I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like: http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give the
"instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current draw
going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you have your
foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot. You
don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD. Look
at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass production.
(Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect! lol) If it doesn't
exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills to create four of
these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long. I
can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there with the
LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an EVENLY DIFFUSED
look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
brakes.

Ideas???

Thanks,
-Steve

Hello, Steve!
You wrote on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:31:23 GMT:

ST This is what the rear end looks like:
http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

ST I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give
ST the "instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the
ST current draw going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on
ST and you have your foot on the brakes.

ST I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
ST Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot.
ST You don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

ST So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD.
ST Look at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass
ST production. (Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect!
ST lol) If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering
ST skills to create four of these.

ST http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

ST The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly
ST like this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10"
ST long. I can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in
ST there with the LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would
ST give an EVENLY DIFFUSED look to both the tail lamp lighting and the
ST lighting when you hit the brakes.

ST Ideas???


You can buy off the shelf replacements for the 1157's these use a lot less
current. It's just got to be easier.

check this link out
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A2461221C


With best regards, 3T39. E-mail:

Hello, 3T39!
You wrote to Steve TR on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:42:18 +0100:

"You can buy off the shelf replacements for the 1157's"

Sorry,
just noticed you already knew this. Dooh!
I didn't read the whole post and jumped to the wrong conclusion.




With best regards, 3T39. E-mail:

Steve TR wrote:
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like: http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give the
"instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current draw
going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you have your
foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot. You
don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD. Look
at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass production.
(Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect! lol) If it doesn't
exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills to create four of
these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long. I
can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there with the
LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an EVENLY DIFFUSED
look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
brakes.

Ideas???

Thanks,
-Steve

Hi Steve...

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Take care.

Ken

I appreciate the advice.

I actually already have 2 of these "drop in" bayonet replacements and while
they are okay for the "casual user" (lol) I'm quite picky and don't want to
look like the rest of the import kiddies with the funky looking LED tail
lamps only lighting up in small spots.

I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look and it
seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense will work
wonderfully. Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it would be all
that expensive... You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of LEDs and
solder away. I just suck at soldering. LOL


"3T39" wrote in message
...
Hello, 3T39!
You wrote to Steve TR on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:42:18 +0100:

"You can buy off the shelf replacements for the 1157's"

Sorry,
just noticed you already knew this. Dooh!
I didn't read the whole post and jumped to the wrong conclusion.




With best regards, 3T39. E-mail:

I appreciate the advice. As far as the legality of it, well, oh well...
I'm not worried with it enough to go look up lighting regulations, but I'm
thinking that as long as it lights up in a manner close enough to the
original, I'll be okay.

It sure can't be worse than all of the imports/ricers/etc running around
with blue/green/red/amber LEDs and those funky "Altezza" tail lamps they
think is "so cool."


-Steve



"Ken Weitzel" wrote in message
news:McS8f.338861$1i.173284@pd7tw2no...


Steve TR wrote:
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a
LOT of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded
sockets when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like: http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give
the "instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current
draw going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you
have your foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot.
You don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD.
Look at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass
production. (Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect! lol)
If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills
to create four of these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long.
I can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there
with the LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an
EVENLY DIFFUSED look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when
you hit the brakes.

Ideas???

Thanks,
-Steve

Hi Steve...

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Take care.

Ken

What is the current draw for one 1157 bulb?
What is the current draw for 19X5= 95 high output LEDS?

Steve TR wrote:
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like: http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give the
"instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current draw
going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you have your
foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot. You
don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD. Look
at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass production.
(Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect! lol) If it doesn't
exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills to create four of
these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long. I
can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there with the
LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an EVENLY DIFFUSED
look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
brakes.

Ideas???

Thanks,
-Steve
Hello Steve,
Not sure if this does exist comercially, but I'll make some up for you
if you don't find any from a comercial source.
Regards
Robert
http//notrocketscience.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/

Steve -

I don't know of anywhere that mass produces something like this, but
then again I don't really know anything about replacements like this, I
just happened to run across your post.

I can see what you want, but I think you will probably need to go
through a few prototypes before you get what you want.

I'd recc. you get some breadboard, something like:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in... ntPage=search

or google breadboard and look for something else.

You can then cut the board to the dimensions you need, and start
prototyping.

Soldering really isn't that difficult, and this would be an ideal
project to learn that skill.

Other than that, maybe post over in sci.electronics.design for some
other ideas.

Seems like it might be a fun project, if nothing else.

Good luck,

Matt

Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
what happens...

Thanks,
-Steve

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Steve -

I don't know of anywhere that mass produces something like this, but
then again I don't really know anything about replacements like this, I
just happened to run across your post.

I can see what you want, but I think you will probably need to go
through a few prototypes before you get what you want.

I'd recc. you get some breadboard, something like:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in... ntPage=search

or google breadboard and look for something else.

You can then cut the board to the dimensions you need, and start
prototyping.

Soldering really isn't that difficult, and this would be an ideal
project to learn that skill.

Other than that, maybe post over in sci.electronics.design for some
other ideas.

Seems like it might be a fun project, if nothing else.

Good luck,

Matt

Steve TR wrote:
Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
what happens...

Thanks,
-Steve



Yeah, breadboard, perfboard, vectorboard, it's all pretty similar stuff.

Check out here for LEDs, I've gotten some pretty good deals.
http://www.surplusled.com/

Steve,

Glad to help.

Also, google 'how to solder electronics' or something similar, you will
find plenty of tutorials to help you get started with the selction of
the proper iron and solder, (some even have viddys you can watch) and
then it's just practice.

The only other thing I would be concerned with, and it's a minor
concern, but I would guess that once you get to a final version you are
ready to install, it will be subject to the same corrosion/vibration
factors as the bulbs you are replacing; and also you will want the back
of the circuit to be well insulated from touching the car frame. I know
that the circuit boards in my washer and dryer are sealed in some sort
of epoxy to protect them from corrosion, perhaps others can point you
in a direction for some sort of epoxy or enclosure to protect the
finished product.

Matt




Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find
the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.


I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and
see
what happens...


Thanks,
-Steve

If I do come up with some sort of raw circuit board with hundreds of tiny
solder joints on the rear, I was going to cover it in a layer of silicone or
some sort of nonconductive insulator to help keep moisture out, although
these tail lights seal pretty tightly against weather and dust.

We shall see what happens.


"Matt" wrote in message
ups.com...
Steve,

Glad to help.

Also, google 'how to solder electronics' or something similar, you will
find plenty of tutorials to help you get started with the selction of
the proper iron and solder, (some even have viddys you can watch) and
then it's just practice.

The only other thing I would be concerned with, and it's a minor
concern, but I would guess that once you get to a final version you are
ready to install, it will be subject to the same corrosion/vibration
factors as the bulbs you are replacing; and also you will want the back
of the circuit to be well insulated from touching the car frame. I know
that the circuit boards in my washer and dryer are sealed in some sort
of epoxy to protect them from corrosion, perhaps others can point you
in a direction for some sort of epoxy or enclosure to protect the
finished product.

Matt




Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find
the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.


I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and
see
what happens...


Thanks,
-Steve

Make sure you go for superbrites if you are replacing the lamps.
"Ordinary" red LEDs are in the 10-30 mCd range. You should be shopping
in the 500+ mCd range. If you get the 10 Cd ones you may end up with
something that will blind other motorists at night, but you can always
drop the current a little. Each LED will draw about 30-70 mA at around
2V.

You will probably end up wiring them in series-parallel, and you will
find in that case that some LEDs are a little more "greedy" than
others, and will draw all of the current off, so if you plan to use a
series-parallel arrangement, buy extras and then test all of them to
match voltages.

If you don't want to be bothered with all of that, you can just use
more resistors.

In message ,
Steve TR writes
I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look
and it seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense will
work wonderfully. Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it would
be all that expensive... You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of
LEDs and solder away. I just suck at soldering. LOL

OK, here's how you do it.

You take the lens dimensions and create a PCB outline to fit using a PCB
CAD program. You then populate the entire area with the pads required
for the LEDs and matching series resistors, and connect the pads with
tracks to make series multiples of four LEDs and a resistor per circuit
across common power bus tracks. Remember to allow for fixings to fit
the final PCB into the lens or base, and allow a couple of big pads for
attaching the connection wires. If you have multiple circuits then the
LEDs can be wired in clusters, possibly with diodes to allow individual
or multiple groups to be used from a common switch line.

Now print the finished PCB artwork onto a transparent or translucent
medium and expose a piece of photo sensitive PCB material in a suitable
UV exposure unit. The PCB can then be developed in an alkaline
developer based on Sodium Hydroxide, then rinsed and etched in a hot
bath of Ferric Chloride with air being blown through it to cause
circulation and agitation of the etchant. Once etched you can then hand
drill the several hundred 1mm holes required for the components with a
small hand-held drill and then crop the PCB to size and shape before
mounting the resistors on the back, cropping the leads at the front and
then populating the entire front surface with high output (635nm?) LEDs.
If using superflux these are pretty good at self levelling, but 5mm LEDs
are best having their anodes soldered first then hand levelled
individually before having the cathodes soldered. The choice of
resistor value can be calculated as 13.8 - (4*LED-Vf) / LED-I (20mA for
5mm or 50mA for superflux). You can calculate the appropriate power
rating for the resistors by multiplying the voltage dropped across them
by the current and rounding up to the nearest power rating.

Now simply pop into your lens and bingo, there you go.

--
Clive Mitchell
http:/www.bigclive.com

How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs? Sure it
would take more than just spraying some white paint over them but
doesn't seem insurmountable... some thick white transluscent plastic
lens, clear plastic lens with bunch of metal flakes suspended in it,
little piece of foil on tips of the lenses and them white material at
base fo lens so light bounces off the lens back onto the white backing,
I dunno. How bout just clear lens that spreads the light out like a
projector? Maybe once you diffused them perfectly then you'd find out
they don't have enough light output anyway.

I've thought of that and might try it.

Because...

The tail lamp assembly already has a fresnel (or is it lenticular?) lens in
there. It does a wonderful job of diffusing light when the light source is
smack dab in the center of the fresnel lens.

-Steve



"frenchy" wrote in message
ups.com...
How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs? Sure it
would take more than just spraying some white paint over them but
doesn't seem insurmountable... some thick white transluscent plastic
lens, clear plastic lens with bunch of metal flakes suspended in it,
little piece of foil on tips of the lenses and them white material at
base fo lens so light bounces off the lens back onto the white backing,
I dunno. How bout just clear lens that spreads the light out like a
projector? Maybe once you diffused them perfectly then you'd find out
they don't have enough light output anyway.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Ken Weitzel wrote:

I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a
LOT of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and
corroded sockets when you hit the brakes.

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Ken, without going into the excruciating detail I've already covered
this point on in the past, that is not correct.

DS

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, frenchy wrote:

How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?

The "1157 LED bulbs" don't put out nearly enough total light, period. No
diffuser is going to help that.

Steve TR wrote:
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like: http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give the
"instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current draw
going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you have your
foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot. You
don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD. Look
at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass production.
(Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect! lol) If it doesn't
exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills to create four of
these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long. I
can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there with the
LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an EVENLY DIFFUSED
look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
brakes.

Ideas???

Thanks,
-Steve



Email me off the group, I might have something close to what you're
looking for and/or need...

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:01:24 GMT, "Steve TR" wrote:

I appreciate the advice. As far as the legality of it, well, oh well...
I'm not worried with it enough to go look up lighting regulations, but I'm
thinking that as long as it lights up in a manner close enough to the
original, I'll be okay.

Except if you ever have the bad luck to be rear-ended. If the guy that
hit your car (who might really have been the one at fault) notices that
the remains of the rear lights are home-made and not DoT approved then
all he needs is a lawyer. Hell, he'd probably sue you for damages. Your
insurance company might also be interested in finding a way to avoid
paying. They're in business to make the stockholders happy, not you.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

I understand this. I'm not looking for legal advice.


"Rich Webb" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:01:24 GMT, "Steve TR" wrote:

I appreciate the advice. As far as the legality of it, well, oh well...
I'm not worried with it enough to go look up lighting regulations, but I'm
thinking that as long as it lights up in a manner close enough to the
original, I'll be okay.

Except if you ever have the bad luck to be rear-ended. If the guy that
hit your car (who might really have been the one at fault) notices that
the remains of the rear lights are home-made and not DoT approved then
all he needs is a lawyer. Hell, he'd probably sue you for damages. Your
insurance company might also be interested in finding a way to avoid
paying. They're in business to make the stockholders happy, not you.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Steve TR wrote:

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long.

Your individual emitters designated as tail or brake: Wrong way to do it.
You really want all your emitters to be active in both modes. There are
readily available PWM circuits for the dim "tail" mode, and then you just
shoot full power to 'em for the bright brake/turn mode.

http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=1&fId=57 (The one I'd recommend
is the 36-emitter unit P/N M417RP he
http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm...Id=57&pId=1478 ) They're 4"
round, and you could simply line 'em up side by side by each, spaced about
3/4" or so away from the inner surface of the car's lenses. Dual-intensity
capability built right in, on all emitters, and these guys are BRIGHT.

To reduce the appearance of discrete circular areas of light, I'd obtain
some diamond-pattern fluorescent ceiling light diffuser material and place
a single thickness of it right up against the inner surface of the car's
lenses.

If you gotta have rectangular, there is an LED Model 45 from Truck-Lite.
3-13/32" by 5-5/16", P/N 45252R, e.g.
http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0812540 (Truck-Lite's own site
is down at the moment).

These "full-pattern" items cram-packed with emitters are the better way to
go, compared to the units which use fewer emitters (5 to 8, typically)
with fresnel optics to spread the light.

(Sure, it can be fun to start from scratch using nothing more than
perfboard and raw LED emitters, but the optics make a real problem -- they
cannot effectively be crafted in your workshop -- and these modules are
inexpensive enough that you can pick 'em up, install 'em, and then move on
to other things.)

You will need a different turn signal flasher. I recommend an Ideal EL-12C
electronic heavy-duty plug-in flasher. Nice loud click, and it won't care
that the load has suddenly got a lot lighter. The stock flasher won't
work, because it is load-sensitive.

For your next trick:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ys/relays.html and
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html

;-)

DS

'Generic PC boards' I think you mean perf. board, just a rectangular PC
board, with rows of holes pre-drilled and pads/traces on the back.

You might want to go to a junkyard and see if you can get your hands on a
late-model Cadillac taillight assembly, they use LED's just as you are
wanting to do. Maybe it will help you with the engineering.

"Steve TR" wrote in message
...
Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
what happens...

Thanks,
-Steve

"Steve TR" wrote in message
...
Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
what happens...

Maybe you can just trim one of these down...
http://www.alltronics.com/Light_Sources.htm

The arrow is already rectangular.

This http://www.alltronics.com/images/23L002.jpg has 18 real bright leds in
a pattern..

I knew your name would pop up eventually with loads of flawless advice.
THANK YOU!

Looking at the websites you provided, I think I can easily adapt some of the
products listed to fit my needs. And as far as a diffuser goes, each tail
lamp already has a full width clear fresnel (?) lens in there behind the
outer red lens. I found that by sticking a single LED flashlight in the
center on the lens, it would illuminate the entire lens evenly. Dim, but it
was fully lit. So one of these round or rectagular complete LED lamp
assemblies in each tail light section would work great. I could get away
with four of them I believe, maybe six, or even if I have to use eight, the
current draw would still be less than what I'm having with eight 1157's all
lit up.

And yep, thermal flasher won't work. I've already switched to an electronic
"heavy duty" flasher just for the shear loudness of it. It's a convertible
and so there is wind noise... It's nice to be able to hear the flasher
ticking.

THANKS AGAIN!

-Steve


"Daniel J. Stern" wrote in message
.umich.edu...
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Steve TR wrote:

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long.

Your individual emitters designated as tail or brake: Wrong way to do it.
You really want all your emitters to be active in both modes. There are
readily available PWM circuits for the dim "tail" mode, and then you just
shoot full power to 'em for the bright brake/turn mode.

http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=1&fId=57 (The one I'd recommend
is the 36-emitter unit P/N M417RP he
http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm...Id=57&pId=1478 ) They're 4"
round, and you could simply line 'em up side by side by each, spaced about
3/4" or so away from the inner surface of the car's lenses. Dual-intensity
capability built right in, on all emitters, and these guys are BRIGHT.

To reduce the appearance of discrete circular areas of light, I'd obtain
some diamond-pattern fluorescent ceiling light diffuser material and place
a single thickness of it right up against the inner surface of the car's
lenses.

If you gotta have rectangular, there is an LED Model 45 from Truck-Lite.
3-13/32" by 5-5/16", P/N 45252R, e.g.
http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0812540 (Truck-Lite's own site
is down at the moment).

These "full-pattern" items cram-packed with emitters are the better way to
go, compared to the units which use fewer emitters (5 to 8, typically)
with fresnel optics to spread the light.

(Sure, it can be fun to start from scratch using nothing more than
perfboard and raw LED emitters, but the optics make a real problem -- they
cannot effectively be crafted in your workshop -- and these modules are
inexpensive enough that you can pick 'em up, install 'em, and then move on
to other things.)

You will need a different turn signal flasher. I recommend an Ideal EL-12C
electronic heavy-duty plug-in flasher. Nice loud click, and it won't care
that the load has suddenly got a lot lighter. The stock flasher won't
work, because it is load-sensitive.

For your next trick:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ys/relays.html and
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html

;-)

DS

"Bob" wrote in message
...

"Steve TR" wrote in message
...
Hey, thanks for the advice. I had no idea what to search for to find the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together. maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
what happens...

Maybe you can just trim one of these down...
http://www.alltronics.com/Light_Sources.htm

The arrow is already rectangular.

This http://www.alltronics.com/images/23L002.jpg has 18 real bright leds
in a pattern..
Here's the full list.... http://www.robotics.com/surplus.html

In article ,
says...
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like: http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things. The first is to give the
"instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current draw
going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you have your
foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot. You
don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD. Look
at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass production.
(Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect! lol) If it doesn't
exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills to create four of
these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long. I
can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there with the
LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an EVENLY DIFFUSED
look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
brakes.

One issue with many LED replacements is that they generally only have
LED's pointing one way, with some also having a few sideways LED's. The
main problem is that there may be none pointing toward the rear, which
would bounce light off the reflector, giving a broader band of light.

Maybe if you could find a version with a wide distribution of light,
along with some of the diffusion techniques posted by others, to get a
more incandescent-looking pattern.

Also, if there is such a thing as a 'short' LED version, it may help
by keeping the light source further away from the car's lens, giving the
light more time to spread. Remember that with an incandescent, the
filament is in the middle of the bulb, whereas those LED's look like the
light comes right out at the end of a unit almost the same size as an
1157.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.att.net/~andyross

Clive Mitchell wrote:
In message ,
Steve TR writes

I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look
and it seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense
will work wonderfully. Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it
would be all that expensive... You can buy generic blank PCBs and a
box of LEDs and solder away. I just suck at soldering. LOL


OK, here's how you do it.

You take the lens dimensions and create a PCB outline to fit using a PCB
CAD program. You then populate the entire area with the pads required
for the LEDs and matching series resistors, and connect the pads with
tracks to make series multiples of four LEDs and a resistor per circuit
across common power bus tracks. Remember to allow for fixings to fit
the final PCB into the lens or base, and allow a couple of big pads for
attaching the connection wires. If you have multiple circuits then the
LEDs can be wired in clusters, possibly with diodes to allow individual
or multiple groups to be used from a common switch line.

Now print the finished PCB artwork onto a transparent or translucent
medium and expose a piece of photo sensitive PCB material in a suitable
UV exposure unit. The PCB can then be developed in an alkaline
developer based on Sodium Hydroxide, then rinsed and etched in a hot
bath of Ferric Chloride with air being blown through it to cause
circulation and agitation of the etchant. Once etched you can then hand
drill the several hundred 1mm holes required for the components with a
small hand-held drill and then crop the PCB to size and shape before
mounting the resistors on the back, cropping the leads at the front and
then populating the entire front surface with high output (635nm?) LEDs.
If using superflux these are pretty good at self levelling, but 5mm LEDs
are best having their anodes soldered first then hand levelled
individually before having the cathodes soldered. The choice of
resistor value can be calculated as 13.8 - (4*LED-Vf) / LED-I (20mA for
5mm or 50mA for superflux). You can calculate the appropriate power
rating for the resistors by multiplying the voltage dropped across them
by the current and rounding up to the nearest power rating.

Now simply pop into your lens and bingo, there you go.



Seems like it'd be FAR easier for the novice to use perfboard, at least
for the prototype, then if a PCB is designed use one of the online board
houses that will professionally make the PCBs, the end product is far
nicer for a lot less effort.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:54:52 GMT, Ken Weitzel
wrote:

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Take care.

Ken

And, what is the law?

Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and
I can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them.

I have an interest in reducing my motorcycle's current usage - and
making myself more visible. LEDs can do it, but I wonder about the
legality (since the DOT has taken 30+ years to accept that halogen
lights are better than "sealed beams" and) I know LED's can make a
big difference in visibility. - seems to me it is just a matter of
waiting (should I live that long) untill the LED lobbyists pay more
than the incandescent lobbyists. And we, the people, might be able to
choose.

I think the bottom line is safety. LED's can do it better than
incandescents - but not in a cost competive way (if one happens to be
a detroit mogul) so, we have to wait until Detroit allows us this
safety feature . . .

Sealed beams were a great improvement over polished silvered iron
reflectors - in the 30's- - and so the law was passed - - Halogen
lights came along in the 60/70s and could project more usable light
where it was needed and not cause glare to oncomming headlights - so
the Europeans had them and the US had to wait until General Electric
could develop halogen (sealed beam) headlights (that threw more light
up in the air than directly ahead). unitl the 80's

When GE got out of the market - auto lighting was more or less for
safety. But there's sitll the spector of some nanny lobbyist out
there to make us safe (in the corporatetly acceptible way).

"I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Me too.

Then I see celebrities breaking the law. and president's since Nixon,
and presidents circumventing the Consitution since I was born and I
have to wonder what good is the "rule of law?" It is a matter of what
I can get away with - not what is legal.

So how bad can LED lights be?

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Just for closure...

Here is a photo of one of the disassembled tail lamp sections.

http://216.110.197.146/taillamp.jpg

After poking around with a small LED flashlight and the clear inner fresnel
lens, I really think I need to purchase a handful of the round LED lamps you
suggested. One of those pre-fabbed tail lamps at the right spot on that
lens will make a LOT of light that is evenly dispersed.

Plus, it's all wired and already made to withstand the elements. I can pop
them in there, fill the old lamp socket holes with rubber grommets, and be
done.

Also, I never realized that the LEDs actually dimmed for tail versus brake
lights. I just thought there were just more or less of them illuminated as
needed.

So I'll give it a go with the standard round LED lamps you suggest are very
bright.

Thanks,
-Steve


"Daniel J. Stern" wrote in message
.umich.edu...
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Steve TR wrote:

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long.

Your individual emitters designated as tail or brake: Wrong way to do it.
You really want all your emitters to be active in both modes. There are
readily available PWM circuits for the dim "tail" mode, and then you just
shoot full power to 'em for the bright brake/turn mode.

http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=1&fId=57 (The one I'd recommend
is the 36-emitter unit P/N M417RP he
http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm...Id=57&pId=1478 ) They're 4"
round, and you could simply line 'em up side by side by each, spaced about
3/4" or so away from the inner surface of the car's lenses. Dual-intensity
capability built right in, on all emitters, and these guys are BRIGHT.

To reduce the appearance of discrete circular areas of light, I'd obtain
some diamond-pattern fluorescent ceiling light diffuser material and place
a single thickness of it right up against the inner surface of the car's
lenses.

If you gotta have rectangular, there is an LED Model 45 from Truck-Lite.
3-13/32" by 5-5/16", P/N 45252R, e.g.
http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0812540 (Truck-Lite's own site
is down at the moment).

These "full-pattern" items cram-packed with emitters are the better way to
go, compared to the units which use fewer emitters (5 to 8, typically)
with fresnel optics to spread the light.

(Sure, it can be fun to start from scratch using nothing more than
perfboard and raw LED emitters, but the optics make a real problem -- they
cannot effectively be crafted in your workshop -- and these modules are
inexpensive enough that you can pick 'em up, install 'em, and then move on
to other things.)

You will need a different turn signal flasher. I recommend an Ideal EL-12C
electronic heavy-duty plug-in flasher. Nice loud click, and it won't care
that the load has suddenly got a lot lighter. The stock flasher won't
work, because it is load-sensitive.

For your next trick:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...ys/relays.html and
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html

;-)

DS

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, default wrote:

Ken Weitzel wrote:

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

And, what is the law?

Varies by state/province. Some jurisdictions explicitly require that
all motor vehicle lighting devices conform to US Federal Motor Vehicle
Safety Standard 108 (or, in Canada, Canada Motor Vehicle Safety
Standard 108 or 108.1). Other jurisdictions make vague references to
(usually outdated and/or inapplicable) SAE standards. Still other
jurisdictions contain subjective requirements, e.g. "Every vehicle
shall be equipped with two brake lights showing a red light to the rear
when the brakes are applied, which shall be clearly visible for a
distance of such-and-so many feet".

Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and I
can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them.

Well, a few things he First off, SAE is not a regulatory body.
Despite
commonly-used packaging language, there is no such thing as "SAE
approval".
(There's also no such thing as "DOT approval", but that's a different
topic
for a different day). FMVSS108 and CMVSS108 do not require any
particular
fiducial markings on vehicle rear lamps. Such markings are optional and
are
frequently applied by reputable manufacturers of HDV lighting
equipment, which implies you're not looking closely enough for the
markings and/or you don't know what you're looking for. There are a
great many different LED vehicle brake, marker, tail, parking,
reversing and directional indicator lamps on the
market. Of these, a large proportion are fully compliant with
applicable
regulations and therefore legal in all states and provinces for use in
their
intended applications. (The remainder are 3rd-world knockoff
crapola-this
has been a problem since long before LEDs, and it'll carry on being a
problem long after LEDs are obsolete).

LED exterior lights are appearing more slowly on passenger cars, simply
due
to economic factors. Development and tooling for a good, durable and
legally-compliant lighting device design is extremely expensive and
quite time consuming. HDVs overwhelmingly use lighting devices made to
a dozen or so industry-standard formats (4" round, 7" round, 3" x 5"
rectangular and 2" x 7" oblong brake/tail/turn lamps, for instance).
Passenger cars, on the other hand, overwhelmingly use model-specific
lamps.

I have an interest in reducing my motorcycle's current usage - and making
myself more visible. LEDs can do it, but I wonder about the legality

How come? What makes you think LEDs are illegal? What spoils the safety
compliance of a vehicle is (surprise!) lights that don't produce
intensity somewhere between the minimum and maximum prescribed values,
through at least the prescribed vertical and horizontal angles, with at
least the
prescribed minimum ratio between bright and dim intensity modes, with
at
least the prescribed minimum illuminated area and at least the
prescribed minimum resistance to the prescribed types of deterioration.
That's a long way of saying homemade brake/tail lights and "LED bulb"
retrofits generally don't work well enough to provide adequate safety
performance.

(since the DOT has taken 30+ years to accept that halogen lights are better
than "sealed beams"

It's really not that simple. Some of them are, some of them aren't.
Virtually every owner of a '93-'00 Chrysler product who pays any
attention at all to headlamp performance pines for the "performance" of
the $9 sealed beams on his '60s-'80s cars. And as a concept,
sealed-beam construction in standardized form factors makes a great
deal of sense for automotive headlamps. The _implementation_ we were
stuck with for so many years was poor, but there's nothing about
sealed-beam construction, per se, that locks one into poor headlamp
performance. There are plenty of bad replaceable-bulb lights, too.
There are even bad "Xenon" HID lights. Good lights are better than bad
lights; there's too much room in the US headlamp standard for various
kinds of bad lights.

I know LED's can make a big difference in visibility.

Good lights can make a big difference in visibility and conspicuity
compared
to bad lights. There are some very good LED lights...and a lot of bad
ones.
And there are some very good bulb-type lights.

is just a matter of waiting (should I live that long) untill the LED
lobbyists pay more than the incandescent lobbyists.

This doesn't make any sense. See above; more and more LED-based vehicle
lamps hit the road every day with full legal compliance.

And we, the people, might be able to choose.

You already can.

Sealed beams were a great improvement over polished silvered iron
reflectors

Er...there were no "iron" headlamp reflectors. Silvered brass,
generally. Sometimes silvered steel.

- in the 30's- - and so the law was passed - - Halogen lights came along in
the 60/70s and could project more usable light where it was needed and not
cause glare to oncomming headlights - so the Europeans had them and the US
had to wait until General Electric could develop halogen (sealed beam)
headlights (that threw more light up in the air than directly ahead).

This is all more or less correct, though GE was _last_ to market with
DOT-certified halogen sealed beams. Westinghouse, Philips and Sylvania
beat them to it by a fairly long margin. GE kept insisting and
insisting that halogen technology was "unnecessary" on automobiles, and
that its use would create more problems than it would solve. This was
probably due more to GE's having recently-at-the-time sunk a great deal
of money into retooling their tungsten sealed beam production
facilities. Ironically, GE was first to market with a halogen sealed
beam in North America. In the early 1970s, GE Canada produced a
"Quartzline" 5-3/4" halogen sealed beam high beam, called Q4001, and
marketed it in Canada. It complied with European photometric
requirements and therefore was legal in Canada, but was "too intense"
for the US' unrealistically low high beam intensity limits and so was
not sold in the US.

When GE got out of the market - auto lighting was more or less for safety.

GE is very much still in the market. And auto lighting has for a very
long time been as much about politics, economics and non-tariff trade
barriers as about safety.

So how bad can LED lights be?

Very bad. Just as bad as other kinds of bad lights, if they're not
designed and built properly.

DS

Steve TR wrote:
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible. These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights. That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.





I have a 66 Mustang 2+2 that has LED lights from a company called
Mustang Project
http://www.mustangproject.com/67-68%...sion%20Kit.pdf .
You can contact them and see if they have a universal led kit for other
cars.

BTW, you are correct about using the original wiring harness for high
current devices. What I do is use my original switches and wiring just
as "signal" sources, and have them feed high current automobile quality
relays. My headlights, fuel pump (fuel injected 5.0), electric fan,
fog lights etc. are fed by a new heavy (and fused) 12v bus.

John

It's really not that simple. Some of them are, some of them aren't.
Virtually every owner of a '93-'00 Chrysler product who pays any
attention at all to headlamp performance pines for the "performance" of
the $9 sealed beams on his '60s-'80s cars. And as a concept,
sealed-beam construction in standardized form factors makes a great
deal of sense for automotive headlamps. The _implementation_ we were
stuck with for so many years was poor, but there's nothing about
sealed-beam construction, per se, that locks one into poor headlamp
performance. There are plenty of bad replaceable-bulb lights, too.
There are even bad "Xenon" HID lights. Good lights are better than bad
lights; there's too much room in the US headlamp standard for various
kinds of bad lights.



There's nothing wrong with the sealed beam construction itself, but the
classic DOT headlamps *suck*. Installing quality OEM E-code headlamps on
my European car was the best thing I ever did to it. People who ride
with me often comment at how good the headlights are and they're usually
shocked when I flip on the high beams. The original sealed beams were
downright dangerous, I was overdriving my headlights going 5 under the
speed limit on a dark highway, yet they still produced more glare to
oncoming traffic than what I have now.

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.misc.]
On 2005-10-29, Steve TR wrote:
I appreciate the advice.

I actually already have 2 of these "drop in" bayonet replacements and while
they are okay for the "casual user" (lol) I'm quite picky and don't want to
look like the rest of the import kiddies with the funky looking LED tail
lamps only lighting up in small spots.

I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look and it
seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense will work
wonderfully. Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it would be all
that expensive... You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of LEDs and
solder away. I just suck at soldering. LOL

a task like this would be good way to gain skills.

start with some perfboard (circuit board with lits of holes and no
cobnecteions made between them) figure out your LED layout stick the leds in
then join them up by the bits that stick out the back

by the time you've done the few thousand solder joins your design wants
you'll be an expert.

--

Bye.
Jasen

On 2005-10-29, Ken Weitzel wrote:

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"


depends what the law says: it might just say "clearly visible" from such an
angle and distance... still that could have a bearing on the best choice of LED.

Bye.
Jasen

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, James Sweet wrote:

Virtually every owner of a '93-'00 Chrysler product who pays any
attention at all to headlamp performance pines for the "performance" of
the $9 sealed beams on his '60s-'80s cars. And as a concept,
sealed-beam construction in standardized form factors makes a great
deal of sense for automotive headlamps. The _implementation_ we were
stuck with for so many years was poor, but there's nothing about
sealed-beam construction, per se, that locks one into poor headlamp
performance.

There's nothing wrong with the sealed beam construction itself, but the
classic DOT headlamps *suck*.

Yep, many of them do. I have a few interesting E-code sealed beams that
produce very well-focued beam patterns. They're little more than
historical/technical curiosities by dint of being an uncommon design;
sealed-beam headlamp construction really never caught on enduringly
outside North America. That said, European regulations are now being
written for the optional installation of sealed-beam *fog* lamps, for some
strange reason.

Installing quality OEM E-code headlamps on my European car was the best
thing I ever did to it. People who ride with me often comment at how
good the headlights are and they're usually shocked when I flip on the
high beams. The original sealed beams were downright dangerous, I was
overdriving my headlights going 5 under the speed limit on a dark
highway, yet they still produced more glare to oncoming traffic than
what I have now.

Got a well-stocked public library near you? Go find Car & Driver, March
1979. Start reading on page 93, and don't quit til page 111. It is sad how
much of it's still completely true.

DS

Steve TR wrote:

I appreciate the advice.

I actually already have 2 of these "drop in" bayonet replacements and
while
they are okay for the "casual user" (lol) I'm quite picky and don't want
to look like the rest of the import kiddies with the funky looking LED
tail lamps only lighting up in small spots.

I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look and
it seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense will work
wonderfully. Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it would be all
that expensive... You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of LEDs and
solder away. I just suck at soldering. LOL


"3T39" wrote in message
...
Hello, 3T39!
You wrote to Steve TR on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:42:18 +0100:

"You can buy off the shelf replacements for the 1157's"

Sorry,
just noticed you already knew this. Dooh!
I didn't read the whole post and jumped to the wrong conclusion.




With best regards, 3T39. E-mail:



Personally, i would try diffusing the existing replacements by roughening
the surface and placing a thin layer of milky plastic in front of the
LED's. A PCB full of LED's would look like a bunch of dots too.
--
JosephKK

default wrote:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:54:52 GMT, Ken Weitzel
wrote:

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents. I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Take care.

Ken

And, what is the law?

Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and
I can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them.

I have an interest in reducing my motorcycle's current usage - and
making myself more visible. LEDs can do it, but I wonder about the
legality (since the DOT has taken 30+ years to accept that halogen
lights are better than "sealed beams" and) I know LED's can make a
big difference in visibility. - seems to me it is just a matter of
waiting (should I live that long) untill the LED lobbyists pay more
than the incandescent lobbyists. And we, the people, might be able to
choose.

I think the bottom line is safety. LED's can do it better than
incandescents - but not in a cost competive way (if one happens to be
a detroit mogul) so, we have to wait until Detroit allows us this
safety feature . . .

Sealed beams were a great improvement over polished silvered iron
reflectors - in the 30's- - and so the law was passed - - Halogen
lights came along in the 60/70s and could project more usable light
where it was needed and not cause glare to oncomming headlights - so
the Europeans had them and the US had to wait until General Electric
could develop halogen (sealed beam) headlights (that threw more light
up in the air than directly ahead). unitl the 80's

When GE got out of the market - auto lighting was more or less for
safety. But there's sitll the spector of some nanny lobbyist out
there to make us safe (in the corporatetly acceptible way).

"I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Me too.

Then I see celebrities breaking the law. and president's since Nixon,
and presidents circumventing the Consitution since I was born and I
have to wonder what good is the "rule of law?" It is a matter of what
I can get away with - not what is legal.

So how bad can LED lights be?

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy
via Encryption =----
This sub-thread got me curious, so i looked it up found 49cfr564. Roughly
it says if it gives equivalent light (including color characteristics) and
is otherwise interchangeable with original it is legal. Thus halogen
lamps, LED's, induction lamps or whatever are OK.
--
JosephKK

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, frenchy wrote:

How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?

The "1157 LED bulbs" don't put out nearly enough total light, period. No
diffuser is going to help that.

And you came up with this how? legal requirements state otherwise.
--
JosephKK