reposted from uk.d-i-y


I have a Japanese Kataba saw (the ones in the Axminster catalogue) with a
rip-cut "hassunme" profile. "Just the thing for effortlessly ripping long
boards" they say... well, they would, wouldn't they!

The problem is that I find it exceptionally difficult to use, far from
effortless, in fact so difficult that I assume that there must be something
drastically wrong with my technique. I'm trying to rip some 20mm(ish) thick
european oak, but it seems similarly difficult with pine and other woods
that I have tried.

With a traditional (to us) western pattern saw you'd work from the top,
sawing at an angle, and it cuts on the push stroke. So when ripping the
teeth essentially chisel through the fibres at and angle, and thinking about
it each fibre is supported by the one below it so it's a relatively easy,
clean cut.

However, with a japanese pullsaw it seems to me that working from above
means that the teeth are always digging directly into the end grain, and I
can't square this with an "easy sawing action".

Sawing from underneath (if you see what I mean) is easy, the saw glides
through the wood as I would expect, and I can easily see the cut line on the
surface. However this isn't a comfortable working position, not practical
for long boards and strikes me as not being the technique at all.

Saw from the top, but hold the saw such that the teeth form an oblique angle
with the board surface? Fine, works, but how do you follow the cutting line
(not that you have much chance with a ripsaw if it wanders off the line
anyway)?

Or perhaps it shoudl be held so that the cutting edge is perpendicular to
the board surface?

Anyone care to enlighten me on correct technique?


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

RichardS wrote:

reposted from uk.d-i-y

I have a Japanese Kataba saw (the ones in the Axminster catalogue) with a
rip-cut "hassunme" profile. "Just the thing for effortlessly ripping long
boards" they say... well, they would, wouldn't they!

The problem is that I find it exceptionally difficult to use, far from
effortless, in fact so difficult that I assume that there must be something
drastically wrong with my technique. I'm trying to rip some 20mm(ish) thick
european oak, but it seems similarly difficult with pine and other woods
that I have tried.

With a traditional (to us) western pattern saw you'd work from the top,
sawing at an angle, and it cuts on the push stroke. So when ripping the
teeth essentially chisel through the fibres at and angle, and thinking about
it each fibre is supported by the one below it so it's a relatively easy,
clean cut.

However, with a japanese pullsaw it seems to me that working from above
means that the teeth are always digging directly into the end grain, and I
can't square this with an "easy sawing action".

Sawing from underneath (if you see what I mean) is easy, the saw glides
through the wood as I would expect, and I can easily see the cut line on the
surface. However this isn't a comfortable working position, not practical
for long boards and strikes me as not being the technique at all.

Saw from the top, but hold the saw such that the teeth form an oblique angle
with the board surface? Fine, works, but how do you follow the cutting line
(not that you have much chance with a ripsaw if it wanders off the line
anyway)?

Or perhaps it shoudl be held so that the cutting edge is perpendicular to
the board surface?

Anyone care to enlighten me on correct technique?

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it? Or am I missing
something?

Hoyt W.

Hoyt Weathers wrote:

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on the
pull stroke.

Mitch Berkson

"Mitch Berkson" wrote in message
news:URmsc.5293$0d6.2276@lakeread03...
Hoyt Weathers wrote:

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.


That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)

The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.

Perhaps I'm worrying about this particular aspect too much and a little more
practice is called for.

I was just hoping that someone might be able to set me straight and say "ah,
yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying to use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message

snip

yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying to
use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."

Could well be. Japanese craftsmen squat or kneel at their work, I'm told, so
if the plank to be ripped is on sawhorses or their equivalent, he could well
be working from underneath.

Just a thought.

Frank



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 18/05/2004

"Frank McVey" wrote in message
s.com...

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message

snip

yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying to
use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."

Could well be. Japanese craftsmen squat or kneel at their work, I'm told,
so
if the plank to be ripped is on sawhorses or their equivalent, he could
well
be working from underneath.


yup, this is something that I heard about as well.

I've also read somewhere that the majority of tradional japanese woodworking
would be done whilst seated, and this would give rise to markedly different
techniques to western woodworking.

I'm scouring the web trying to find confirmation of this, but, with the
profusion of catalogue and directory sites being returned, google just isn't
as useful as it once was !!!


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .
"Frank McVey" wrote in message
s.com...

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message

snip

yes, the reason you're finding it difficult is because you're trying
to
use
the saw in a western way, and the technique for Japanese ripsaws is
fundamentally different, and you use it like this...."

Could well be. Japanese craftsmen squat or kneel at their work, I'm
told,
so
if the plank to be ripped is on sawhorses or their equivalent, he could
well
be working from underneath.


yup, this is something that I heard about as well.

I've also read somewhere that the majority of tradional japanese
woodworking
would be done whilst seated, and this would give rise to markedly
different
techniques to western woodworking.

I'm scouring the web trying to find confirmation of this, but, with the
profusion of catalogue and directory sites being returned, google just
isn't
as useful as it once was !!!


aha! just found this - appear to be getting somewhere...

http://home.earthlink.net/~nokogiri/FPHE.html


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

Mitch Berkson wrote:

Hoyt Weathers wrote:

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on the
pull stroke.

Mitch Berkson

The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust and keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.

Hoyt W.

RichardS wrote:

snip, snip

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.


That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)

The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.

Oblique angle to what? Which cut direction - towards you or away from you?

I get the sinking feeling that you are cutting AWAY from you for some unstated
reason. Is this what you are doing? If so, why? Everyone I know cuts toward
themselves. Cutting a board is not rocket science.

Assume you hold the saw at about 45 degrees or less to the board to be cut. Also
assume there is a cut line on the top side of the board. Also assume you pull the
saw towards you as you adhere to the cut line and make the rip cut. If all of those
assumptions are TRUE, then the saw teeth UNDER the board could NOT be ahead of the
ones ABOVE the board. No way!

The word *ahead* could have two or more meanings I suppose. One would be related to
position. Another could be related to time. I assume time is not a factor in this.

Why not just play around with it on some crappie scrap? No harm done for sure.

Hoyt W.

"Hoyt Weathers" wrote in message
...
Mitch Berkson wrote:

Hoyt Weathers wrote:

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.

Mitch Berkson

The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust and
keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It
doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.


true. I am specifically talking about the technique for ripping a board
here, and my puzzlement as to why I appear to be experiencing such
difficulty.


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

are you ****ed I didn't fall for your ruse on Friday?

dave

Hoyt Weathers wrote:

RichardS wrote:

snip, snip


Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on

the

pull stroke.


That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)

The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.


Oblique angle to what? Which cut direction - towards you or away from you?

I get the sinking feeling that you are cutting AWAY from you for some unstated
reason. Is this what you are doing? If so, why? Everyone I know cuts toward
themselves. Cutting a board is not rocket science.

Assume you hold the saw at about 45 degrees or less to the board to be cut. Also
assume there is a cut line on the top side of the board. Also assume you pull the
saw towards you as you adhere to the cut line and make the rip cut. If all of those
assumptions are TRUE, then the saw teeth UNDER the board could NOT be ahead of the
ones ABOVE the board. No way!

The word *ahead* could have two or more meanings I suppose. One would be related to
position. Another could be related to time. I assume time is not a factor in this.

Why not just play around with it on some crappie scrap? No harm done for sure.

Hoyt W.

RichardS wrote:

"Hoyt Weathers" wrote in message
...
Mitch Berkson wrote:

Hoyt Weathers wrote:

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts on
the
pull stroke.

Mitch Berkson

The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust and
keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It
doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.


true. I am specifically talking about the technique for ripping a board
here, and my puzzlement as to why I appear to be experiencing such
difficulty.

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

A light bulb just turned on. Perchance, are you sitting in the Japanese position
BELOW the board when you try to cut it? [ I would never do that because saw dust
would get all over me. ] If so, why isn't the cut line also facing you on that side
of the board? If it is, then what is the problem in following the cut line?

If the cut line is on TOP of the board and you are sawing from BELOW the board, then
I agree with you that the cut could be off the marked cut line.

Then my question becomes: Is there a particular reason why you wish to cut that way?
To each his own I suppose.

Perhaps I am still not getting your point.

Hoyt W.

"Hoyt Weathers" wrote in message
...
RichardS wrote:

snip, snip

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut
it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw cuts
on
the
pull stroke.


That's not really the problem, though it wouldn't help. Have lungs, can
blow dust away... :-)

The problem it seems to me is that if I'm cutting at an oblique angle
then
the saw teeth under the board will be ahead of he ones above the board,
which seems intrinsically more difficult to follow the cut line.

Oblique angle to what? Which cut direction - towards you or away from you?

I get the sinking feeling that you are cutting AWAY from you for some
unstated
reason. Is this what you are doing? If so, why? Everyone I know cuts
toward
themselves. Cutting a board is not rocket science.


see below for how I arrive at this state of affairs....

Assume you hold the saw at about 45 degrees or less to the board to be
cut. Also
assume there is a cut line on the top side of the board. Also assume you
pull the
saw towards you as you adhere to the cut line and make the rip cut. If all
of those
assumptions are TRUE, then the saw teeth UNDER the board could NOT be
ahead of the
ones ABOVE the board. No way!


The word *ahead* could have two or more meanings I suppose. One would be
related to
position. Another could be related to time. I assume time is not a factor
in this.

Why not just play around with it on some crappie scrap? No harm done for
sure.


don't worry - I always play around on crappie scrap when using techniques
new to me. Also, when I first got this saw I started off by attempting to
use it in exactly the same way as I would a push saw - ie cutting towards
me, saw angled at about 45 degrees, teeth (obviously) pointing downwards.
What I did not experience was any ease whatsoever in starting off the rip
cut, nor in continuing it once started. The teeth would dig in, and there
was huge resistance in cutting, this is why I began to wonder if my normal
western technique could be completely wrong for a Japanese pullsaw when
ripping.

In an attempt to describe what I mean I'll revert back to a western-style
push saw for a moment:

Starting off a rip cut I would position the saw such that the teeth point
downwards, the end of the board is in front of me, the angle of the saw
teeth to the face of the board is at an acute angle, 45 degrees or so, I am
cutting towards me. Sorry if this is stating the obvious but I really want
to get back to first principles here so that there can be absolutely no
misunderstanding. The cut is made on the push stroke.

Now, considering the action of the individual teeth, they have a chiselling
action, cutting out kerf-width bits of the fibre, and the fibres are cut in
such a way that each tooth engages with the topmost edge of the fibre, if
you can see what I mean.

reverting to the japanese saw:

When I use the (rip tooth profile) pullsaw cutting in the same way above
this does not seem to be the cutting action.

True, each tooth still chisels out it's piece of wood, but instead of
starting on the surface of the board when it's cutting it is always digging
into the end grain.

If I was to take a chisel and try to remove a bit of stock along the grain
it is easy to start from the surface of the board and chop out that piece.
If I was to start from the end grain and try and chop towards the surface of
the board it would not be easy and the wood would probably tear out. Stupid
example, perhaps, but illustrates the point.

No matter how lightly I hold the saw aganst the board it digs in.

So, I'm unfamiliar with use of this tool and start trying other techniques
for it's use.

The first thing I try is to turn everything around. Start off with the
board in front of me, facing the board end. Hold saw at 45 degree angle to
board face, with handle pointing downards and teeth down (sorry, being
explicit here again), cutting away from me. Sails through the board like
butter. However, this is obviously impractical for cutting a long rip in a
board. Flip the saw around so that cutting away still, but now handle above
the board and teeth pointing upwards. Also sails through, but obviously you
cannot see the cutting line.

So, sorry if this sounds like a really stupid question/thread, I'm just
puzzled, that's all! If the answer is "use just like you would a western
rip saw" then fine, I'll go away and practice until I get the technique.
IMHO good woodworking is 90% technique, and I like to use correct technique
and refine it until perfect results.



--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"Hoyt Weathers" wrote in message
...
RichardS wrote:

"Hoyt Weathers" wrote in message
...
Mitch Berkson wrote:

Hoyt Weathers wrote:

Have you ever tried turning the board over, mark it, and then cut
it?
Or am I missing something?

Presumably sawdust covers the line if it is on top since the saw
cuts on
the
pull stroke.

Mitch Berkson

The simple solution to that is just intermittently blow away the dust
and
keep on
sawing. I do that all the time on most cuts with a Jap pull saw. It
doesn't take a
rocket scientist to cut a board with a pull saw.


true. I am specifically talking about the technique for ripping a
board
here, and my puzzlement as to why I appear to be experiencing such
difficulty.

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

A light bulb just turned on. Perchance, are you sitting in the Japanese
position
BELOW the board when you try to cut it? [ I would never do that because
saw dust
would get all over me. ] If so, why isn't the cut line also facing you on
that side
of the board? If it is, then what is the problem in following the cut
line?

No, I was trying to work from above the board, but then this might be the
beginning of my error in trying to use a japanese traditional tool in a
western manner. Hopefully my other post might explain the progression of
my experimentation a little more clearly..

If the cut line is on TOP of the board and you are sawing from BELOW the
board, then
I agree with you that the cut could be off the marked cut line.

Cut line is wherever I can see it! :-)

Then my question becomes: Is there a particular reason why you wish to cut
that way?
To each his own I suppose.

Perhaps I am still not getting your point.

hopefully the other post I've just sent might explain a little more clearly.


thanks for your patience so far, btw!

--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

RichardS wrote:

big snip

So, sorry if this sounds like a really stupid question/thread, I'm just
puzzled, that's all! If the answer is "use just like you would a western
rip saw" then fine, I'll go away and practice until I get the technique.
IMHO good woodworking is 90% technique, and I like to use correct technique
and refine it until perfect results.

--
Richard Sampson

snip

Richard, I wish I could draw on a word program but I can't.

1. Keep in mind that the teeth of a Jap saw are very, very sharp - whether they are
rip or cross-cut saws.

2. Both rip and cross-cut Jap saws cut on the pull stroke.

I think it is obvious that you fully understand those two points. I do not wish to
imply that I am challenging you on those.

Forget about edge grain vs. long grain for the moment. They are relevant, but not
significantly so for this discussion at this time.

Yes, those sharp teeth will "dig" in as you say. For a given saw, how much and how
aggressive they dig in depends almost totally upon the sharpness of the teeth and the
amount of vertical pressure you exert on those teeth via the handle as you pull the
saw. Same as for a western saw, except on the push stoke. Within reason the more
pressure you apply, the more aggressive the saw will cut - up to a point.

Keep in mind that the Jap saw can and will bow or kink if pushed too hard and too
deeply on the reverse stroke. Those saw blades are thin because they are designed to
be used in tension and not in compression.

Try this:

Just put the saw with the blade resting on the edge to be cut. Do NOT put any
downward pressure via the handle. Then slowly and lightly pull the saw towards you.
It will try to cut, but is ineffective. It may bounce along, skipity hop, but that is
expected. The teeth tend to dig in, but do not do so very much because there is
almost no downward pressure to the saw teeth. They will just leave a small kerf mark
on the edge. I often do this to make a starter mark.

Then do the same as the above, but with suitable [ ? ] downward pressure via the
handle. Now what happens? The teeth cut into the wood. How much it cuts into the wood
is a direct and proportional function of the force applied to those sharp teeth.
Western physics is identical to Japanese physics.

To reverse the stroke, move the saw forward with no downward pressure at all and
keeping the saw blade deep in the kerf.

Repeat as above until the saw cuts as much as you wish of the board.

I hope the above does not appear to be sophomoric to you. That is certainly not my
intention. Let's keep at this until you are fully satisfied with yourself - not us.

At this point I will stop and pitch it back to you for comments and questions.

Hoyt W.

It may be that your saw is not so sharp. However, it is generally true that
when the angle of the saw and the grain of the wood (on the handle side of a
pull saw) is acute it is slightly more difficult to rip than when it is an
obtuse angle. Change your position until you get it the way you like. You
might consider clamping the wood vertically in a vise with the top of the
wood somewhat below your elbow. Or if that is not achievable you could clamp
it at an angle. Once you get going it shouldn't matter much.

Jack

Jumping in late on this thread but here's something to
add to the differences between push and pull saws -
the former have fixed teeth per inch from handle to
tip while the japanese pull saws often have much
finer teeth at the handle end and graduated to larger
teeth towards the tip. The blade width, not the thickness,
also increases from the handle towards the tip.

So, if the cut is started with the fine teeth, light
pressure and short strokes to initially establish the
line of the cut using the finer teeth, the amount of
wood being "bitten off" by each tooth is very small.

If you watch the motion of the blade from the side
as it's used to rip you'll see the fine teeth do most
of the cutting on the visible face and the coarser
ones mainly cut "inside" an on the back/bottom of
the cut. On the back/bottom of the cut, the teeth
are cutting just like a push saw, acrossed or
"with the grain"

You might want to check out Toshio Odate's book
"Japanese Woodworking Tools, Their Tradition,
Spirit and Use" - Linden Publishing,
ISBN 0-941936-46-5 , $24.95 US, I found
"kataba" and "kataba-nokogiri", kataba being a single
cutting edge saw, ryoba being a double cutting edge,
and "kataba- nokogiri" described as a single cutting
edge rip saw.

Its interesting that the western saw requires that
you push the teeth into the wood, removing it with
brute force. To do that the saw must be stiff and
beefy. Japanese saws works sort of like judo - the
teeth pull small pieces of wood from its surroundings
and less per tooth cut than on a western saw. because,
in tension, the kerf is narrower because the blade
is thinner and the set is narrower.

It's kind of like provoking a response versus evoking
a response. You can try to push the bully over
backwards, but, with proper technique, it's easier
to to get him to contribute most of the energy required
to put him on the ground. Less grunting and sweating
letting the saw do most of the work - but it requires
a bit more focused attention on the task.

babble mode off

charlie b

Perhaps the answer to ease in cutting is to clamp the board horizontal...
Find the best angle for the cut doing it sideways, maybe away from the line
as not to not obscure it. A small sliding wedge would prevent binding as the
cut progresses.
--
Chipper Wood

useours, yours won't work

"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
.. .
reposted from uk.d-i-y


I have a Japanese Kataba saw (the ones in the Axminster catalogue) with a
rip-cut "hassunme" profile. "Just the thing for effortlessly ripping long
boards" they say... well, they would, wouldn't they!

The problem is that I find it exceptionally difficult to use, far from
effortless, in fact so difficult that I assume that there must be
something
drastically wrong with my technique. I'm trying to rip some 20mm(ish)
thick
european oak, but it seems similarly difficult with pine and other woods
that I have tried.

With a traditional (to us) western pattern saw you'd work from the top,
sawing at an angle, and it cuts on the push stroke. So when ripping the
teeth essentially chisel through the fibres at and angle, and thinking
about
it each fibre is supported by the one below it so it's a relatively easy,
clean cut.

However, with a japanese pullsaw it seems to me that working from above
means that the teeth are always digging directly into the end grain, and I
can't square this with an "easy sawing action".

Sawing from underneath (if you see what I mean) is easy, the saw glides
through the wood as I would expect, and I can easily see the cut line on
the
surface. However this isn't a comfortable working position, not practical
for long boards and strikes me as not being the technique at all.

Saw from the top, but hold the saw such that the teeth form an oblique
angle
with the board surface? Fine, works, but how do you follow the cutting
line
(not that you have much chance with a ripsaw if it wanders off the line
anyway)?

Or perhaps it shoudl be held so that the cutting edge is perpendicular to
the board surface?

Anyone care to enlighten me on correct technique?


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"Hoyt Weathers" wrote in message
...
RichardS wrote:

big snip

So, sorry if this sounds like a really stupid question/thread, I'm just
puzzled, that's all! If the answer is "use just like you would a
western
rip saw" then fine, I'll go away and practice until I get the technique.
IMHO good woodworking is 90% technique, and I like to use correct
technique
and refine it until perfect results.

--
Richard Sampson

snip

Richard, I wish I could draw on a word program but I can't.

1. Keep in mind that the teeth of a Jap saw are very, very sharp - whether
they are
rip or cross-cut saws.

2. Both rip and cross-cut Jap saws cut on the pull stroke.

I think it is obvious that you fully understand those two points. I do not
wish to
imply that I am challenging you on those.

Forget about edge grain vs. long grain for the moment. They are relevant,
but not
significantly so for this discussion at this time.

Yes, those sharp teeth will "dig" in as you say. For a given saw, how much
and how
aggressive they dig in depends almost totally upon the sharpness of the
teeth and the
amount of vertical pressure you exert on those teeth via the handle as you
pull the
saw. Same as for a western saw, except on the push stoke. Within reason
the more
pressure you apply, the more aggressive the saw will cut - up to a point.

Keep in mind that the Jap saw can and will bow or kink if pushed too hard
and too
deeply on the reverse stroke. Those saw blades are thin because they are
designed to
be used in tension and not in compression.

Try this:

Just put the saw with the blade resting on the edge to be cut. Do NOT put
any
downward pressure via the handle. Then slowly and lightly pull the saw
towards you.
It will try to cut, but is ineffective. It may bounce along, skipity hop,
but that is
expected. The teeth tend to dig in, but do not do so very much because
there is
almost no downward pressure to the saw teeth. They will just leave a small
kerf mark
on the edge. I often do this to make a starter mark.

Then do the same as the above, but with suitable [ ? ] downward pressure
via the
handle. Now what happens? The teeth cut into the wood. How much it cuts
into the wood
is a direct and proportional function of the force applied to those sharp
teeth.
Western physics is identical to Japanese physics.

To reverse the stroke, move the saw forward with no downward pressure at
all and
keeping the saw blade deep in the kerf.

Repeat as above until the saw cuts as much as you wish of the board.

I hope the above does not appear to be sophomoric to you. That is
certainly not my
intention. Let's keep at this until you are fully satisfied with
yourself - not us.

At this point I will stop and pitch it back to you for comments and
questions.

Hoyt W.

Sorry for delay in reply, not disappeared from thread but work suddenly
exploded and mind been on other things.

Had quite a bit more success this evening, will post back with more tomorrow
morning, family unexpectedly turned up... doh.

It's gonna take a bit more practice, but things are progressing.


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

Hello. I don't own a Japanese saw yet, but with Google am trying to learn. Am I missing something or couldn't you approach the board and draw the saw like a Samurai would draw a sword? When the board becomes to close instead of reaching (potentially dangerous to a Samurai), straddle the board with legs and arms. Anything I should avoid in purchasing a first saw from the internet?

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:57:58 +0100, the inscrutable grasshopper
spake:

Hello. I don't own a Japanese saw yet, but with Google am trying to
learn.

The $25.95 (delivered) Razor Saw from www.japanwoodworker.com
is a great deal for a versatile saw. The Ryoba saw has a rip
tooth config on one side and a crosscut config on the other,
and both have decreasing tooth count toward the far end. This
means that they cut finer close to your hand, coarser toward
the end of the pull stroke. It's a great concept and works very
well in practice.

The Gyokucho 9-1/2" Double Edge Saw (Ryoba Noko Giri) 19.610.0
is what I got from them. I would have ordered the slightly
finer-toothed hardwood saw if I'd known they had a choice. If you
order one, see if they'll let you have a 19.611.0 hardwood saw
instead. 1-800-537-7820 (standard disclaimer applies)


Am I missing something or couldn't you approach the board and
draw the saw like a Samurai would draw a sword? When the board becomes
to close instead of reaching (potentially dangerous to a Samurai),
straddle the board with legs and arms.

With the Japanese "saw on a stick" config, you hold it as you would
a carving knife, but with the index finger pointing toward the blade.
Once started, they can be held any way you like. I have used mine
recently on a neighbor's project (cutting birdhouses from a downed
oak) vertically, in a milk-churn style grip. These things are faster
than my minty fresh Disston rip or crosscut saws. I'm amazed and sold
on the Japanese saw style.


Anything I should avoid in
purchasing a first saw from the internet?

Watch the prices. The really good saws go for upwards of $200 while
the worthless saws go for under $20. Anything priced between those
limits should get you a good saw, But staying with known entities is
always a good choice, too. Lee Valley, The Japan Woodworker, Misugi
are all good names.

--
A lot of folks can't understand how we came
to have an oil shortage here in America.

Well, there's a very simple answer...nobody
bothered to check the oil; We just didn't
know we were getting low.

The reason for that is purely geographical
- our OIL is located in Alaska, California,
Oklahoma and Texas.

Our DIPSTICKS are located in Washington, DC.

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 07:53:52 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:

Anything I should avoid in
purchasing a first saw from the internet?

Watch the prices. The really good saws go for upwards of $200 while
the worthless saws go for under $20. Anything priced between those
limits should get you a good saw, But staying with known entities is
always a good choice, too. Lee Valley, The Japan Woodworker, Misugi
are all good names.


I would add that a sub-20 saw might be a good first saw. Why? Because they
are different there are different motor skills to learn and expectations
to revise. I learned the hard way that those itty-bitty teeth will chip
off if you let the saw hit the bench as the cut finishes. I'd hate to have
learned that lesson on a more expensive saw. I learned the hard way that
hardwood is tough on Japanese saws.

Folks here have given good reviews for Tashiro's saws:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/ , when you want to try something a little
different.

On topic, I picked up an Irwin (evil outcast unclean) kataha noko
giri for 40% off, just for fun. Man, that thing whizzes through wood. Not
a finishing saw, for sure.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:57:58 +0100, the inscrutable grasshopper
spake:


Hello. I don't own a Japanese saw yet, but with Google am trying to
learn.


The $25.95 (delivered) Razor Saw from www.japanwoodworker.com
is a great deal for a versatile saw. The Ryoba saw has a rip
tooth config on one side and a crosscut config on the other,
and both have decreasing tooth count toward the far end. This
means that they cut finer close to your hand, coarser toward
the end of the pull stroke. It's a great concept and works very
well in practice.

The Gyokucho 9-1/2" Double Edge Saw (Ryoba Noko Giri) 19.610.0
is what I got from them. I would have ordered the slightly
finer-toothed hardwood saw if I'd known they had a choice. If you
order one, see if they'll let you have a 19.611.0 hardwood saw
instead. 1-800-537-7820 (standard disclaimer applies)



Am I missing something or couldn't you approach the board and
draw the saw like a Samurai would draw a sword? When the board becomes
to close instead of reaching (potentially dangerous to a Samurai),
straddle the board with legs and arms.


With the Japanese "saw on a stick" config, you hold it as you would
a carving knife, but with the index finger pointing toward the blade.
Once started, they can be held any way you like. I have used mine
recently on a neighbor's project (cutting birdhouses from a downed
oak) vertically, in a milk-churn style grip. These things are faster
than my minty fresh Disston rip or crosscut saws. I'm amazed and sold
on the Japanese saw style.



Anything I should avoid in
purchasing a first saw from the internet?


Watch the prices. The really good saws go for upwards of $200 while
the worthless saws go for under $20. Anything priced between those
limits should get you a good saw, But staying with known entities is
always a good choice, too. Lee Valley, The Japan Woodworker, Misugi
are all good names.



I have some of the "Plastic Versions" from Lee Valley. They work very
well indeed.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek