Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
strictly American unless, they out source to China.

The dollar is probably making it worse, but the raise in the cost of steel,
earlier this year, was what caused the initial problem. They published a
warning during early to mid summer that prices would raise at years end.
You have to give them credit for providing ample warning. My son is a heavy
construction manager and the rise in steel prices was driving their
estimators nuts during the first two quarters of the year.

As far hurting them - I doubt it. The others are going up too and the
margin will probably stay the same. I bought a Grizzly 1442 about 14 months
ago for $799. I saw it in the same store, during a show/sale, in October
and it was $915. The Jet rep blamed it on steel.

Steel, dollar probably doesn't matter they still have to make a profit and I
credit Griz with issuing the warning.

"Bob" writes:

Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
strictly American unless, they out source to China.

Yeah, except some of the Delta stuff I have seen lately has made it
a tough decision. I have lost all hope of classic American quality
being what it once was. It seems like there has been some kind of
shift in the last couple of decades - big corporations seem to
have short-term profit in mind rather than long-term customer loyalty.

A friend of mine asked me a while back "why is everything turning
to crap?"

A good question. I never thought I would see the day when I *had*
to buy a $250 mixer for my wife - just to keep from buying a $20
mixer every 6 months.

I think I am turning into a geezer...

~Pike~

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:40:47 -0600, "Greg O"
wrote:


If resale value is a concern, my bet is Jet, Delta, or Powermatic will
resell at a better price than Grizzly.

For the most part, I agree with you. However, notice that some
Grizzly tools sell for more than the comparable popular brand. The
following examples use Amazon's free shipping vs. Grizzly's published
shipping charges.

Exhibit A: Grizzly makes an 8" jointer that is comparable to Delta's
8" "Professional" jointer, with the Grizz selling for a bit less.

Exhibit B: The Grizzly 8" jointer that has parallelogram tables, and
is actually comparable to a DJ-20 sells for MORE than the X-5 DJ-20.

Once you get into Grizzly's "Industrial" line, you're in a completely
different realm, and I don't think resale value would suffer. Grizz's
"Woodshop News" ads usually show these tools. For 10" tablesaws,
smaller band saws, etc... I think Grizzly does not carry the same
resale percentage as the old line brands, regardless of what anyone
here thinks of quality.

Our local ad rag, which covers Southeastern NY, Long Island, CT, MA,
and RI, (East Westchester County to you, Charlie G) had an 8 month
old 3HP 1023 SL, with a _sliding table_ for $600 listed for months.
$700 Unisaws and JTAS-10s, without accessories, get sold in hours in
this paper. I sold my 6 year old Jet contractor's saw there for
almost $400! This newspaper and it's web counterpart cover an area of
12-15 million people, and an awful lot of wooddorkers.

This very well may be a local thing, as this is area was the home of
Woodworker's Warehouse. A few years back, WW had a house brand known
as Reliant. Reliant went belly up, and left some folks without spare
parts. I'm sure Grizzly is in a much better place than Reliant, but
to those outside the 'wreck, Grizz is still an "off" brand.

Check out the only Grizzly tool currently listed from:
http://www.bargainnews.com/BNO/CatResult.cfm?RequestTimeout=5000&make=Tools

"JOINTER,
6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
0-90 deg, good cond, $125. (203) 254-0164 . Fairfield "

$125? G

Here's the rest of the jointers:
" JOINTER,
4", Craftsman, table top model, $60. (860) 557-1638. East Hartford

JOINTER,
6'', Delta, w/steel stand, $200, Walker Turner, 6'' jointer, on cast
iron stand, $285, 8'' Craftsman planer/molder thickness planer w/power
feed & steel stand, $225. (203) 938-9502 . Redding

JOINTER,
6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
0-90 deg, good cond, $125. (203) 254-0164 . Fairfield

JOINTER,
4", Craftsman, with belt driven motor, table. (203) 931-1711 Lou.
West Haven

JOINTER/PLANER,
4'', $100. (860) 349-9207. Durham

WOOD JOINTER,
Rockwell, 6"x42", cast iron, w/cast iron stand, 220 volts, single
phase, excellent condition & blades, $400. (516) 795-7151 . Massapequa
"

Barry

I have lost all hope of classic American quality
being what it once was. It seems like there has been some kind of
shift in the last couple of decades - big corporations seem to
have short-term profit in mind rather than long-term customer loyalty.


I hear you. I started my search for a cabinet saw three years ago with fond
memory of the Unisaws I used in the 60's through the early 80's. When I
started seeing what it had become since then, I bought a Grizzly 1023s -
better value and better looking.

I think "American Quality" is becoming the stuff you buy here under American
brand names with offshore parts and/or assembly. The eastern manufacturers
are starting to kick our butts just like the Japaneese automakers did 30
years ago. Hopefully it will have the same effect and the local
manufacturers will wake up and start providing quality again.

RonB

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...

Check out the only Grizzly tool currently listed from:

http://www.bargainnews.com/BNO/CatRe...000&make=Tools


"JOINTER,
6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from
0-90 deg, good cond, $125. (203) 254-0164 . Fairfield "

$125? G



I wonder how long it takes to sell it! If I had seen it in my area for that
price I would have grabbed it without even argueing the price.
Before I bought my Jet I watched adds for a couple of years. Any reputable
brand asking price was almost new price. In fact I just saw a Jet 6"
advertised in the local rag for $500. It was only listed for a couple of
days so my bet is it is gone. I see Sears/Craftsman jointers like this one
http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1754 for sale for $200 often!
They are garbage as far as I am concerned.
One day I told my wife that if I died to watch what she sells my tools for!
I said to get a tool catalog and ask 80% of new price!
Greg

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:26:52 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:


Our local ad rag, which covers Southeastern NY, Long Island, CT, MA,
and RI, (East Westchester County to you, Charlie G) had an 8 month
old 3HP 1023 SL, with a _sliding table_ for $600 listed for months.
$700 Unisaws and JTAS-10s, without accessories, get sold in hours in
this paper. I sold my 6 year old Jet contractor's saw there for
almost $400! This newspaper and it's web counterpart cover an area of
12-15 million people, and an awful lot of wooddorkers.

The 1023 SL with sliding table is(was) in the range $1100,
the Unisaw in the range of $1800, and the JTAS-10s in
the range of $1400. Based on these numbers, it appears to
me that the best buy percentage-wise is the Unisaw and
the worst is the Grizzly.

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" calmly
ranted:

Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
strictly American unless, they out source to China.

The price of scrap steel has doubled recently. Watch for prices to go
up on other things, too. The Chinese are buying every piece of scrap
they can get their hands on, hence the scarcity, though it usually
ends up back here anyway.

--
Save the Endangered ROAD NARROWS! -|- www.diversify.com
Ban SUVs today! -|- Full Service Websites

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:00:05 -0600, WD wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:23:34 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

They sell us trash and be sell them back trash, that's fair? Or, trash in
trash out? :-)

Sounds like eBay writ large...

--
Joe Wells

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
strictly American unless, they out source to China.


Our dollar is losing value. Our government is spending a million
dollars every 7-1/2 minutes for some kind of a war. Eventually they
will print more money in attempt to get out of debt. Recently I
traded a hand saw made in China for one made in the USA of equal
dollar, but the USA saw is much better.

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:09:54 -0600, "Greg O"
wrote:


"Ba r r y" wrote in message
.. .

"JOINTER,
6", Grizzly, w/steel stand, cutting width 0-6", fence angles from

$125? G

I wonder how long it takes to sell it! If I had seen it in my area for that
price I would have grabbed it without even argueing the price.

You know what's really funny?

That jointer is located in the land of the $4-500,000 starter home
with $100,000 of cars in the driveway, Fairfield County, CT. So was
the $600 8 month old 1023SL w/ sliding table.

If you drew a "C" on a map from Bridgeport, CT, down I-95 to NYC,
arcing back out onto Long Island, the "C" could stand for ca$h. I
know cabinetmakers who routinely drive 2-3 hours one way, because
there are plenty of ultra high-end jobs inside that same "C".

Barry

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:24:58 -0500, GregP
wrote:


The 1023 SL with sliding table is(was) in the range $1100,
the Unisaw in the range of $1800, and the JTAS-10s in
the range of $1400. Based on these numbers, it appears to
me that the best buy percentage-wise is the Unisaw and
the worst is the Grizzly.


We actually have local dealers here in East Westchester County who
sell Uni's in the $1650 range. The smaller, local guys, will match
Tool Crib, as did Wooddorker's Warehouse. Only Woodcraft dosen't do
local to web price matching.

Barry

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 00:52:45 GMT, "patrick conroy"
wrote:

The explanation is steel prices and a few other reasons. Griz and others
have been saying they'll be raising prices. At least they were up front
about it and gave us plenty of time to buy at the lower costs.

Grizzly also seems to be getting more popular. Most businesses will
attempt to price to what the market will bear.

Barry

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:41:30 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message

We are a small company. When we open for business on Monday, material cost
aside, our cost of operation will be $225,000 more than last year to make
the same amount of product. .

The overriding question I keep asking myself the past few years:

Are things really getting worse, or is it just this old fart stage of life?

Despite the fact that here in Houston it cost me approximately 52% more in
material costs to "dry in" the same size house in 2004 than it did in 2002,
there is NO inflation, doncha know.

[snipped for space]

Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please kill
some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

"max" wrote in message

We are circling the drain ....

LOL ... I like the "poetic justice" nature of that imagery!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
"housing costs," not the cost of housing.

A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....

"igor" wrote in message
...

Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please
kill
some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:40:21 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
"housing costs," not the cost of housing.

A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....

George, as an economist, you are probably an excellent woodworker.

The thing that _really_ scares me is that you are among the tiny
minority of voters who even give a damn about economics. Kinda like
realizing that the people who devour supermarket tabloids are among
the minority of Americans who actually read.

--RC



"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

"loutent" wrote in message

If you want a real answer as to whether things are as bad
as you think they are, ask some 20 or 30 somethings who
are doing ok, just buying a house, starting a family etc.
Usually they are very optimistic about things.

Discounting the fact that "20 or 30 somethings " aren't old enough to have
any "perspective" on how much these things have changed, can you be certain
that the only reason they are "optimistic about things" is that they are
anticipating more SEX?

.... work(s)(ed) for me. ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 20:03:59 GMT, max wrote:

I agree.
While Amazon has some amazing deals, I feel it is only because they still
have some competition. Their free shipping and discount pricing is very
attractive, but what happens when all of the little guys are driven out of
business?

That might be an interesting story. I live near Coastal Tool and
Tools Plus, two independent web vendors. Both say they make a fair
profit at Amazon's price, both routinely beat BORG prices. Both
vendors existed before Al's 'net, both were savvy enough to get
online. Since the item is already there, shipping is included, but
they collect tax. Legally, we in CT are required to pay use tax on
web and out of state purchases, so technically the tax is a wash.

We've actually had Western Tool move into the state to fill some of
Woodworker's Warehouse voids. Woodworker's Warehouse killed
themselves. G

I used to subscribe to Fine Woodworking and a couple of the other WW mags.
There used to be full page ads for tools from at least a dozen sellers. I
picked up a copy recently and there were no such ads.

Woodshop News is full of tool vendor ads in CT, MA, and a large one in
"Tax Free NH". WSN may do regional issues as far as ads go, I'm not
sure.

Amazon either killed or bought the competition.
We are circling the drain as a country that used to lead the world in
competition, quality and innovation.

I agree with most of what you said, but Amazon is simply one American
vendor competing with the rest. Mail order is as old as the mail.

Crap, with the exception of those screwy 4 hour sales, Ballew Tool,
Coastal, Tools Plus, Lee Valley, Highland Hardware, Museum of
Woodworking, BC Saw, etc... seem to me to be better places to buy
anyway.

By "neighbor", I meant American, Canadian, or other free living
citizen, that lives in a non-market dumping, free country. For
example, bicycle parts plants. The atmosphere there is similar to Lie
Nielsen. People who take pride in what they do, and make a product
that is top quality. I don't think a Chinese factory is quite the
same.

Although, I do avoid BORGs and chain restaurants as well as I can.
G

Barry

"George" george@least wrote in message
Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
"housing costs," not the cost of housing.

A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....

"igor" wrote in message
...

Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please
kill
some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

You sound just like a jackass who slobbers in the public trough for his
daily bread, or is paid by a company or entity that does.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:40:21 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:


A dollar spent by government benefits everyone.

Even the dollars spent by our ex-Governor who took kickbacks to vastly
overpay for construction projects?

Barry

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:44:47 -0600, Joe Wells wrote:

They sell us trash and be sell them back trash, that's fair? Or, trash in
trash out? :-)

Sounds like eBay writ large...

Wanna see more trash? This may be the beginning of the end of Detroit.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins.../A01-47455.htm

Hi Swingman,

Discounting the fact that "20 or 30 somethings " aren't old enough to have
any "perspective" on how much these things have changed, can you be certain
that the only reason they are "optimistic about things" is that they are
anticipating more SEX?

This is exactly the (my) point.

A that age, we didn't need no stinkin' perspective either.

Now (as old farts) we've got perspective up the wazoo...

;-)

Lou

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:

[snip of wisdom]

Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are doing
better than the one trying to build bookcases.

No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
all.

Amen!

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

When we opened our shop in SF we made $20 the first month. The second month
we made $120 thanks to our landlord. The second year we pulled in over
$150K. No advertising, no down time, 4 month backlog. You get connected with
the group (economic level?) you are aiming for. We wanted high end stuff and
that is all we did. Our names were passed around and we had more work than
we could handle.
max

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:

[snip of wisdom]

Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are
doing
better than the one trying to build bookcases.

No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
all.

Amen!

- Doug

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 20:54:57 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:04:43 -0600, Phil wrote:

[snip of wisdom]

Back to woodworking, those who do very high end custom stuff I suspect are doing
better than the one trying to build bookcases.

No flames please, I'm not trying to start an argument, just my personal
perspective. If I'm right or wrong isn't important to me, just my 2 cents is
all.

Amen!

- Doug

By and large I think you're right.

One of the great lies we tell our kids is that they can train for a
job and expect to that job until they retire. With very few exceptions
that isn't true any more. The average worker will have 2 or 3 or more
'careers' over the course of their working life.

Sometimes the jobs change names and sometimes they don't, but you end
up doing something very different over time.

The smart way to handle this, I think, is to decide what you're truly
excellent at -- not just what you're skilled at, but what truly turns
you on. That gives you a basic skill set and you have to keep looking
for ways to apply that skill set and that level of excellence. I
guarantee you it will keep you interested and it's more than likely to
keep you fully employed.

I was thinking about this tonight as I was making out invoices for
customers. Back in mumblety-mupfh I graduated with a degree in
journalism and a minor in advertising. I haven't worked for a
newspaper or wire service in 25 years and I never worked in
advertising. Today most of my customers are web sites. But I'm still
working and, by and large, I'm still enjoying it.

And oh yeah -- there are still a lot of gainfully employed blacksmiths
out there.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:31:48 -0600, WD wrote:


Wanna see more trash? This may be the beginning of the end of Detroit.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins.../A01-47455.htm


The beginning of the end of Detroit came about 20
years ago.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:21:08 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:


We actually have local dealers here in East Westchester County who
sell Uni's in the $1650 range. The smaller, local guys, will match
Tool Crib, as did Wooddorker's Warehouse. Only Woodcraft dosen't do
local to web price matching.


I'll have to take a ride over the next time I "go home"
(Dobbs Ferry). I looked up woodworking places in
the phone book last timeI was there, but didn't have
the time to visit any of them.

But back to the subject, that still makes the Unisaw the
only one of the 3 selling for less than half of list price.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:07:56 -0500, GregP
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:21:08 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:


We actually have local dealers here in East Westchester County who
sell Uni's in the $1650 range. The smaller, local guys, will match
Tool Crib, as did Wooddorker's Warehouse. Only Woodcraft dosen't do
local to web price matching.

But back to the subject, that still makes the Unisaw the
only one of the 3 selling for less than half of list price.

These are listings, not actual sale prices. The Unisaws sell in
hours, maybe the owners should ask more. The 1023 was listed for
months, I have no idea what the eventual selling price was.

My $400 Jet CS went in about an hour after listing it in the same web
/ paper ads. More calls were continually coming in as I helped the
guy load it up.

My original observation is that people would quickly line up to pay
$400 for a 6 year old Jet CS with stamped wings, yet nobody was
touching an 8 month old 1023SL, with sliding table, for $600.

If I didn't have a cabinet saw, I would have certainly investigated
the $600 Grizzly.

Barry

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:40:21 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:


A dollar spent by government benefits everyone.

Even the dollars spent by our ex-Governor who took kickbacks to vastly
overpay for construction projects?


You left off the part that applies to the governor - he's one of the
undeserving rich, or hoped to be. The dollars spent for "prevailing wage"
and "affirmative action" preferences were a definite societal plus.
Besides, as you know, it's employment, regardless of output, that counts.
It's a liberal Shibboleth - don't you remember how the WPA "pulled the
country out of the depression?"

Of course then there's the AlGore modification,where government money should
go to "the right people...."

And to the moronic bookend boys who replied so viciously - GOTCHA!

"Phil" wrote in message

If you watch tv, or live in the city, you know that many of the "Orange
County
Choppers" or "West Coast Custom's" are building very expensive custom one
of a
kind machines, and business is good.

Yabbut, how long will that last? While there is undoubtably "riches in
niches", your example is of a very limited market, further supported by the
entertainment industry of which they have no control, and is certainly not a
market that you can build a national economy upon.

Throwing a bit of history into the mix, in feudal times a business model
like that only lasted until favour was lost with the ruling class, or until
the ruling class got bored and went on to some other form of entertainment..

... sound vaguely familiar?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:19:14 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:


Of course then there's the AlGore modification,where government money should
go to "the right people...."


... and then there's the GB II modification, where the prez
spends huge amounts of money but does not have the
morals or courage to collect enough taxes to pay for it
(come to think of it, that Ronnie Reagan did the same
thing).

No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. JFK, Reagan, or GW
doesn't think so either. As the economy grows, so will the revenue taken in
by the government.


"GregP" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:19:14 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:


Of course then there's the AlGore modification,where government money
should
go to "the right people...."


... and then there's the GB II modification, where the prez
spends huge amounts of money but does not have the
morals or courage to collect enough taxes to pay for it
(come to think of it, that Ronnie Reagan did the same
thing).

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 11:37:40 GMT, Ba r r y
wrote:


These are listings, not actual sale prices. The Unisaws sell in
hours, maybe the owners should ask more.

It sounds like it, especially in the NYC area.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:55:34 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:


"George" george@least wrote in message
Not that much substance to rant ratio. Remember, inflation concerns
"housing costs," not the cost of housing.

A dollar spent by government benefits everyone. A dollar saved by an
individual, however just creates another undeserving rich b*st*rd....

"igor" wrote in message
...

Hey, this rant of yours had some substance, including some actual facts.
Obviously you lack an understanding of the nature of NG rants. Please
kill
some of your brain cells, or take some being-hit-in-the-head lessons,
before reposting. Thank you, that is all. -- Igor

You sound just like a jackass who slobbers in the public trough for his
daily bread, or is paid by a company or entity that does.

I'm thinking George's post was made with significant tongue-in-cheek
sarcasm. At least based upon some of his past postings.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Now we'll just use some glue to hold things in place until the brads dry

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:29:45 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

Is it because of the dollar being devalued? When the dollar goes up again
will they lower their prices? I think they are shooting their self in the
foot. Their previous prices is what made them so popular. If their prices
are the same or higher than Delta's, etc., I myself would prefer to buy
strictly American unless, they out source to China.

Because *ALL* prices are going up across the board. We've been
talking about this for months now, woodworking tools are going up in
price because they've been artificially low for years now. It won't
be just Grizzly, it'll be every brand taking a 10-20% increase over
the next couple months.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:20:32 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. JFK, Reagan, or GW
doesn't think so either. As the economy grows, so will the revenue taken in
by the government.

Reagan lowered taxes for high-income people but he raised
taxes on everyone else a number of times throughout his tenure.
In spite of that, he and the Dem-controlled congress still managed
to produce huge deficits (they seemed huge then, but GB II's
make them seem small by comparison).

Ok, Reagan had huge deficits. Do you think it only cost a dollar and ninety
five cents to win the Cold War? Wasn't the deficit worth it? Years ago my
wife and I took a tour with a group to Russia. I asked the tour guide that
all we ever saw about Russia on TV was their military might. How come we
don't see it any more? The tour guides response to me was, "your President
Reagan broke us". Now Greg tell me if the deficit was worth it.
You are obviously a liberal democrat and nothing Bush or the Republicans do,
will you EVER agree with. I used to be a democrat when they were for the
working man. Like in the days of Truman, Roosevelt, and JFK. Now look at
who the leaders of my old party are.


"GregP" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:20:32 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. JFK, Reagan, or GW
doesn't think so either. As the economy grows, so will the revenue taken
in
by the government.

Reagan lowered taxes for high-income people but he raised
taxes on everyone else a number of times throughout his tenure.
In spite of that, he and the Dem-controlled congress still managed
to produce huge deficits (they seemed huge then, but GB II's
make them seem small by comparison).

I bought a Grizzly 1442 about 14 months ago for $799.


Pardon-Should have said Jet 1442

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:31:48 -0600, WD wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:44:47 -0600, Joe Wells wrote:

They sell us trash and be sell them back trash, that's fair? Or, trash in
trash out? :-)

Sounds like eBay writ large...

Wanna see more trash? This may be the beginning of the end of Detroit.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins.../A01-47455.htm

Doubt it. People may buy junk tools and toasters, but cars that fall
apart don't last long in the market. You will notice a steady churn in
the cheap models arena as people keep looking for a cheap *good* car.
One doesn't exist because it costs too much to make a car good, but
people keep trying. Only if they bring quality will they stand a real
chance in the US auto market, and then they will have to be able to
compete on price against the other low-cost imports.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com