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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Car screenwasher fluid
Any suggestions on an additive for screenwasher fluid. I have had mine go
stagnant recently - awful smell brought in when they are used. Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. What do people suggest using in the summer - I have been warned off washing up liquid due to its strong degreasing / salty effect. |
#2
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:28:18 +0100, "John"
had this to say: Any suggestions on an additive for screenwasher fluid. I have had mine go stagnant recently - awful smell brought in when they are used. Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. What do people suggest using in the summer - I have been warned off washing up liquid due to its strong degreasing / salty effect. Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) -- Frank Erskine |
#3
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Car screenwasher fluid
"Frank Erskine" wrote:
Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. |
#4
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , DIY writes
"Frank Erskine" wrote: Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. Although I can't find it on their web site at the moment Maplin's sell it by the 1 litre can. -- Bill |
#5
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 14:08:31 +0100, "DIY" had this
to say: "Frank Erskine" wrote: Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. You can buy meths almost anywhere - try an outdoor-type store; it's widely used for such as Trangia stoves. -- Frank Erskine |
#6
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Car screenwasher fluid
DIY wrote:
"Frank Erskine" wrote: Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. You can buy meths in B&Q. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
#7
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Car screenwasher fluid
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. |
#8
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , Bill
wrote In message , DIY writes "Frank Erskine" wrote: Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. Although I can't find it on their web site at the moment Maplin's sell it by the 1 litre can. 5 litre bottles of IPA from CPC Smaller quantities also available - IPA 400ml spray cans @£3 http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/search/br...DXNJROUBV1WCQL CIRJK0Q?N=411&Ntk=gensearch_003&Ntt=isopropyl+alco hol&Ntx=&suggestions=fa lse&searchTerm=isopropyl+alcohol&_requestid=390455 -- Alan news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#9
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Car screenwasher fluid
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Indeed - my experience. I just bought 500ml for about a fiver inc. on ebay - all fine and good (and expensive!) but I've no way of knowing how 'pure' it is. Admittedly I didn't know before with the chemist-sourced stuff - somehow I trusted them a little more though. Rob |
#10
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , Bill
writes In message , DIY writes "Frank Erskine" wrote: Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. Although I can't find it on their web site at the moment Maplin's sell it by the 1 litre can. CPC is cheaper -- geoff |
#11
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , Rob
writes Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Indeed - my experience. I just bought 500ml for about a fiver inc. on ebay - all fine and good (and expensive!) but I've no way of knowing how 'pure' it is. Yeah - might have been cut with trich ... Don't snort it Admittedly I didn't know before with the chemist-sourced stuff - somehow I trusted them a little more though. Rob -- geoff |
#12
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:02:29 UTC, ChipMonk
wrote: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:21:34 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Don't use Meths - your passengers are likely to throw up every time you wash away some crap from your windscreen. IPA smells much nicer, stops bugs and mould growing in reservoir, helps screen cleaning and prevents freezing. Best place to buy it (and lots of other useful chemicals) is: http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/mistral_ie/ I've used meths for the last 38 years and my passengers have never had a problem. I bought the last few lots from B&Q after the local ironmonger retired. I get IPA from CPC all the time. -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
#13
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:28:18 +0100, John wrote:
Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. I buy 5l Holts High Performance Screen Wash concentrate from CostCo (£3.87(*)) and dilute at 4:1 water:wash which doesn't freeze to below -6C. Even though the reservior on my car holds 4l it still lasts about 9 months before running out. That 5l of concentrate is just about to run out now, I don't see much "waste" there and having a fairly potent brew in the summer deals with the fly splat better than weaker "summer" mixtures. (*)Jan '06 price and is green, all I can find on a quick google is blue stuff. Maybe it's no longer available but I haven't noticed it missing in CostCo. -- Cheers Dave. |
#14
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:10:10 UTC, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:28:18 +0100, John wrote: Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. I buy 5l Holts High Performance Screen Wash concentrate from CostCo (£3.87(*)) and dilute at 4:1 water:wash which doesn't freeze to below -6C. Got the same (well, blue) stuff from CPC this week for £4.14 inclusive. -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
#15
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Car screenwasher fluid
In article ,
"Bob Eager" writes: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:10:10 UTC, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:28:18 +0100, John wrote: Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. I buy 5l Holts High Performance Screen Wash concentrate from CostCo (£3.87(*)) and dilute at 4:1 water:wash which doesn't freeze to below -6C. Got the same (well, blue) stuff from CPC this week for £4.14 inclusive. I got one from CPC a few years ago. Was watching the UPS delivery progress on the web, when it suddenly changed to "burst package, returning to sender". I had visions of a UPS van somewhere, with everyones packages floating in a pool of screen wash concentrate... -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#16
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes In article , "Bob Eager" writes: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:10:10 UTC, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:28:18 +0100, John wrote: Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. I buy 5l Holts High Performance Screen Wash concentrate from CostCo (£3.87(*)) and dilute at 4:1 water:wash which doesn't freeze to below -6C. Got the same (well, blue) stuff from CPC this week for £4.14 inclusive. I got one from CPC a few years ago. Was watching the UPS delivery progress on the web, when it suddenly changed to "burst package, returning to sender". I had visions of a UPS van somewhere, with everyones packages floating in a pool of screen wash concentrate... CPC are the kings of crap packing light bulbs and reels of solder loose in the box for example Hand cleaner tub which burst etc etc -- geoff |
#17
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:02:29 +0100, ChipMonk
had this to say: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:21:34 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Don't use Meths - your passengers are likely to throw up every time you wash away some crap from your windscreen. Rubbish - you're suggesting using far too high a concentration. All you need is a couple of tablespoonfuls of meths (not isopropyl alcohol) to the average washerbottle. Apart from in wintertime, I've used meths as an additive for the last 40-mumble years and nobody (admittedly I have few passengers!) has complained, passed out or died as a result. -- Frank Erskine |
#18
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Car screenwasher fluid
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:02:29 +0100, ChipMonk had this to say: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:21:34 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Don't use Meths - your passengers are likely to throw up every time you wash away some crap from your windscreen. Rubbish - you're suggesting using far too high a concentration. All you need is a couple of tablespoonfuls of meths (not isopropyl alcohol) to the average washerbottle. I love the smell of meths! Reminds me of those little stoves we used when I did my Duke of Edinboroughs Award camping & stuff. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
#19
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 14:08:31 +0100, "DIY" had this
to say: "Frank Erskine" wrote: Add a bit of methylated spirit to the water - it'll help to dissolve grease on the screen. Smells nice too :-) The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. Apparently pharmacies are (officially) no longer allowed to 'make up' medicines for 'H&S' reasons, so it's no good asking your local 'chemist' to 'make up', say, a cough bottle - they have to rely on commercial manufacturers to supply the finished product. This is why it's very difficult to buy 'interesting' chemicals such as saltpetre, citric or hydrochloric acid, flowers of sulphur, caustic potash, potassium permanganate or carbon tetrachloride from such suppliers - it's all part of the nanny-state syndrome. Fortunately there are several 'old-timer'-type "chemists" who, if you get to know them, can or will (somehow!) get some of your requirements. It's certainly no use asking in the pharmacy section of Sainsburys, for example :-) -- Frank Erskine |
#20
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:43:59 UTC, geoff wrote:
CPC are the kings of crap packing light bulbs and reels of solder loose in the box for example Had that one. Hand cleaner tub which burst And that. Hard disk loose in big box. One fluorescent tube in layers of bubble wrap with a label on it - bent in the middle on delivery. -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
#21
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Car screenwasher fluid
geoff wrote:
In message , Rob writes Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Indeed - my experience. I just bought 500ml for about a fiver inc. on ebay - all fine and good (and expensive!) but I've no way of knowing how 'pure' it is. Yeah - might have been cut with trich ... Don't snort it It's probably scented water anyway - the bottle has a '70%' label, and not 99.5% as offered. On raising this with the seller he replied: *** Awfully sorry but a batch of 99.4% was shipped with the wrong specification typed onto the label. You have 99.4% in the bottle, it is simply a typing error. *** Incredible - and no offer of remedy. Rob |
#22
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , geoff
wrote CPC are the kings of crap packing light bulbs and reels of solder loose in the box for example Hand cleaner tub which burst I've had items that would have survived a nuclear blast and could have been sent in a Jiffy bag delivered in a large box with the world's total stock of bubble wrap. -- Alan news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot } uk |
#23
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Car screenwasher fluid
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:02:29 +0100, ChipMonk had this to say: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:21:34 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "DIY" saying something like: The problem will be finding someone willing to sell it apart from on the internet. I have tried to buy isopropyl alcohol recently from 2 pharmacies (for cleaning VHS tape recorder heads) but they told me that they are not allowed to stock it or sell it. They lie. The truth is, they have lost touch with their roots and simply can't be arsed stocking it any more. If it's not packeted, bar-coded, and neatly labelled, they don't want to know. Apart from that, the demand for loose chemicals has gone way down, but it's still possible to get it from a lab suppliers. Don't use Meths - your passengers are likely to throw up every time you wash away some crap from your windscreen. Rubbish - you're suggesting using far too high a concentration. All you need is a couple of tablespoonfuls of meths (not isopropyl alcohol) to the average washerbottle. Apart from in wintertime, I've used meths as an additive for the last 40-mumble years and nobody (admittedly I have few passengers!) has complained, passed out or died as a result. I use a few drops of washing up liquid to clean greasy smears. And of course substantial IPA as an antifreeze. It still freezes of course, and makes you feel sick and have a headache on long runs when there is a lot of **** on the roads..rather like the potable IPA (India Pale Ale) in fact. Hmm.. |
#24
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:36:54 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , "Bob Eager" writes: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:10:10 UTC, "Dave Liquorice" wrote: On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:28:18 +0100, John wrote: Using antifreeze stuff in the summer seems a waste. I buy 5l Holts High Performance Screen Wash concentrate from CostCo (£3.87(*)) and dilute at 4:1 water:wash which doesn't freeze to below -6C. Got the same (well, blue) stuff from CPC this week for £4.14 inclusive. I got one from CPC a few years ago. Was watching the UPS delivery progress on the web, when it suddenly changed to "burst package, returning to sender". I had visions of a UPS van somewhere, with everyones packages floating in a pool of screen wash concentrate... An order from Toolstation didn't arrive, 'phoned the next morning: 'damaged in transit'. I had to laugh, as the only item that could be damaged was a 5li can of white emulsion! White van man - inside job! Next day the box arrived. Can in heavy plastic sack sellotaped all over then in bubblewrap. Air bags on top but underneath just the metal friction hinges and the fairly flimsy box. The can was a bit dented, but it's v. thin metal. Packers are at the dim end of the illuminations. -- Peter. The head of a pin will hold more angels if it's been flattened with an angel-grinder. |
#25
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 06:40:24 GMT, Rob wrote:
It's probably scented water anyway - the bottle has a '70%' label, and not 99.5% as offered. On raising this with the seller he replied: *** Awfully sorry but a batch of 99.4% was shipped with the wrong specification typed onto the label. You have 99.4% in the bottle, it is simply a typing error. *** Incredible - and no offer of remedy. The cynic in me says the seller is relying on people not being able to analyise the contents and/or not being bothered to take it to Trading Standards to do the analysis. -- Cheers Dave. |
#26
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Car screenwasher fluid
In message , Bob Eager
writes On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:43:59 UTC, geoff wrote: CPC are the kings of crap packing light bulbs and reels of solder loose in the box for example Had that one. Hand cleaner tub which burst And that. Yeah - I could have gone on, and on, and on ... Hard disk loose in big box. One fluorescent tube in layers of bubble wrap with a label on it - bent in the middle on delivery. That was to make it fit in the box -- geoff |
#27
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Car screenwasher fluid
In article ,
geoff writes: CPC are the kings of crap packing Indeed. light bulbs and reels of solder loose in the box for example Had that one, if you substitute the reels of solder for a burst box of D-cell batteries. The powdered glass was running out of the box corners as you picked it up. Hand cleaner tub which burst etc etc Had to do an order a couple of weeks back. 4 sealed lead acid batteries (12V, 7AH), and 2 coin cells. I was amazed, given that there was no longer a bottom attached to the box, that all the parts were still in it. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#28
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Car screenwasher fluid
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 06:40:24 GMT, Rob wrote: It's probably scented water anyway - the bottle has a '70%' label, and not 99.5% as offered. On raising this with the seller he replied: *** Awfully sorry but a batch of 99.4% was shipped with the wrong specification typed onto the label. You have 99.4% in the bottle, it is simply a typing error. *** Incredible - and no offer of remedy. The cynic in me says the seller is relying on people not being able to analyise the contents and/or not being bothered to take it to Trading Standards to do the analysis. It's difficult to tell - he's just written back and said that he's fulfilled his legal requirements (the name was correct, the concentration was wrong) and as such had no duty to notify anyone of the error, and everyone else who's queried the error has been satisfied. He's got over 5000 +ve feedback. I'm quite surprised he's being so aggressive. Rob |
#29
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Car screenwasher fluid
Rob wrote:
It's difficult to tell - he's just written back and said that he's fulfilled his legal requirements (the name was correct, the concentration was wrong) That's ********. If he offered "Isopropyl alcohol 99.4%" and you bought it as such, then that's what it has to be. I would imagine suing for the cost of replacing his scented water for the right stuff would be an open-and-shut case. Not that a lawsuit is necessarily the right approach for such a small issue, but it is an option and one worth mentioning if he remains arsey. A Moneyclaim Online case is what, about £30? Which he pays when you win. Pete |
#30
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:21:44 UTC, geoff wrote:
In message , Bob Eager writes On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:43:59 UTC, geoff wrote: CPC are the kings of crap packing light bulbs and reels of solder loose in the box for example Had that one. Hand cleaner tub which burst And that. Yeah - I could have gone on, and on, and on ... Hard disk loose in big box. One fluorescent tube in layers of bubble wrap with a label on it - bent in the middle on delivery. That was to make it fit in the box If they'd bothered with a box...! -- The information contained in this post is copyright the poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by http://www.diybanter.com |
#31
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Car screenwasher fluid
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:19:36 +0100, Pete Verdon wrote:
It's difficult to tell - he's just written back and said that he's fulfilled his legal requirements (the name was correct, the concentration was wrong) That's ********. If he offered "Isopropyl alcohol 99.4%" and you bought it as such, then that's what it has to be. Quite. It could be a labling error or he could be trying it on. Before taking further proceedings it needs to be acertained what the concentration actually is. I'm not sure how one could do that simply at home. I guess one could heat some gently in a pan with a thermomter and slowly drive off the alcohol until the temp starts to rise significantly above 82C (IPA boiling point) and see how much liquid is left at that point. If there is still 25% or so left you don't have 99.4%... You'd then need to get a proper analysis done to have a case for trading standards/court. -- Cheers Dave. |
#32
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Car screenwasher fluid
In uk.d-i-y, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:19:36 +0100, Pete Verdon wrote: It's difficult to tell - he's just written back and said that he's fulfilled his legal requirements (the name was correct, the concentration was wrong) That's ********. If he offered "Isopropyl alcohol 99.4%" and you bought it as such, then that's what it has to be. Quite. It could be a labling error or he could be trying it on. Before taking further proceedings it needs to be acertained what the concentration actually is. I'm not sure how one could do that simply at home. Measure exactly a litre and weigh it using your digital kitchen scales. At 20 degrees C, 99.4% will weigh 792g, and 70% will weigh 867g. See: http://www.separationprocesses.com/C...Property01.htm (That table deals in percentages by weight and for all I know yours could be by volume. But I think it's close enough for your purposes.) -- Mike Barnes |
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