A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

wrote in message
ups.com...
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

I may be wrong, but I can't believe the difference in frequency could make
that much difference in time.

wrote:
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.



That's bizarre, does the timer use a normal syncronous motor? Either way
that part draws so little current that you could very easily make a
little frequency converter, all you need is an oscillator that runs at
60Hz, a couple of mosfets and some glue components.

wrote:
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.


A possibility is that the timer has developed a fault in that the gear
set in the timer is somehow sticking. Most washing machine timers have
a sytem where the main cam increments one notch for every so many
revolutions of the timer motor. You might notice two 'barrels' inside,
the rear one turning continously and the other clicking round once every
revolution of the rear barrel. The rear barrel controls the main motor,
and the front barrel the fill valves, drain pump and heater. Some
machines have a solenoid which kicks the front barrel out of gear for
certain parts of the wash - heat pause etc. This solenoid is controlled
by a triac on the control module, maybe that`s where the problem lies. A
continuously buzzing solenoid usually means a faulty module.

I,ve seen timers that clicked through in minutes because the little
planet gears were gummed up with deteriorating grease.

Hth

Ron(UK)

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

James Sweet writes:

wrote:
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.
Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing
knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

That's bizarre, does the timer use a normal syncronous motor? Either
way that part draws so little current that you could very easily make
a little frequency converter, all you need is an oscillator that runs
at 60Hz, a couple of mosfets and some glue components.

I have been in email contact. My guess is either that the motor is
indeed defective (unlikely) or that the machine is supposed to move from one
state to the next quickly, but should then hold in each state awaiting
a completion signal and for some reason, that part of the circuit doesn't
like 60 Hz. Unfortunately, the schematic is in French:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/SFX70.pdf

From what I can decipher, the timer uses a normal synchronous motor.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

If the machine is useless anyway, disassemble the timer and
watch it run on 60 HZ. At least you'll get a clue as to why
it's going so fast.

wrote:


Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

"oldfogie" writes:

wrote in message
ups.com...
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

I may be wrong, but I can't believe the difference in frequency could make
that much difference in time.

OK, we now have a schematic in English if anyone is still awake on this
issue:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/sch_eng.pdf

It lookse like there is a signal to start the timer (page 4) and my guess
is that due to either something being broken or the 60/50 Hz issue, the
timer is overshooting where it should stop and so isn't waiting for the
Start signal. Of course, all the magic happens in the "Module".

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam Goldwasser wrote:
"oldfogie" writes:


wrote in message
roups.com...
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

I may be wrong, but I can't believe the difference in frequency could make
that much difference in time.


OK, we now have a schematic in English if anyone is still awake on this
issue:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/sch_eng.pdf

It lookse like there is a signal to start the timer (page 4) and my guess
is that due to either something being broken or the 60/50 Hz issue, the
timer is overshooting where it should stop and so isn't waiting for the
Start signal. Of course, all the magic happens in the "Module".

There appears to be no solenoid connections on the timer, which would
indicate that it`s an 'italian type' which is at odds with the machine
seeming to be a variable temperature machine - on a variable temp
machine, during the heat pause, the timer main cam is knocked out of
gear by a solenoid operated by the module, so that the sub cam which
controls the main motor direction still turns. the solenoid drops out
when the wash water reaches a certain temp, then the rest of the heating
cycle is governed by the time it takes the main cam to move on to it`s
next position

I suspect it`s a mechanical timer and there is a problem with the pawls
between the two cam barrels ( my terminology may differ from yours)
If the timer has a thin card or plastic cover on top, it can usually be
easily levered off to reveal the cams. If both cams revolve together all
the time, the pawl mechanism which causes the intermittent drive of the
front cam is jammed. Some use a maltese cross or 'Geneva Drive' for
this action.

Ron

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther


There appears to be no solenoid connections on the timer, which would
indicate that it`s an 'italian type' which is at odds with the machine
seeming to be a variable temperature machine - on a variable temp
machine, during the heat pause, the timer main cam is knocked out of
gear by a solenoid operated by the module, so that the sub cam which
controls the main motor direction still turns. the solenoid drops out
when the wash water reaches a certain temp, then the rest of the heating
cycle is governed by the time it takes the main cam to move on to it`s
next position

I suspect it`s a mechanical timer and there is a problem with the pawls
between the two cam barrels ( my terminology may differ from yours)
If the timer has a thin card or plastic cover on top, it can usually be
easily levered off to reveal the cams. If both cams revolve together all
the time, the pawl mechanism which causes the intermittent drive of the
front cam is jammed. Some use a maltese cross or 'Geneva Drive' for
this action.

Ron

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

wrote:

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

Hi...

I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
hy-sync motor?

We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
multiple?

If it's of sufficient interest, I have a small car inverter that
changes frequency considerably with changes in engine speed...
and also have a just removed (sticky, but still runs fine) that
I could do some experiments with. Let me know.

And, from the purchase of the replacement defrost timer, I know
that all kinds of replacement motors are available. Wonder if it
wouldn't be possible to replace just the motor? We have a
great old-style appliance parts store here in Winnipeg, and I'd
be happy to check with them if you like.

Take care.

Ken

Ken Weitzel writes:

wrote:

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.
Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...
Esther

Hi...

I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
hy-sync motor?

We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
multiple?

If it's of sufficient interest, I have a small car inverter that
changes frequency considerably with changes in engine speed...
and also have a just removed (sticky, but still runs fine) that
I could do some experiments with. Let me know.

I think the poster said that someone had applied 50 Hz to the motor
and it behaved as expected compared to 60 Hz - 5/6ths the speed.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

"Ken Weitzel" bravely wrote to "All" (05 Nov 05 03:08:49)
--- on the heady topic of " 50 hz timer motor"

KW From: Ken Weitzel
KW Xref: core-easynews sci.electronics.repair:347585

KW wrote:

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

KW Hi...

KW I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
KW hy-sync motor?

KW We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
KW possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
KW multiple?
[,,,]


Ken,

You may be onto something here. The problem might be that the motor is
*not* syncing at all but instead is behaving as a simple ac motor.
Perhaps this is due to the number of pole pieces which can't match up
at 60 Hertz with the design rpm. Basically the rotor simply slips
through its normal virtual electronic cage and spins really fast.
It doesn't spin 1.4 times faster but instead maybe 14 times faster.

A*s*i*m*o*v

.... The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts.

Asimov wrote:
"Ken Weitzel" bravely wrote to "All" (05 Nov 05 03:08:49)
--- on the heady topic of " 50 hz timer motor"

KW From: Ken Weitzel
KW Xref: core-easynews sci.electronics.repair:347585

KW wrote:

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Separately, if the machine is designed to take in cold water and heat
it up internally and the timer motor is expecting feed back signal from
it, would it have caused the problem if the water hose inlet was taking
in hot water directly since we generally have separate hot and cold
water inlets in the US? But there should be a sensor inside the
machine to detect water temperature anyway...

Esther

KW Hi...

KW I wonder if it's not as simple as asking too much of that poor little
KW hy-sync motor?

KW We know that they'll sync perfectly to 49 or 51 cycles, but is it
KW possible that showing it 60 cycles it ends up "syncing" at some
KW multiple?
[,,,]


Ken,

You may be onto something here. The problem might be that the motor is
*not* syncing at all but instead is behaving as a simple ac motor.
Perhaps this is due to the number of pole pieces which can't match up
at 60 Hertz with the design rpm. Basically the rotor simply slips
through its normal virtual electronic cage and spins really fast.
It doesn't spin 1.4 times faster but instead maybe 14 times faster.


That`s a posibility, but if the rear cam barrel in the timer were
turning too fast, the drum wouldn`t do the correct number of turns per
direction in tumble before changing direction.

Ron
--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

wrote:
I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

Approximately how many minutes per rev is the rear cam turning?

Ron

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the
inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

My previous description maybe incomplete. Here are some hard numbers:
The inner cam which is turned by the timer motor through several sets
of reduction gears is turning at 1 revolution per minute. The outer
cam which turns with the timer knob via an anxle has 60 notches and
every 15 seconds, a notch is moved forward, so it works out to be 15
minuters for a revolution for the outer cam. This is recorded when
feeding the timer motor with a black box simulating 230v and 50 hz.


Esther

wrote:
I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle

together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the
inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

My previous description maybe incomplete. Here are some hard numbers:
The inner cam which is turned by the timer motor through several sets
of reduction gears is turning at 1 revolution per minute. The outer
cam which turns with the timer knob via an anxle has 60 notches and
every 15 seconds, a notch is moved forward, so it works out to be 15
minuters for a revolution for the outer cam. This is recorded when
feeding the timer motor with a black box simulating 230v and 50 hz.


Esther

That doesn`t sound correct to me, the rear cam (motor control) should
as you say turn about 1 rev a minute, but the front cam which controls
the fill, heat, drain and spin should I think only move on one click for
each rev of the rear cam. Can you see any coil or solenoid on or inside
the timer?

Ron

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

writes:

I just verified that the inner cam and the outer cam do not revovle
together all the time. It takes a number of revolutions of the
inner
cam to move the outer cam a knob forward.

My previous description maybe incomplete. Here are some hard numbers:
The inner cam which is turned by the timer motor through several sets
of reduction gears is turning at 1 revolution per minute. The outer
cam which turns with the timer knob via an anxle has 60 notches and
every 15 seconds, a notch is moved forward, so it works out to be 15
minuters for a revolution for the outer cam. This is recorded when
feeding the timer motor with a black box simulating 230v and 50 hz.

Now, when running on 60 Hz, is everything just 6/5ths as fast?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

yes.


Now, when running on 60 Hz, is everything just 6/5ths as fast?

As far as I could tell, there is no coil or solenoid inside. However,
the tiny motor has a metal cap on one end and I'm not sure what, if
anything, might be inside. The motor is Crouzet TMX 88900048 A 32591.
I tried to research the motor specification with Crouzet but had hit a
dead end previously.

Esther

Ron(UK) wrote:

That doesn`t sound correct to me, the rear cam (motor control) should
as you say turn about 1 rev a minute, but the front cam which controls
the fill, heat, drain and spin should I think only move on one click for
each rev of the rear cam. Can you see any coil or solenoid on or inside
the timer?

Ron

No, I don't see any coil or solenoid as far as I could tell. The tiny
motor has a metal cap on one end integrated so I don't know what's
inside. It's a Crouzet motor TMX 88900048 A 32591. I already tried to
research the specifications of the motor but hit a dead end before.

wrote:
No, I don't see any coil or solenoid as far as I could tell. The tiny
motor has a metal cap on one end integrated so I don't know what's
inside. It's a Crouzet motor TMX 88900048 A 32591. I already tried to
research the specifications of the motor but hit a dead end before.


If there`s no solenoid, then it`s most probably that the timer itself is
faulty. There was a common problem with some Hoover machines here (UK)
where the timer would skip through the rinse cycle in minutes. The cause
was the geneva drive in the timer (Crouzet) jamming.

Has the fault been apparent on the machine always since it was first
used on 60 hz, or has it developed recently?

Ron(UK)

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor
encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to
replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet
distributors/retailers in the UK?

The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the
brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is
not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact
that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in
the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.

Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the
component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been
discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially
in peace.

Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the
schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled
with knowledgeable people.

This is sounding like a system problem. European washers are supposed to
be energy efficient. There seem to be a number of sensors in this
schematic. Perhaps you are being outsmarted by it. Have you actullay
tried washing a very dirty load of laundry? Maybe it is smart enought to
figure your test runs don't need the normal run time?

wrote:

Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor
encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to
replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet
distributors/retailers in the UK?

The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the
brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is
not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact
that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in
the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.

Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the
component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been
discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially
in peace.

Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the
schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled
with knowledgeable people.




--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

"Follow The Money"

Also did you check the Quick Wash function? Maybe stuck in that mode?

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:

This is sounding like a system problem. European washers are supposed
to be energy efficient. There seem to be a number of sensors in this
schematic. Perhaps you are being outsmarted by it. Have you actullay
tried washing a very dirty load of laundry? Maybe it is smart enought
to figure your test runs don't need the normal run time?

wrote:

Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor
encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to
replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet
distributors/retailers in the UK?

The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the
brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is
not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact
that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in
the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.

Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the
component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been
discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially
in peace.

Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the
schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled
with knowledgeable people.





--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

"Follow The Money"

wrote:
Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor
encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to
replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet
distributors/retailers in the UK?

The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the
brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is
not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact
that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in
the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.

Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the
component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been
discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially
in peace.

Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the
schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled
with knowledgeable people.


In timers that have a geneva drive, it`s between the two sets of cams,
not easily servicable as it entails completly stripping down the timer,
not something a service man would normally attempt to produce a reliable
lasting and guaranteeable repair.

- Something that did just come to mind is the fact that Hoover washers
for the UK market wont work on ships that have 60 hertz supplies. the
drain pumps were changed at some time from a shaded pole motor to a
magnetic rotor, and while the shaded pole unit worked fine, the newer
pumps couldn`t develop enough power to get the water out on 60 hz.

Before you rip the timer apart, take a look on this forum,
http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/ you might find something on there to give
you clue. Its a very slow site btw, dont give up on it loading.


good luck
Ron


--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.

There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:

Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)

Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.

So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.

Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.

One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running
(at 60 Hz).

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.


wrote in message
ups.com...
A few years ago, when there were no tumblers availabe yet in the US
market, I had imported a French-made washing machine (Brandt) to the US
for energy and space-saving purposes. The machine was designed to work
in 220V/50hz and N. America has 110V/60hz. And as a mechanical
engineer, I was naive to think that as long as I had a 220V outlet in
my house, the worst scenario would only be that the machine runs a
little faster (20%) which amounts to 24 minutes in a 120-min wash
cycle.

Well, as it turned out, the machine runs a lot faster. The timing knob
finished a 120-min cycle in something like 6 minutes. The wash, drain,
rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. To this day, I
am still puzzled and not able to solve the problem. If anyone could
shed any light on this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

The only other possible cause would be a defective timer which could
have been assembled with fewer gear sets than ought to be. But without
knowing for sure the root of the problem, it doesn't make sense for me
to invest another $100 to buy a timer from oversea with no English
service manual available.

I may be wrong, but I can't believe the difference in frequency could make
that much difference in time.

Sam Goldwasser wrote:
I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.

There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:

Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)

Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.

So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.

Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.

One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running
(at 60 Hz).

--- sam

Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.

Ron (UK)

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

Ron(UK) wrote:
Sam Goldwasser wrote:

I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.

There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:

Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz
(12.5 s)

Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath
missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.

So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.

Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.

One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is
running
(at 60 Hz).

--- sam


Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.

Ron (UK)

Further to my last post, some timers - we call them the Italian type -
have a lever external to the cam barrels, which is operated by the rear
cam and interupts the connection to the front cams at certain parts of
the program. It`s usually on a rod which runs from front to back of the
timer and has a 'flag' that fits in between the front and rear cams. If
this timer has that arrangment, perhaps it`s seized up in some way.

Ron

--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

"Ron(UK)" writes:

Sam Goldwasser wrote:
I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.
There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:
Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)
Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath
missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.
So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.
Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.
One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant
as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running
(at 60 Hz).
--- sam

Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.

Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/gears.jpg

Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out, which
is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate.
That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator
to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement.
There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are
different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be
for missing parts (or optional parts).

The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by
the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the
black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder,
but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a
certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move
by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.

What would make the most sense is that there is something missing that's
supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam.
That would be one minute at 50 Hz.

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz!

Thanks.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam Goldwasser wrote:

Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/gears.jpg

Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out, which
is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate.
That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator
to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement.
There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are
different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be
for missing parts (or optional parts).

The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by
the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the
black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder,
but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a
certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move
by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.

What would make the most sense is that there is something missing that's
supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam.
That would be one minute at 50 Hz.

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz!

Thanks.

What do the two white wires go to? a pair of contacts, or a coil?

Ron



--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

It's for the power.

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz!



Well if all else fails I've got a friend in the UK who I'm sure would be
happy to try the darn thing on 50 Hz if it was sent over there. I'd say
it's pretty safe to assume the timer is bad though, a part could have
been manufactured with a crack in it and broken apart in shipping.

"Ron(UK)" writes:

Sam Goldwasser wrote:

Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:
http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/gears.jpg
Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out,
which
is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate.
That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator
to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement.
There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are
different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be
for missing parts (or optional parts).
The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by
the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the
black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder,
but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a
certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move
by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.
What would make the most sense is that there is something missing
that's
supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam.
That would be one minute at 50 Hz.
Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz!
Thanks.

What do the two white wires go to? a pair of contacts, or a coil?

No, that's the motor.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

James Sweet writes:

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz!

Well if all else fails I've got a friend in the UK who I'm sure would
be happy to try the darn thing on 50 Hz if it was sent over there. I'd
say it's pretty safe to assume the timer is bad though, a part could
have been manufactured with a crack in it and broken apart in shipping.

I don't think there is any issue with 50/60 Hz. The motor does what
it's supposed to do and there is nothing else in there that is electrical.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

My bet is that the timer is OK. The washer has a quick wash feature
button and further is supposed to be energy efficient. I bet the timer
is turned on and off by a separate master timer, the interval of which
is determined by demand. I think the technology is fooling the original
poster.

Joe

Sam Goldwasser wrote:

"Ron(UK)" writes:



Sam Goldwasser wrote:


I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.
There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:
Driven Drive
Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz
G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz
G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz
G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz
G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)
Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath
missing
every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position.
However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to
be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is
prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However,
I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.
So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing
on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be
for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.
Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more
consideration.
One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant
as
far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around
the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running
(at 60 Hz).
--- sam


Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock
escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to
unless it`s been 'got at' previously.



Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/Misc/tmp/gears.jpg

Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out, which
is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate.
That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator
to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement.
There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are
different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be
for missing parts (or optional parts).

The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by
the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the
black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder,
but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a
certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move
by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.

What would make the most sense is that there is something missing that's
supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam.
That would be one minute at 50 Hz.

Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple
question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to
move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz!

Thanks.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.



--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"

"Follow The Money"

Sam,

On page 4 of the English schematics I sent you which details the timer
sequence, at the bottom left, there are some faded word that says 1T/60
sec, i.e. 1 turn/min. Would that answer your question in regards to
whether the cam moves in 1 minute increments?

Furthermore, I think that each square there represents 5 minutes. If I
added up all the squares for the first program which includes the
pre-wash, it'll amount to 135 minutes which is very close to the user
manual that indicates 2 hours 35 minutes, considering the water-fill
time, repeated rinse and drain. I assume the 135 minutes would be the
actual drum-turning time.

My original post stated that the wash, drain, rinse and spin all were
cut short within each function. Even if it's an extremely light load,
if the machine is so smart that it thinks it should take in water to
wash, why wouldn't it completely empty it during the drain?


**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:
My bet is that the timer is OK. The washer has a quick wash feature
button and further is supposed to be energy efficient. I bet the timer
is turned on and off by a separate master timer, the interval of which
is determined by demand. I think the technology is fooling the original
poster.

Joe

wrote:

My original post stated that the wash, drain, rinse and spin all were
cut short within each function. Even if it's an extremely light load,
if the machine is so smart that it thinks it should take in water to
wash, why wouldn't it completely empty it during the drain?

Hi...

For what it's worth, under some circumstances my old regular top loading
washing machine does just that - intentionally.

I believe it's related to "wash and wear" (no iron) cycles; where it
wants to cool the clothing down slowly, rather than going from a
real hot wash to an influx of real cold water.

Take care.

Ken

writes:

On page 4 of the English schematics I sent you which details the timer
sequence, at the bottom left, there are some faded word that says 1T/60
sec, i.e. 1 turn/min. Would that answer your question in regards to
whether the cam moves in 1 minute increments?

That would seem to be pretty definitive unless something external to the
timer (i.e., in the module) is supposed to hold up the timer for 45 seconds
each minute.

I still say if you can find someone who can test a timer by itself by just
powering the motor and seeing how long between clicks, that would clinch it.

Furthermore, I think that each square there represents 5 minutes. If I
added up all the squares for the first program which includes the
pre-wash, it'll amount to 135 minutes which is very close to the user
manual that indicates 2 hours 35 minutes, considering the water-fill
time, repeated rinse and drain. I assume the 135 minutes would be the
actual drum-turning time.

I agree on that. Even a no-dirt load needs to be drained properly.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam Goldwasser wrote:
writes:


On page 4 of the English schematics I sent you which details the timer
sequence, at the bottom left, there are some faded word that says 1T/60
sec, i.e. 1 turn/min. Would that answer your question in regards to
whether the cam moves in 1 minute increments?


That would seem to be pretty definitive unless something external to the
timer (i.e., in the module) is supposed to hold up the timer for 45 seconds
each minute.

I still say if you can find someone who can test a timer by itself by just
powering the motor and seeing how long between clicks, that would clinch it.


Furthermore, I think that each square there represents 5 minutes. If I
added up all the squares for the first program which includes the
pre-wash, it'll amount to 135 minutes which is very close to the user
manual that indicates 2 hours 35 minutes, considering the water-fill
time, repeated rinse and drain. I assume the 135 minutes would be the
actual drum-turning time.


I agree on that. Even a no-dirt load needs to be drained properly.


On that type of timer, the timer motor is usually wired through a pair
of the timers own contacts so that the timer pauses during the first
part of the fill - and on some machines, the initial part of the water
heating. The pressostat (water level switch) and/or the thermostats are
responsible for re applying power to the timer motor to move it on past
the pause state. The water is heated to a given temperature until the
thermostat closes, then the rest of the heat cycle is a timed event.
The drain cycles are just a timed event once the pressure switch opens.
If the water hasnt gone when the timer comes to move on, most machines
will stop. I am of course relating to UK machines here, I imagine a
machine for the French market will be the same.

I think neither of these things have any relevance to the machines problem.

Ron
--
Lune Valley Audio
Public address system
Hire, Sales, Repairs
www.lunevalleyaudio.com