I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

knob and tube is ungrounded, as was lots of Romex installed in the 50's and
60's . In some places its unprotected and subject to mechanical damage. The
stuff is OLD, but in my experience, most of the K&T I've seen, has been in
excellent condition, unlike rubber covered conductors of BX cables from the
40's and 50's, which breaks down and crumbles from heat. I would ultimately
replace it, but I wouldn't feel in any hurry to do it yesterday


wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

wrote:
I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this
home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at
the time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

Knob and tube is not, by nature, dangerous. It happens to be a very
save system The real problem is it is no longer used and has not been used
for a very long time. Therefore it is not up to modern expectations, like
having a ground or being able to supply a good size room A/C unit.

You need to check with local codes, including those that may only apply
to rental property to determine if you need to do any replacement. Likely,
and logically, if you are doing work in an area and it is convenient to
replace the K&T at that time, you should. Don't mix it on the same circuit
for example.

Stick to code and you will be safe.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

probably CANT get homeowners or a mortage with K&T most insurance
wouldnt cover it as a fire hazard.

connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it.
unlike today all coinnections are in boxes.

after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine
fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it
out.

in a closed wall the house will go up in smoke.

have friends whos homeowners inspected their home and REQUIRED rewiring
for just this reason.

deduct cost of rewire from home sale price and for futher savings get a
home inspector they arent perfect but every trouble they find is money
in your pocket.

call your insurance agent and ask about K&T and please report back here
what they tell you...

K&T would be safe IF the connections had been made in BOXES but back
then no one thought of it

wrote:

I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is
unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance
for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid
about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is
unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance
for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid
about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs.

Pete C.

At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out
that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite
a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to
the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if
any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's
not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground).

Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a
ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just
replacing the outlets with GFIs?

I'm working on a clients house that has K&T. It's a very large house
and the entire 2nd floor and part of the first is K&T and on one
breaker! These people were running an ac unit and 3 TVs plus all the
lights. The problem with replacing this stuff is that all the
connections are buried and hard to find. I've had to make large
inspection holes to make sure I've pulled out all of the connections.
I've also had a neighbor not quite completely close a hot water
radiator bleed vent. The dripping water from the second floor ran down
a major junction of mineral coated K&T in the kitchen. It started a
fire in the wall where there were 5 switches. The responding firemen
had to completely chop out the wall and part of the ceiling to make
sure the fire was out.
Richard

wrote:
probably CANT get homeowners or a mortage with K&T most insurance
wouldnt cover it as a fire hazard.

connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it.
unlike today all coinnections are in boxes.

after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine
fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it
out.

in a closed wall the house will go up in smoke.

have friends whos homeowners inspected their home and REQUIRED rewiring
for just this reason.

deduct cost of rewire from home sale price and for futher savings get a
home inspector they arent perfect but every trouble they find is money
in your pocket.

call your insurance agent and ask about K&T and please report back here
what they tell you...

K&T would be safe IF the connections had been made in BOXES but back
then no one thought of it

Pete C. wrote:

wrote:

I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.


The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is
unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance
for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid
about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs.

Pete C.


Pete nailed it. Start with a call to Insur agent.

Jim

wrote:
after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine
fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it
out.

The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the
circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are
protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the
circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are
protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades.
--
Tom Horne


OBVIOUSLY you dont know enough about solder, over LONG times it wiskers
and detoriates. now K&T is likey 50 years old or more, and quality of
metals and solder wasnt great way back then.

I fix office machines for a living, at one time did tv and other
appliance repair. in that time every now and then would find a bad
solder joint, that had workewd forever. frequently in low power
circuits where it wasnt and couldnt be overloaded.

Insurance doesnt like K&T because it cost them too much in fire
losses,,,,,,,

otherwise they wouldnt care!!

you go right ahead thinking K&T is safe, all those insurancer companies
just dont know what they are talking about

wrote:

after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire...

No. Fuses and circuit breakers prevent that.

Nick

wrote:

The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the
circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are
protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades.
--
Tom Horne

OBVIOUSLY you dont know enough about solder, over LONG times it wiskers
and detoriates. now K&T is likey 50 years old or more, and quality of
metals and solder wasnt great way back then.

I fix office machines for a living, at one time did tv and other
appliance repair. in that time every now and then would find a bad
solder joint, that had workewd forever. frequently in low power
circuits where it wasnt and couldnt be overloaded.

Insurance doesnt like K&T because it cost them too much in fire
losses,,,,,,,

otherwise they wouldnt care!!

you go right ahead thinking K&T is safe, all those insurancer companies
just dont know what they are talking about

Below are a couple of links to consider wrt knob & tube wiring.
Although my experience is limited, the times I have seen crumbling
wire insulation with K&T is where it joined ceiling light fixtures,
and that was because of the heat (over heating) due to the fixtures.

In some such cases it was possible to (properly) solder a replacement
extension onto such a wire and then use a sleeve to cover that, followed
by the installation of a junction box to hold the wire safely in place
and connect to the fixture.

Whenever possible I replace K&T, but when not reasonable to replace,
I would be sure the circuit is on a 15A max breaker. Usually
receptacles, which is where the greatest loads exist, and where a ground
is especially desirable, can be more easily rewired with romex.

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm

These links are especially interesting and deserve a full reading.
My comments are just my own opinions and ideas. --Phil

Since the days of knob-and-tube, a lot of experience has been gained from a
safety standpoint. Many changes have been made to the electrical code which
make things a whole lot safer. And the safety aspect means protection of
life and property.

Over the years there have been fires and people electrocuted for this or
that reason. Then the electrical codes have been changed to prevent these
things from happening in the future.

With that said, the safest thing to do would be to re-wire the house to the
latest electrical codes.

Also many years ago they did not have the electrical needs we have today. So
there is the daily pain in the you know what factor. Not enough outlets,
many rooms on one circuit and not enough capacity. Old outlets where you
need to jiggle the plug in the outlet to get it to work, etc.

Having all new grounded wiring and plenty of outlets/capacity can make
day-to-day living a whole lot more pleasant. It's nice to have outlets where
you need them and not need to jiggle the plug to get it to work.

wrote:
I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

No, its not always dangerous. As Joseph said, its not inherently dangerous.

Here are circumstances when it is dangerous.

- When a ground is needed by a device and its not available.
- when it has been extended or hacked onto by somone not knowing what
they are doing
- when the fuse has been "upgraded" to a larger one because it kept blowing
- Then the wire is overloaded

Remember - when it was installed there were no hair dryers, electric
curing irons, air conditioners, PCs, microwaves, etc.

It becomes unsafe when people try to add on more outlets to accommodate
these things.

Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
wrote:
after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine
fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it
out.

The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the
circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are
protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

I won't disagree, but will point out that it has been in place for
decades- at least 6 of 'em, if not more.

D

in
ups.com:

connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it.
unlike today all coinnections are in boxes.

never seen that, maybe that's the older knob and tube. i've seen 50's stuff that was
connected properly in boxes with the short piece of "loom" thru box holes. (as well as i
recall)

i've also seen separate ground wire for old two-conductor romex (kitchens) that had twisted
and soldered connections. i guess if ground wire went into rare effect (lots of current)
accumulated debris in wall could light up.

older houses had no insulation, so if adding insulation, i think you'd have to replace wiring
or guess (!hahahaaaaaa) at how far to derate current for knob and tube.

One problem with K&T is that whatever the condition of the original
material, it's seldom properly connected to more modern wiring:

http://www.codecheck.com/images/CCWe18.gif

and every incorrect junction is a potential problem.

Another is that users may overload K&T circuits - a single K&T circuit
often serves potential loads that would be split between multiple
circuits in a more recenly installed system. In my area it's not
unusual to find a single K&T circuit powering all the lights and
receptacles in three or four bedrooms and a bath on a top floor, but
power demands have increased (no window ACs back then!) and users many
be tempted to "overfuse" such circuits in an attempt to supply
sufficient power to loads at multiple locations on a single circuit.

So depending on the situation, when you have electrician throughly
inspect a K&T installation and identify existing defects you will often
find it's also desirable to pull additional circuits to meet modern
demands - in which case it's likely not all that much more expensive
to bypass the K&T with new circuits entirely.

Michael Thomas
Paragon Home Inspection, LLC
mdt@paragoninspectsDOTcom
847-475-5668

..

Insurance KNOWS its fire hazard rate is higher, and buying a preowned
home its possible others did unsafe changes to the wiring.

Things DONBT last forever and K&T is just another thing.........

solder can and does fail over time espically if anyone used acid flux
when making repairs, its great for plumbing but unsafe for electrical
wires.

if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring.....
thanks

wrote:
Insurance KNOWS its fire hazard rate is higher, and buying a preowned
home its possible others did unsafe changes to the wiring.

Things DONBT last forever and K&T is just another thing.........

solder can and does fail over time espically if anyone used acid flux
when making repairs, its great for plumbing but unsafe for electrical
wires.

if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring.....
thanks

Hi, I'm not defending K&T and I do not own any property with it. I was
just pointing out what makes it unsafe. Realities of todays lifestyles
with everything electronic and AC in every room make it very likely that
K&T has been scabbed on to and over loaded. Thats what makes it unsafe.
If K&T were just used for a couple of overhead lights and wall socket
for a lamp and never was over loaded and the fuse was of a proper size,
and always has been, then I would not be concerned.

If, as I stated, it has been messed with, added on to, over loaded, a
larger fuse used, remodeled around, etc. I would not be comfortable with
it.

So, most likely its unsafe or someone will make it unsafe my replacing a
15A fuse with a 30A fuse, swapping an outlet for a grounded outlet
without hooking up the ground then running their window AC, hairdryer
and PC off of that outlet. Thats when it becomes unsafe.

On 25 Jul 2006 06:41:06 -0700, "z" wrote:


Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is
unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance
for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid
about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs.

Pete C.

At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out
that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite
a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to
the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if
any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's
not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground).

Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a
ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just
replacing the outlets with GFIs?

No, you need the ground. That's an important part of the whole
system.

And you have the electric field problem exactly backwards. The
widely spaced conductors will carry about half the field strength of
normal wiring. Those two conductors in normal wiring are both
throwing off electric fields.

wrote in message
...
wrote:

after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire...

No. Fuses and circuit breakers prevent that.

Fuses and breakers protect against overcurrent situations - not overheating due
to
deteriorating connections.

Bob

On 25 Jul 2006 10:24:34 -0700, "
wrote:

Insurance KNOWS its fire hazard rate is higher, and buying a preowned
home its possible others did unsafe changes to the wiring.

Things DONBT last forever and K&T is just another thing.........

solder can and does fail over time espically if anyone used acid flux
when making repairs, its great for plumbing but unsafe for electrical
wires.

if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring.....
thanks


Mine does. In an english-style loop around the attic,
feeding the attic lights, and drops to all the outlets
on the second floor.

It hasn't burnt down yet.

As long as you remember that you've got a
60 year old wiring system, and don't abuse
it, it should be fine. When you GET
the chance to replace it you should, but
it shouldn't be a deal-breaker on an otherwise
good house.

Bob wrote:

Fuses and breakers protect against overcurrent situations - not overheating
due to deteriorating connections.

Would you have any evidence that solder connections deteriorate over time,
if they are not overheated?

Nick

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 07:01:00 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

knob and tube is ungrounded, as was lots of Romex installed in the 50's and
60's . In some places its unprotected and subject to mechanical damage. The
stuff is OLD, but in my experience, most of the K&T I've seen, has been in
excellent condition, unlike rubber covered conductors of BX cables from the
40's and 50's, which breaks down and crumbles from heat. I would ultimately
replace it, but I wouldn't feel in any hurry to do it yesterday


wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.



I wish they still used K+T wiring. It was the safest method
available, except for those funky exposed scrrews on the turn
switches. All they need to do is put a cover over the switches and
add a 3rd wire for grounding.

JimL wrote:

On 25 Jul 2006 06:41:06 -0700, "z" wrote:


Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes
she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of
Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a
particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this
AM.

One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube.

I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of
knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to
go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get
some fresh insights.

From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home
is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My
family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and
won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the
time of sale; hence, my post.

Thank you as always for your responses.

The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is
unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance
for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid
about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs.

Pete C.

At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out
that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite
a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to
the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if
any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's
not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground).

Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a
ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just
replacing the outlets with GFIs?

No, you need the ground. That's an important part of the whole
system.

You *can* use GFCIs on circuits without grounds as a retrofit. They will
not provide the full protection that they do with the ground connection,
but they do provide some protection. The GFCIs come packaged with labels
that include a "No equipment ground" warning label for just such
applications. It is still far better to just rewire if at all possible.


And you have the electric field problem exactly backwards. The
widely spaced conductors will carry about half the field strength of
normal wiring. Those two conductors in normal wiring are both
throwing off electric fields.

Those two conductors are throwing off opposite fields that will cancel.
This is why clamp on amp probes (not the new hall effect type) have to
be clamped around just one of the conductors.

Pete C.

MDT at Paragon Home Inspections, LLC wrote:
One problem with K&T is that whatever the condition of the original
material, it's seldom properly connected to more modern wiring:

http://www.codecheck.com/images/CCWe18.gif

and every incorrect junction is a potential problem.

Another is that users may overload K&T circuits - a single K&T circuit
often serves potential loads that would be split between multiple
circuits in a more recenly installed system. In my area it's not
unusual to find a single K&T circuit powering all the lights and
receptacles in three or four bedrooms and a bath on a top floor, but
power demands have increased (no window ACs back then!) and users many
be tempted to "overfuse" such circuits in an attempt to supply
sufficient power to loads at multiple locations on a single circuit.

So depending on the situation, when you have electrician throughly
inspect a K&T installation and identify existing defects you will often
find it's also desirable to pull additional circuits to meet modern
demands - in which case it's likely not all that much more expensive
to bypass the K&T with new circuits entirely.

Michael Thomas
Paragon Home Inspection, LLC
mdt@paragoninspectsDOTcom
847-475-5668

.
I agree with all of this but the most dangerous part are comnnections
buried in walls where they cant be inspected and may catch fire under a
long list of possible reasons.

insurance has good reasons for their rules...........

wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:

Fuses and breakers protect against overcurrent situations - not overheating
due to deteriorating connections.

Would you have any evidence that solder connections deteriorate over time,
if they are not overheated?

No

Bob

Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all
have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why
insurance companies would have any problem with it



wrote in message
oups.com...
probably CANT get homeowners or a mortage with K&T most insurance
wouldnt cover it as a fire hazard.

connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it.
unlike today all coinnections are in boxes.

after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection
can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine
fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it
out.

in a closed wall the house will go up in smoke.

have friends whos homeowners inspected their home and REQUIRED rewiring
for just this reason.

deduct cost of rewire from home sale price and for futher savings get a
home inspector they arent perfect but every trouble they find is money
in your pocket.

call your insurance agent and ask about K&T and please report back here
what they tell you...

K&T would be safe IF the connections had been made in BOXES but back
then no one thought of it

RBM wrote:

Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all
have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why
insurance companies would have any problem with it


SNIP

It's true, nonetheless.

This is one of many citations regarding it:

http://info.insure.com/home/knobtube.html

Jim

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all
have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why
insurance companies would have any problem with it


I've been hearing stories about K&T related cancellations for several years.

Bob

In article . com,
" wrote:

if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring.....

I just returned from my daughter and son-in-law's "new" home in Davenport,
Iowa. Within the lathe-and-plaster walls on the two, finished floors, it is
ALL knob-and-tube wiring. It never occurred (until now) to ask if they had
trouble getting insurance. I assume they did NOT as they now have a nice
mortgage.

All exposed wiring in the basement has been replaced. When the house's
service panel was upgraded, the main and second-floor circuits (knob-and-tube)
were placed on 20-amp breakers. This was, and probably still is, compliant
with NEC.

Knob-and-tube wiring may not be very good but, in its original form, it is NOT
the hazard some claim.

To answer the Subject above, K&T is NOT always dangerous. People with their
over-sized fuses, pennies and half-assed taps ARE.
--

JR

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Insurance KNOWS its fire hazard rate is higher, and buying a preowned
home its possible others did unsafe changes to the wiring.

Things DONBT last forever and K&T is just another thing.........

solder can and does fail over time espically if anyone used acid flux
when making repairs, its great for plumbing but unsafe for electrical
wires.

if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring.....
thanks


Hey Holler Butt please quote references that it's unsafe. Not YOUR opinions we
want FACTS!! You shoot your mouth off with unsubstantiated BS. Why don't you
just shut up? You also don't know plumbing either. Readers look up this
clowns posts and decide for yourself.
--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

insurance has good reasons for their rules...........

Right, to keep shareholders happy.
--
Tekkie

I read what Jim sent, which makes sense for any potential fire hazard. Any
wiring in poor condition would be a risk for an insurance company


"Bob" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they
all
have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine
why
insurance companies would have any problem with it


I've been hearing stories about K&T related cancellations for several
years.

Bob

As it happens I've just been updating my list of issues that affect
underwriting in Chicago and Suburbs, based on conversations with local
agents. The most common issues a

Roofs obviously near end of their useful lives.

Porches or stairs with missing or damaged railings.

Coverage of large areas with ivy or other similar plants (for example,
State Farm).

EIFS or Dryvit synthetic stucco over *frame* construction.

Frame buildings in close proximity to another structure (especially a
problem in Chicago).

Any fused (as oposed to circuit breaker) based systems, even if 100A in
good conditon.

Knob and Tube wiring

For some companies, *any* electrical service less than 100A (or
example, Hartford).

Generally, for pre-1900 construction some companies (for example,
Hartford) expect to see major updating of systems such as electrical
and HVAC.

If an applicant states that there has been recent updating some
companies (for example, Allstate) may request to review receipts for
the repairs, and expect that these will be from a "licensed
contractor".

Previous claims or inquiries discovered during a CLUE search,
especially for water damage.

Properly installed and maintained K&T is quite safe, though it would
be a good idea to install GFCI outlets (properly labeled "no
equipment ground").

The problem comes if it either wasn't a great installation in the
first place, or if it's been tampered with or damaged.

A good solder joint will last a century or longer, but a bad one can
get worse over time, e.g. corrosion from leftover flux, a cold joint
developing increasing resistance, etc. Depending on the age of the
house, the wiring may have been soldered using irons heated over a
fire, which made cold joints more likely since the iron didn't
maintain a constant temperature.

Many times you'll find amateurish additions to K&T systems, I've seen
Romex twisted on and wrapped in duct tape for added lights or
outlets.

Some homeowners have blown insulation over wiring that was fine in
open air, but gets too hot without air circulation.

My own house was almost entirely K&T when we bought it, mostly on one
breaker (and a Zinsco breaker at that), so the insurance inspection
was more detailed than usual, and the inspector asked about what
appliances were going to be used in which rooms so he could get a
better idea of whether the wiring would be safe as we were using it.
No trouble once it was inspected and approved, but not every
insurance company will accept K&T.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

In article .com,
says...
As it happens I've just been updating my list of issues that affect
underwriting in Chicago and Suburbs, based on conversations with local
agents.

As an insurance agent, I wish more home inspectors were aware of what
conditions can lead to insurance problems.

Insurance companies aren't just worried about gross deficiencies,
they're worried about anything that significantly increases the risk
of loss. A house can be fully code-compliant and structurally sound,
but still be very difficult to insure.

There's nothing more frustrating than telling a first-time home buyer
that their dream house doesn't qualify for standard insurance.
Almost inevitably, the first words out of their mouths are, "But it
passed inspection!"

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

insurance has good reasons for their rules...........

Right, to keep shareholders happy.
--
Tekkie

hey insurance wants to minimize payouts and make money, statistics show
K&T has more troubles and how many people really WANT a house fire?

Its risks injury and death, let alone the mental part of your home
burning, losing a place to live, and possesions.

We had fire victims here for over 7 months, the whole thing mnessed
them up

Phil Munro wrote:

wrote:


The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the
circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are
protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades.
--
Tom Horne



OBVIOUSLY you dont know enough about solder, over LONG times it wiskers
and detoriates. now K&T is likey 50 years old or more, and quality of
metals and solder wasnt great way back then.

I fix office machines for a living, at one time did tv and other
appliance repair. in that time every now and then would find a bad
solder joint, that had workewd forever. frequently in low power
circuits where it wasnt and couldnt be overloaded.

Insurance doesnt like K&T because it cost them too much in fire
losses,,,,,,,

otherwise they wouldnt care!!

you go right ahead thinking K&T is safe, all those insurancer companies
just dont know what they are talking about

Below are a couple of links to consider wrt knob & tube wiring.
Although my experience is limited, the times I have seen crumbling
wire insulation with K&T is where it joined ceiling light fixtures,
and that was because of the heat (over heating) due to the fixtures.

In some such cases it was possible to (properly) solder a replacement
extension onto such a wire and then use a sleeve to cover that, followed
by the installation of a junction box to hold the wire safely in place
and connect to the fixture.

Whenever possible I replace K&T, but when not reasonable to replace,
I would be sure the circuit is on a 15A max breaker. Usually
receptacles, which is where the greatest loads exist, and where a ground
is especially desirable, can be more easily rewired with romex.

http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm

These links are especially interesting and deserve a full reading.
My comments are just my own opinions and ideas. --Phil

Great links, probably not read by hallerb.

I agree that K&T is basically reliable. IMHO insurance denial for K&T
(and some other causes in this thread) is in fact redlining.

I have seen 2 failures of soldered joints. Both were bad when made. One
was K&T, one was BX in a metal box.

I have read, don't know if it is true, that K&T are still installed
where flooding is a problem because it dries out better.

bud--

Pete C. wrote:


At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out
that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite
a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to
the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if
any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's
not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground).

Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a
ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just
replacing the outlets with GFIs?

No, you need the ground. That's an important part of the whole
system.


You *can* use GFCIs on circuits without grounds as a retrofit. They will
not provide the full protection that they do with the ground connection,
but they do provide some protection. The GFCIs come packaged with labels
that include a "No equipment ground" warning label for just such
applications. It is still far better to just rewire if at all possible.


Leakage to equipment connected to a ground wire may trip the GFCI, an
advantage. But the GFCI protection is not impaired. (Probably the same
as what you said.)


And you have the electric field problem exactly backwards. The
widely spaced conductors will carry about half the field strength of
normal wiring. Those two conductors in normal wiring are both
throwing off electric fields.


Those two conductors are throwing off opposite fields that will cancel.
This is why clamp on amp probes (not the new hall effect type) have to
be clamped around just one of the conductors.


Restating, 2 conductors in close proximity, like Romex, have the
electric and magnetic field substantially cancelled. The strength of the
magnetic field is proportional to the size of the loop formed by the
wires. z was right. But tin-foil-hats do provide complete protection.

bud--