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  #1   Report Post  
1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default How does a 110volt 2 speed motor work

I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I understood
how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher speed,
I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high suddenly.

Thanks in advance.


  #2   Report Post  
Tony Hwang
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1_Patriotic_Guy wrote:
I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I understood
how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher speed,
I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high suddenly.

Thanks in advance.


Hi,
Maybe the replacement is under powered? Lower Hp rating?
Try little heavier spec.'d one.
Tony
  #3   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I understood
how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher speed,
I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high suddenly.

Thanks in advance.


This is urtle.

The first mistake do it yourselfers make is to not use a OEM motor. If your
going to try out Universial motors on the spa. You need to look at all motors
and look to see that the R.P. M. , Amp draw, Horse power, Power factor , and
speed verses horse power matches. With all this in place you can use universal
motors and not go back to the original OEM motor.

Now one thing in this hunt for the right motor. You need to keep the original
motor for referrence in the future or at least keep the motor tag to use to know
what the original OEM motor was in the futrure.

Now you ask for a website to match up the motor that you have now. State the
brand and maybe the tag info and i can give you a website to match with.

TURTLE


  #4   Report Post  
1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the initial contact Urtle.
Wow -- All info on old and replacement motor is the same unless noted below:

1) I'm not good with acronyms, what is OEM?
2) Brand is Hayward (who uses a Smith motor) and adds their "wet-end" pump.
3) HP is 1.5
4) RPM is 3450 / 1725
5) Max amps on old is 15 / 3.5 on old; 12 / 3.1 on new
I still have the original motor, the electrical contacts carbon up and
over-heat when motor is run on high. The same thing happened with the
replacement after using the spa for 1 hour. Previously the old motor was
used for as long as 3 hours at once on high and performed well for ten
years. The low speed function of the motor only comes on when the
thermostat determmines more heat is needed.
"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I

understood
how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher

speed,
I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high

suddenly.

Thanks in advance.


This is urtle.

The first mistake do it yourselfers make is to not use a OEM motor. If

your
going to try out Universial motors on the spa. You need to look at all

motors
and look to see that the R.P. M. , Amp draw, Horse power, Power factor ,

and
speed verses horse power matches. With all this in place you can use

universal
motors and not go back to the original OEM motor.

Now one thing in this hunt for the right motor. You need to keep the

original
motor for referrence in the future or at least keep the motor tag to use

to know
what the original OEM motor was in the futrure.

Now you ask for a website to match up the motor that you have now. State

the
brand and maybe the tag info and i can give you a website to match with.

TURTLE




  #5   Report Post  
willshak
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1_Patriotic_Guy wrote:

Thanks for the initial contact Urtle.
Wow -- All info on old and replacement motor is the same unless noted below:

1) I'm not good with acronyms, what is OEM?


OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer. It means the part is the same
as was originally installed by the manufacturer, rather than some third
party manufacturer's almost-as-good-as replacement part.

2) Brand is Hayward (who uses a Smith motor) and adds their "wet-end" pump.
3) HP is 1.5
4) RPM is 3450 / 1725
5) Max amps on old is 15 / 3.5 on old; 12 / 3.1 on new
I still have the original motor, the electrical contacts carbon up and
over-heat when motor is run on high. The same thing happened with the
replacement after using the spa for 1 hour. Previously the old motor was
used for as long as 3 hours at once on high and performed well for ten
years. The low speed function of the motor only comes on when the
thermostat determmines more heat is needed.
"TURTLE" wrote in message
...


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
rthlink.net...


I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I


understood


how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher


speed,


I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high


suddenly.


Thanks in advance.



This is urtle.

The first mistake do it yourselfers make is to not use a OEM motor. If


your


going to try out Universial motors on the spa. You need to look at all


motors


and look to see that the R.P. M. , Amp draw, Horse power, Power factor ,


and


speed verses horse power matches. With all this in place you can use


universal


motors and not go back to the original OEM motor.

Now one thing in this hunt for the right motor. You need to keep the


original


motor for referrence in the future or at least keep the motor tag to use


to know


what the original OEM motor was in the futrure.

Now you ask for a website to match up the motor that you have now. State


the


brand and maybe the tag info and i can give you a website to match with.

TURTLE










  #6   Report Post  
Playintennis5274
 
Posts: n/a
Default

are you replacing the motor only? if yes, check the pump end is something stuck
in the impeller housing? you said the contacts get loaded w/ carbon, is your
heater on thed same circuit? and you prob have a blower for bubbles, shut
heater off and no bubbles see if your mtor still overheats.oem is" original
manufacurers equipment" alsoVERY IMPORTANT WHEN REPLACING MOTOR: CHECK THE
FRAME MIGHT SAY TEFC "totally enclosed fan cooled" and the rating is made for
continous duty or intermittent? is your motor in a non vented area?
  #7   Report Post  
Tony Hwang
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1_Patriotic_Guy wrote:

Thanks for the initial contact Urtle.
Wow -- All info on old and replacement motor is the same unless noted below:

1) I'm not good with acronyms, what is OEM?
2) Brand is Hayward (who uses a Smith motor) and adds their "wet-end" pump.
3) HP is 1.5
4) RPM is 3450 / 1725
5) Max amps on old is 15 / 3.5 on old; 12 / 3.1 on new


This looks ??? New one draws less current which means under powered in
general.
Try to find one with higher current value/Hp and rpm does not have to
exact match I guess.

I still have the original motor, the electrical contacts carbon up and
over-heat when motor is run on high. The same thing happened with the
replacement after using the spa for 1 hour. Previously the old motor was
used for as long as 3 hours at once on high and performed well for ten
years. The low speed function of the motor only comes on when the
thermostat determmines more heat is needed.
"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I


understood

how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher


speed,

I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high


suddenly.

Thanks in advance.


This is urtle.

The first mistake do it yourselfers make is to not use a OEM motor. If


your

going to try out Universial motors on the spa. You need to look at all


motors

and look to see that the R.P. M. , Amp draw, Horse power, Power factor ,


and

speed verses horse power matches. With all this in place you can use


universal

motors and not go back to the original OEM motor.

Now one thing in this hunt for the right motor. You need to keep the


original

motor for referrence in the future or at least keep the motor tag to use


to know

what the original OEM motor was in the futrure.

Now you ask for a website to match up the motor that you have now. State


the

brand and maybe the tag info and i can give you a website to match with.

TURTLE





  #8   Report Post  
Zypher
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Guy;

The speed is a standard - carbon build up on 'contacts' I'm guessing is the
contactor. You should expect the contacts to darken. Contactors are
designed to 'self clean.'

But Tony H. is right. You need to be in the same amp. draw as the original
and horsepower. Playin tennis is also correct. If you're pump is 'covered'
as inside the spa base for example, you're motor needs to have a high temp.
rating. Otherwise it will overheat, and have difficulty. There are motors
available that run in hotter environments.

If you don't know what the original motor called for, call the Manufacture
of the spa and they will either sell you the correct pump motor or give you
the spec. If you have the owner's manual, check it.

BTW: The motor you have is an A.O. SMITH. Popular for pump motor
applications.

--
Zyp
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news[email protected]...
1_Patriotic_Guy wrote:

Thanks for the initial contact Urtle.
Wow -- All info on old and replacement motor is the same unless noted

below:

1) I'm not good with acronyms, what is OEM?
2) Brand is Hayward (who uses a Smith motor) and adds their "wet-end"

pump.
3) HP is 1.5
4) RPM is 3450 / 1725
5) Max amps on old is 15 / 3.5 on old; 12 / 3.1 on new


This looks ??? New one draws less current which means under powered in
general.
Try to find one with higher current value/Hp and rpm does not have to
exact match I guess.

I still have the original motor, the electrical contacts carbon up and
over-heat when motor is run on high. The same thing happened with the
replacement after using the spa for 1 hour. Previously the old motor

was
used for as long as 3 hours at once on high and performed well for ten
years. The low speed function of the motor only comes on when the
thermostat determmines more heat is needed.
"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

I keep replacing the 2 speed motor for the water pump on my spa, the

new
ones keep over-heating. The original one lasted ten years. If I


understood

how the motor works in general, e.g. what changes to give it a higher


speed,

I might be able to figure out why I am burning up motors on high


suddenly.

Thanks in advance.


This is urtle.

The first mistake do it yourselfers make is to not use a OEM motor. If


your

going to try out Universial motors on the spa. You need to look at all


motors

and look to see that the R.P. M. , Amp draw, Horse power, Power factor ,


and

speed verses horse power matches. With all this in place you can use


universal

motors and not go back to the original OEM motor.

Now one thing in this hunt for the right motor. You need to keep the


original

motor for referrence in the future or at least keep the motor tag to use


to know

what the original OEM motor was in the futrure.

Now you ask for a website to match up the motor that you have now. State


the

brand and maybe the tag info and i can give you a website to match with.

TURTLE







  #9   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
k.net...
Thanks for the initial contact Urtle.
Wow -- All info on old and replacement motor is the same unless noted below:

1) I'm not good with acronyms, what is OEM?
2) Brand is Hayward (who uses a Smith motor) and adds their "wet-end" pump.
3) HP is 1.5
4) RPM is 3450 / 1725
5) Max amps on old is 15 / 3.5 on old; 12 / 3.1 on new
I still have the original motor, the electrical contacts carbon up and
over-heat when motor is run on high. The same thing happened with the
replacement after using the spa for 1 hour. Previously the old motor was
used for as long as 3 hours at once on high and performed well for ten
years. The low speed function of the motor only comes on when the
thermostat determmines more heat is needed.


This is Turtle.

Like others said OEM is Original Equipment of Manufactor. THE SAME MOTOR.

You have a smaller motor as looking at the Max. Amp draw with even the Horse
Power being the same. You have a 20% less horse power or ability on 220 volt
service and a 11% less ability or horse power on 120 volt service. Look at the
old motor and see if you can get a horse power reading off it. If not you have
to go by Max. Amp draw for replacing with. Not all 1.5 H.P. motor are the same
in ability. There is Power factors to concider , R.P.M. , and Totally close or
open face for cooling the motor. These things can be a big difference.

Look at the Wiring setting for the speed to be 3,450 RPM's or the 1,725 RPM's.
If the motor is to be set at 1725 rpm's for the pump on low and 3450 rpm's on
high. Look at the thermostat about turning on two speeds at one time. Anytime
you turn on 2 speeds at one time. It will run hot and drop out. This is a very
long shot and just saying it for good measure.

Well what i will say is it sounds like and looks like you have a under powered
motor and asking more out of it than it can put out by looking at the /Max. Amp
draw and knowing nothing else.

Look you need to find the Model number of the old motor and get a OEM from your
supplier which they can order for you. Now you can call the maker of the spa [
like others have said ] to get a motor from them or get the spec.s of the motor
to get from your supplier. Here is what you need if you don't get a model number
of the old motor.

Horse Power -------------
R.P.M's ---- You have it already
Max. Amp draw -- You have it already .
Power factor of motor ------------------
Totally sealed motor or open face for cooling the motor -----------------
This should do it.


Now here is a wild one for good measure. take your old motor to a motor shop and
have them put new bearing in it if it is not burnt up. This is not a big cost
item to do.

TURTLE

P.S. Power factor is the ability to run at above the stated horse power for a
long period of time. If the factor is say 1.25 . You can get 25% more horse
power out of the motor and not hurt it.


  #10   Report Post  
1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Turtle,
Thanks for the initial lesson. I am trying to fill in the blanks and
learn so that I can use my spa for years to come.
1) The new motor is totally sealed as was the old. The plate on the new
motor says Type = CSM. I assume this stands for Continuos Service Motor?
Time = CONT I assume this is short for continuous?
2) The plate on the new motor also says: ENCL = DP, Form = PHM, Code = A,
Insulation Class = B, AMB = 40 degrees C Are these important? Can you
educate me on any of these that are.
3) On the new motor it says HP = 1.5 SPL If SPL is important, what is it?
4) For my knowledge/understanding; What is changed to make my motor run at
high speed (looking at it, the coils and windings look the same as a single
speed motor)? The thermostat turns the pump on low when it senses heat is
needed. High is only achieved by pushing a button on the user control panel
on top of the spa. But what changes to make the motor run on high. When I
wired it I connected red (low speed), black (high speed), white (common) and
green (ground) wires. Yet the old a new motors clearly say they are 110
volts. I used to think changing the voltage or do I mean amps? (e.g.
electricity flowed through just the red wire on low, 110 volts, and both the
red and black wire, 220 volts, on high) changed the speed but now assume I
was very wrong on this. Could you correct my thinking on this please.
5) If I understand you correctly, even though the plate on both motors says
1.5 horsepower, my new 110volt motor gets 11% less HP than my old because
the amps is lower, 3.1 on new, 3.46 on old? I assume there is an equation
for this, may I know it? (3.46 - 3.1) / 3.1 = .11 Is that the equation?
6) I understand you when you say Power factor is the ability to run at above
the stated horse power for a long period of time. If the factor is say 1.25
.. You can get 25% more horse
power out of the motor and not hurt it.
I don't see power factor on the plate. How do I find out the power factor

of the motor?

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
k.net...
Thanks for the initial contact Urtle.
Wow -- All info on old and replacement motor is the same unless noted

below:

1) I'm not good with acronyms, what is OEM?
2) Brand is Hayward (who uses a Smith motor) and adds their "wet-end"

pump.
3) HP is 1.5
4) RPM is 3450 / 1725
5) Max amps on old is 15 / 3.5 on old; 12 / 3.1 on new
I still have the original motor, the electrical contacts carbon up and
over-heat when motor is run on high. The same thing happened with the
replacement after using the spa for 1 hour. Previously the old motor

was
used for as long as 3 hours at once on high and performed well for ten
years. The low speed function of the motor only comes on when the
thermostat determmines more heat is needed.


This is Turtle.

Like others said OEM is Original Equipment of Manufactor. THE SAME MOTOR.

You have a smaller motor as looking at the Max. Amp draw with even the

Horse
Power being the same. You have a 20% less horse power or ability on 220

volt
service and a 11% less ability or horse power on 120 volt service. Look at

the
old motor and see if you can get a horse power reading off it. If not you

have
to go by Max. Amp draw for replacing with. Not all 1.5 H.P. motor are the

same
in ability. There is Power factors to concider , R.P.M. , and Totally

close or
open face for cooling the motor. These things can be a big difference.

Look at the Wiring setting for the speed to be 3,450 RPM's or the 1,725

RPM's.
If the motor is to be set at 1725 rpm's for the pump on low and 3450 rpm's

on
high. Look at the thermostat about turning on two speeds at one time.

Anytime
you turn on 2 speeds at one time. It will run hot and drop out. This is a

very
long shot and just saying it for good measure.

Well what i will say is it sounds like and looks like you have a under

powered
motor and asking more out of it than it can put out by looking at the

/Max. Amp
draw and knowing nothing else.

Look you need to find the Model number of the old motor and get a OEM from

your
supplier which they can order for you. Now you can call the maker of the

spa [
like others have said ] to get a motor from them or get the spec.s of the

motor
to get from your supplier. Here is what you need if you don't get a model

number
of the old motor.

Horse Power -------------
R.P.M's ---- You have it already
Max. Amp draw -- You have it already .
Power factor of motor ------------------
Totally sealed motor or open face for cooling the motor -----------------
This should do it.


Now here is a wild one for good measure. take your old motor to a motor

shop and
have them put new bearing in it if it is not burnt up. This is not a big

cost
item to do.

TURTLE

P.S. Power factor is the ability to run at above the stated horse power

for a
long period of time. If the factor is say 1.25 . You can get 25% more

horse
power out of the motor and not hurt it.






  #11   Report Post  
1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message news:...
Turtle,
Thanks for the initial lesson. I am trying to fill in the blanks and
learn so that I can use my spa for years to come.
1) The new motor is totally sealed as was the old. The plate on the new
motor says Type = CSM. I assume this stands for Continuos Service Motor?
Time = CONT I assume this is short for continuous?
2) The plate on the new motor also says: ENCL = DP, Form = PHM, Code =

A,
Insulation Class = B, AMB = 40 degrees C Are these important? Can

you
educate me on any of these that are.
3) On the new motor it says HP = 1.5 SPL If SPL is important, what is

it?
4) For my knowledge/understanding; What is changed to make my motor run at
high speed (looking at it, the coils and windings look the same as a

single
speed motor)? The thermostat turns the pump on low when it senses heat is
needed. High is only achieved by pushing a button on the user control

panel
on top of the spa. But what changes to make the motor run on high. When

I
wired it I connected red (low speed), black (high speed), white (common)

and
green (ground) wires. Yet the old a new motors clearly say they are 110
volts. I used to think changing the voltage or do I mean amps? (e.g.
electricity flowed through just the red wire on low, 110 volts, and both

the
red and black wire, 220 volts, on high) changed the speed but now assume I
was very wrong on this. Could you correct my thinking on this please.
5) If I understand you correctly, even though the plate on both motors

says
1.5 horsepower, my new 110volt motor gets 11% less HP than my old because
the amps is lower, 3.1 on new, 3.46 on old? I assume there is an equation
for this, may I know it? (3.46 - 3.1) / 3.1 = .11 Is that the equation?
6) I understand you when you say Power factor is the ability to run at

above
the stated horse power for a long period of time. If the factor is say

1.25
. You can get 25% more horse
power out of the motor and not hurt it.
I don't see power factor on the plate. How do I find out the power

factor
of the motor?

Thanks in advance.



  #12   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
. net...
Turtle,
Thanks for the initial lesson. I am trying to fill in the blanks and
learn so that I can use my spa for years to come.
1) The new motor is totally sealed as was the old. The plate on the new
motor says Type = CSM. I assume this stands for Continuos Service Motor?
Time = CONT I assume this is short for continuous?
2) The plate on the new motor also says: ENCL = DP, Form = PHM, Code = A,
Insulation Class = B, AMB = 40 degrees C Are these important? Can you
educate me on any of these that are.
3) On the new motor it says HP = 1.5 SPL If SPL is important, what is it?
4) For my knowledge/understanding; What is changed to make my motor run at
high speed (looking at it, the coils and windings look the same as a single
speed motor)? The thermostat turns the pump on low when it senses heat is
needed. High is only achieved by pushing a button on the user control panel
on top of the spa. But what changes to make the motor run on high. When I
wired it I connected red (low speed), black (high speed), white (common) and
green (ground) wires. Yet the old a new motors clearly say they are 110
volts. I used to think changing the voltage or do I mean amps? (e.g.
electricity flowed through just the red wire on low, 110 volts, and both the
red and black wire, 220 volts, on high) changed the speed but now assume I
was very wrong on this. Could you correct my thinking on this please.
5) If I understand you correctly, even though the plate on both motors says
1.5 horsepower, my new 110volt motor gets 11% less HP than my old because
the amps is lower, 3.1 on new, 3.46 on old? I assume there is an equation
for this, may I know it? (3.46 - 3.1) / 3.1 = .11 Is that the equation?
6) I understand you when you say Power factor is the ability to run at above
the stated horse power for a long period of time. If the factor is say 1.25
. You can get 25% more horse
power out of the motor and not hurt it.
I don't see power factor on the plate. How do I find out the power factor

of the motor?


This is Turtle.

We are getting very complex here over nothing.

1) All 1.5 horse power motors are not all equal. You get a motor with the same
horse power to replace it with and then see if the amp draw on the voltage you
choose is up to the original amperage as the old one. You must match up the
horse power and the amperage and then it will cut out you tring to figure out
the power factors and weither it will work or not.

2) You have not stated the horse power of the old one or the new one above
here and you may not be dealing with a 1.5 horse power motor to be replaced.
Which motor states that it is a 1.5 horse power -- the old or the new? Without
the stated horse power of both you can just go by amp draw to match it up.

3) As I see it you just have a too small of a motor to handle the job by
looking at the amp draw. You can have more amp draw but not less. Amp draw
equates to horse power in the world of motors. Match up the Amp draw / R.P.M.
Speed / Voltage and you really don't care about the horse power.

4) Most original manufactors of spa's order their motor to be put on the tube
with out the power factor stated on them for with out it. You get into trouble
finding a replacement like is happening here. Now if you match the amp draw up ,
you don't care about the power factor for your setting the load of the motor
back where it should be. The power factor is reflected in the amp draw amperage
stated on the motor. Match the amp draw and the power factor is not needed.

A example here some 1.5 H.P. motor may have a amp draw of 5 amps on 220 volt
service and other may have amp draw of 3.1 amps on 220 volt service. This
raising and lowering of the amperage on the 1.5 H.P. motor which amp draw
rasting on the motor is a reflection of the power factor stated in the amp draw
of the motor.

Don't get complex here and just install a replacement more with a amp draw the
same or a little more to make it work fine. Your old motor has a amp draw of 3.6
amps on 220 volt service. Get another motor with a amp draw of 3.6 amps or more.
Just get you a amp draw of 4 or 5 amp draw on 220 volt service and just do fine.
The Horse power may very from one motor to the other but the amp draw tell the
tale of it working or not.

The way you stated as the less ability of the old and the new motor is very much
true and is the way you figure if you short on ability of the old and new motor.
Your 11% short on amp draw to pull the load. Don't '' never '' expect a 3.1 amp
draw motor to pull a 3.6 amp draw load. You can use high amp draw motor to pull
the load but not less amp draw motor to pull the load.

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill here. Match the amp draw / r.p.m.'s /
voltage ,and be done with it. If you have these three things you don't care what
the horse power is. The Horse power rating is just to give the customer a ''
ideal '' of how much power they need and to be exact , you go to the amp draw /
speed / r.p.m.'s.

TURTLE



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