Silvan wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


If I could find Everclear locally I'd be using it, just for the
convenience - even with the taxes on it.

Next time you hit Richmond or some other semi-Southern city, check out the
local ABC store. They'll have Everclear, though possibly not by that name.


Not anymore, I don't think. Could just be local, but I'm fairly sure it has
been banned statewide. After too many dumbass college students
accidentally committed suicide.


Well, it's still available here in SC, at least as of Tuesday. Bit
of a drive farther than Richmond, but NC may still sell it.
Joe



Nasty stuff to drink by itself, though, unless you're already ripped.
IIRC, most of it goes into punch bowls for the unwary, often at church
picnics.




None for me, thanks. I get pretty well hammered from three **** water
American beers. I think if I ever had a shot of Everclear, I'd go straight
for the coma.

Phil Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:33 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:

Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.

snip

Filter the meths through a hollowed out half loaf of bread.
Colour gone, pyride gone. Drinkable.
Ask any seasoned hobo. A bottle of meths is a lot cheaper than
anything in the bottle store.

Then some get so drunk they follow up by eating the bread.
Or so I heard.

--

FF

Reagent grade stuff is pretty pure, believe me.

wrote in message
ups.com...

George wrote:
The college students can steal the 95% from Organic lab, like we did.


Unless it was spectrophotometric grade, which would be very expensive,
the other 5% might have included benzene.

For that matter, there are denatured alcohols sold for rubbing alcohol
and shellac thinner that are 95% ethanol.

--

FF

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:40:40 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

Reagent grade stuff is pretty pure, believe me.

It has to be. There wouldn't be a chemistry undergrad left with enough
sight to read the exam paper overwise.

George wrote:
Reagent grade stuff is pretty pure, believe me.

wrote in message
ups.com...

George wrote:
The college students can steal the 95% from Organic lab, like we
did.


Unless it was spectrophotometric grade, which would be very
expensive,
the other 5% might have included benzene.

For that matter, there are denatured alcohols sold for rubbing
alcohol
and shellac thinner that are 95% ethanol.


When I was in college spectrophotometric grade was pretty pure
and therefor quite expensive. Reagent grade was contaminated with
benzene which was a non-issue because the benzene did not interfere
with typical organic chemistry class uses--which did not include
getting drunk.

That is what our professor told us. Maybe they just didn't want us
stealing the stuff. Or maybe your professors were social Darwinists...
--

FF

Phil Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:33 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:


On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:


Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.


snip

Filter the meths through a hollowed out half loaf of bread.
Colour gone, pyride gone. Drinkable.
Ask any seasoned hobo. A bottle of meths is a lot cheaper than
anything in the bottle store.


That is so much BS! Drinkable, but not less toxic.

wrote:
George wrote:

The college students can steal the 95% from Organic lab, like we did.



Unless it was spectrophotometric grade, which would be very expensive,
the other 5% might have included benzene.

For that matter, there are denatured alcohols sold for rubbing alcohol
and shellac thinner that are 95% ethanol.


Gees! The other 5 percent is WATER. You only get benzene (a trace)
in the 100 percent because 100 percent is (or was) produced by
distilling against benzene.

Benzene is used to dehydrate and get higher percentage than the azeotropic
95/5.

If you want aliphatic only, makes sense to avoid benzene.

As there were no females, save nuns, (ok to date 'em, as long as you don't
get into the habit) at the school, we took our "jungle juice" on the road.
If the stuff hadn't been available, we would have distilled it on our own.

wrote in message
ups.com...

George wrote:
Reagent grade stuff is pretty pure, believe me.

wrote in message
ups.com...

George wrote:
The college students can steal the 95% from Organic lab, like we
did.


Unless it was spectrophotometric grade, which would be very
expensive,
the other 5% might have included benzene.

For that matter, there are denatured alcohols sold for rubbing
alcohol
and shellac thinner that are 95% ethanol.


When I was in college spectrophotometric grade was pretty pure
and therefor quite expensive. Reagent grade was contaminated with
benzene which was a non-issue because the benzene did not interfere
with typical organic chemistry class uses--which did not include
getting drunk.

That is what our professor told us. Maybe they just didn't want us
stealing the stuff. Or maybe your professors were social Darwinists...
--

FF

But the bread does remove the dye put in there for taxation purposes.
Farmers would do it to put farm gas in cars, or so im told by my
grandfather....

George E. Cawthon wrote:
Phil Hansen wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:33 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:


On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:


Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.



snip

Filter the meths through a hollowed out half loaf of bread.
Colour gone, pyride gone. Drinkable. Ask any seasoned hobo. A bottle
of meths is a lot cheaper than
anything in the bottle store.


That is so much BS! Drinkable, but not less toxic.

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:17:08 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:40:40 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

Reagent grade stuff is pretty pure, believe me.

It has to be. There wouldn't be a chemistry undergrad left with enough
sight to read the exam paper overwise.


Dad was in the Navy, just missing the first Vietnam escalation.

The buddies he keeps in contact with were another Helo pilot, and the
ship's Dentist.

Guess which one had access to drinkable grain alchohol.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:40:40 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

Reagent grade stuff is pretty pure, believe me.

It has to be. There wouldn't be a chemistry undergrad left with
enough
sight to read the exam paper overwise.

Non Sequitor.

AFAIK small doses of benzene do not cause blindness.
(e.g. check out the meaning of 'confabulation')

--

FF

George E. Cawthon wrote:
wrote:

...

Unless it was spectrophotometric grade, which would be very
expensive,
the other 5% might have included benzene.

For that matter, there are denatured alcohols sold for rubbing
alcohol
and shellac thinner that are 95% ethanol.


Gees! The other 5 percent is WATER. You only get benzene (a trace)
in the 100 percent because 100 percent is (or was) produced by
distilling against benzene.

That makes sense, though I wouldn't count on all of the other 5% being
water.

--

FF

No problem but there are two issues you may want to consider.

1. Methyl hydrate (methanol or methyl alcohol) is significantly more toxic
than ethanol (ethyl hydrate?) or denatured alcohol. Be careful with the
fumes.

2. It has been reported that a shellac film made from a methanol solution
is slightly more brittle than that made from an ethanol solution. If this
is not a concern for your project, don't worry about it.

Good Luck.

"RKG" wrote in message
...
Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl
hydrate. It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've
tried it on some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick

I though this was about methanol? When was there a differentiation in
taxes between farm and non-farm methanol?

If you are really talking about gasoline, I think something got lost
in the translation or your grandfather was a bit dotty. Dyes are used
in diesel for tax differentiation purposes, but in gas? Something is
screwy about this. Pump gas for cars has been colored since I was
little--yellow to red. What color would they put in farm gas? (or
maybe they didn't color it?) If the bread took all the color out,
what would they use to make it red like regular pump gas? And why in
hell would you use bread instead of diatomaceous earth? Are we
talking about the 1920s? 30s? I know it was not true in the 40s.
Maybe this coloring things has something to do with oil field areas a
burnable fraction was actually pumped (and stolen).


Eddie Munster wrote:
But the bread does remove the dye put in there for taxation purposes.
Farmers would do it to put farm gas in cars, or so im told by my
grandfather....

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Phil Hansen wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:33 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:


On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:


Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.




snip

Filter the meths through a hollowed out half loaf of bread.
Colour gone, pyride gone. Drinkable. Ask any seasoned hobo. A bottle
of meths is a lot cheaper than
anything in the bottle store.


That is so much BS! Drinkable, but not less toxic.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Pump gas for cars has been colored since I was
little--yellow to red.

ISTR that Sohio gasoline in the 1970's was red, white, or blue
with 'white' being undyed unleaded, red was leaded regular and
blue was leaded premium.

What color would they put in farm gas? (or
maybe they didn't color it?) ... And why in
hell would you use bread instead of diatomaceous earth?

Possibly because bread was more common or maybe because diatomaceous
earth would not work? Isn't DE is a physical filtrate that
will not remove dissolved substances.

Are we
talking about the 1920s? 30s? I know it was not true in the 40s.
Maybe this coloring things has something to do with oil field areas a

burnable fraction was actually pumped (and stolen).

Probably the story was from WWII when gasoline was rationed.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Pump gas for cars has been colored since I was
little--yellow to red.

ISTR that Sohio gasoline in the 1970's was red, white, or blue
with 'white' being undyed unleaded, red was leaded regular and
blue was leaded premium.

What color would they put in farm gas? (or
maybe they didn't color it?) ... And why in
hell would you use bread instead of diatomaceous earth?

Possibly because bread was more common or maybe because diatomaceous
earth would not work? Isn't DE is a physical filtrate that
will not remove dissolved substances.

Are we
talking about the 1920s? 30s? I know it was not true in the 40s.
Maybe this coloring things has something to do with oil field areas a

burnable fraction was actually pumped (and stolen).

Probably the story was from WWII when gasoline was rationed.

I don't know about the gas being colored, but I do know that in the early
'50s, farmers got a tax break on gasoline for "farm" use, and you could get
your farm tank filled by Agway, but you were NOT supposed to use it in your
auto, motorcycle, etc. I don't know as there was any actual telltale
connected with it, but I know Uncle never put it in any car, except maybe a
couple gallons in an emergency if someone didn't put gas in while in town,
and it might not make it to town.

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

"Norman D. Crow" wrote:
....

I don't know about the gas being colored, but I do know that in the early
'50s, farmers got a tax break on gasoline for "farm" use, and you could get
your farm tank filled by Agway, but you were NOT supposed to use it in your
auto, motorcycle, etc. I don't know as there was any actual telltale
connected with it, but I know Uncle never put it in any car, except maybe a
couple gallons in an emergency if someone didn't put gas in while in town,
and it might not make it to town.

Same system still in effect in all ag areas afaik.

Colored fuels came into being at least by the mid-50's (here in KS,
anyway). I'm not old enough to know prior to then just how far back it
actually goes. Multiple purposes--product indentification plus as in
the above example tax purposes. Farm diesel is still colered
differently from truck/pump/highway diesel as it is not subject to road
taxes (and, depending on local jurisdiction, perhaps other fees/taxes as
well). To best of my knowledge, there's so little farm gasoline these
days there is no off-road available (certainly not here, anyway). For
the old tractors and trucks, we buy pump gas, keep records of what is
off-road (local Co-op has key pumps so we have separate farm/non-farm
keys) and deduct the tax off the taxes when file.

One doson't want to be caught by the weigh station guys w/ long
haul/non-farm use farm diesel! They're pretty serious about
enforcement...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Same system still in effect in all ag areas afaik.

Colored fuels came into being at least by the mid-50's (here in KS,
anyway). I'm not old enough to know prior to then just how far back it
actually goes. Multiple purposes--product indentification plus as in
the above example tax purposes. Farm diesel is still colered
differently from truck/pump/highway diesel as it is not subject to road
taxes (and, depending on local jurisdiction, perhaps other fees/taxes as
well). To best of my knowledge, there's so little farm gasoline these
days there is no off-road available (certainly not here, anyway). For
the old tractors and trucks, we buy pump gas, keep records of what is
off-road (local Co-op has key pumps so we have separate farm/non-farm
keys) and deduct the tax off the taxes when file.

One doson't want to be caught by the weigh station guys w/ long
haul/non-farm use farm diesel! They're pretty serious about
enforcement...

Yep, they really want to know about that diesel fuel. I was still driving
truck when that changeover came in the 90's. Wasn't just the weigh stations,
they set up random checks all over PA just to see the color of your diesel
fuel.

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

In article , Norman D. Crow wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Same system still in effect in all ag areas afaik.

One doson't want to be caught by the weigh station guys w/ long
haul/non-farm use farm diesel! They're pretty serious about
enforcement...

Yep, they really want to know about that diesel fuel. I was still driving
truck when that changeover came in the 90's. Wasn't just the weigh stations,
they set up random checks all over PA just to see the color of your diesel
fuel.

The rumor (urban ledgend?) that I heard was that they assume you've been
using farm fuel since you bought it. So they charge you back tax on whatever
the odometer says.

Ed Clarke wrote:

....

The rumor (urban ledgend?) that I heard was that they assume you've been
using farm fuel since you bought it. So they charge you back tax on whatever
the odometer says.

Have no information on that...think it would be difficult to make that
stand up. I only farm, never drove commercially--well, did one trip w/ a
load of calves while in HS from LA to WY w/for local cattle hauler who
was in a bind one summer while I was in school...never again!

Duane Bozarth wrote:

"Norman D. Crow" wrote:
...

I don't know about the gas being colored, but I do know that in the early
'50s, farmers got a tax break on gasoline for "farm" use, and you could
get your farm tank filled by Agway, but you were NOT supposed to use it
in your auto, motorcycle, etc. I don't know as there was any actual
telltale connected with it, but I know Uncle never put it in any car,
except maybe a couple gallons in an emergency if someone didn't put gas
in while in town, and it might not make it to town.

Same system still in effect in all ag areas afaik.

Colored fuels came into being at least by the mid-50's (here in KS,
anyway). I'm not old enough to know prior to then just how far back it
actually goes. Multiple purposes--product indentification plus as in
the above example tax purposes. Farm diesel is still colered
differently from truck/pump/highway diesel as it is not subject to road
taxes (and, depending on local jurisdiction, perhaps other fees/taxes as
well). To best of my knowledge, there's so little farm gasoline these
days there is no off-road available (certainly not here, anyway). For
the old tractors and trucks, we buy pump gas, keep records of what is
off-road (local Co-op has key pumps so we have separate farm/non-farm
keys) and deduct the tax off the taxes when file.

One doson't want to be caught by the weigh station guys w/ long
haul/non-farm use farm diesel! They're pretty serious about
enforcement...

Another place colored fuel is used is aviation gasoline. 100/130 leaded is
green, 100 low-lead is blue. When you check the tank sump to make sure
there's no water, you also check the color of the gas to make sure it's
what the plane you're flying is supposed to use.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Norm Crow notes:

Are we
talking about the 1920s? 30s? I know it was not true in the 40s.
Maybe this coloring things has something to do with oil field areas a

burnable fraction was actually pumped (and stolen).

Probably the story was from WWII when gasoline was rationed.

I don't know about the gas being colored, but I do know that in the early
'50s, farmers got a tax break on gasoline for "farm" use, and you could get
your farm tank filled by Agway, but you were NOT supposed to use it in your
auto, motorcycle, etc. I don't know as there was any actual telltale
connected with it, but I know Uncle never put it in any car, except maybe a
couple gallons in an emergency if someone didn't put gas in while in town,
and it might not make it to town.

I know zip about colored gas, but farmers still get a break on fuel for the
tractors in the form of gas that is not taxed for road use. Basically, they pay
almost no taxes, which tends to knock at least 30 cents a gallon off. A few
farmers around here actually have fuel tanks on their farms, where they can
just run the tractor or other gear up to the tank. Diesel is available the same
way.

Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

Charlie Self wrote:
....
I know zip about colored gas, but farmers still get a break on fuel for the
tractors in the form of gas that is not taxed for road use. Basically, they pay
almost no taxes, which tends to knock at least 30 cents a gallon off. A few
farmers around here actually have fuel tanks on their farms, where they can
just run the tractor or other gear up to the tank. Diesel is available the same
way.

Don't know where you are, but all operations here have bulk tanks on
farm...at 200+ gal/tankful for a modern tractor, to do otherwise is
certainly impractical...as far as I know, all states require
identification of off-road fuel. It must be an area of quite small
farms for there to be any significant number of gasoline powered
equipments (even trucks) on a farm these days...out here in grains
(that's wheat, milo, corn, soybeans, some sunflowers) country, there
isn't anybody still using gasoline and, in fact, there aren't even any
equipments made w/ gasoline engines anymore (nor for 30 years or so, in
fact) that would be used here. There was a big switch to LP in the 60s,
then as equipment kept getting larger and larger, the reliability of
diesel plus price led to an almost complete switchover to diesel,
certainly by the 90s. A few folks keep one or two of the old small
tractors or trucks for around the place (as do I) for mowing and use
with bucket, etc., but there's so little gasoline on farm that I can't
get bulk delivery of it any longer, although do diesel and could LP
(although that's now driven mostly by residential demand for those who
aren't on a natural gas tap, not because there's sufficient equipment
usage by itself).

A "small" tractor here now is 100 hp...when I was a young(er)
whippersnapper in the 60s, when we got our first Case 930 the ~80 hp
beast seemed absolutely huge! Large tractors now are pushing 300 hp,
4-wheel drive articulated beasties. Now we do rowcrop cultivating w/
larger tractors than the largest made when I was growing up. Of course,
we went from four rows to 6, then 8, then 12, now 16 at 3 mph, then 4-5,
now pushing 8. I don't have it yet, but could put on GPS guidance and
start down the row maintaining inch accuracy and repeatibility from one
pass to the next. Planter now does actually count and place each seed
in the row within a fraction of an inch relative to the previous to
control seeding density. A combine has yield monitors tied to GPS to
monitor yield versus field area which can then automatically be
correlated to soil conditions, fertilizer and herbicide/insecticide
applications, etc. to determine most cost-effective practices...'tis
absolutely a complete revolution to the 60 year old who spent 30 years
as an engineer and came back to the farm after Dad died...

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Charlie Self wrote:
...
I know zip about colored gas, but farmers still get a break on fuel for
the tractors in the form of gas that is not taxed for road use.
Basically, they pay almost no taxes, which tends to knock at least 30
cents a gallon off. A few farmers around here actually have fuel tanks on
their farms, where they can just run the tractor or other gear up to the
tank. Diesel is available the same way.

Don't know where you are, but all operations here have bulk tanks on
farm...at 200+ gal/tankful for a modern tractor, to do otherwise is
certainly impractical...as far as I know, all states require
identification of off-road fuel. It must be an area of quite small
farms for there to be any significant number of gasoline powered
equipments (even trucks) on a farm these days...out here in grains
(that's wheat, milo, corn, soybeans, some sunflowers) country, there
isn't anybody still using gasoline and, in fact, there aren't even any
equipments made w/ gasoline engines anymore (nor for 30 years or so, in
fact) that would be used here. There was a big switch to LP in the 60s,
then as equipment kept getting larger and larger, the reliability of
diesel plus price led to an almost complete switchover to diesel,
certainly by the 90s. A few folks keep one or two of the old small
tractors or trucks for around the place (as do I) for mowing and use
with bucket, etc., but there's so little gasoline on farm that I can't
get bulk delivery of it any longer, although do diesel and could LP
(although that's now driven mostly by residential demand for those who
aren't on a natural gas tap, not because there's sufficient equipment
usage by itself).

I believe Charlie's in the same general region I am. Around here it's small
farms mostly. The guy down the way grows a little bit of corn and other
things and a lot of tobacco--best cigar-wrapper in the world--even the
Cubans used to import it. Most of his equipment dates back to the '60s or
earlier.

A "small" tractor here now is 100 hp...when I was a young(er)
whippersnapper in the 60s, when we got our first Case 930 the ~80 hp
beast seemed absolutely huge! Large tractors now are pushing 300 hp,
4-wheel drive articulated beasties. Now we do rowcrop cultivating w/
larger tractors than the largest made when I was growing up. Of course,
we went from four rows to 6, then 8, then 12, now 16 at 3 mph, then 4-5,
now pushing 8. I don't have it yet, but could put on GPS guidance and
start down the row maintaining inch accuracy and repeatibility from one
pass to the next. Planter now does actually count and place each seed
in the row within a fraction of an inch relative to the previous to
control seeding density. A combine has yield monitors tied to GPS to
monitor yield versus field area which can then automatically be
correlated to soil conditions, fertilizer and herbicide/insecticide
applications, etc. to determine most cost-effective practices...'tis
absolutely a complete revolution to the 60 year old who spent 30 years
as an engineer and came back to the farm after Dad died...

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:

....
... It must be an area of quite small
farms for there to be any significant number of gasoline powered
equipments (even trucks) on a farm these days...

....

I believe Charlie's in the same general region I am. Around here it's small
farms mostly. The guy down the way grows a little bit of corn and other
things and a lot of tobacco--best cigar-wrapper in the world--even the
Cubans used to import it. Most of his equipment dates back to the '60s or
earlier.

That's what I surmised...our 12 quarters (160 A/quarter for those where
things aren't all broken up into nice neat square sections) were well
above average for the county when I was growing up...now I'm one of the
smaller producers in the county, but at 60+ I'm not looking to expand
further...

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 20:55:30 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


farms mostly. The guy down the way grows a little bit of corn and other
things and a lot of tobacco--best cigar-wrapper in the world--even the
Cubans used to import it.

I was going to write "HEY! That's CT Valley Wrapper!", then I
realized it was you. G

Barry

Duane Bozarth wrote:

applications, etc. to determine most cost-effective practices...'tis
absolutely a complete revolution to the 60 year old who spent 30 years
as an engineer and came back to the farm after Dad died...

That's why 90% of farms are owned by Conglom-Ag isn't it? Seems to me
Farmer Brown can't afford all that big John Deere iron I see running out in
farm country. That stuff must be *expensive*. They want $1,200 for a li'l
ol' lawn mower.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Norman D. Crow wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Pump gas for cars has been colored since I was
little--yellow to red.

ISTR that Sohio gasoline in the 1970's was red, white, or blue
with 'white' being undyed unleaded, red was leaded regular and
blue was leaded premium.


What color would they put in farm gas? (or
maybe they didn't color it?) ... And why in
hell would you use bread instead of diatomaceous earth?

Possibly because bread was more common or maybe because diatomaceous
earth would not work? Isn't DE is a physical filtrate that
will not remove dissolved substances.


Are we
talking about the 1920s? 30s? I know it was not true in the 40s.
Maybe this coloring things has something to do with oil field areas a

burnable fraction was actually pumped (and stolen).


Probably the story was from WWII when gasoline was rationed.


I don't know about the gas being colored, but I do know that in the early
'50s, farmers got a tax break on gasoline for "farm" use, and you could get
your farm tank filled by Agway, but you were NOT supposed to use it in your
auto, motorcycle, etc. I don't know as there was any actual telltale
connected with it, but I know Uncle never put it in any car, except maybe a
couple gallons in an emergency if someone didn't put gas in while in town,
and it might not make it to town.


That's the way I remember it.

Norman D. Crow wrote:

Yep, they really want to know about that diesel fuel. I was still driving
truck when that changeover came in the 90's. Wasn't just the weigh
stations, they set up random checks all over PA just to see the color of
your diesel fuel.

I think they got over it because nobody bothered to try to sneak by anymore.
Nobody has ever looked at the color of my fuel that I recall. I started
driving in '97.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Duane Bozarth responds:

Charlie Self wrote:
...
I know zip about colored gas, but farmers still get a break on fuel for the
tractors in the form of gas that is not taxed for road use. Basically, they
pay
almost no taxes, which tends to knock at least 30 cents a gallon off. A few
farmers around here actually have fuel tanks on their farms, where they can
just run the tractor or other gear up to the tank. Diesel is available the
same
way.

Don't know where you are, but all operations here have bulk tanks on
farm...at 200+ gal/tankful for a modern tractor, to do otherwise is
certainly impractical.

Most farms around here are small, probably under 300 acres, often much smaller.
The land is too cut up by forest and hills for them to be otherwise. A large
cattle operation might have land scattered over miles, but there will be other
farms and houses in the spaces.

Tractors around here tend to hold about what a car or light truck would hold.
The midwest monsters are not useful: they'd never get around the obstacles
efficiently.

I'd guess most of the more up-to-date operations use diesel.

Farming here consists of truck farms, small cattle operations, and dairy farms.
Obviously, some grains are grown, but most of it is corn for silage.

What you describe would make most Virginia farmers quit and for a factory job.
In fact, that's how many of them survived. Day job in a factory--or, in the
case of those like my father-in-law, the mines (just thinking about that
working environment gives me nightmares)--the rest of their time on the farm.
FIL did his mining long enough to pay for the acres he wanted, then went to
farming full time on less than 200 very hilly acres in western Virginia. His
place is in the mountains, so those articulated tractors would spend more time
tumbling down the hills than they would doing useful work.

Different strokes for different areas.


Charlie Self
"It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric
Hoffer

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

snip

Most farms around here are small, probably under 300 acres, often much
smaller.
The land is too cut up by forest and hills for them to be otherwise. A
large
cattle operation might have land scattered over miles, but there will be
other
farms and houses in the spaces.

Tractors around here tend to hold about what a car or light truck would
hold.
The midwest monsters are not useful: they'd never get around the obstacles
efficiently.

I'd guess most of the more up-to-date operations use diesel.

Farming here consists of truck farms, small cattle operations, and dairy
farms.
Obviously, some grains are grown, but most of it is corn for silage.


snip

Different strokes for different areas.

Those flatland farmers will never understand hill country Charlie. Western
NY dairy farm, about 200 acres, rolling hills, milking about 30-35 head.
Uncle's first tractor was a Farmall Super A about 1950, later a Super C,
biggest tractor he ever owned was a Super H. His son did move up to a
Farmall 650, later a mid size Ford diesel, but nothing over 100HP. There
were times a little more HP would have been "nice", but not necessary for
day to day usage.

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Norman D. Crow wrote:

Yep, they really want to know about that diesel fuel. I was still
driving
truck when that changeover came in the 90's. Wasn't just the weigh
stations, they set up random checks all over PA just to see the color of
your diesel fuel.

I think they got over it because nobody bothered to try to sneak by
anymore.
Nobody has ever looked at the color of my fuel that I recall. I started
driving in '97.

Uncle Sam retired me in '97(type II diabetes on needles). Seems the big
switch was in early/mid 90's, and that's when they were checking.

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Duane Bozarth wrote:

applications, etc. to determine most cost-effective practices...'tis
absolutely a complete revolution to the 60 year old who spent 30 years
as an engineer and came back to the farm after Dad died...

That's why 90% of farms are owned by Conglom-Ag isn't it? Seems to me
Farmer Brown can't afford all that big John Deere iron I see running out
in
farm country. That stuff must be *expensive*. They want $1,200 for a
li'l
ol' lawn mower.

There's an old(very old) joke they like to tell at the tractor pulls about
some city slicker getting stuck, waking up a farmer for a tow, then telling
the farmer 'now be careful you don't damage my $15,000 Cadillac". The farmer
responds "Well, you can be damn sure I'm not going to damage my $80,000
tractor"!

--
Nahmie
Those on the cutting edge bleed a lot.

Silvan wrote:

Norman D. Crow wrote:

Yep, they really want to know about that diesel fuel. I was still driving
truck when that changeover came in the 90's. Wasn't just the weigh
stations, they set up random checks all over PA just to see the color of
your diesel fuel.

I think they got over it because nobody bothered to try to sneak by anymore.
Nobody has ever looked at the color of my fuel that I recall. I started
driving in '97.

That sounds reasonable to me...I suspect only in cases where they've
already got a renegade that they're looking for even more against or in
cases where there's information a particular outfit has been using
off-road fuel. There have been, over the years, a few instances where
ag distributors have been hit because their delivery units were left in
rural areas out here. W/ fuel prices the way they have been over recent
years, we don't leave the bulk tanks unlocked any more, either....

Silvan wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:

applications, etc. to determine most cost-effective practices...'tis
absolutely a complete revolution to the 60 year old who spent 30 years
as an engineer and came back to the farm after Dad died...

That's why 90% of farms are owned by Conglom-Ag isn't it?

Actually, that's not true at all...in actuality, other than the
corporate hog and chicken producers, most are still family-owned
businesses...of course, they have gotten larger...

... Seems to me
Farmer Brown can't afford all that big John Deere iron I see running out in
farm country. That stuff must be *expensive*. They want $1,200 for a li'l
ol' lawn mower.

True...it takes more than 40A and a mule these days, particularly in
commodity crops...

However, it's like any other industry in some ways...the higher
productivity of the larger equipment and improved agronomics is the
key. Recall I mentioned in '63 I planted four rows at 3-1/2 mph. Now
it's 16 at about 7-1/4 mph. That's a diferrence of roughly a factor of
eight. That crop in '63 might have yielded 60 bu/acre (milo, dry land
(non-irrigated)). Today, assuming similar growing conditions, I'd
expect near 80 to as much as 100. However, the recent spike in fuel
costs is definitely a hit--I'm studying carefully what to do for next
spring. Winter wheat, of course, is already in and up (and looking
good, here, too!)

"Norman D. Crow" wrote:
....
Those flatland farmers will never understand hill country Charlie. ...

Well, not necessarily...

I got an engineering degree when got out of high school (for complex
reasons relating to the state of farming in general and the particular
state of the family farm at the time) and spent 10 years in Lynchburg,
VA, and then another 25 or so in the Oak Ridge, TN, area so I know the
"hill country" there pretty well...

In TN, I serviced our line of online coal ash analyzers at mines and
prep plants all over coal country in TN, VA, WVA, and KY. I know most
of eastern KY and SW VA pretty darn well. We had fewer in WVA and most
TN mines were surface so I had less direct interaction there. I got to
know and like a tremendous number of miners over the years. It's a
great portion of the country. I always told others that sitting around
w/ the miners after shift was essentially the same as sitting around at
the Co-op elevator scales w/ the grain farmers or the sale barn w/ the
cattlemen--just a slightly different set of topics for each....

My biggest complaint was that servicing of the analyzers was always left
for night shift when running gob and it never failed but to be a cold
rain or snow at 2 AM on the outside belt in KY in Feb...

There really is very little difference in the farmers themselves
between the regions, it's all in the crops and ground they're farming.
Out here where it only rains 18" or so a year, it is simply not possible
to grow most things that are grown back there and the yields of what
does grow are not sufficient on small acreages to make it. There are
still a number of smaller operations in central and eastern KS, OK, NE,
AR, etc., that look much more like what you're familiar with and where,
unfortunately, the economics are such that it does require a second (or
third) job. Here on the high plains, it has mostly been a case of the
second and third generations mergeing (sp?) two or more operations
together as the parents retire. In most cases in at least one of those
families all children will have left so there is no one else to take
over. It wasn't until Dad died that I decided to come back and that was
not planned ahead--I discovered when he passed very unexpectedly that I
had such emotional ties to the place I could not think of letting it
pass out of the family. Since my kids were all raised in VA and TN,
they have rememberances of their grandparents, but no real attachment--I
don't expect either of the boys will have the same realization when I'm
gone so at that point it probably will also be merged in w/ one or more
of the neighboring places and someone will probably put a town-farm on
the home place itself... I've a few more decent years, but certainly
in 10-15 I'll be thinking it's time to try to arrange for something not
quite so demanding...

Undoubtedly far more than you wanted to know...

Enjoyed the interaction, guys, thanks...

-dpb

On 19 Dec 2004 10:02:21 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


What you describe would make most Virginia farmers quit and for a factory job.
In fact, that's how many of them survived. Day job in a factory--or, in the
case of those like my father-in-law, the mines (just thinking about that
working environment gives me nightmares)--the rest of their time on the farm.


The majority of the farms in NYS are run by people with
other sources of income: there just ain't enough money
in it.

Charlie Self wrote:
....
I get a little nuttier than usual with too much exposure to flatlands. About
all I want for flat is the above area, the Virginia Piedmont. Absolutely
gorgeous country, almost as pretty as where I live now, in the foothills of the
Blue Ridge, but out of what is formally called "Piedmont".
....

It is pretty, I'll agree. I spent 10 years or so in the Lynchburg
area, then 25 in east TN.

I missed the flat country the whole time, however. I like seeing the
far horizon, but it (like anything else) isn't everybody's cup o' tea.

In article
,
"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Pump gas for cars has been colored since I was
little--yellow to red.

Don't forget blue Sunoco.

--
Hank Gillette

Duane Bozarth wrote:

That's why 90% of farms are owned by Conglom-Ag isn't it?

Actually, that's not true at all...in actuality, other than the
corporate hog and chicken producers, most are still family-owned
businesses...of course, they have gotten larger...

You know more about it than I do, surely, but it certainly looks to me like
what I said above is true. Driving through the rural Carolinas, for
example, it seems like just about every patch of dirt that doesn't have a
strip mall on it has a sign in the corner saying something like "This
Property Owned and Operated by Agri-Mega-Corp."

(non-irrigated)). Today, assuming similar growing conditions, I'd
expect near 80 to as much as 100. However, the recent spike in fuel
costs is definitely a hit--I'm studying carefully what to do for next
spring. Winter wheat, of course, is already in and up (and looking
good, here, too!)

It also seems to me that efficiency or no, it must be much easier to go
broke than to turn a profit in that business. I guess that's true of any
business, but it just seems to me, as an outsider, like the deck is stacked
against farming all around. They want your land for strip malls and yuppie
gated golf communities, so they can get higher property taxes.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/