flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:49:28 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.

LOL

That would make a good segment in a B sci-fi flick. 'Good guys' sent
to abandoned facility to set up base for fighting whatever and dern
near freeze to death from the AC.

The difference is, in the movies, there's always some rouge
'anti-authority' hero who ponies up, breaks the rules, and 'fixes' it
himself. Like with 50 rounds through the power conduit.

The AC was belt driven. Some of us considered cutting the belts.
Problem is CE would have found out and replaced them. In any event, I
would have been blamed no matter who did it. I made the mistake of
mentioning the idea to the branch REMF.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:30:53 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:49:28 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.
LOL

That would make a good segment in a B sci-fi flick. 'Good guys' sent
to abandoned facility to set up base for fighting whatever and dern
near freeze to death from the AC.

The difference is, in the movies, there's always some rouge
'anti-authority' hero who ponies up, breaks the rules, and 'fixes' it
himself. Like with 50 rounds through the power conduit.
The AC was belt driven. Some of us considered cutting the belts.
Problem is CE would have found out and replaced them. In any event, I
would have been blamed no matter who did it. I made the mistake of
mentioning the idea to the branch REMF.

Oh my. Never ask for permission first. You know what Grace Hopper
said: It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I didn't ask permission. I just mentioned the idea. Essentially the
same thing, I guess.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

flipper wrote:
snip

One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.

Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles. My grandmother had one where the volume control was
a sheet of plywood that slid behind the horn fabric on the front. It was
still working in the 1990s long after she died. Amazing how loud that
beast could get.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

flipper wrote:

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:50:32 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip

One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.

Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles.

Boy, I bet those don't last long as even the steel ones wear down
surprisingly fast.


Fast? You are supposed to replace the steel needle after every
record.


My grandmother had one where the volume control was
a sheet of plywood that slid behind the horn fabric on the front. It was
still working in the 1990s long after she died. Amazing how loud that
beast could get.

Yeah, the Empire has a 'volume control' too.

I get a kick out of the "Johnny Zero" diddy because it's done like a
school razz and "the kids all called him Johnny 0" because of his poor
showing on exams but now... Johnny is a hero. Johnny is a hero. Johnny
got a Zero, today. Hurray

Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer is, of course, a classic and why I
bothered trying to repair it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Dan wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.


20 degrees? How about -20 if you opened those doors? The AFRTS TV
station I engineered at in Alaska had no A/C. The studio was so hot
with the lights on that it was miserable. The solution was to prop open
the rear door behind the news desk, to let the sub zero air in, to cool
the set.


No thanks, I RONned at Eilson (sp?) a couple of times in winter. That
was enough for me. Eglin, however, is in Florida.


I know where both bases are. I spent a year+ at Ft. Greely, and i
built a TV station in Destin, Florida about 20 years ago.

Elision was warmer than Greely. Greely sat at the bottom of the
mountain ranges, and had cold air rolling down off the mountain tops.
After a few months, it would get so cold & dry that it couldn't snow,
but the winds would blow snow down off the mountains. I had a two mile
walk to the TV station in sub zero weather all winter. By the time
spring came, you welcomed the -20 degrees. Johnny Horton was right in
his song, 'North, to Alaska'.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.

20 degrees? How about -20 if you opened those doors? The AFRTS TV
station I engineered at in Alaska had no A/C. The studio was so hot
with the lights on that it was miserable. The solution was to prop open
the rear door behind the news desk, to let the sub zero air in, to cool
the set.


No thanks, I RONned at Eilson (sp?) a couple of times in winter. That
was enough for me. Eglin, however, is in Florida.


I know where both bases are. I spent a year+ at Ft. Greely, and i
built a TV station in Destin, Florida about 20 years ago.

Elision was warmer than Greely. Greely sat at the bottom of the
mountain ranges, and had cold air rolling down off the mountain tops.
After a few months, it would get so cold & dry that it couldn't snow,
but the winds would blow snow down off the mountains. I had a two mile
walk to the TV station in sub zero weather all winter. By the time
spring came, you welcomed the -20 degrees. Johnny Horton was right in
his song, 'North, to Alaska'.



I heard about Greely. I'm glad I didn't get to experience it. I
retired in 1994 and have become civilized. This old bod has become
accustomed to air conditioning.

Didn't Horton also have a song that said "when it's spring time in
Alaska it's 20 below?"

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:30:52 -0500, Dan wrote:

and have become civilized.

Coulda fooled me.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:50:32 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.
Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles.
Boy, I bet those don't last long as even the steel ones wear down
surprisingly fast.


Fast? You are supposed to replace the steel needle after every
record.


If memory serves the one my grandmother had came with a built in
needle sharpener. I will look next time I'm in Vermont.

I'm beginning to feel old from this discussion. Next thing you know
I'll be yelling at children to get off my lawn.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:50:32 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.
Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles.
Boy, I bet those don't last long as even the steel ones wear down
surprisingly fast.


Fast? You are supposed to replace the steel needle after every
record.


If memory serves the one my grandmother had came with a built in
needle sharpener. I will look next time I'm in Vermont.


The sharper was for cactus needles.


I'm beginning to feel old from this discussion. Next thing you know
I'll be yelling at children to get off my lawn.


Don't forget to wave your cane and grunt. ;-)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

flipper wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:16:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:50:32 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip

One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.

Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles.

Boy, I bet those don't last long as even the steel ones wear down
surprisingly fast.


Fast? You are supposed to replace the steel needle after every
record.

You don't consider that fast?


Not considering how they were used. You had a chioce of the needle
or the record weraing out.


I did some research after he posted that and cactus (and 'fiber')
needles were apparently available store bought but steel were the
'cheap' ones.

There were also tungsten (Tungs-tone) needles, supposedly good for
maybe 50 plays (100-300 claimed), and, apparently, tungsten never made
it onto the WWII 'ration' list.

Did remind me that I'm almost out of needles, though, so I just
ordered some more.

My grandmother had one where the volume control was
a sheet of plywood that slid behind the horn fabric on the front. It was
still working in the 1990s long after she died. Amazing how loud that
beast could get.

Yeah, the Empire has a 'volume control' too.

I get a kick out of the "Johnny Zero" diddy because it's done like a
school razz and "the kids all called him Johnny 0" because of his poor
showing on exams but now... Johnny is a hero. Johnny is a hero. Johnny
got a Zero, today. Hurray

Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer is, of course, a classic and why I
bothered trying to repair it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Dan wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.

20 degrees? How about -20 if you opened those doors? The AFRTS TV
station I engineered at in Alaska had no A/C. The studio was so hot
with the lights on that it was miserable. The solution was to prop open
the rear door behind the news desk, to let the sub zero air in, to cool
the set.


No thanks, I RONned at Eilson (sp?) a couple of times in winter. That
was enough for me. Eglin, however, is in Florida.


I know where both bases are. I spent a year+ at Ft. Greely, and i
built a TV station in Destin, Florida about 20 years ago.

Elision was warmer than Greely. Greely sat at the bottom of the
mountain ranges, and had cold air rolling down off the mountain tops.
After a few months, it would get so cold & dry that it couldn't snow,
but the winds would blow snow down off the mountains. I had a two mile
walk to the TV station in sub zero weather all winter. By the time
spring came, you welcomed the -20 degrees. Johnny Horton was right in
his song, 'North, to Alaska'.



I heard about Greely. I'm glad I didn't get to experience it. I
retired in 1994 and have become civilized. This old bod has become
accustomed to air conditioning.

Didn't Horton also have a song that said "when it's spring time in
Alaska it's 20 below?"


Close, but it was -40. ;-)

When It's Springtime In Alaska (It's Forty Below)
Johnny Horton
Written by Tillman B. Franks and Johnny Horton


I mushed from Point Barrow through a blizzard of snow
Been out prospectin' for two years or so
Pulled into Fairbanks, the city was a-boom
So I took a little stroll to the Red Dog Sea-loon

As I walked in the door, the music was clear
The purtiest voice I had heard in two years
The song she was singin' made a man's blood run cold
When it's Springtime in Alaska, it's forty below
(When it's Springtime in Alaska, it's forty below)

It was redheaded Lil who was singin' so sweet
I reached down and took the snow packs off my feet
I reached for the gal who was singin' the tune
We did the Eskeemo Hop all around the sea-loon

With a Caribou Crawl and a Grizzly Bear Hug
We did our dance on a Kodiak rug
The song she kept singin' made a man's blood run cold
When it's Springtime in Alaska, it's forty below

I was as innocent as I could be
I didn't know Lil was Big Ed's wife-to-be
He took out his knife and he gave it a throw
When it's Springtime in Alaska, I'll be six feet below
(When it's Springtime in Alaska, he'll be six feet below)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:34:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:16:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:50:32 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.
Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles.
Boy, I bet those don't last long as even the steel ones wear down
surprisingly fast.

Fast? You are supposed to replace the steel needle after every
record.
You don't consider that fast?

Not considering how they were used. You had a chioce of the needle
or the record weraing out.

That wasn't 'the (only) choice' when you consider the tungs-tone gave
50 plays but, even without it, you literally can't get any 'faster'
than wearing out just as the one play ends and still have a workable
device.

Besides, we're talking about the perspective of "young
whippersnappers" used to gram loaded diamond styli good for
considerably more than '1 play'.


Nothing like trying to adjust a balanced tone arm. I don't think I
ever did it successfully. Personally I think they were produced so stuck
up audiophiles could baffle the rest of us with BS.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:24:04 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...



Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

An RTL NOR gate had exactly ONE transistor :-)

...Jim Thompson

True. Though the oldest (that i remember) were Motorola packaged parts
that had two 2-input gates on a to-99 can. They were labeled as rtl.
MC801 maybe? Some of the MC800/900 series was DTL.

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/MC831-datasheet.html

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/lef...rs/rtl_dtl.cat

Cack, but those antique parts are very expensive.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:04:04 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:24:04 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...



Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

An RTL NOR gate had exactly ONE transistor :-)

Yeah. In fact, I think that was the first one because you can make any
logic circuit with just NOR gates.

The Fairchild Micrologic "Type-G" (3-input NOR) was selected for the
Apollo Guidance Computer, which used around 4,000 of them per system.

They used something like 200,000 in total which 'brought the prices
down' to a mere 20-30 bucks per chip. And that's in 'pre stagflation'
dollars too. Whew!

Only the military qualified ones. The commercial stuff was about a buck
a piece, less in volume.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:17:15 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:17:41 +0100, Baron
wrote:

flipper Inscribed thus:

Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.
I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)

All this talk about the first ICs reminded me of the first "IC
Computers:" the Apollo computer systems.

Those working on a DIY lunar mission can download a simulator of the
guidance computer from this site.

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ForDummies.html

Notice the computer specs: 85,000 CPU instructions per second. Yee-ha,
we're cooking with gas now!

The story of how the 'verb-noun' interface came about is both funny
and scary. Apparently no one had spec 'd the man machine interface so
when a demo was needed something was thrown together and it stuck.

A power point presentation showing the guts of it.

http://klabs.org/mapld04/presentatio...007_hall_s.ppt

The ICs were dual nor gates.


The space race was an exciting time. It's hard to imagine how they
did it with the technology at hand. Imagine building a Mercury, Gemini
or Apollo capsule with modern electronics. I wonder how much weight and
power could be saved.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I doubt that you would get much weight reduction. The stuff necessary
for human life is bulky (water, air, food) and waste handling cause most
of the weight. What you would get is nice capability improvements.
Consider, they took a (color?) video camera to the moon, and sent back
live video.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 14:28:57 -0500, Dan wrote:

Baron wrote:
Dan Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
Dan Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
flipper Inscribed thus:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...


Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".

The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used
in 1969 had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...


Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably
wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the
Fairchild-Micrologic type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with
a mind boggling 4 transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether
theirs or Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was
entirely consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that
not 'commercially available'.
I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti"
packaged circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I
also seem to recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what
type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)

Remember ICs in round metal cans? I also remember an MIT open
house where they had a flip flop in an IC in a dipped (epoxy?)
package in the late 1960s. They used it in a decade counter.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Hi Dan.
I do recall those ! In fact I may still have one or two kicking
about in one of the many boxes of junk that seem to grow ever more
numerous. I was hunting for something the other day and came across a
packet with a couple of point contact diodes with the threaded ends
complete with
the nuts for attaching the wires to them. Goodness knows how old
they are.

Those go back to hybrid systems with tubes, if memory serves. Not
that I am old enough to remember such things.

Not too long ago I found a schematic for a nixie tube clock using
an IC switching transistors to drive the tubes. Interesting
combination.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

One of these days I'm going to have to take some photos of all the
interesting bits of junk that I have kicking about. SWMBO wants me to
dump it all !
One day, one day :-)
You can bet my kids will when I pass on.


My ex used to refer to my stash as "your father's junk heap" when
talking to my children. Once in awhile I get rid of things like the 8"
disk drives I chucked a few years ago. Do you know anyone who needs some
core memory?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I do. Especially if you can document what it came from. I can make it
work again.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:18:12 -0500, flipper wrote:


Depends. Does it fit in a Data General Nova 2/10? I have one 'maxed'
out with the full 64k byte core memory but it's always nice to have a
spare

It was operational last time I turned it on some 20 years ago but my
MicroPDP-11 saw more practical use.


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

To be honest I have no idea what it is out of.

I didn't expect you did. I was kidding

I'd have to look at it
again, but I think it has 8 planes of 64 cores. If you are interested
I'll take a picture and send it to you.

Sure. Post a pic. I'm sure everyone else would be interested too.

I wouldn't mind having one to go with my tube 'plug-in computer
module' but it's not a 'must have' sort of thing.

I also have a single plane from
some other device. I can't imagine having to thread 4 wires through each
core. If memory serves they were X, Y, sense and write.

As size went down (density went up) it was an early candidate for
automation and got it.

Seems simple enough an idea, doesn't it? It's all that dern work.

I've become fascinated with the difference between 'good ideas' vs
what it takes to then build them and, on that theme, take a look at
this 'large screen plasma TV'.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/bell_labs.html

Same basic scanning pixel principle as today but, heaven's to Betsy,
the work needed to build that monstrosity.


I used to have two drum memories from a calculator the size of a GI
desk. If I remember right they were 8" or so in diameter by almost 3
feet long. The console had a gazillion columns of buttons. I'm not sure
what I was going to do with the drums, but I was in high school and they
were fun to play with.

Some things not worth keeping were the dynamic RAM chips from a Z-80A
computer I built on an S-100 bus in 1979 or so. I do keep a few older
(pre L or LS) ICs to play with on occasion.

I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'

Not to mention my house wasn't an oil field either, so the 'software'
that came with it was of limited use, "word processing" and
"spreadsheet" were yet to be coined, and there weren't all that many
'video games' for Nova 2/10s at the local Walmart.

On the other hand I had a full fledged multi-user, multi tasking, real
time operating system so I could back up NASA should the need arise

My basic processor would have been 'better', though, because I was
building it with on-the-fly switchable micro-code so it could 'become'
almost any processor model.

Oh my, writeable control store. Temporarily popular quite some time
ago, about the time of bit-slice machines. 2900 and COPS machines.

It drove my wife nuts that I couldn't throw away a serviceable item
just because I didn't have an immediate use for it.

It had to be serviceable? Hehe

I never was able to
convince her a past time is something one wants to do and a hobby is
something one HAS to do. You know, like breathing.

I understand.

Oh yeah.

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:44:08 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:30:53 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:49:28 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.
LOL

That would make a good segment in a B sci-fi flick. 'Good guys' sent
to abandoned facility to set up base for fighting whatever and dern
near freeze to death from the AC.

The difference is, in the movies, there's always some rouge
'anti-authority' hero who ponies up, breaks the rules, and 'fixes' it
himself. Like with 50 rounds through the power conduit.
The AC was belt driven. Some of us considered cutting the belts.
Problem is CE would have found out and replaced them. In any event, I
would have been blamed no matter who did it. I made the mistake of
mentioning the idea to the branch REMF.

Oh my. Never ask for permission first. You know what Grace Hopper
said: It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I didn't ask permission. I just mentioned the idea. Essentially the
same thing, I guess.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Worse, actually.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:30:52 -0500, Dan wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Dan wrote:
flipper wrote:
snip
I think I've still got a bag of 1103s around here somewhere. I was, at
the time, hoping to build my own computer but it was just too much
money, not to mention slow going. I did get the ALU wired up but then
I ran across the 'junked' Nova 2-10, which I repaired, and with 2
1.25Meg platters that was way more than I could do on my own in spare
time. It took a dedicated breaker to power the dern thing, though, and
the room got rather toasty in short order even with the air running
full blast. My house just wasn't built to be a 'computing center'
In the 1970s Langley AFB closed their C-130 units and moved the
EC-135 avionics branch and ops into the old C-130 sim building. At least
they rebuilt it to suit. In the 1980s I was at Eglin AFB when they
decided to move us into the now vacant C-130 flight sim building. The
least they could have done is turn off the air conditioning until they
revamped the building. In January it was in the 20s outside and we still
had the big back doors open to keep from freezing. I never did ask how
much power them there C-130 sims used, but I can assume it was a lot
considering that blasted AC. Believe it or not the only ones allowed to
turn AC or heat on or off was base civil engineering. Of course there
was a base reg that dictated when and what could be switched and no one
bothered to make a supplement for us. End of whine mode.

20 degrees? How about -20 if you opened those doors? The AFRTS TV
station I engineered at in Alaska had no A/C. The studio was so hot
with the lights on that it was miserable. The solution was to prop open
the rear door behind the news desk, to let the sub zero air in, to cool
the set.


No thanks, I RONned at Eilson (sp?) a couple of times in winter. That
was enough for me. Eglin, however, is in Florida.


I know where both bases are. I spent a year+ at Ft. Greely, and i
built a TV station in Destin, Florida about 20 years ago.

Elision was warmer than Greely. Greely sat at the bottom of the
mountain ranges, and had cold air rolling down off the mountain tops.
After a few months, it would get so cold & dry that it couldn't snow,
but the winds would blow snow down off the mountains. I had a two mile
walk to the TV station in sub zero weather all winter. By the time
spring came, you welcomed the -20 degrees. Johnny Horton was right in
his song, 'North, to Alaska'.



I heard about Greely. I'm glad I didn't get to experience it. I
retired in 1994 and have become civilized. This old bod has become
accustomed to air conditioning.

Didn't Horton also have a song that said "when it's spring time in
Alaska it's 20 below?"

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Yep, and the title is "When It's Springtime In Alaska".

flipper wrote:

That wasn't 'the (only) choice' when you consider the tungs-tone gave
50 plays but, even without it, you literally can't get any 'faster'
than wearing out just as the one play ends and still have a workable
device.

Besides, we're talking about the perspective of "young
whippersnappers" used to gram loaded diamond styli good for
considerably more than '1 play'.


It was state of the art, when it was designed. Early records were
made from shellac, with a paper core. Later, they switched to vinyl
records, and improved the needles.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

JosephKK wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 14:28:57 -0500, Dan wrote:

Baron wrote:
Dan Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
Dan Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
flipper Inscribed thus:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...


Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".

The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used
in 1969 had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...


Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably
wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the
Fairchild-Micrologic type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with
a mind boggling 4 transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether
theirs or Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was
entirely consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that
not 'commercially available'.
I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti"
packaged circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I
also seem to recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what
type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)

Remember ICs in round metal cans? I also remember an MIT open
house where they had a flip flop in an IC in a dipped (epoxy?)
package in the late 1960s. They used it in a decade counter.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Hi Dan.
I do recall those ! In fact I may still have one or two kicking
about in one of the many boxes of junk that seem to grow ever more
numerous. I was hunting for something the other day and came across a
packet with a couple of point contact diodes with the threaded ends
complete with
the nuts for attaching the wires to them. Goodness knows how old
they are.

Those go back to hybrid systems with tubes, if memory serves. Not
that I am old enough to remember such things.

Not too long ago I found a schematic for a nixie tube clock using
an IC switching transistors to drive the tubes. Interesting
combination.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
One of these days I'm going to have to take some photos of all the
interesting bits of junk that I have kicking about. SWMBO wants me to
dump it all !
One day, one day :-)
You can bet my kids will when I pass on.

My ex used to refer to my stash as "your father's junk heap" when
talking to my children. Once in awhile I get rid of things like the 8"
disk drives I chucked a few years ago. Do you know anyone who needs some
core memory?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I do. Especially if you can document what it came from. I can make it
work again.

I have no idea what it's from. I have had it since 1970ish. It's free
to a good home, though.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

In message , Dan writes
flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:01:07 -0500, Dan wrote:

Joel Koltner wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message
...
In "Amok Time" the clock used flip leaves.
Perhaps they were just being nostalgic? Probably not, but
interestingly a lot of cell phones -- namely, those made by HTC --
use a flip-leaf clock display as their default. I suspect many kids
with such phones haven't even seen the real, mechanical implementations...

I never cared particularly for flip-leaf displays, but I do like
nixie tube clocks.

With the space race and such I really believed we'd be on our
to Jupiter by 2001.
If we hadn't decisively *won* the space race -- and were still
running it today -- you might be right. :-)

---Joel

I used nixie panel meters in 1973 ish. It's kind of fascinating to
watch the digits change.

Time marches on. 3 years ago I had to explain to a 20 year old how
to operate a record player.
A what player? hehe

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

A Victrola, you young whippersnapper.

We had to walk barefoot to school in the snow, up hill, both ways,
and we LIKED it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eDaSvRO9xA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13JK5kChbRw
--
Ian

Ian Jackson Inscribed thus:

In message , Dan
writes
flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:01:07 -0500, Dan wrote:

Joel Koltner wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message
...
In "Amok Time" the clock used flip leaves.
Perhaps they were just being nostalgic? Probably not, but
interestingly a lot of cell phones -- namely, those made by HTC --
use a flip-leaf clock display as their default. I suspect many
kids with such phones haven't even seen the real, mechanical
implementations...

I never cared particularly for flip-leaf displays, but I do like
nixie tube clocks.

With the space race and such I really believed we'd be on our
to Jupiter by 2001.
If we hadn't decisively *won* the space race -- and were still
running it today -- you might be right. :-)

---Joel

I used nixie panel meters in 1973 ish. It's kind of fascinating
to
watch the digits change.

Time marches on. 3 years ago I had to explain to a 20 year old
how
to operate a record player.
A what player? hehe

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

A Victrola, you young whippersnapper.

We had to walk barefoot to school in the snow, up hill, both ways,
and we LIKED it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eDaSvRO9xA

I remember seeing this on TV many many moons ago. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13JK5kChbRw

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

flipper wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:39:45 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

That wasn't 'the (only) choice' when you consider the tungs-tone gave
50 plays but, even without it, you literally can't get any 'faster'
than wearing out just as the one play ends and still have a workable
device.

Besides, we're talking about the perspective of "young
whippersnappers" used to gram loaded diamond styli good for
considerably more than '1 play'.


It was state of the art, when it was designed. Early records were
made from shellac, with a paper core. Later, they switched to vinyl
records, and improved the needles.

I am aware that the, then, current 'state of the art' was a steel
needle wore out damn fast.


You had a choice of a long life needle, or a long life record. The
needles were dirt cheap. The records weren't.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Archimedes' Lever wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 23:52:04 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:34:36 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:16:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:50:32 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
snip
One of the WWII records ("Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" with
"Johnny Zero" on the flip side) had 1/3 snapped off so I super glued
the pieces back together and the steel needle plows right on through,
no problem.
Steel needle? Grew up in one of them there snobbish families did you?
Try cactus needles.
Boy, I bet those don't last long as even the steel ones wear down
surprisingly fast.

Fast? You are supposed to replace the steel needle after every
record.
You don't consider that fast?

Not considering how they were used. You had a chioce of the needle
or the record weraing out.

That wasn't 'the (only) choice' when you consider the tungs-tone gave
50 plays but, even without it, you literally can't get any 'faster'
than wearing out just as the one play ends and still have a workable
device.

Besides, we're talking about the perspective of "young
whippersnappers" used to gram loaded diamond styli good for
considerably more than '1 play'.


Nothing like trying to adjust a balanced tone arm. I don't think I
ever did it successfully. Personally I think they were produced so stuck
up audiophiles could baffle the rest of us with BS.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I guess that depends on the design of the tone arm as well. I never had
any problems doing it. Of course that was mostly 1960 and later Dual,
Garrard and similar mechanisms. Not an issue with my current Audio
Technica either. Getting anti-skate right on the early models was a bit
tricky though.

Actually, the VERY first IC had two transistors, both PNP, on a single
slab of germanium (Kilby).

Jim






On 09 Jul 2010 02:34:51 GMT, "A. What?" wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".