Over the course of the past few months I have initiated a number of
threads about Politics.

In some cases I just sailed off the paper airplane and watched what
happened.

In other instances I have provided interlinear encouragement to keep
the thread active.

Th Debil made me do it.

During the same compass of time I have started threads that were
solely about WoodDorking.

While the Political threads bloomed and branched, in sum total
creating over a thousand responses - the WoodDorking threads yielded
less than a hundred.



We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

From November of 1994 until three months ago, I said nary a word about
Politics on the Wreck.

On the odd instance that I referred to it at all, it was with
disapprobation.

Still, we stewed in the discussions from time to time and all of us
were culpable.


Do I think that the Wreck should be "Politics Free"? Of course not.
That would be unnatural - and I have always found the Wreck to be the
most natural realm of public discourse - given that its main intent is
that of WoodDorking.


I have heard the Wreck described as a neigborhood tavern, mostly
frequented by WoodDorkers.

I have seen it described as a simulacrum of a country store, with a
fine pot-bellied stove, around which we all gather to spin our tales
and trade information - mostly about WoodDorking.


Most of us had Mommas that educated us to the degree that we would not
introduce The Big Three into conversations with either strangers or
friends - Sex, Religion, and Politics. Lordy, were we not paying
attention?


Y'all do what you want - my personal experiment with talking Politics
on the Wreck is over.


You have my personal pledge that I will not initiate, nor will I
respond to any thread that has to do with Politics.


However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.

MHO

YMMV





Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

Yabbut, wreckers engaged in a political discussion, even a heated one, is
one thing, ... the bickering with trolls who have never posted an on topic
message is something else entirely.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/04/04

....we're in to that season where not much wood to fashion (seems to lend
itself to winter time when not much else to do unless you are a Packer fan
and you may want to take out your frustrations on a piece of stock now),
deer season ain't open yet unless you want to climb a tree with a bow and
arrow, and we're coming up on a prez election...give it a few weeks and all
this will go away and we can return to the things that matter.

all IMHO of course


"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

Yabbut, wreckers engaged in a political discussion, even a heated one, is
one thing, ... the bickering with trolls who have never posted an on topic
message is something else entirely.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/04/04

Tom Watson wrote:

However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.

I would vote for having sex with politicians, but it's against my religion.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

[upper snip]
However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.
[lower snip]


I entirely agree (with all you said actually) because I need more attention in
this group as a learner, than most people care to give. Sometimes it is really
a bummer about that. Too many people that can offer professional advice
simply ignore me. Drat!

Alex

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...


Y'all do what you want - my personal experiment with talking Politics
on the Wreck is over.


Quoting Pogo seems apropos. "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Or maybe Euripides has a more accurate assessment of what's going on?

I adjusted my table saw today after moving it to a new house. It had moved
approx 0.030" out of square. With Mr.Bennet's fancy tool I managed to get
the miter slot to within 0.5 though front to back (of the blade) and the
fence to within 1.5 thou, falling wider at the back of the blade. Took all
of about ten minutes....damn I like that TS Aligner Jr!

Now...it's onto the jointer.

Crap...did I just start another Bennet thread?

I also had to cut my Fine woodworking pipe-clamp bench from it's original 8'
to a new 5' in order to fit it in the shop. In so doing I removed the long
clamps as I never used them anyways and I installed a knock off or a Record
7" vise that I picked up for $30 CDN.... The bench seems quite happy, I
managed to keep the planing bean and it actually went together again like it
was meant to be. Imagine that.

Yesterday I got together with a couple of other guys and we milled a
domestic cherry using an Alaskan chain-sawmill. That was cool and enjoyable,
but what's cooler. is the 12/4 thick 16" wide 7' long slab I have in my
carport...that cost $0. I have three years to think of a project for it.
Also have some very nice pieces of spalted cottonwood...thinking boxes
perhaps?

Had a friend pick up some Bessey 24" clamps for $25 each...Canadian. Yup,
they're new. Seems HD up here is trading brands and were blowing them out.
He went store-to-store-to store and bought 34 of them on spec. They're all
gone now...

I asked my wife to go out and get some wood glue the other day and she came
back with Elmer's (I like Titebond II). I groaned but tried it...and I think
I like it!

night Tom

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
Over the course of the past few months I have initiated a number of
threads about Politics.

In some cases I just sailed off the paper airplane and watched what
happened.

In other instances I have provided interlinear encouragement to keep
the thread active.

Th Debil made me do it.

During the same compass of time I have started threads that were
solely about WoodDorking.

While the Political threads bloomed and branched, in sum total
creating over a thousand responses - the WoodDorking threads yielded
less than a hundred.



We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

From November of 1994 until three months ago, I said nary a word about
Politics on the Wreck.

On the odd instance that I referred to it at all, it was with
disapprobation.

Still, we stewed in the discussions from time to time and all of us
were culpable.


Do I think that the Wreck should be "Politics Free"? Of course not.
That would be unnatural - and I have always found the Wreck to be the
most natural realm of public discourse - given that its main intent is
that of WoodDorking.


I have heard the Wreck described as a neigborhood tavern, mostly
frequented by WoodDorkers.

I have seen it described as a simulacrum of a country store, with a
fine pot-bellied stove, around which we all gather to spin our tales
and trade information - mostly about WoodDorking.


Most of us had Mommas that educated us to the degree that we would not
introduce The Big Three into conversations with either strangers or
friends - Sex, Religion, and Politics. Lordy, were we not paying
attention?


Y'all do what you want - my personal experiment with talking Politics
on the Wreck is over.


You have my personal pledge that I will not initiate, nor will I
respond to any thread that has to do with Politics.


However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.

MHO

YMMV





Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:31:43 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:


"Tom Watson" wrote in message

We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

Yabbut, wreckers engaged in a political discussion, even a heated one, is
one thing, ... the bickering with trolls who have never posted an on topic
message is something else entirely.

Some of us don't know the difference. In a few days of perusing this
group my KF's over a hundred, probably a few non-trolls in there,
anyone in a long discussion of politics is a candidate, I don't even
read the threads.

C'est la vie.

Silvan responds:

Tom Watson wrote:

However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.

I would vote for having sex with politicians, but it's against my religion.

Michael, Michael. It doesn't work that way. Think of the reverse. You get
screwed instead.

Charlie Self
"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind
simultaneously, and accepting both of them." George Orwell

Just an observation or two. For the most part, the OT political threads have been anti GWB in nature. Very few if any were startet
as an attack against the Democratic challenger. In the recent past most have come from individuals that do not post or respond to
on topic threads. I am guilty of reacting to the OT posts that ARE designed to ellicit a reaction. It has been demonstrated that,
for example, Florida Patriot, posts , ducks and runs.

I have decided, therefore, to do my best ignore all OT threads started by FP, et al. If we all do that then perhaps the trolls will
get tired and go away.

--
Al Reid

How will I know when I get there...
If I don't know where I'm going?

Al Reid responds:

I have decided, therefore, to do my best ignore all OT threads started by FP,
et al. If we all do that then perhaps the trolls will
get tired and go away.

You don't even have to ignore them. Just filter out anyone with a point with
which you disagree. Saves a a lot of tensing up, I'm told.

Charlie Self
"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind
simultaneously, and accepting both of them." George Orwell

Tom Watson said:

snip
While the Political threads bloomed and branched, in sum total
creating over a thousand responses - the WoodDorking threads yielded
less than a hundred.
snip
We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.
snip
However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.

I hear ya, Buddy!
I don't bother with filters, and occasionally look in on some of the
OT posts. But it IS amazing how some of these things just won't die!

I watch the pleas for help from relative newbies go unnoticed, as the
political dead-horse gets pummeled into pulp. Granted, many of the
questions could be answered by DAGS - but that removes the personal
touch and assurance that many novices find comforting. Perhaps you/we
are just jaded and tire of answering the same questions time and again
or perhaps we're just out of new/interesting ideas. I haven't seen an
innovative thread on finishing or technique in ages - and I come here
to glean knowledge on that type of thing!

I chalk it up to the fact that many people are deeply concerned at the
direction the country, and indeed the world, is headed and this is
their way of blowing off steam.

Personally, I'll be glad when it's all over.
(Not life, just politics...the other will come soon enough!)

P.S.- All the candidates blow - Gen. George Hammond for President!


Greg G.

Tom:
I am one of those who have flamed recent political postings. But I do agree
that we good ole boys and girls should digress into other topics from time
to time. This is a social group and groupies digress.

What I do oppose is single individuals that drop political or similar OT
posting in mass. We have one, in particular, that is posting 2-3 at a time
and this makes sifting through the good stuff more difficult.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

Yabbut, wreckers engaged in a political discussion, even a heated one, is
one thing, ... the bickering with trolls who have never posted an on topic
message is something else entirely.


Exactly. If you actually contribute to the wood working subject, I find no
harm. If all you want to do is post OT go some where else.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:13:08 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:
Over the course of the past few months I have initiated a number of
threads about Politics.

....and water is wet.

In some cases I just sailed off the paper airplane and watched what
happened.

So you're a troll then, intentionally winding people up to watch the
show. Good to know. plonk.

Is it any wonder that on 24 August 2004 I posted the following (and my
sentiment remains unchanged):

Before anyone jumps me for my hypocrisy for posting in two threads
currently running on the wreck, let me say that I regret my
participation in those threads, but solely because I don't believe
these threads belong here, whether they are labeled "Off Topic" or
not. Justifying a post simply by labeling it "Off Topic" is akin to
qualifying a racial or other odious slur by following it up with "just
kidding." It's still odious and it's wrong.

Here's why I hate the political threads. I have spent a number of
years on the wreck. I participate both here and on other woodworking
fora on the internet on a regular basis. I have personally met dozens
of fellow woodworkers from all over the country; a feat unthinkable
before the 'net. Virtually all of the people that I've met have been
people that I would be comfortable with in my house. I would enjoy
conversing with them about woodworking and other topics of mutual
interest.

When two (or more) people sit face to face it is almost unheard of for
one of them to lean forward and say something anathema to the other's
point of view; political, religious, or otherwise. I can't imagine
someone doing that. It would be rude. It would be the height of
inappropriate behavior. It would violate all rules of society.

Of all of the people I've met as described, I can honestly say I don't
know the political inclinations of any of them. I didn't ask; they
didn't tell. I don't want to know. And apparently they felt the same,
because at the end of the day, they had not asked, either. That's not
to say I don't have some inklings or suspicions, but I've not wanted
to follow up to confirm.

The reason for that is I've seen too much lying, muckraking,
prevarication, misinformation, mudslinging, unbelievable distortion of
facts, all to political ends, for me to respect anyone that I believe
is embracing those techniques and using them to further their
particular ends. And I don't want to not respect the people I've
become friends with. It hurts me to see someone whom I appreciate for
their knowledge and experience in a particular area of woodworking
(the reason I'm here) line up on the other side of what I believe.

In fact, I haven't been able to help but develop a list of wreckers
who I wouldn't share a broken tool with, much less pleasant discourse;
all because they couldn't contain their opinions on subjects that
shouldn't be aired in a common interest forum for which those subjects
would be off-topic.

Unfortunately, the anonymity behind which all who choose to can hide
on the internet removes the constraints with which society holds a
person with regard to his behavior.

Moreover, typing vitriol is virtually risk free as opposed to spewing
it in person at the risk of a bloody nose. It's no surprise to me that
we see so much of it on the internet. I'm not saying there's no place
for it on the 'net; I know of at least a couple of "flame" newsgroups
and several political ones where that is the appropriate medium.

I just think that the wreck is not one of them, and I don't want to
find out about my friends' feet of clay. And that works across the
spectrum; I'm sure there must be someone out there who is embarrassed
about the way they've learned I feel.

Anyway, I expressed regret about joining the mob and its mentality and
I meant it. And here is my pledge. No more will I engage in political
(or other divisive) threads. It is not good for me, it is not good for
my friends, it is not good for the wreck. The opinions expressed
aren't going to change anyone's mind; it's naive for anyone to think
so. That probably includes this one.



- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

If your criteria is to provoke a lot of responses then political posts
are a good method. However, I would note that there are plenty
political newsgroups....

I acheive my political catharsis though a blog rather than polluting a
woodworking group: http://www.politicalparables.blogspot.com/ To post
off-topic material to a news group is a form of spam. In fact this
response and the thread to which it belongs is spam.

If your intention is to promote and foster woodworking discussions
then well-written informative on-topic post is the way to go. Not
having the clutter of off-topic post makes perusing the newsgroup for
woodworking stuff a much more pleasurable experience.

The woodworkers I work with have stopped visiting rec.woodworking
because of the political posts. They've found more informative
moderated newsgroups elsewhere -- wood central, for example.

I'm glad you've pledged not to experiment with politics on the wreck.
I wish many more would follow your exampe. Thanks.

Let's get back to talking chisels, planes, routers, table saws,
finishes, dovetails, mortise and tenon, etc. Now wonder how many times
this e-mail will show up because someone does a search on dovetails?
What a waste that this one would show up!


Tom Watson wrote in message . ..
Over the course of the past few months I have initiated a number of
threads about Politics.

In some cases I just sailed off the paper airplane and watched what
happened.

In other instances I have provided interlinear encouragement to keep
the thread active.

Th Debil made me do it.

During the same compass of time I have started threads that were
solely about WoodDorking.

While the Political threads bloomed and branched, in sum total
creating over a thousand responses - the WoodDorking threads yielded
less than a hundred.



We pretend, us Wreckers, to despise the intercession of the Politic -
yet we jump all over it like a starving dog on a meatwagon.

We lie to ourselves.

From November of 1994 until three months ago, I said nary a word about
Politics on the Wreck.

On the odd instance that I referred to it at all, it was with
disapprobation.

Still, we stewed in the discussions from time to time and all of us
were culpable.


Do I think that the Wreck should be "Politics Free"? Of course not.
That would be unnatural - and I have always found the Wreck to be the
most natural realm of public discourse - given that its main intent is
that of WoodDorking.


I have heard the Wreck described as a neigborhood tavern, mostly
frequented by WoodDorkers.

I have seen it described as a simulacrum of a country store, with a
fine pot-bellied stove, around which we all gather to spin our tales
and trade information - mostly about WoodDorking.


Most of us had Mommas that educated us to the degree that we would not
introduce The Big Three into conversations with either strangers or
friends - Sex, Religion, and Politics. Lordy, were we not paying
attention?


Y'all do what you want - my personal experiment with talking Politics
on the Wreck is over.


You have my personal pledge that I will not initiate, nor will I
respond to any thread that has to do with Politics.


However, it would be nice, if the next time that someone starts a
thread about Design, or Joinery, or Finishing - that the Group, as a
whole, showed it the same level of involvement that has heretofore
been resrved for Politics, or Religion, or Sex.

MHO

YMMV





Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

"LRod" wrote in message
...

Is it any wonder that on 24 August 2004 I posted the following (and my

snip of thoughtful thoughts

Well said, LRod. I don't mind OT discussion of most subjects, but many of
us "Wreckers" are not from the US, and the subject of your presidential
elections are of little interest to us. If, as they say, when America
catches a cold, then the rest of the western world sneezes, perhaps we
*ought* to be interested. But I really can't get worked up about something
in which I cannot participate and have no possibility of influencing.

For those guys who simply *have* to inflict their views on a largely
uncaring world, then please put the word "Political" in your subject so the
rest of us can filter it out. I've already got KkEeRrRrYy and BbUuSsHh in
my Newsproxy datfile, with splendid impartiality. In return, I promise not
to inflict those assholes Blair and Howard (who?????) on you guys.

OWWR:

Have a look at the luthiers' section in Frets.com. Particularly the bits on
repairing/restoring finishes, gluing etc. OK, it's about guitars and
mandolins etc, but a lot of it reads right across to cabinet-making. It's a
great couple of evenings' worth of reading - the man gives away more tricks
of the trade than you can shake a ****ty stick at. Go on, have a treat -
you owe it to yourself after all this political ranting...

Cheers,

Frank


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.775 / Virus Database: 522 - Release Date: 08/10/2004

If your intention is to promote and foster woodworking discussions
then well-written informative on-topic post is the way to go. Not
having the clutter of off-topic post makes perusing the newsgroup for
woodworking stuff a much more pleasurable experience.

The woodworkers I work with have stopped visiting rec.woodworking
because of the political posts. They've found more informative
moderated newsgroups elsewhere -- wood central, for example.

I'm glad you've pledged not to experiment with politics on the wreck.
I wish many more would follow your exampe. Thanks.

Let's get back to talking chisels, planes, routers, table saws,
finishes, dovetails, mortise and tenon, etc. Now wonder how many times
this e-mail will show up because someone does a search on dovetails?
What a waste that this one would show up!
less than a hundred.

Yeah, I'm done too. Nobody can change anybody else's mind anyway.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

So you're a troll then, intentionally winding people up to watch the
show. Good to know. plonk.

Yeahbut - a really eloquent, learned one...

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message gone now...

I asked my wife to go out and get some wood glue the other day and she came
back with Elmer's (I like Titebond II). I groaned but tried it...and I think
I like it!

Elmer's has a longer open time than Titebond, so it is better for
complex glue-ups. Sounds like a SWMBO gloat.

"Alex Feldman" wrote in message
om...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message gone now...

I asked my wife to go out and get some wood glue the other day and she
came
back with Elmer's (I like Titebond II). I groaned but tried it...and I
think
I like it!

Elmer's has a longer open time than Titebond, so it is better for
complex glue-ups. Sounds like a SWMBO gloat.

You better clarify which Elmer's you are talking about. Elmer's ProBond has
a short open time compared to Titebond II.

donno what one it is.... I think the bottle said sumthin' about "safe for
all primary grades" on it....

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"Alex Feldman" wrote in message
om...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message gone now...

I asked my wife to go out and get some wood glue the other day and she
came
back with Elmer's (I like Titebond II). I groaned but tried it...and I
think
I like it!

Elmer's has a longer open time than Titebond, so it is better for
complex glue-ups. Sounds like a SWMBO gloat.

You better clarify which Elmer's you are talking about. Elmer's ProBond
has
a short open time compared to Titebond II.

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
news:iOGbd.4067$cr4.1366@edtnps84...
donno what one it is.... I think the bottle said sumthin' about "safe for
all primary grades" on it....

Rob


LOL Elmer's Pro Bond is in a round bottle about 2.5" in diameter and 7
inches tall. Big cap for easy refilling and has a large orange cone shaped
cap.

(that's what it is, I'm just havin' a little fun. Shhhh...!)

Rob

--


http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Leon" wrote in message
news

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
news:iOGbd.4067$cr4.1366@edtnps84...
donno what one it is.... I think the bottle said sumthin' about "safe
for
all primary grades" on it....

Rob


LOL Elmer's Pro Bond is in a round bottle about 2.5" in diameter and 7
inches tall. Big cap for easy refilling and has a large orange cone
shaped
cap.

On 14 Oct 2004 14:46:19 -0700, (Alex Feldman)
wrote:

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message gone now...

I asked my wife to go out and get some wood glue the other day and she came
back with Elmer's (I like Titebond II). I groaned but tried it...and I think
I like it!

Elmer's has a longer open time than Titebond, so it is better for
complex glue-ups. Sounds like a SWMBO gloat.

Is it significantly (i.e, noticeably) longer? Especially here in the dry
desert, longer open times would be a really good thing. Strength seem to
be the same as titebond?

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
news:AVGbd.4068$cr4.1888@edtnps84...
(that's what it is, I'm just havin' a little fun. Shhhh...!)

Rob


............o.............k.................. That hook was pretty sharp..
;~)

On 13 Oct 2004 16:22:39 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

So you're a troll then, intentionally winding people up to watch the
show. Good to know. plonk.

Oh, my - and Socrates along with me, I suppose.



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:45:43 -0400, Tom Watson
calmly ranted:

On 13 Oct 2004 16:22:39 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

So you're a troll then, intentionally winding people up to watch the
show. Good to know. plonk.

Oh, my - and Socrates along with me, I suppose.

Hey, leave soCrates out of the plonkin' bidness, will ya?


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