"RKG" wrote in message
...
Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl
hydrate. It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've
tried it on some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick

Hi Rick - don't know the real answer to your question because being the
chemistry genius that I am, I have no idea what methyl hydrate is.
Though... you really shouldn't have any trouble finding denatured alcohol
just about anywhere. Ace Hardware carries it, as do just about all of the
chain hardware and home centers. It's really not that expensive to buy a
gallon of the stuff and keep it around. You might want to also try
automotive refinishing supply houses. Those guys often sell chemicals like
that a lot cheaper than the home centers.
--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:

"RKG" wrote in message
.. .


Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl
hydrate. It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've
tried it on some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick



Hi Rick - don't know the real answer to your question because being the
chemistry genius that I am, I have no idea what methyl hydrate is.
Though... you really shouldn't have any trouble finding denatured alcohol
just about anywhere. Ace Hardware carries it, as do just about all of the
chain hardware and home centers. It's really not that expensive to buy a
gallon of the stuff and keep it around. You might want to also try
automotive refinishing supply houses. Those guys often sell chemicals like
that a lot cheaper than the home centers.


Around here (Southern Ontario) all the places I have checked carry
methyl hydrate (basically methyl alcohol) instead of denatured alcohol
(ethyl alcohol with a poison added so you can't drink it). I'ts
labelled as a shellac thinner.

Rick

Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 10:42am (RKG) wants
to know:
Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl hydrate.
It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've tried it on
some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Comparing, I think I'd prefer to go with denatured alcohol.
http://www.syndel.com/msds/denatured_ethanol_msds.html
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_hydrate.html

If, and when, I switch to using shellac tho, I'm going to do some
experimenting using ever-clear, instead.



JOAT
We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails.
- unknown

Ammonia can be used to clean after using shellac, not as pricey as
alcohol.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:40:37 -0600, Robert Galloway
wrote:

Methanol. I used to use Solox brand MetOH to thin and clean shellac
brushes and it worked great. Never started with the flakes so can't say
how that would work but as a thinner, no problem.

I too am in Souther Ontario and don't know what to use. When your
certain either way, please speak up and let us know what you think. I
can't find denatured alcohol anywhere. But I seem to recall that LV
sells something called shellac thinner?

John

RKG wrote:

Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl
hydrate. It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've
tried it on some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick

Methanol. I used to use Solox brand MetOH to thin and clean shellac
brushes and it worked great. Never started with the flakes so can't say
how that would work but as a thinner, no problem.

Mike Marlow wrote:

"RKG" wrote in message
...

Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl
hydrate. It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've
tried it on some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick


Hi Rick - don't know the real answer to your question because being the
chemistry genius that I am, I have no idea what methyl hydrate is.
Though... you really shouldn't have any trouble finding denatured alcohol
just about anywhere. Ace Hardware carries it, as do just about all of the
chain hardware and home centers. It's really not that expensive to buy a
gallon of the stuff and keep it around. You might want to also try
automotive refinishing supply houses. Those guys often sell chemicals like
that a lot cheaper than the home centers.

Eddie Munster wrote:

I too am in Souther Ontario and don't know what to use. When your
certain either way, please speak up and let us know what you think. I
can't find denatured alcohol anywhere. But I seem to recall that LV
sells something called shellac thinner?

John

RKG wrote:

Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to
dissolve them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using
methyl hydrate. It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around
here. I've tried it on some small stuff and don't see any difference
immediately.

Rick


I'm trying both right now, as far as dissolving the flakes I see no
difference and both dry equally fast. The methyl hydrate appears to be
a little more toxic but compared to some of the other finishes we use
it's not bad. The LV website lists their shellac thinner as a mixture
of ethenol methenol - basically denatured alcohol. A 32 oz can
-slightly less than 1 L is 10.95 a 4 L jug of methyl hydrate at my local
home hardware is 7. less then 1/4 the price.

Rick

Shellac thinner will be some sort of alcohol or mixture of
alcohols. I should think that you can ask LV what's in theirs
and they'd tell you.

Ethanol is the least toxic of the alcohols.

Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.

They will all disolve shellac, so will propyl and isopropyl alcohol
but that usually has too much water in it to be a good shellac
thinner.

--

FF

In article , Eddie Munster
wrote:

I too am in Souther Ontario and don't know what to use. When your
certain either way, please speak up and let us know what you think. I
can't find denatured alcohol anywhere. But I seem to recall that LV
sells something called shellac thinner?

The LV stuff is denatured ethyl. I buy it when I can combine the
shipping costs with other stuff, but by itself it's too expensive.

As I posted earlier:

Rubbing Alcohol Compound, United Pharmacists brand, packaged by RW
Packaging (in Manitoba... No address but postal code is R2R 1V7). 95%
ethyl.

No problem with using methanol. Depending on your needs you might find it a
better solvent than ethanol due to it's lower boiling point (evaporates
faster). I'm not 100 % sure, but the solubility of the shellac flakes in
methanol might be better than in ethanol.





"RKG" wrote in message
...
Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl hydrate.
It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've tried it on
some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick

Might want to first find out why denatured isn't sold regularly. Here the
denaturing is to avoid excise tax on booze. Might come up against your
"revenuers" if you tried. Given the deadl(ier) nature of methanol, I have
to believe that there's some legal reason why it's what's available rather
than ethanol.

"JGS" wrote in message
...
Hi Doug,
If you know of anyone who might be interested in distributing denatured
ethanol in the GTA or other
parts of southern Ontario have them email me at woodpdg at sympaticodotca.
JG

Hi George,
Thanks for the heads-up but I have asked many, many clerks and managers in
paint/finishing stores why they do not carry it. For the most part they do not
know or care what they are selling. For those that do know, they tell me it is
consumer resistance to spending more for ethanol over methanol. When I bring up
the health concern they get that deer in the headlights look and then slink
away.
All it will take is a few stores to start carrying it and the rest will follow.
Cheers, JG

George wrote:

Might want to first find out why denatured isn't sold regularly. Here the
denaturing is to avoid excise tax on booze. Might come up against your
"revenuers" if you tried. Given the deadl(ier) nature of methanol, I have
to believe that there's some legal reason why it's what's available rather
than ethanol.

"JGS" wrote in message
...
Hi Doug,
If you know of anyone who might be interested in distributing denatured
ethanol in the GTA or other
parts of southern Ontario have them email me at woodpdg at sympaticodotca.
JG

It's a little amusing the responses contained in this thread regarding the
toxicity of methanol.

I am willing to bet that if the op was about using mineral spirits or
lacquer thinner, toxicity would nerver be mentioned.

Just dont drink your solvents or bath in them and you will be ok.








"RKG" wrote in message
...
Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl hydrate.
It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've tried it on
some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick

Relative toxicity, and there are a lot of other things he's _not_ using, I'm
sure, which of course is not worthy of comment.

http://www.bazellracefuels.com/Methanol.htm Check that bit about the odor
threshold, and the ability to get a lethal dose from mucosa and through the
skin.

This is some truly bad sh*t, which does the same job as its less toxic
cousin(s), one of which is even available in "food grade."



"stoutman" wrote in message
m...
It's a little amusing the responses contained in this thread regarding the
toxicity of methanol.

I am willing to bet that if the op was about using mineral spirits or
lacquer thinner, toxicity would nerver be mentioned.

Just dont drink your solvents or bath in them and you will be ok.








"RKG" wrote in message
...
Most of the directions I have seen for shellac flakes call to dissolve
them in denatured alcohol. Is there a problem with using methyl
hydrate.
It is certainly cheaper and easier to find around here. I've tried it
on
some small stuff and don't see any difference immediately.

Rick

On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:

Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.

I thought you didn't have methylated spirits in the USA ?

Anyway, UK (and AFAIK, everywhere) methylated spirits is a mixture of
four things - ethanol, methanol (about 1/3rd), purple dye and pyridine
(a stenching agent).

Purple dye will colour blonde shellac, but it's not too hard to find
undyed meths..

Pyridine stinks. I know methanol is a hazard, but it's actually the
pyridine that I find the most offensive part of working with meths.
Supposedly there have been pyridine-free meths blends, but AFAIK
they're not available in the UK at all these days. Given the toxicity
of meths and the risk of not having it "marked" in such a way, then I
can believe this. OTOH, pure methanol is easily available unstenched.

When I can get hold of it (friends in the lab trade) I use pure
lab-grade ethanol. This is safer because of not having the methanol in
it, and it's much more pleasant to use as there's no pyridine. However
the paperwork to get it is frightening, and the suppliers don't regard
wood finishing as a suitable cause for supplying it.

--
Smert' spamionam

Thanks for all the comments. Comments in general seemed to think it
would work fine so I used it with shellac flakes on a small cabinet I
built for my grandson, it works fine. I don't spray and as with any of
the solvents we use you take precautions.

Having worked in nuclear plants for 27 years and continually taking
safety courses, when I started woodworking after retiring my first
purchases included an air cleaner that hangs from the ceiling and gets
turned on whenever I am working in the shop, a dust collector and a dust
respirator. Once I started doing finishing I got a chemical respirator
and the cartridges get changed regularly.

Since my 25' x 25' shop is in the basement I'll spend the extra and use
the denatured alcohol LV sells in the winter when I can't really vent
the shop outside like I do in the warmer weather.

Rick

Charlie Self wrote:

it, I could drive a few miles--Franklin, one county over is supposed to be
one of the centers of the bootleg booze production in the South. Pick up
some second run distilled stuff at nearly 200 proof. That should do 'er.

My distant relations have NO idea what you're talking about.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

On 15 Dec 2004 14:25:02 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Jeez. I just buy whatever the paint store has in stock

We have _huge_ taxes on retail drinkable alcohol. As a result,
"non-drinking" alcohol is very difficult to get hold of.

We also have practically no moonshine distilling. If you're so
inclined, you're more likely to be making strong cider or beer.

--
Smert' spamionam

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:

Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.

I thought you didn't have methylated spirits in the USA ?

Anyway, UK (and AFAIK, everywhere) methylated spirits is a mixture of
four things - ethanol, methanol (about 1/3rd), purple dye and pyridine
(a stenching agent).


The Canadian use of "methyl hydrate" was the original source of discussion.
By name it would seem it really is wood alcohol,
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_hydrate.html which as we know is not
the same a methylated (denatured) spirits
http://www.birdbrand.co.uk/msds/Meth...%20Spirits.pdf. US doesn't add
the dye to our mix, but the residue of some of the dehydrating agents can be
tough on you, even in relatively small quantities.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:

Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.

I thought you didn't have methylated spirits in the USA ?

Anyway, UK (and AFAIK, everywhere) methylated spirits is a mixture of
four things - ethanol, methanol (about 1/3rd), purple dye and
pyridine
(a stenching agent).


My mistake, I thought methylated spritis was a synomym for methanol.
It may no longer be available but from your description I daresay
methylated spritis may be very similar to what we used to use for
mimeograph copies. Though from what I remember of the odor it did
not have pyridine in it.

--

FF

....

When I can get hold of it (friends in the lab trade) I use pure
lab-grade ethanol. This is safer because of not having the methanol
in
it, and it's much more pleasant to use as there's no pyridine.
However
the paperwork to get it is frightening, and the suppliers don't
regard
wood finishing as a suitable cause for supplying it.


In many states pure ethanol, well, almost pure it has some water
in it as does all ethanol once it is exposed to the air, is
available in liquor stores. It is pure enough for use as
shellac thinner and a number of folks prefer it for French
Polishing. No paperwork, it simply has state taxes accessed
on it that non-consumable alcohol mixtures do not.

--

FF

I think the wood alcohol is poisonous and the grain alcohol is the
drinky kind. I think I have seen it for sale in booze stores?

Where does ethanol fit in?

On 15 Dec 2004 08:04:30 -0800, wrote:

In many states pure ethanol, well, almost pure it has some water
in it as does all ethanol once it is exposed to the air, is
available in liquor stores.

I've never seen "Everclear" or equivalent in the UK. I've never even
seen it in the USA - the last few times I've visited I've been on
quick trips in uptown urban areas, not prowling the bodegas.

If I could find Everclear locally I'd be using it, just for the
convenience - even with the taxes on it.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:30:03 -0500, Eddie Munster
wrote:

I think the wood alcohol is poisonous and the grain alcohol is the
drinky kind.

Ethanol, good stuff, sometimes called "grain alcohol".

Methanol, bad stuff, sometimes called "wood alcohol".

Eddie Munster writes:

I think the wood alcohol is poisonous and the grain alcohol is the
drinky kind. I think I have seen it for sale in booze stores?

Wood alcohol is methanol.

Where does ethanol fit in?

Thats the stuff in beer and wine. It would be the best solvent,
because it's not so very poisonous (after all it you drink...), but
because you can drink it it's loaded with a very heavy tax that makes
it very expensive if bought without any nasty stuff mixed in.

BTW: glycerine is also an alcohol..

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Andy Dingley writes:

On 15 Dec 2004 14:25:02 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Jeez. I just buy whatever the paint store has in stock

We have _huge_ taxes on retail drinkable alcohol. As a result,
"non-drinking" alcohol is very difficult to get hold of.

We also have practically no moonshine distilling. If you're so
inclined, you're more likely to be making strong cider or beer.

Well, nuts to that. I don't drink these days, but back in my boozing days, I
can recall hitting some white lightning that really lived up to its name. By
the 4th ounce or so, you thought you'd been hit by lightning. If you took
another ounce, you woke up wishing you would BE hit by lightning.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

Eddie Munster wrote:
I think the wood alcohol is poisonous and the grain alcohol is the
drinky kind. I think I have seen it for sale in booze stores?

Where does ethanol fit in?

There are many kinds of alcohol. From a chemical point of view, the
word "alcohol" describes a large class of chemical compounds
containing an OH group connected to a carbon atom. The three most
common alcohols most lay people hear about are methanol, ethanol, and
isopropanol.

What is commonly called "wood alchol" is methanol, and yes it is
poisonous, even in very small amounts.

Grain alcohol is ethanol. In large quantities, it too is poisonous,
as a few unfortunate college kids find out every year; chug a quart of
whisky and you'll probably be dead before the night is out.

Absolute ethanol (not to be confused with the Absolut brand of vodka)
is just very pure ethanol. This has no water in it (unlike vodka,
which is more or less half water, depending on the proof). It is
generally only available by special license to industrial customers.

There are also other extremely pure grades of ethanol (reagent grade,
spectroscopic grade, etc) which are increasingly more pure, and
increasingly more expensive.

Denatured Alcohol is absolute ethanol with a little methanol added to
it, to intentionally make it unfit to drink. Since you can't drink
it, the government isn't interested in taxing or controlling it, and
it's much more widely available than absolute. For most uses as an
industrial solvent (such as for disolving shelac), the little bit of
methanol doesn't really matter. If memory serves, the addition of the
methanol also aids in the removal of the last bits of water during the
distilation process.

What's sold in most drugstores as "rubbing alcohol" is isopropanol
(typically 70%, the rest is water). To the best of my knowlege, it's
not toxic, at least in small quantities. The reason it's sold in drug
stores is because it evaporates fast, so it makes a great cooling
rubdown.

In article , (Roy Smith) wrote:

What's sold in most drugstores as "rubbing alcohol" is isopropanol
(typically 70%, the rest is water). To the best of my knowlege, it's
not toxic, at least in small quantities.

Yes, it is toxic, even in small quantities. In fact, in rats at least, it's
*more* toxic than methanol. The oral LD-50 (lethal dose to 50% of test
subjects) in rats is 5040mg/kg for isopropyl alchohol, and 5628 for methanol.
I believe that in humans it's not as hazardous as methanol is, but it
certainly is not something you want to ingest.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:30:03 -0500, Eddie Munster
wrote:

I think the wood alcohol is poisonous and the grain alcohol is the
drinky kind.

Ethanol, good stuff, sometimes called "grain alcohol".


Or Vodka....

Check the LD50, and it's not so benign either, though I have booked 0.36
that was still more or less upright.

95% is as good as it gets with ethanol, because the 95/5 azeotrope prevents
further distillation. Anything beyond has to be dried another way, some of
which are nastier than the methanol.

On 15 Dec 2004 13:12:17 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

Denatured Alcohol is absolute ethanol with a little methanol added to
it, to intentionally make it unfit to drink. Since you can't drink
it, the government isn't interested in taxing or controlling it, and
it's much more widely available than absolute. For most uses as an
industrial solvent (such as for disolving shelac), the little bit of
methanol doesn't really matter. If memory serves, the addition of the
methanol also aids in the removal of the last bits of water during the
distilation process.

It's not always methanol. The bottle of Ace brand denatured alcohol is
denatured with both methanol and MEK, it's more poisonous than it
needs to be. I think the Kleen Strip brand is the one that has only
methanol to denature it.

What's sold in most drugstores as "rubbing alcohol" is isopropanol
(typically 70%, the rest is water). To the best of my knowlege, it's
not toxic, at least in small quantities. The reason it's sold in drug
stores is because it evaporates fast, so it makes a great cooling
rubdown.

Isopropyl rubbing alcohol can also come in 91% pure in the drugstore,
this is what I always buy since it's better for sterilizing things
than 70% is, plus I use it to keep the bubbles out of bar top epoxy
varnish. I've heard you can use isopropyl for shellac but it dries
slower and stays gummier longer (thus allowing more dust to settle on
it). Ethyl alcohol is also sold as 'rubbing alcohol', which I believe
is also a form of denatured ethanol. The label I read at CVS last
night had all sorts of odd ingredients in it other than ethyl alcohol,
in fact it looked /more/ poisonous than woodworking denatured stuff.

On 15 Dec 2004 14:25:02 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Andy Dingley notes:

When I can get hold of it (friends in the lab trade) I use pure
lab-grade ethanol. This is safer because of not having the methanol in
it, and it's much more pleasant to use as there's no pyridine. However
the paperwork to get it is frightening, and the suppliers don't regard
wood finishing as a suitable cause for supplying it.

Jeez. I just buy whatever the paint store has in stock. If it came down to it,
I could drive a few miles--Franklin, one county over is supposed to be one of
the centers of the bootleg booze production in the South. Pick up some second
run distilled stuff at nearly 200 proof. That should do 'er.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

Here in the US you can just pick up some Everclear at the liquor
store. Expensive as a solvent for shellac, but it gives great results.

--RC

Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent

Charlie Self wrote:

My distant relations have NO idea what you're talking about.

Just don't buy that bridge they keep trying to sell you.

Sell? That would be illegal. They GIVE the stuff away.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Charlie Self wrote:

If I could find Everclear locally I'd be using it, just for the
convenience - even with the taxes on it.

Next time you hit Richmond or some other semi-Southern city, check out the
local ABC store. They'll have Everclear, though possibly not by that name.

Not anymore, I don't think. Could just be local, but I'm fairly sure it has
been banned statewide. After too many dumbass college students
accidentally committed suicide.

Nasty stuff to drink by itself, though, unless you're already ripped.
IIRC, most of it goes into punch bowls for the unwary, often at church
picnics.



None for me, thanks. I get pretty well hammered from three **** water
American beers. I think if I ever had a shot of Everclear, I'd go straight
for the coma.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Xane T. wrote:

It's not always methanol. The bottle of Ace brand denatured alcohol is
denatured with both methanol and MEK, it's more poisonous than it
needs to be. I think the Kleen Strip brand is the one that has only
methanol to denature it.

Urk! What does MEK do to shellac? Nothing good, I would imagine.

That's vile stuff, but it sure is great for bonding styrene.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Charlie Self wrote:

name. By the 4th ounce or so, you thought you'd been hit by lightning. If
you took another ounce, you woke up wishing you would BE hit by lightning.

And the people who took the 5th ounce ended up in the mortuary. Good ol'
corn squeezin's.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

rcook5 notes:

Jeez. I just buy whatever the paint store has in stock. If it came down to
it,
I could drive a few miles--Franklin, one county over is supposed to be one
of
the centers of the bootleg booze production in the South. Pick up some
second
run distilled stuff at nearly 200 proof. That should do 'er.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir
Winston
Churchill

Here in the US you can just pick up some Everclear at the liquor
store. Expensive as a solvent for shellac, but it gives great results.

Yes, well when you do that, you're paying the Feds the current $44 or whatever
per gallon in booze tax.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston
Churchill

The college students can steal the 95% from Organic lab, like we did. They
don't need to pay the money. Gallon of it, can each of whatever Hi-C
juices were on the shelf to make up a 5-gallon Jerrycan worth, and off to
the dunes....

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Charlie Self wrote:

If I could find Everclear locally I'd be using it, just for the
convenience - even with the taxes on it.

Next time you hit Richmond or some other semi-Southern city, check out
the
local ABC store. They'll have Everclear, though possibly not by that
name.

Not anymore, I don't think. Could just be local, but I'm fairly sure it
has
been banned statewide. After too many dumbass college students
accidentally committed suicide.

Charlie Self wrote:

rcook5 notes:

Jeez. I just buy whatever the paint store has in stock. If it came down
to
it,
I could drive a few miles--Franklin, one county over is supposed to be
one
of
the centers of the bootleg booze production in the South. Pick up some
second
run distilled stuff at nearly 200 proof. That should do 'er.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir
Winston
Churchill

Here in the US you can just pick up some Everclear at the liquor
store. Expensive as a solvent for shellac, but it gives great results.

Yes, well when you do that, you're paying the Feds the current $44 or
whatever per gallon in booze tax.

I'm curious--anybody have any experiences to relate with Behlen's "Behkol",
which they sell as purpose-made for dissolving shellac flakes and which
appears to be ethanol denatured with isobutanol instead of methanol. They
charge a good deal more for it than one pays for regular denatured alcohol.

Charlie Self
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir
Winston Churchill

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

George wrote:
The college students can steal the 95% from Organic lab, like we did.


Unless it was spectrophotometric grade, which would be very expensive,
the other 5% might have included benzene.

For that matter, there are denatured alcohols sold for rubbing alcohol
and shellac thinner that are 95% ethanol.

--

FF

Xane T. wrote:
On 15 Dec 2004 13:12:17 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

Denatured Alcohol is absolute ethanol with a little methanol added
to
it, to intentionally make it unfit to drink. Since you can't drink
it, the government isn't interested in taxing or controlling it, and
it's much more widely available than absolute. For most uses as an
industrial solvent (such as for disolving shelac), the little bit of
methanol doesn't really matter. If memory serves, the addition of
the
methanol also aids in the removal of the last bits of water during
the
distilation process.

It's not always methanol. The bottle of Ace brand denatured alcohol
is
denatured with both methanol and MEK, it's more poisonous than it
needs to be. I think the Kleen Strip brand is the one that has only
methanol to denature it.

ISTR that the brand with "SLX" on the label was denatured with methanol

only. I avoid anything with ketones because they are quite toxic as
well as more noisome. At one time sulphuric acid was used as a
denaturant. I remember an episode of "Untouchables" with Robert
Stack as Eliot Ness in which the villian was a chemist who had found
a way to 'renature' denatured alcohol. Assuming there was _some_
historical basis for that episode this may have been a referance
to using sulphuric acid as a denaturant.


What's sold in most drugstores as "rubbing alcohol" is isopropanol
(typically 70%, the rest is water). To the best of my knowlege,
it's
not toxic, at least in small quantities. The reason it's sold in
drug
stores is because it evaporates fast, so it makes a great cooling
rubdown.


All alcohols are toxic. Ethanol is just the least toxic, well maybe
some of the fancy alcohols used in mouthwash might be less toxic than
ethanol but I doubt it. Isopropynol is plenty toxic, you just do not
absorb enough through occaisional exposure to unbroken skin to be a
concern. I _think_ methanol is better absorbed through the skin, but
is less toxic when ethanol is also present, oddly enough.

In fact I'm pretty sure that all organic solvents and almost all
organic liquids, excepting some oils, are toxic. Certainly all
the common ones are *quite* toxic.

... Ethyl alcohol is also sold as 'rubbing alcohol', which I believe
is also a form of denatured ethanol. The label I read at CVS last
night had all sorts of odd ingredients in it other than ethyl
alcohol,
in fact it looked /more/ poisonous than woodworking denatured stuff.

Quite often the ethyl alcohol (aka ethanol, aka grain alcohol) sold
for rubbing alcohol is denatured with methanol just like the denatured
alcohol sold for shellac thinner. The other stuff on the label may
well have been added to enhance it's effect when used for, well,
rubbing, or whatever you're supposed to do with it.

--

FF

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:33 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 13 Dec 2004 11:31:38 -0800, wrote:

Methylated Spirits, methyl alcohol, methanol, and wood alcohol,
are all the same thing.

snip

Filter the meths through a hollowed out half loaf of bread.
Colour gone, pyride gone. Drinkable.
Ask any seasoned hobo. A bottle of meths is a lot cheaper than
anything in the bottle store.