First, let me say this isn't meant to be a whining post, just looking for
guidance. I'm running into what I can only describe as sheer frustration
lately with getting anything right in the woodshop. My jointer knives need
sharpening so I got the Veritas honing jig (don't ask me why I didn't just
get new blades). I thought sharpening should be easy using this. I was
doing the Scary Sharp thing for what seemed like hours and could not get one
knife sharp. No they aren't carbide blades. I mean it may as well have been
an eraser on the end. I could not even get the wire edge with 60 grit
sandpaper so I went to the bench grinder...mistake. Shwoop, into the trash
they go.

Well I have some hand planes I wanted to try anyway, maybe I can joint my
project edges by hand. I picked up some planes off Ebay, and a couple at
flea market sales. I spent maybe $150 on a #4, 5, 6, 7. But getting them
in working order has been a,..umm.challenge. The frog on the 7 won't keep
the iron straight - I have to move the adjustment lever waaaay over almost
bending it in half to getthe bevel sticking out straight and not skewed.
Then it won't stay this way. I can't get the sharpening thing down on any
of the blades. I have Lee's book on sharpening, but can't find anything on
how you grind the initial bevel? No way I'm trying the bench grinder again.
I tried the stationary belt sander and did nothing but make a mess. I got
what I thought was a close bevel, but using the Veritas honing jig the honed
line always seems skewed - I could never get it perpendicular to the blade
edges.... Finally I got close (after 3 hours), then tried planing the
edges...but my jointed edges do not make an invisible seam when glued
together...argh..saw it in half...start over.

I go in there thinking that I have to do all these things like the pros do..
sharpen like a wiz, plane like a pro. And I know I'm trying this all on my
own without anyone to guide me along. So, is it better to toss the old
tools, start with new planes and get new blades etc., and a Tormek or Makita
wet grinder for sharpening? It seems like I've spending way more time
just trying to fix and fiddle with stuff or tools that are already crippled
and attempt to learn repair, sharpening etc. than actually working wood.

Sigh.

Dukester wrote:
snip of long story
don't get new planes or blades, what you have now is superior
unless you're going to spend a lot of money. Find someone to
teach you haow to sharpen instead. If we knew where you are you
might have a chance of gettingsome help. Over to you.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

Dave in Fairfax wrote in
:

Dukester wrote:
snip of long story
don't get new planes or blades, what you have now is superior
unless you're going to spend a lot of money. Find someone to
teach you haow to sharpen instead. If we knew where you are you
might have a chance of gettingsome help. Over to you.

Dave in Fairfax

Dave's right. You're 90% of the way there. Whatever it is that you're
missing is likely a) important and b) not something we can see from here.

But what you're trying to do is not rocket science.

BTW, send the jointer blades out to be done. That's cheap and reliable.

Patriarch

So the sloppy throat adjustment and messed up frog mechanisms are fixable?
Between Memphis, TN and Jackson, MS btw. Back to you.

"Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message
...
Dukester wrote:
snip of long story
don't get new planes or blades, what you have now is superior
unless you're going to spend a lot of money. Find someone to
teach you haow to sharpen instead. If we knew where you are you
might have a chance of gettingsome help. Over to you.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

Duke, Take a day off... then try again.
Sharpening tools is much like the art of working wood. It's learned through
practice and patience, and if your new, ya have to start at the bottom and
work your way up. As a learning exercise, I'd suggest taking a chisel (any
chisel) and learn to scary sharpen it with the veritas jig you have and just
focus on making that chisel the sharpest tool in your shop. Very
Important - Make sure you have a flat surface to work on to start with. A
piece of glass, MDF or whatever, so long as it is dead flat. Start by
lapping the back of the chisel until it's flat. I'd suggest starting with
400 grit for a new chisel, but you'll have to determine how much metal needs
removed and the best grit to use here, however, I wouldn't suggest anything
coarser than 220. Did you get the angle gauge with your jig also? This
really helps in keeping things consistent. (I like to put a 25deg angle on
my chisels) Anyway, after the back is flat and honed, chuck the chisel in
your jig. Make sure it is as square in the jig as possible, and work it
over the sandpaper (I'd start with 220g and then 320, 400, 600 etc..) Make a
few strokes and check to make sure the edge is straight with the jig. I
usually take about 30 strokes on each grit up to 1500g to get a scary sharp
edge, finishing it off with a few strokes on the back to get the wire edge
off than it's off to the bench grinder that's fitted with a buffing wheel.
A charge with some polishing rouge and after a few seconds buffing, I have a
chisel that is shiny as chrome and could shave a hair off a gnats ass. Once
you have it sharpened, try slicing off a little endgrain of a board. It
should go easy with a little force or light tapping with a mallet, but
should slice the wood nicely.
This is the method I use for plane irons also. Your #7 may have other
issues besides the sharpness of the iron.
I do use my bench grinder to sharpen many other tools, such as turning
tools, but I really like the results I get from the sandpaper. I don't know
if a Tormek is the answer to all the sharpening situations, and for what it
costs, I may never.
Hope this helps, --dave
"Dukester" wrote in message
. ..
First, let me say this isn't meant to be a whining post, just looking
for
guidance. I'm running into what I can only describe as sheer frustration
lately with getting anything right in the woodshop. My jointer knives need
sharpening so I got the Veritas honing jig (don't ask me why I didn't just
get new blades). I thought sharpening should be easy using this. I was
doing the Scary Sharp thing for what seemed like hours and could not get
one
knife sharp. No they aren't carbide blades. I mean it may as well have
been
an eraser on the end. I could not even get the wire edge with 60 grit
sandpaper so I went to the bench grinder...mistake. Shwoop, into the
trash
they go.

Well I have some hand planes I wanted to try anyway, maybe I can joint my
project edges by hand. I picked up some planes off Ebay, and a couple at
flea market sales. I spent maybe $150 on a #4, 5, 6, 7. But getting them
in working order has been a,..umm.challenge. The frog on the 7 won't keep
the iron straight - I have to move the adjustment lever waaaay over almost
bending it in half to getthe bevel sticking out straight and not skewed.
Then it won't stay this way. I can't get the sharpening thing down on any
of the blades. I have Lee's book on sharpening, but can't find anything
on
how you grind the initial bevel? No way I'm trying the bench grinder
again.
I tried the stationary belt sander and did nothing but make a mess. I
got
what I thought was a close bevel, but using the Veritas honing jig the
honed
line always seems skewed - I could never get it perpendicular to the blade
edges.... Finally I got close (after 3 hours), then tried planing the
edges...but my jointed edges do not make an invisible seam when glued
together...argh..saw it in half...start over.

I go in there thinking that I have to do all these things like the pros
do..
sharpen like a wiz, plane like a pro. And I know I'm trying this all on
my
own without anyone to guide me along. So, is it better to toss the old
tools, start with new planes and get new blades etc., and a Tormek or
Makita
wet grinder for sharpening? It seems like I've spending way more time
just trying to fix and fiddle with stuff or tools that are already
crippled
and attempt to learn repair, sharpening etc. than actually working wood.

Sigh.

Dukester wrote:

of the blades. I have Lee's book on sharpening, but can't find anything
on
how you grind the initial bevel? No way I'm trying the bench grinder

I tried doing it on my belt sander, but then I eventually realized I have a
bunch of screwed up plane irons in my inventory. Not screwed up beyond
salvaging, but screwed up enough that I'm back to doing it the old
fashioned way. The sander was not removing material evenly, even though I
did everything humanly possible to ensure that it should have every
opportunity to do so. Sigh.

So now I get the initial bevel the same way I do everything else. One
stroke at a time. It's extremely tedious, and takes forever, but there's
almost no opportunity to screw anything up at that speed.

I tried the stationary belt sander and did nothing but make a mess. I
got what I thought was a close bevel, but using the Veritas honing jig the
honed line always seems skewed - I could never get it perpendicular to the
blade
edges.... Finally I got close (after 3 hours), then tried planing the

It's tricky. It helps to check with a square against both sides of the iron
or chisel before setting the knob. Make sure both sides are square, then
it pretty much has to be really square. Then tighten the absolute hell out
of the knob. Then be very, very, very, very careful not to skew the
iron/chisel as you work. Even with the knob as tight as humanly possible,
it's still possible to knock it out of alignment with a well-placed fart.

edges...but my jointed edges do not make an invisible seam when glued
together...argh..saw it in half...start over.

Jointing with hand planes is kind of a bitch. Not a good way to start off
learning to use hand planes. In fact, I finally sucked it up and bought a
mechanical jointer to solve this particular problem. It turned out to be a
real bitch to get things to come out right with that too. Sigh. But if I
don't remove much material, I don't have much opportunity to turn perfectly
good wood into trapezoids.

tools, start with new planes and get new blades etc., and a Tormek or
Makita
wet grinder for sharpening? It seems like I've spending way more time

If I had $300 to blow without feeling any pain, I would buy one of these in
a heartbeat:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...35&cat=1,43072

just trying to fix and fiddle with stuff or tools that are already
crippled and attempt to learn repair, sharpening etc. than actually
working wood.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but I'm muddling through. My stuff works in
spite of the edges that aren't quite square.

http://users.adelphia.net/~silvan/sm...p-p1010025.jpg

Some of them are really markedly not quite square, like really not even
remotely close to square, like really skewed all to hell. But they still
make shavings. Planes with bungled irons like this are completely
worthless for jointing though.

Anyway, I feel your pain. The boat I'm in is a little different. I have
all these mirror polished edges, and I thought I was a world class
sharpener, plane slinger and tweaker and fettler extraordinaire, but then I
discovered that I had bungled damn near every plane I own without even
noticing. Some sharpener I am. I also discovered really pronounced
shiplapping on a project I thought I had done such a good job of planing.
Turns out I actually suck at this. Oh well, nobody else noticed, and that
project has been in use for over a year now without anyone seeing the
shiplapping until I specifically went looking for it.

So the lesson you can take from this is that screw-ups like us can still
make stuff out of wood anyway. Screw it. It's not like we're getting
paid, right? We still make better stuff, mungled and bungled and
beflungled though it may be, than the vast majority of tool-less wimp wussy
boys who don't know which end of a hammer to use to open a paint can.

Cheer up.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"Dukester" wrote in message
. ..
First, let me say this isn't meant to be a whining post, just looking
for
guidance. I'm running into what I can only describe as sheer frustration
lately with getting anything right in the woodshop.

SNIP

It seems like I've spending way more time
just trying to fix and fiddle with stuff or tools that are already
crippled
and attempt to learn repair, sharpening etc. than actually working wood.

Sigh.


Do they have a community college or HS Industrial Arts course down there?
There's someone who teaches it, if there is, and s/he has probably learned a
few things you can use. A drop-by at closing time might do you a world of
help. They're generally delighted to have time with an interested adult,
especially the HS types. Some even make house calls, and they also know
where the best deals on wood are.

Hanging out around the sawmill or hardware store might work, too.

.. I got
what I thought was a close bevel, but using the Veritas honing jig the
honed
line always seems skewed - I could never get it perpendicular to the blade
edges...

I had the same poblem so I scribed a line perpemducular to the edge of my
bench. I line the chisel or iron up with that line while holeing the front
edge of the honing jig against the front edge of the bench. Works pretty
well.

Finally I got close (after 3 hours),

You'll get that reduce to a much shorter time as you get some more practice
in.

but my jointed edges do not make an invisible seam when glued

Do you clamp the blards together so that you are plaing the edges at the
same time? That little trick did wonders for my joints.


. So, is it better to toss the old
tools, start with new planes and get new blades etc.,

I had similar doubts. I took a very close look at the irons that were in
the old planes I had aquired and saw a problem. The surface rust I had
removed caused very minor pitting on the back of the iron. It was very fine
and hard to see, but bad enough to degrade the edge I was working for. So
now I use the old irons for practice and purchased new Hock irons.
Sharpening and planing became the rewarding experiences they were meant to
be

Roger

Dukester wrote:
So the sloppy throat adjustment and messed up frog mechanisms are fixable?
Between Memphis, TN and Jackson, MS btw. Back to you.

Unless you've removed alot of metal trying to make it right, yes.
The problem is *probably* that you've got a slanted cutting edge
when compared to the side of the blade. Making that a 90 degree
angle is the critical part to start with. The next part is that
the frog and its bed match up and theat the frog is sitting
parallel to to the throat when you sight down it and out through
the hole from the back of the frog. Sorry, I don't know of a
better way to describe it, that's why I recommended finding
someone to help you. Old blades, in general, are better than the
new blades, certainly if you're buying Stanley or Buck or Great
Neck. If you want to spend some serious money, there are VERY
nice blades available that will start out sharp and square. A
Hock blade will run you about $35, but if you put it in the plane
and the adjuster is centerline, then you KNOW the old blade wasn't
ground square. Conversely, if the adjuster isn't centered, you
know the frog and its bed are the problem and you can work on them
until the adjuster IS centered. Sor of using a known blade as a
gauge. Roger is giving you good advice as is Silvan.

If you have a digital camera and a trysquare, mark your blade as
Roger suggested and send me a pic, less than 100K please, and I'll
try to help you through the problem. I take it that you fettled
the frog as described in Jeff Gorman's website:
http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingp...planeindex.htm You
might want to read all the way through his website, BTW, it's
really first rate.

Try not to do anything irreversibel and we'll see what we can do
about it. Fairfax, BTW is in VA.

Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 04:12:23 -0500, Silvan wrote:

Dukester wrote:

of the blades. I have Lee's book on sharpening, but can't find anything
on
how you grind the initial bevel? No way I'm trying the bench grinder

snip

So now I get the initial bevel the same way I do everything else. One
stroke at a time. It's extremely tedious, and takes forever, but there's
almost no opportunity to screw anything up at that speed.

I use a 60 grit belt sander belt, cut open & laying flat on a piece of
glass. Pretty fast, but not as fast as a grinder.

It's tricky. It helps to check with a square against both sides of the iron
or chisel before setting the knob. Make sure both sides are square, then
it pretty much has to be really square. Then tighten the absolute hell out
of the knob. Then be very, very, very, very careful not to skew the
iron/chisel as you work. Even with the knob as tight as humanly possible,
it's still possible to knock it out of alignment with a well-placed fart.

Second the square notion. Combination or machinist square works for me.

--
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html

Damn sorry about the spelling errors. Thought I had spell check on.
Corrected version below.
"Roger amd Missy Behnke" wrote in message
...

. I got
what I thought was a close bevel, but using the Veritas honing jig the
honed
line always seems skewed - I could never get it perpendicular to the
blade
edges...

I had the same poblem so I scribed a line perpendicular to the edge of my
bench. I line the chisel or iron up with that line while holding the front
edge of the honing jig against the front edge of the bench. Works pretty
well.

Finally I got close (after 3 hours),

You'll get that reduce to a much shorter time as you get some more
practice in.

but my jointed edges do not make an invisible seam when glued

Do you clamp the blards together so that you are plaing the edges at the
same time? That little trick did wonders for my joints.


. So, is it better to toss the old
tools, start with new planes and get new blades etc.,

I had similar doubts. I took a very close look at the irons that were in
the old planes I had aquired and saw a problem. The surface rust I had
removed caused very minor pitting on the back of the iron. It was very
fine and hard to see, but bad enough to degrade the edge I was working
for. So now I use the old irons for practice and purchased new Hock
irons. Sharpening and planing became the rewarding experiences they were
meant to be

Roger

Roger amd Missy Behnke wrote:
Do you clamp the blards together so that you are plaing the edges at the
same time? That little trick did wonders for my joints.


Let me second that suggestion. That trick is -- IMO -- the single
greatest thing I have learned in gluing up panels. It works really well,
giving beautiful glue line joints.

PK

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 04:12:23 -0500, the inscrutable Silvan
spake:

I tried doing it on my belt sander, but then I eventually realized I have a
bunch of screwed up plane irons in my inventory. Not screwed up beyond
salvaging, but screwed up enough that I'm back to doing it the old
fashioned way. The sander was not removing material evenly, even though I
did everything humanly possible to ensure that it should have every
opportunity to do so. Sigh.

So now I get the initial bevel the same way I do everything else. One
stroke at a time. It's extremely tedious, and takes forever, but there's
almost no opportunity to screw anything up at that speed.

Try a diamond plate. They work a hell of a lot faster than stones,
they never need flattening, and they work well DRY. (Less messy.)
If I wake up and my house is on fire, I'll grab my DMT plate before
leaving the building.


So the lesson you can take from this is that screw-ups like us can still
make stuff out of wood anyway. Screw it. It's not like we're getting
paid, right? We still make better stuff, mungled and bungled and
beflungled though it may be, than the vast majority of tool-less wimp wussy
boys who don't know which end of a hammer to use to open a paint can.

Cheer up.

g


--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 08:00:56 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Try a diamond plate. They work a hell of a lot faster than stones,
they never need flattening, and they work well DRY. (Less messy.)
If I wake up and my house is on fire, I'll grab my DMT plate before
leaving the building.

I second that, but I sprinkle a little water on when I use them.

Diamond plates also flatten fine water stones quite well.

If I was starting all over today, I'd buy DMT plates first, then add
an extra and ultra fine waterstone.

Barry

Larry Jaques wrote:

So now I get the initial bevel the same way I do everything else. One
stroke at a time. It's extremely tedious, and takes forever, but there's
almost no opportunity to screw anything up at that speed.

Try a diamond plate. They work a hell of a lot faster than stones,
they never need flattening, and they work well DRY. (Less messy.)
If I wake up and my house is on fire, I'll grab my DMT plate before
leaving the building.

That's actually a really good idea. I wonder if it wouldn't be hell on the
brass roller on the angle guide flummy though. I guess not necessarily
more than any other abrasive is.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Dave in Fairfax wrote:

about it. Fairfax, BTW is in VA.

Just barely.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Roger amd Missy Behnke wrote:

removed caused very minor pitting on the back of the iron. It was very
fine
and hard to see, but bad enough to degrade the edge I was working for. So

I can second that one. I've got some old irons that are fine, but some that
just aren't workable because of pitting on the back. It makes the edge
collapse far too easily, and it doesn't take hardly any pitting at all to
cause this.

now I use the old irons for practice and purchased new Hock irons.
Sharpening and planing became the rewarding experiences they were meant to
be

I'll also throw out that Lee Valley sells both Hock and Veritas irons for
the same price. They claim their irons are made of a better alloy than
Hock. So far, I have only bought one, and I bought Veritas. Next time
I'll buy a Hock, and see which I like better. I think they're both the
same thickness. Serious hunk of edge those things. Probably worth putting
on any plane you care about just to make it work better.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/