I built a binary clock:

Now released to run on your billion transistor computer!

Download for Windows he http://www.arcatapet.com/software/daveuobc.cfm

Have fun learning to read time on it.

Dave...

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".

"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...


The first IC was in 1960 and had 10 transistors.

Your ICs came AFTER that, so your topic header ain't real bright.

By 1969 most ICs had more than that on them. I am sure there are still
a few out there that do not, but damn few, and damn costly. A lot better
to put eight of your chips onto on chip and the user uses what they need.

How many folks are still doing discreet component based logic circuit
layouts? I mean, aside from the basics like a diode or pull up, etc.?
Even then, we do things in banks and use chips with multiple iterations
of something on them, like quad op amps, etc.

"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
...
The first IC was in 1960 and had 10 transistors.

Your ICs came AFTER that, so your topic header ain't real bright.

irrelevant snippage

Do try to work on your social skills.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:45:35 -0500, flipper wrote:


The original IC had only one transistor, three resistors and one
capacitor.


Wrong. That was NOT an IC. That was a hybrid ASSEMBLY. You need to
learn the difference.

It took literally decades before we could reliably put caps onto and
into chips, and we still prefer to place them externally, and we still do
not use them for memory. That should tell you something.

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:45:35 -0500, flipper wrote:

The original IC had only one transistor, three resistors and one
capacitor.


Wrong. That was NOT an IC. That was a hybrid ASSEMBLY. You need to
learn the difference.

It took literally decades before we could reliably put caps onto and
into chips, and we still prefer to place them externally, and we still do
not use them for memory. That should tell you something.
SORRY!
Capacitors are a PART of the memory in DRAM; the FETS are *designed*
to have sufficient gate capacitance to hold the (data) charge for a
rather long time.
In the 80's (i think) Intel had a PMOS 128-bit (count may be high)
"array" that took 3 voltages to run to spec; the capacitance was high
enough and the leakage low enough that stored data could last for DAYS
with no power.
And built-in capacitors as a part of the design were used in analog
and digital parts made at Fairchild back in those daze as well.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:23:32 -0500, flipper wrote:


Just how the hell do you think dynamic RAM works? It's a freaking huge
bank of capacitors, which is why the darn thing has to be continually
refreshed.

No, idiot. It is a large bank of actively latched transistor switches.

No caps.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...



Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

An RTL NOR gate had exactly ONE transistor :-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:24:04 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...



Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

An RTL NOR gate had exactly ONE transistor :-)

...Jim Thompson

True. Though the oldest (that i remember) were Motorola packaged parts
that had two 2-input gates on a to-99 can. They were labeled as rtl.
MC801 maybe? Some of the MC800/900 series was DTL.

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/MC831-datasheet.html

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/lef...rs/rtl_dtl.cat

Cack, but those antique parts are very expensive.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:04:04 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:24:04 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in 1969
had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...



Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

An RTL NOR gate had exactly ONE transistor :-)

Yeah. In fact, I think that was the first one because you can make any
logic circuit with just NOR gates.

The Fairchild Micrologic "Type-G" (3-input NOR) was selected for the
Apollo Guidance Computer, which used around 4,000 of them per system.

They used something like 200,000 in total which 'brought the prices
down' to a mere 20-30 bucks per chip. And that's in 'pre stagflation'
dollars too. Whew!

Only the military qualified ones. The commercial stuff was about a buck
a piece, less in volume.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.


Fairchild's first chip was built by TI and went into missiles and was
ten transistors.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:41:41 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:57:47 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.


Fairchild's first chip was built by TI and went into missiles and was
ten transistors.

wrong again.

T.I. filed their patent first but Fairchild's was issued first.


Patent release dates are not where I put my historical timestamps.
Sorry. Fairchild had years of development involved and were the first.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:15:50 -0500, flipper wrote:

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.


The "first IC" is not segregated by the market it targeted, ya dope.

The TI chip was the Fairchild design. TI fabbed it.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:34:36 -0500, flipper wrote:


I said first "commercial" you out of context partial quoting jackass.

Which has nothing to do with the title of the thread.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:05:15 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:34:36 -0500, flipper wrote:


I said first "commercial" you out of context partial quoting jackass.

Which has nothing to do with the title of the thread.

It has to do with what I wrote, jackass.

You can't debate a jackass... shun the *******.

I'm puzzled!
Is there some orgasmic result from feeding trolls?
If not, WHY do you keep doing it?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:05:15 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:34:36 -0500, flipper wrote:


I said first "commercial" you out of context partial quoting jackass.

Which has nothing to do with the title of the thread.

It has to do with what I wrote, jackass.

That, then makes you the jackass, and you are too blind to see it.

flipper Inscribed thus:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:



"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".


The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in
1969 had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...



Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Baron wrote:
flipper Inscribed thus:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:


"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...


Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".

The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used in
1969 had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...


Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)


Remember ICs in round metal cans? I also remember an MIT open house
where they had a flip flop in an IC in a dipped (epoxy?) package in the
late 1960s. They used it in a decade counter.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan Inscribed thus:

Baron wrote:
flipper Inscribed thus:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:50 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:


"Archimedes' Lever" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...


Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".

The Diode Transistor Logic (DTL) single flip flop ICs that I used
in 1969 had less than 10 transistors!

Dave...


Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the
Fairchild-Micrologic type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a
mind boggling 4 transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs
or Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.

I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)


Remember ICs in round metal cans? I also remember an MIT open
house where they had a flip flop in an IC in a dipped (epoxy?)
package in the late 1960s. They used it in a decade counter.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Hi Dan.
I do recall those ! In fact I may still have one or two kicking about
in one of the many boxes of junk that seem to grow ever more numerous.
I was hunting for something the other day and came across a packet with
a couple of point contact diodes with the threaded ends complete with
the nuts for attaching the wires to them. Goodness knows how old they
are.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:17:41 +0100, Baron
wrote:

flipper Inscribed thus:

Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.
I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)

All this talk about the first ICs reminded me of the first "IC
Computers:" the Apollo computer systems.

Those working on a DIY lunar mission can download a simulator of the
guidance computer from this site.

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ForDummies.html

Notice the computer specs: 85,000 CPU instructions per second. Yee-ha,
we're cooking with gas now!

The story of how the 'verb-noun' interface came about is both funny
and scary. Apparently no one had spec 'd the man machine interface so
when a demo was needed something was thrown together and it stuck.

A power point presentation showing the guts of it.

http://klabs.org/mapld04/presentatio...007_hall_s.ppt

The ICs were dual nor gates.


The space race was an exciting time. It's hard to imagine how they
did it with the technology at hand. Imagine building a Mercury, Gemini
or Apollo capsule with modern electronics. I wonder how much weight and
power could be saved.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:17:15 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:17:41 +0100, Baron
wrote:

flipper Inscribed thus:

Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.
I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)

All this talk about the first ICs reminded me of the first "IC
Computers:" the Apollo computer systems.

Those working on a DIY lunar mission can download a simulator of the
guidance computer from this site.

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ForDummies.html

Notice the computer specs: 85,000 CPU instructions per second. Yee-ha,
we're cooking with gas now!

The story of how the 'verb-noun' interface came about is both funny
and scary. Apparently no one had spec 'd the man machine interface so
when a demo was needed something was thrown together and it stuck.

A power point presentation showing the guts of it.

http://klabs.org/mapld04/presentatio...007_hall_s.ppt

The ICs were dual nor gates.


The space race was an exciting time. It's hard to imagine how they
did it with the technology at hand. Imagine building a Mercury, Gemini
or Apollo capsule with modern electronics. I wonder how much weight and
power could be saved.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I doubt that you would get much weight reduction. The stuff necessary
for human life is bulky (water, air, food) and waste handling cause most
of the weight. What you would get is nice capability improvements.
Consider, they took a (color?) video camera to the moon, and sent back
live video.

flipper wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:17:15 -0500, Dan wrote:

flipper wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:17:41 +0100, Baron
wrote:

flipper Inscribed thus:

Don't worry. He does that all the time and is quite reliably wrong.

One of, if not, the first commercial ICs was the Fairchild-Micrologic
type "F" (flip-flop) stuffed to the brim with a mind boggling 4
transistors.

http://www.computerhistory.org/colle...sion/102696650

They also had the type "G" nor gate.

T.I. made similar 'chips', and there is debate as to whether theirs or
Micrologic's was 'first', but their early production was entirely
consumed by NASA and the military so many consider that not
'commercially available'.
I vaguely remember that I was playing about with "Ferranti" packaged
circuits, circa late 60's that had four transistors. I also seem to
recall that the colour of the plastic indicated what type of circuit
was in the package. Oh those fun days... :-)
All this talk about the first ICs reminded me of the first "IC
Computers:" the Apollo computer systems.

Those working on a DIY lunar mission can download a simulator of the
guidance computer from this site.

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ForDummies.html

Notice the computer specs: 85,000 CPU instructions per second. Yee-ha,
we're cooking with gas now!

The story of how the 'verb-noun' interface came about is both funny
and scary. Apparently no one had spec 'd the man machine interface so
when a demo was needed something was thrown together and it stuck.

A power point presentation showing the guts of it.

http://klabs.org/mapld04/presentatio...007_hall_s.ppt

The ICs were dual nor gates.


The space race was an exciting time. It's hard to imagine how they
did it with the technology at hand.

Hehe. Yes, I know. I remember marveling at the 'high tech', especially
since the Russian capsule panel looked like no more than an on-off and
station select table radio.

Then, a number of years back, NASA put together a collection of what
were originally 'promo' films. No changes, just the originals spliced
together to show the time line. But they were 'shocking' from a modern
perspective, what with a Redstone so small you could almost wrap your
arms around it and the Mercury capsule looking like less than a
corrugated sheet metal coffin because you couldn't even 'rest in
peace' laid out but were curled up in a fetal position with both your
feet and back resting against thin sheet metal between you and
nothing.

I had visions of someone lighting the thing off with a BIC.

But I was a 'Star Trek' guy. Give me warp drive

Imagine building a Mercury, Gemini
or Apollo capsule with modern electronics. I wonder how much weight and
power could be saved.

Of course, the ground based behemoths did the big number crunching
but, if I remember correctly, the AGC was 70lbs and consumed 70 watts.

Do the numbers in reverse and imagine what a 1930s Buck Rogers' ship
must have weighed with tubes! That really was fantasy

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I liked "Star Trek" also, but even then I knew they were behind the
technology curve. Scotty referred to and old space ship as "using big
bulky things called transistors" even though ICs were out and about. In
"Amok Time" the clock used flip leaves. In another episode someone
referred to ion drive as "advanced" despite having been around in the 1960s.

With the space race and such I really believed we'd be on our way to
Jupiter by 2001.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:24:38 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".

74S30 = six transistors.

There are MANY other examples.

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that had
less".
WRONG!
Fairchild UA702 had nine, the UA705 had five, i think their first -
the UA700 had three; certainly the infamous Jack Kilby patent used way
less than 10.

Archimedes' Lever wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".

Actually, the VERY first IC had two transistors, both PNP, on a single
slab of germanium (Kilby).

Jim






On 09 Jul 2010 02:34:51 GMT, "A. What?" wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:48:29 -0600, "Dave Ulmer"
wrote:

Dave...



Idiot! "IC"s NEVER "had less than ten transistors", you stupid
twit.

The very first IC HAD ten transistors, so there were none "that
had
less".