Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

Check out all the router table action with no push blocks or sticks,
hands inches from the bit.

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?


Bruce Johnson's alma mater?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

I particularly like the overhead router on/off switch hanging loose by some
wirenuts

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?


Bruce Johnson's alma mater?

Is he still on TV or did OSHA require the DIY channel to remove him? ;~)

wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

Check out all the router table action with no push blocks or sticks,
hands inches from the bit.


You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the best ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.
--

-Mike-

"Knothead" wrote in message
...
I particularly like the overhead router on/off switch hanging loose by
some
wirenuts



Ouch - I didn't see that one the first time around.
--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
ink.net...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the best
ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.

I too don't see any glaring safety hazards. Some of the kids in the
background(s) didn't have their safety glasses on...but I'm sure they've
been told umteen times. Table saw guards and spliters in place. No long
sleeves or long hair evident. I noticed some have hearing aides but one
might wonder why they don't wear the muffs to preserve what little hearing
they might still have.

Larry(...not the original poster)

I guess I am missing the reason for alarm. Yeah, I see a couple of pics
that make me a little nervous but snapshots don't always catch the action.
If the router example is the young lady in Orange, I can't imagine
controlling that block she is routing with a push stick - she has her hands
in a defensive position and unengaged fingers raised. The young fellow
using the shaper does bother me but I don't know if the right hand crossed
over the knife path or he just put it there.

It is easy to pick a shop class apart from a few pics. If you look at all
of them there appear to be some pretty well-trained hands and eyes among
that group.

BTW - Did anyone notice the PROJECTS these kids were building? Pretty
impressive.

Shaper was the only one that really bothered me, too. I'm a stick and
featherboard guy.

Overarm router should have a pin underneath to follow the pattern, limiting
the danger.

I really like the middleschoolers' stuff. They've got a lot of enthusiasm
at that age, and they really like a quick project. Always a challenge to
get some sort of result quickly. I liked box-jointed boxes for the first
one. Teaches square and same size pieces, about a third of any woodworking
project.

"RonB" wrote in message
news:xGWxd.19418$F25.18692@okepread07...
I guess I am missing the reason for alarm. Yeah, I see a couple of pics
that make me a little nervous but snapshots don't always catch the action.
If the router example is the young lady in Orange, I can't imagine
controlling that block she is routing with a push stick - she has her
hands
in a defensive position and unengaged fingers raised. The young fellow
using the shaper does bother me but I don't know if the right hand crossed
over the knife path or he just put it there.

It is easy to pick a shop class apart from a few pics. If you look at all
of them there appear to be some pretty well-trained hands and eyes among
that group.

"Leon" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?


Bruce Johnson's alma mater?

Is he still on TV or did OSHA require the DIY channel to remove him? ;~)

Well, he does still have all his fingers, but I wonder if the bookies in the
UK are taking bets yet?

He scares SWMBO and she doesn't know a router from a table saw. I don't know
why I continue to record his show as I just FF over the first few minutes
and erase it almost immediately.

Once, I did see him build a nice little oak bookshelf, with very nice lines,
that was put together correctly, but most of his stuff is cheesy DIY to the
max, IMO.

But he must be doing something more or less pleasing to the powers that be
.... he's on TV and we're not (although I am convinced there is a real
woodworker hiding somewhere off camera). ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"RonB" wrote in message
I guess I am missing the reason for alarm. Yeah, I see a couple of pics
that make me a little nervous but snapshots don't always catch the action.

"Dylan" on the shaper, and "Tabatha" routing that small piece, were the only
ones that really made me want to say "be careful there". But the pictures
certainly may not give a proper perspective.

Pretty impressive work, though.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Snip


But he must be doing something more or less pleasing to the powers that be
... he's on TV and we're not (although I am convinced there is a real
woodworker hiding somewhere off camera). ;)

Yeah he has to know something... I guess he rushes through the projects to
show more of what can be done.

I was thinking I might swing by and see you some time next week,
Wednesdayish. Will be be around?




--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Leon" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message

But he must be doing something more or less pleasing to the powers that
be
... he's on TV and we're not (although I am convinced there is a real
woodworker hiding somewhere off camera). ;)

Yeah he has to know something... I guess he rushes through the projects
to
show more of what can be done.

I was thinking I might swing by and see you some time next week,
Wednesdayish. Will be be around?

I'll make a point of it. Give me a holler e-mail.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:49:47 -0600, "RonB" wrote:

BTW - Did anyone notice the PROJECTS these kids were building? Pretty
impressive.

I'm impressed that they even have a SHOP, or a class for it..
They haven't had shop classes in Calif. forbears, that I know of..

Kids hear you talking about high school shop class and think you're
talking about training mall rats..

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:27:40 GMT, "Lawrence L'Hote"
wrote:


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
link.net...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the best
ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.

I too don't see any glaring safety hazards. Some of the kids in the
background(s) didn't have their safety glasses on...but I'm sure they've
been told umteen times. Table saw guards and spliters in place. No long
sleeves or long hair evident. I noticed some have hearing aides but one
might wonder why they don't wear the muffs to preserve what little hearing
they might still have.


I suspect the power tools have a lower noise level than the
cars-turned-into-boom-boxes in which they drive around. :-(

Larry(...not the original poster)

In article . com,
says...

Your title reminded me of the old railroad ditty:

Uphill slow, downhill fast,
Tonnage first, safety last.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

"Chetandra sanding her yo-yo" is one caption which might have been
reconsidered.

FoggyTown
"Cut to shape . . . pound to fit."

On 21 Dec 2004 11:01:10 -0800, "foggytown" wrote:

"Chetandra sanding her yo-yo" is one caption which might have been
reconsidered.

"Ryan using a vibrator..."

I have to agree with others here, other than the photographer running
around doing flash photography while the kids are in the middle of
operations I don't see anything to get in a twist about. I hope they
warned them a flash was coming before they fired up the machine.


-Leuf

Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

Check out all the router table action with no push blocks or
sticks,
hands inches from the bit.


You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were
doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the
best ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what
they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.

You guys serious? I'd shake your hand if you had any fingers left.
You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG
??

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:15:12 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Well, he does still have all his fingers,

This one doesn't appear to
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Trellis/Mortising%20-trellis(Ryan&Tars).JPG

Nasty kickback risk on this one, even with that riving knife.
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...SAWING%202.jpg

The inverted sander isn't good practice
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/Pix%20frames%20ll%20(Ryan).jpg
although the worst hazard is clearly the terrible electrical fault -
look at what it's done to his hair !

This should have a push board to feed the board through - can't see if
there is one.
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/ww%205th%20hour%20class/R.Meridith(Bread%20board-sanding).JPG

I'd like to see more earmuffs too.

--
Smert' spamionam

Tue, Dec 21, 2004, 5:11am (EST-3) says:
Happened upon this school website snip

I suspect none of the machines were turned on when the pictures
were taken.



JOAT
Sanity is vastly over-rated.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:15:12 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Well, he does still have all his fingers,

This one doesn't appear to

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...sing%20-trelli
s(Ryan&Tars).JPG

Or... is his finger bent - like the second finger is?


Nasty kickback risk on this one, even with that riving knife.

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...SAWING%202.jpg

Oh please. You're stretching on this one Andy. Is there any cut on a table
saw that the kickback police don't nail as a kickback hazard? That is a
perfectly reasonable cut to make on a table saw.


The inverted sander isn't good practice

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...%20frames/Pix%
20frames%20ll%20(Ryan).jpg

Now that one is... shall we say... novel. Not a horrible safety risk since
it's just a vibrating sander, but I can't imagine how wobbly that must have
been.


This should have a push board to feed the board through - can't see if
there is one.

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/ww%205th%20hour%20class/R.Meridith(Bread%20board-sanding).JPG

I'd really be concerned if there was a push stick in the picture. Note that
the board is not yet past the edge of the bed. You'd suggest a push stick
on a board that is not fully secured on the bed? It's time to quit looking
for boogy men in everything on this site. His hands aren't near the
business end of the machine and his hands offer far better control than a
push stick. So - what is the safety advantage of a push stick?


--

-Mike-

wrote in message
ups.com...

Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

Check out all the router table action with no push blocks or
sticks,
hands inches from the bit.


You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were
doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the
best ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what
they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.

You guys serious? I'd shake your hand if you had any fingers left.
You don't think this is a problem?


http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg


http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG
??


No, and no. I prefer the safety and control of my hands on a piece of wood
than the instability of a push stick used for the wrong task. Yes, I have
all of my fingers and I've been woodworking for over 35 years. Maybe you
have also, and I don't suggest you abandon procedures that make you
comfortable, but the level of pure asinine safety talk here is absurd. Most
of it is nothing more than people repeating things they've heard or read and
it becomes mantra, rather than being based on anything substantial. There
are too many people here who do nothing more than look for what they can
point out as a safety issue, just for the sake of passing wind.

As to the photos, neither you nor I know what number 44 is shaping. He has
a solid hold on his stock and that mitigates more potential problems than
anything you're going to do with a push stick. If he's just doing edge work
on that shaper his hands are perfectly safe where they are. What are you
seeing that is such a concern?

The young lady, likewise has a good hold on her stock and her hands are well
clear of the cutter. She has control. What are you seeing wrong with her
picture?
--

-Mike-

On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:


Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

Check out all the router table action with no push blocks or
sticks,
hands inches from the bit.


You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were
doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the
best ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what
they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.

You guys serious? I'd shake your hand if you had any fingers left.
You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

He's standing clear of any kickback, from the look of the workpiece, it
appears the operation is a simple roundover, the stock is sufficiently
large that his hand is not near the roundover bit as it moves the stock,
what is your concern?



http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG
??

No hearing protection -- not a good idea.
Router bit in fence -- seems OK. It's a short piece that she is working,
use of a push stick would appear to me to be more dangerous than the
operation as she is performing it. If something grabs, she is out the the
way of any kickback, there is noone behind her. Her fingers are again well
clear of the bit, her eyes and attention appear to be firmly on the work.
I would probably have clamped a guard board over the exposed portion of the
bit at board height. A push block, particularly with an edged surface
would have the potential for tipping the workpiece.

"J T" wrote in message
...
Tue, Dec 21, 2004, 5:11am (EST-3) says:
Happened upon this school website snip

I suspect none of the machines were turned on when the pictures
were taken.


Some were - you can see the wood chips flying.
--

-Mike-

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:13 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Oh please. You're stretching on this one Andy. Is there any cut on a table
saw that the kickback police don't nail as a kickback hazard? That is a
perfectly reasonable cut to make on a table saw.

It's a borderline cut. You'd do it, I'd probably do it. It's also a
poor photo angle and the real situation might have been much better or
much worse than we know.

These are kids though. _Not_ the best and most skilled workers. Don't
make it any harder for them.

There's also the far more important point that this isn't a workshop,
it's an instructional workshop. You don't just do what's needed, you
do what you _ought_ to do, for any forseeable variation on that
operation. You're not trying to make stuff here, you're primarily
trying to teach good techniques andd good habits for the future. I
often use my saw (cabinet or bandsaw) without earmuffs, because
they're both quiet machines. But if there are kids around I _always_
wear them, because as a general rule "cabinet saws are noisy and you
wear earmuffs".

A workshop like this has crosscut sleds to hand, and you use them
whenever you _can_, not whenever you _must_.


I'd really be concerned if there was a push stick in the picture.

So would I. But I said push _board_, not push stick. A piece of scrap
board of appropriate width and thinner than the workpiece. For a
single drum sander you really do need one, and even for a machine like
a thickness planer it's a good idea to have one handy, in case the
powered feed roller stalls or slips. These things do happen from time
to time, and prior preparation removes the slightest incentive to
stick your fingers somewhere unholy.

--
Smert' spamionam

On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:

You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG

I hadn't noticed those two yet - nasty.

The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a
commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.

In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most
common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit
(according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the
pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.


The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do
it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and
how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.

I personally don't see a problem in any of these pics. At least the
operator appears to be concentrating on the task at hand. In fact, the only
time i ever use a push stick is for ripping narrow pieces with a TS. I
would rather guide things with my hands if possible, but i run WW machinery
for a living, and am comfortable with that. I DO pay careful attention to
where my fingers are in relation to the danger areas.BTW, I still have all
my fingers attached and intact! --dave


wrote in message
ups.com...

Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Happened upon this school website

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oodworking.htm

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

Check out all the router table action with no push blocks or
sticks,
hands inches from the bit.


You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were
doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the
best ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what
they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.

You guys serious? I'd shake your hand if you had any fingers left.
You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG
??

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:42:01 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:

You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG

I hadn't noticed those two yet - nasty.

The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a
commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.

In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most
common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit
(according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the
pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.


A blind emerging cut 1/4" high with a 3 1/2" high workpiece is considered
hazardous? Just how would one make such a roundover in the UK? Surely a
hand-held router would be considered even more dangerous (free-spinning
unguarded bit along with chance for router kickback if the person forgets
the proper feed direction -- see your comment below regarding kids).


The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do
it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and
how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.

I think you are underestimating young teens. I know that when my dad
taught me how to use power tools, the single most important comment he made
was, "that blade doesn't know the difference between your finger and a
piece of wood -- know where it is at all times. Seeing how that girl's
concentration as she is making the cut, it appears she has been similarly
admonished.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:15:12 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Well, he does still have all his fingers,

This one doesn't appear to
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Trellis/Mortising%20-trellis(Ryan&Tars).JPG


I guess he had that finger reattached for this picture
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...ner%20Tars.jpg

Frank

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:13 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


These are kids though. _Not_ the best and most skilled workers. Don't
make it any harder for them.

Geeze Andy - did you see the work they produced? These guys aren't the
untrained, unskilled, off the street kids. Their work practices make it
clear that they know what they're doing.


There's also the far more important point that this isn't a workshop,
it's an instructional workshop. You don't just do what's needed, you
do what you _ought_ to do, for any forseeable variation on that
operation.

You can take this to the point of looking for problems that don't exist.
Not everything done in the name of safety is really safer. A good example
is using a push stick as has been suggested by more than one poster. The
operations in question were in fact being performed much safer by hand.


You're not trying to make stuff here, you're primarily
trying to teach good techniques andd good habits for the future.

I think you need to look at the site completely Andy. They're making
things. Nice things. This is not first semister wood shop.


A workshop like this has crosscut sleds to hand, and you use them
whenever you _can_, not whenever you _must_.

Wrong. Badly wrong. You use tools, adjuncts, and procedures when they are
appropriate, not just for the sake of proving something. This is the
perfect example of taking it too far.



I'd really be concerned if there was a push stick in the picture.

So would I. But I said push _board_, not push stick. A piece of scrap
board of appropriate width and thinner than the workpiece. For a
single drum sander you really do need one, and even for a machine like
a thickness planer it's a good idea to have one handy, in case the
powered feed roller stalls or slips. These things do happen from time
to time, and prior preparation removes the slightest incentive to
stick your fingers somewhere unholy.

Again Andy - take a look at the picture. The stock is not even fully on the
bed yet. A push block or any other device that lessens the control that the
operator's hands exert over the work piece would be flat out wrong.
Dangerous. It isn't about contriving safety rules, it's about smart, common
sense, practical procedures. Procedures that will ensure against accidents,
not invite them.

--

-Mike-

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:

You don't think this is a problem?


http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oors%20plain%2
0Dylan.jpg


http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...%20frames/plaq
ue%20(Tabitha).JPG

I hadn't noticed those two yet - nasty.

The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a
commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.

In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most
common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit
(according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the
pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.

Through 3" of wood? I think not.



The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do
it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and
how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.


I have to respectfully disagree Andy. My own kids are proof of that and
I've had a few other kids that were either neighborhood kids or the kids of
friends, who over the years I've taught a bit of wood working to, or have
for one reason or another, have done wood working in my garage. I assure
you - not all and even *most* kids that are interested in this stuff are not
the absent minded air heads you typically find in the shopping malls.
There's a world of bright, attentive kids out there. If you haven't crossed
paths with them, then that's truly a shame, because it does your heart good
to work with them. They can indeed reliably function in a wood working
shop.

I've read more stuff here that concerns me than what I've seen and
experienced with the attentiveness and capability of the kids I've worked
with.
--

-Mike-

As to the photos, neither you nor I know what number 44 is shaping.
He has
a solid hold on his stock and that mitigates more potential problems
than
anything you're going to do with a push stick. If he's just doing
edge work
on that shaper his hands are perfectly safe where they are. What are
you
seeing that is such a concern?

The young lady, likewise has a good hold on her stock and her hands
are well
clear of the cutter. She has control. What are you seeing wrong
with her
picture?

The problem isn't when the person has control of their stock, it's what
happens to their body if they lose control of their stock. Kickback
has happened to all of us at one time or another, and the girl trying
to control that short piece is asking for an accident.

A push block like ones used in a jointer would make that operation much
more safe, IMO.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:15:26 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

A blind emerging cut 1/4" high with a 3 1/2" high workpiece is considered
hazardous?

I can't see how big the workpiece is from that picture. Maybe it's not
really that hazardous.

It's certainly _considered_ hazardous - the HSE are having a real
thing about emerging cuts. Looking at the actual stats for hand
injuries, they seem to have a point. We might all just be careless
drunks working with our eyes shut, but that's when the injuries are
happening.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis18.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm

Just how would one make such a roundover in the UK?

Same way as in the picture - but not feeding it with your fingers.

For a commercial workshop there's a strong pressure to fit tunnel
guards for this find of work

To be honest, you're going to find no (UK) school workshops and very
few colleges with spindle moulders.


Surely a
hand-held router would be considered even more dangerous

Depends on circumstances. There's a good working principle in PUWER
which says that works should be done on the least-risk machine - which
means the fixed vertical spindle, if you have one. However spindle
moulders have a bad reputation in the UK and many people avoid having
one altogether - leaving them with the free router.


I think you are underestimating young teens.

I'm probably underestimating that one, but deliberately so. You have
to plan around the worst behaved and least attentive of the group.
This is also the one most likely to whine "But _Siirr_, you let Sammy
Maloof use the bandsaw!"

If you can filter the group, perhaps a woodworking club, then you can
achieve a lot more. Your best pupils are still the same, but you don't
have to account for the less able or committed to the same extent.
--
Smert' spamionam

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:36:53 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Geeze Andy - did you see the work they produced?

Wasn't even looking - that's not the point.

These guys aren't the
untrained, unskilled, off the street kids.

They're inexperienced. They're schoolkids - they can't be anything
_but_ (they just haven't had the time).

One of the smartest comments I ever heard at school was from my
metalwork teacher. He pointed out that metalwork as a school subject
was basically pointless. Very few of us would ever handle a hacksaw
again. Of the few that went on to engineering apprentices, or
whatever, they'd be working 40 hour weeks. The couple of hours a week
we'd spent in the workshop during all our years at school would be
outweighed in no time at all. He was right.



You're not trying to make stuff here, you're primarily
trying to teach good techniques andd good habits for the future.

I think you need to look at the site completely Andy. They're making
things. Nice things. This is not first semister wood shop.

They are indeed making nice things. That's rewarding, and good on them
for doing it -- but it's still _incidental_ to a vocational course,
because that has to focus on what you learn to make afterwards. Of
course the best way to encourage this can be through the reward of
present achievements, but you still have to

To be honest, a non-vocational course doesn't need to teach you much
beyond the fact it's _possible_ to make stuff. You can pick the rest
up later. Sadly the current UK system ignores this completely and
we're spawning a generation of mall-rats fit for nothing other than
entirely passive consumption. Things are made in factories full of
robots and you get them by going to a shop -- the idea that you could
_make_ something yourself just doesn't occur any more 8-(


A workshop like this has crosscut sleds to hand, and you use them
whenever you _can_, not whenever you _must_.

Wrong. Badly wrong. You use tools, adjuncts, and procedures when they are
appropriate, not just for the sake of proving something. This is the
perfect example of taking it too far.

So what's wrong with using a sled ?

This is an entirely appropriate cut to do on a sled. Doing it against
the fence like this is borderline for being in the proportions where
it becomes hazardous (neither of us can really tell from that
picture).

A push block or any other device that lessens the control that the
operator's hands exert over the work piece would be flat out wrong.

Of course - but a block doesn't (a stick would).

I'm assuming that the "bed" here is actually a powered feed belt. If
it isn't, or if that belt slips, then you have the workpiece coming
back towards you. You need to control that, and you can't control it
with your fingers for the last part of the pass (at least not without
getting your fingers too close to the drum).

--
Smert' spamionam

wrote:

As to the photos, neither you nor I know what number 44 is shaping.
He has
a solid hold on his stock and that mitigates more potential problems
than
anything you're going to do with a push stick. If he's just doing
edge work
on that shaper his hands are perfectly safe where they are. What are
you
seeing that is such a concern?

The young lady, likewise has a good hold on her stock and her hands
are well
clear of the cutter. She has control. What are you seeing wrong
with her
picture?

The problem isn't when the person has control of their stock, it's what
happens to their body if they lose control of their stock. Kickback
has happened to all of us at one time or another, and the girl trying
to control that short piece is asking for an accident.

A push block like ones used in a jointer would make that operation much
more safe, IMO.

Suppose that the block the girl is routing does get kicked back. What do
you believe is going to happen to her that a push block would prevent?

However I think you grossly overestimate the potential for kickback from a
router table.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On 21 Dec 2004 18:28:34 -0800, "
wrote:

As to the photos, neither you nor I know what number 44 is shaping.
He has
a solid hold on his stock and that mitigates more potential problems
than
anything you're going to do with a push stick. If he's just doing
edge work
on that shaper his hands are perfectly safe where they are. What are
you
seeing that is such a concern?

The young lady, likewise has a good hold on her stock and her hands
are well
clear of the cutter. She has control. What are you seeing wrong
with her
picture?

The problem isn't when the person has control of their stock, it's what
happens to their body if they lose control of their stock. Kickback
has happened to all of us at one time or another, and the girl trying
to control that short piece is asking for an accident.

A push block like ones used in a jointer would make that operation much
more safe, IMO.
I don't know if she's safe or not, but I'm a devout coward...
I use a slide jig that holds the work against the fence and makes it
really, really hard to get my fingers in the way..

wrote:

Can YOU pick out all the safety hazards in these photos?

The only thing that made me wince was seeing all those kids running banshees
(routahs) with no hearing protection.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:36:53 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Geeze Andy - did you see the work they produced?

Wasn't even looking - that's not the point.

That statement ignores the degree of accomplishment these kids have
achieved. It presumes they are absolute beginners. If they were, you would
have a more valid point, to a degree, but since they clearly are not, your
point loses all of its validity.


These guys aren't the
untrained, unskilled, off the street kids.

They're inexperienced. They're schoolkids - they can't be anything
_but_ (they just haven't had the time).

You don't need years of time under your belt to have developed the necessary
understandings and appreciations of certain things. I think I'm hearing
some eliteist stuff coming through. I find that hard to believe based on a
lot of other postings I've read from you, but I can't figure out what else
it would be.


One of the smartest comments I ever heard at school was from my
metalwork teacher. He pointed out that metalwork as a school subject
was basically pointless. Very few of us would ever handle a hacksaw
again. Of the few that went on to engineering apprentices, or
whatever, they'd be working 40 hour weeks. The couple of hours a week
we'd spent in the workshop during all our years at school would be
outweighed in no time at all. He was right.

I'd agree with that but what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?
Most of us do a number of things on a very part time or occassional basis.
That does not prevent us from doing them with all of the appropriate safety.
Nor does it imply that we need to go overboard trying to implement every
conceivable measure that might be considered a safety consideration in spite
of perfectly acceptable procedures.




You're not trying to make stuff here, you're primarily
trying to teach good techniques andd good habits for the future.

I think you need to look at the site completely Andy. They're making
things. Nice things. This is not first semister wood shop.

They are indeed making nice things. That's rewarding, and good on them
for doing it -- but it's still _incidental_ to a vocational course,
because that has to focus on what you learn to make afterwards. Of
course the best way to encourage this can be through the reward of
present achievements, but you still have to

Our discussion was not about whether they are pursuing a vocational
education.



A workshop like this has crosscut sleds to hand, and you use them
whenever you _can_, not whenever you _must_.

Wrong. Badly wrong. You use tools, adjuncts, and procedures when they
are
appropriate, not just for the sake of proving something. This is the
perfect example of taking it too far.

So what's wrong with using a sled ?

Nothing. It's a great adjunct - in its place. It's just not necessary to
use it all of the time. There are a ton of cuts on the table saw that do
not require or even benefit from the use of it. To state that a perfectly
safe cut on a saw without one is unsafe just because they didn't use one is
wrong and that's what I commented on.


This is an entirely appropriate cut to do on a sled. Doing it against
the fence like this is borderline for being in the proportions where
it becomes hazardous (neither of us can really tell from that
picture).

Wrong. There is plenty of support along the fence. It only requires a
glance to see that. This is not a small piece of wood he's trimming. It's
a matter of stability against the fence. He was only trimming an inch or so
off of a piece of wood that approached a foot in length. Please explain how
that proportion is boarderline to becoming hazardous. That's the problem
with blanket statements like one commonly finds here at the wreck - they
become mantras and ignore the fundamental principles. The cut he was doing
is one which a table saw does well and poses no problems to the operator.
The fellow in the picture was far from reaching any point of wood protruding
beyond the blade to be of concern.


A push block or any other device that lessens the control that the
operator's hands exert over the work piece would be flat out wrong.

Of course - but a block doesn't (a stick would).

It sure as hell would when the wood is still not fully on the bed.


I'm assuming that the "bed" here is actually a powered feed belt. If
it isn't, or if that belt slips, then you have the workpiece coming
back towards you. You need to control that, and you can't control it
with your fingers for the last part of the pass (at least not without
getting your fingers too close to the drum).


Andy - you're looking too hard for things to find wrong. Again, look at the
picture. He is providing the highest possible degree of control over his
workpiece. That's what it's about - it's not about gadgets and things. He
is not at the end of the push, he's at the beginning.
--

-Mike-