else.


And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well.


** Low ESR caps have proved to be the most unreliable of the lot - cos so many Asian makers got the chemistry wrong.

Inductance is however a non issue, electros of similar physical size and lead arrangement have the same inductance - usually not more than 25nH.


..... Phil


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Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 3 Jan 2015 06:50:55 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 17:32:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

All this begs the question "Why did the author write the article"? Scott
That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My
This also begs the question "Why did I write this long rant when I


http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/begging-the-question-again/?_r=0


Please put carrets around URL's so that the Usenet server doesn't
reformat it by wrapping the lines.


Please post definition of "carrets" as entering it in many ways in
google fails to find answer.

If your one-line comment is about my use of "begs the question",
you're correct that mine was not the correct usage. It should have
been "raises the question" as described in:
http://begthequestion.info
My appologies. I'll instruct my proof reader to check for such
grammatical errors.



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Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On 3 Jan 2015 06:50:55 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 17:32:41 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

All this begs the question "Why did the author write the article"? Scott
That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My
This also begs the question "Why did I write this long rant when I


http://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/begging-the-question-again/?_r=0


Please put carrets around URL's so that the Usenet server doesn't
reformat it by wrapping the lines.

If your one-line comment is about my use of "begs the question",
you're correct that mine was not the correct usage. It should have
been "raises the question" as described in:
http://begthequestion.info
My appologies. I'll instruct my proof reader to check for such
grammatical errors.


Are those sideways less than more than symbols Carets? I thought that ^
is a carete and would such a caret before and after the URL work?
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On 06/01/15 06:10, John Robertson wrote:

As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature. So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments. And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well. Some caps are much more tolerant of 50/60hz and others
are better at 20,000hz. Selecting those takes time and the cost
accountants slip in at some point...


That's very interesting.

Based on this random driver circuit:

http://www.ecnmag.com/sites/ecnmag.c...206-web(1).jpg

and looking at RS for 680uF around 50V electrolytics:

the 105C are around 50-70 pence
125C are around 130 pence
150C are 252 pence

There seems to be 1 big cap in that circuit - I don't have time now to
cost all of the electrolytics but this looks like a case of adding maybe
3 pounds would make the difference between a short life and a very long
life.

I suspect Philips use the good components - their LED bulbs seem to last
a long time (my tests are still pending) but they cost rather more than
3 pounds over the cheaper LEDs.


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On 06/01/15 06:10, John Robertson wrote:

As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature. So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments. And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well. Some caps are much more tolerant of 50/60hz and others
are better at 20,000hz. Selecting those takes time and the cost
accountants slip in at some point...


Just out of interest, do any mains LEDs use simple reactive droppers, eg
capacitor or inductor, then bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor?

And do 12V LEDs have driver circuits which are less stressed than their
mains equivalents? ie are 12V formats more likely to last longer?

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Tim Watts wrote:



Just out of interest, do any mains LEDs use simple reactive droppers, eg
capacitor or inductor, then bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor?


** Only possible with low power lamps - a few watts at most - beyond which the power factor gets very poor and switch-on surges unacceptable.


And do 12V LEDs have driver circuits which are less stressed than their
mains equivalents? ie are 12V formats more likely to last longer?


** Almost certainly.


..... Phil




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On 06/01/15 08:07, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/01/15 06:10, John Robertson wrote:

As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature. So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments. And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well. Some caps are much more tolerant of 50/60hz and others
are better at 20,000hz. Selecting those takes time and the cost
accountants slip in at some point...


Just out of interest, do any mains LEDs use simple reactive droppers, eg
capacitor or inductor, then bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor?

I suspect not at this point in time.

The problem is that an inductor is large and expensive at 50hz.

Consider 25W of LED. that represents 100mA of current, or an inductor
impedance of around 2.4k ohms 7.6 henries.

That is a fairly large beast. Too large for a light bulb - and indeed
its pretty similar to what's inside a fluorescent ballast of similar
wattage.

Ergo these days we rectify, smooth and chop and transform at much higher
freqs than 50hz to get power at different voltages or to achieve current
limiting. And that gets rid of 100hz flicker too..or should,

And it gets rid of big iron cored chokes. smaller cheaper ferrites with
less copper involved are far far cheaper.

BUT you have the switching transistors and the rectification and
smoothing components operating at high power and mains voltage - bad
reliability especially when HOT.

Actually what is needed is the electronics independent of the bulb.
Maybe built into the light fitting, as it is with fluorescent. And
independently replaceable.

And do 12V LEDs have driver circuits which are less stressed than their
mains equivalents? ie are 12V formats more likely to last longer?

Probably. switching at 12V is not such a hard task for most electronics

The problems of LED bulbs are nothing to do with LEDS and a lot to do
with miniaturisation and cost.

Personally I think that we should be looking at LED lights that are
neither ES nor bayonet, but in fact sit on the end of a piece of wire,
and are large enough and expensive enough to be considered fittings, not
consumables, and simply get wired in when the house is built.

And last at least 15 years.

E.g. you replace a ceiling rose assembly with something remote from the
'bulb' that drives the 'bulb' over a piece of wire at LV. Or you have
integrated lumieres that replace conventional ones.

And indeed in-wall power supplies for designer lighting etc.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll
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"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 06/01/15 06:10, John Robertson wrote:

As usual, heat is the enemy. Reading the technical specs for caps is
enlightening. They are rated usually at something like 2,000 to 5,000
hours at their rated temperature. So an 80C cap will die after something
like 2000 hrs at 80C or 4000 hours at 50C and 10000 hours at 40C (not
looking it up!), whereas a 105C cap will last 10000 hours at 85C, etc.
So, the better the grade of cap the longer it will last in warm to hot
environments. And there is the equivalent resistance and inductance to
consider as well. Some caps are much more tolerant of 50/60hz and others
are better at 20,000hz. Selecting those takes time and the cost
accountants slip in at some point...


Just out of interest, do any mains LEDs use simple reactive droppers, eg
capacitor or inductor, then bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor?

And do 12V LEDs have driver circuits which are less stressed than their
mains equivalents? ie are 12V formats more likely to last longer?


Yes, you don’t need to use caps at all with some configurations of
those, most obviously with series leds.

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On 06/01/15 10:47, john james wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 06/01/15 06:10, John Robertson wrote:


And do 12V LEDs have driver circuits which are less stressed than
their mains equivalents? ie are 12V formats more likely to last longer?


Yes, you don’t need to use caps at all with some configurations of
those, most obviously with series leds.


So one thing is clear - if I decide to deploy high power LEDs I might be
better offering a SELV supply to them and choosing fittings that can
take 12V lamps.

As it happens, I will be using LEDs in a number of relatively open
fittings (GU10s ion the end of stalks, plenty of air), 3 very low power
GU10s in downlighters (2-3W range) as night lighting in the hall.

Other candidates are some 12V G4s in the bathroom, enclosed and some
GX53s (open fitting). So on the whole I should be doing OK with LED
retro fit as the price comes down.
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

[...]
Ergo these days we rectify, smooth and chop and transform at much higher
freqs than 50hz to get power at different voltages or to achieve current
limiting. And that gets rid of 100hz flicker too..or should,


The flicker will only disappear if you use a large capacitor as a
storage element; usually this is found on the HV side of the inverter.
This brings back the reliability problem: it is asking a lot of a big
capacitor to survive for many years when it is potentially exposed to
occasional mains glitches from one side and continuously exposed to the
switching current waveform on the other.

For a given energy storage capacity, capacitors are smaller, lighter and
cheaper than metal-cored chokes, but it is a lot more difficult to make
them as reliable in the long term.


--
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(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
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On Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:31:00 -0500, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Brr. Ledu is a crappy knockoff of Luxo. I got one by mistake, and it
rapidly went into the trash. Trust me, the $200 a real Luxo costs is a
bargain in the long run.


Indeed. I got a secondhand Luxo in 1974, and it finally packed up a
couple of years ago. It was of course replaced by...a Luxo. We also have
a couple of ten year old ones on our office desks at home, one right next
to me here.

Highly recommended, if you have a couple of hundred 100W incandescents
stashed in a cupboard like mine.


And mine.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
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