On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 3:30 AM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:21 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 2:33 PM, Leon wrote:

What wind chill really does is cool things down faster to what the
actual temperature is rather than if there was no wind at all.

If the thing being affected by the wind has liquid water on it, the wind
will cause the water to evaporate, causing it to cool even below the
ambient temperature. That's how evaporative (swamp) coolers work.
Before cars had air conditioners, my dad had a canvas water bag he would
hang in front of the car's radiator. As he drove down the road, the
water would slowly seep through the sides of the bag, and the wind would
evaporate the water from the surface and cool the water in the bag.

But wind chill is only a human "touchy feeley" thing. So most people
don't douse themselves with water as they get ready to go out into the
cold wind.

But people do perspire, and if perspiring skin is exposed to the wind,
the resulting evaporation will cool the person off. It's an actual
cooling effect, and under the right conditions can cool the skin below
the ambient air temperature.




Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 23:54:05 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/24/2015 10:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


Can't say I really love winter, and for sure - I'm really tired of
the zero and sub-zero temperatures this year, but having said that,
my standard outer wear for this kind of weather is a hooded, zip up
sweatshirt and a windbreaker.(just a standard spring/fall weight
windbreaker). I'm just getting tired of having to wear it in the
damned living room...

I'm thankful for heated seats and remote starters. My car has an
excellent heater at -15 too.

Funny you should mention that. My wife and I were just comparing the warm
up times of our two cars. My '06 Sonata will start to throw warm air within
less than a mile of driving, from a cold start in the garage. Her '10 Forte
takes 5 or 6 miles down the road to begin to throw heat. By the time I'm
1.5 miles down the road I can turn the blower on full and be getting full
blown heat - she's still shivering in her car. I have a 6 cylinder in my
Sonata and she has a 4 in her Forte - you'd think hers would warm up
quicker, but that's not the case.

My '13 F150 doesn't get warm until I'm half way home (18mi). I don't
live in Vermont anymore, either. It doesn't get cold here in GA but
my truck doesn't want to get warm. Gotta get it into the shop (gotta
be a bad thermostat - still under warranty).

Neither of us have heated seats - well,
to be honest, she has a pretty hot seat, but that's a different matter...
She does have remote start though, so she gets to cheat and warm the car up
before leaving.

I suppose you keep her remote handy. ;-)

Remote starters were illegal in VT, or more accurately, using them was
illegal. Just more evidence that the state is nuts.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:33:00 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 3:30 AM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:21 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 2:33 PM, Leon wrote:

What wind chill really does is cool things down faster to what the
actual temperature is rather than if there was no wind at all.

If the thing being affected by the wind has liquid water on it, the wind
will cause the water to evaporate, causing it to cool even below the
ambient temperature. That's how evaporative (swamp) coolers work.
Before cars had air conditioners, my dad had a canvas water bag he would
hang in front of the car's radiator. As he drove down the road, the
water would slowly seep through the sides of the bag, and the wind would
evaporate the water from the surface and cool the water in the bag.

But wind chill is only a human "touchy feeley" thing. So most people
don't douse themselves with water as they get ready to go out into the
cold wind.

But people do perspire, and if perspiring skin is exposed to the wind,
the resulting evaporation will cool the person off. It's an actual
cooling effect, and under the right conditions can cool the skin below
the ambient air temperature.




Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

Having lived in Vermont for almost 15 years, I can say with reasonable
confidence that you do *not* want be sweating while shoveling snow, or
anything else when it's well below zero. There is a reason one
dresses in layers and it's not because layers are somehow warmer.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

People perspire all the time including in winter when they're wearing
winter clothing.

It sounds like you're talking about visible sweat.

On 2/25/2015 8:37 PM, wrote:


Remote starters were illegal in VT, or more accurately, using them was
illegal. Just more evidence that the state is nuts.


They'd have to find me first. Some places have laws against leaving a
car running with the keys in it, but remote starter lock the doors and
unless you hit the button, the engine will die when you hit the brake pedal.

It does contribute to global warming and the heartbreak of psoriasis
though.

Markem wrote:


Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

I have to take respectful exception to that comment. I think a lot of
what's being said here is that we all grew up playing out in the cold and
snow - long before the notion of wind chill became popular, and we survived
it just fine. Now - today - wind chill is bantered about as if it is some
plague upon mankind. Look - we all work up a sweat doing hard work outside
in the wintertime - we don't die from that effort. Too much adoo about
nothing...

--

-Mike-

Wind Chill is based on temp and wind.

The equivalent formula in US customary units is:

T_wc=35.74 + 0.6215*T_a - 35.75*V^{+0.16} + 0.4275 T_a*V^{+0.16}

where
T_wc is the wind chill index, based on the Fahrenheit scale,
T_a is the air temperature, measured in °F, and
V is the wind speed, in mph.

Martin

On 2/24/2015 10:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote:


"Wind chill" has nothing to do with evaporation, however. There is
very little water on the surface of the skin in the Winter (my dry
skin is evidence ;-). OTOH, any evaporation won't just make it feel
colder it will *make* it colder.

Only to a point though. Wind chill is commonly reported to be 20 degrees
colder than ambient this time of year. Evaporation is not going to lower
temperatures that much when the air is this cold. Cold air does not hold
moisture like warm air does, so evaporation is not the same factor that it
can be in warmer air.

wrote:


My '13 F150 doesn't get warm until I'm half way home (18mi). I don't
live in Vermont anymore, either. It doesn't get cold here in GA but
my truck doesn't want to get warm. Gotta get it into the shop (gotta
be a bad thermostat - still under warranty).


My plow truck - which is now just a yard vehicle, has a 350 in it. Great
motor that just runs forever, can be built to make more power than God ever
thought was necessary, but is a cast iron monster that takes nothing less
than 20 minute of idle time to even think about throwing warm air out of the
vents. And after that - another 20 minutes before you can really feel that
warm air.

--

-Mike-

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:02:33 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Markem wrote:


Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

I have to take respectful exception to that comment. I think a lot of
what's being said here is that we all grew up playing out in the cold and
snow - long before the notion of wind chill became popular, and we survived
it just fine. Now - today - wind chill is bantered about as if it is some
plague upon mankind. Look - we all work up a sweat doing hard work outside
in the wintertime - we don't die from that effort. Too much adoo about
nothing...

But you had shelter to dry off and warm up, survival in cold weather
with out a house to warm up in is about not getting wet at all.

On 2/25/2015 7:33 PM, Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 3:30 AM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:21 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 2:33 PM, Leon wrote:

What wind chill really does is cool things down faster to what the
actual temperature is rather than if there was no wind at all.

If the thing being affected by the wind has liquid water on it, the wind
will cause the water to evaporate, causing it to cool even below the
ambient temperature. That's how evaporative (swamp) coolers work.
Before cars had air conditioners, my dad had a canvas water bag he would
hang in front of the car's radiator. As he drove down the road, the
water would slowly seep through the sides of the bag, and the wind would
evaporate the water from the surface and cool the water in the bag.

But wind chill is only a human "touchy feeley" thing. So most people
don't douse themselves with water as they get ready to go out into the
cold wind.

But people do perspire, and if perspiring skin is exposed to the wind,
the resulting evaporation will cool the person off. It's an actual
cooling effect, and under the right conditions can cool the skin below
the ambient air temperature.




Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.


But if you are sweating it will be inside your clothing not while you
are butt naked with skin underexposed to the wind.

And you are not going to freeze to death even if you were butt naked in
40 degree weather with a wind chill of 28 degrees.

On 2/25/2015 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

People perspire all the time including in winter when they're wearing
winter clothing.

It sounds like you're talking about visible sweat.



Absolutely people sweat in winter clothing but that sweat is not going
to evaporate from the wind if it is inside your clothing and is not
exposed to wind.

I understand that wind will speed evaporation but only if the wind comes
in contact with the sweat. If your skin is exposed directly to freezing
weather it is not going to be sweating.

On 2/26/2015 10:37 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire.

Leon, it's easy to perspire in extreme cold, simply by working too hard.

I've hunted deer and elk at -30C with -45 wind chill, and when you're
plowing through snow drifts and brush, overheating and starting to
sweat is a very real concern.

I worry more about being too warm in extreme than I do about freezing.
A lot more.


But you are sweating under your protective clothing, NO?

OK, this has gone completely off track.

Wind chill does not lower the temperature. Wind does slightly lower the
skin surface temperature, if sweaty or wet, if the skin is "not"
protected by clothing. If the wet skin is protected by clothing,,,,, it
is protected by the clothing, and not exposed to the wind.

Basically if you are warm enough to be sweating the cold is not going to
freeze you because you are sweating. You sweat because you are
overheated. Right?

Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:02:33 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Markem wrote:


Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not
perspire, cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the
point of soaking your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

I have to take respectful exception to that comment. I think a lot
of what's being said here is that we all grew up playing out in the
cold and snow - long before the notion of wind chill became popular,
and we survived it just fine. Now - today - wind chill is bantered
about as if it is some plague upon mankind. Look - we all work up a
sweat doing hard work outside in the wintertime - we don't die from
that effort. Too much adoo about nothing...

But you had shelter to dry off and warm up, survival in cold weather
with out a house to warm up in is about not getting wet at all.

Come on Mark - people still have places to go into and get out of the
elements. That is no different today than it was when we were coming up.
The fact is that we would spend hours of a day outside in those temperatures
and look - we are still here to talk about it today. Your comment suggests
something different exists today, and I'm going to call Bull**** on that
thought.

If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures and
wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do is more
couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to mention that
today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a bus stop because
stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet to pick up the darlings at
their own mailbox. They are not even experiencing the same degree of
exposure that we did as kids. It has nothing at all to do with the
availablitly of a warm house nearby.

Sorry - I cannot agree with your position on this. We are continuing to
pussify our society and this (IMHO) is just one more example of it.

--

-Mike-

Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire.

Leon, it's easy to perspire in extreme cold, simply by working too
hard.

I've hunted deer and elk at -30C with -45 wind chill, and when you're
plowing through snow drifts and brush, overheating and starting to
sweat is a very real concern.


But Dave - that is such a different thing! You knew that exertion was going
to result in sweat and what the penalty for that would be. That is quite
different from the exagerated, overly hyped up reporting of today's
weatherman. Let's be honest - how many people today really put in the
physical effort in their day to day life - as they wake up at 7:00AM to
prepare for the arduous task of starting their car and heading to work, as
you or the rest of us hunters have experienced in a day out in the field.
You're interjecting a valid point - but it does not really pertain to the
discussion at hand.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Bob La Londe wrote:

FYI I did go fishing. I didn't take a jacket, and I didn't get back
until after dark. I caught fish, and I didn't need to drill no
stinking ice. LOL. I did take some ice to keep my sodas cold though.

Going out again today with a buddy of mine. We'll probably come in
after dark. I'll take a jacket, but only to cut the wind when he
lights up the big motor.

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits...



LOL.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 12:34:46 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:02:33 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Markem wrote:


Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not
perspire, cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the
point of soaking your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

I have to take respectful exception to that comment. I think a lot
of what's being said here is that we all grew up playing out in the
cold and snow - long before the notion of wind chill became popular,
and we survived it just fine. Now - today - wind chill is bantered
about as if it is some plague upon mankind. Look - we all work up a
sweat doing hard work outside in the wintertime - we don't die from
that effort. Too much adoo about nothing...

But you had shelter to dry off and warm up, survival in cold weather
with out a house to warm up in is about not getting wet at all.

Come on Mark - people still have places to go into and get out of the
elements. That is no different today than it was when we were coming up.
The fact is that we would spend hours of a day outside in those temperatures
and look - we are still here to talk about it today. Your comment suggests
something different exists today, and I'm going to call Bull**** on that
thought.

If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures and
wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do is more
couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to mention that
today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a bus stop because
stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet to pick up the darlings at
their own mailbox. They are not even experiencing the same degree of
exposure that we did as kids. It has nothing at all to do with the
availablitly of a warm house nearby.

Sorry - I cannot agree with your position on this. We are continuing to
pussify our society and this (IMHO) is just one more example of it.

To quote a Houston laywer about the weather in Houston. It is always
great 78, why would anyone go outside.

As to spend hours outside in the cold, yes and I have had the
frostbite of the toes. Camped in below zero weather too. Staying warm
in those condtion require staying dry in your under layers. That is as
it always has been.

Try reading a bit about cold weather survival. You are heading off in
an rant about society, I am talking about not getting wet when out in
the cold and staying warmer. The key is the phrase "no shelter" as to
dying from exposure, yes it takes time and no body fuel.

Markem wrote:

As to spend hours outside in the cold, yes and I have had the
frostbite of the toes. Camped in below zero weather too. Staying warm
in those condtion require staying dry in your under layers. That is as
it always has been.


Yes - it does, but there is also the element of exposure that Leon pointed
out.

Try reading a bit about cold weather survival. You are heading off in
an rant about society, I am talking about not getting wet when out in
the cold and staying warmer. The key is the phrase "no shelter" as to
dying from exposure, yes it takes time and no body fuel.

I live in an area where we commonly experience sub-zero temperatures
throughout the winter. We have to conduct our daily lives in those
temperatures - with or without windchill considerations. I'm pretty
familiar with the effects of cold temperatures - though to be fair - I've
never camped out in sub-zero temperatures. I was too much of a pussy to do
that. But - I do think we are talking about two different things here. We
do go outside and work in the wintertime doing things like shoveling off our
roof, where we do indeed sweat in our clothing. The fact that we sweat has
nothing at all to do with windchill unless we literally sweat through our
clothing and then radiant heat loss becomes a factor.

Yes - I did head off into a rant, and I'm sorry for that, but I think it is
a part of the hype that we see/hear in the weather reports today. There
seems to be more ill thought through reaction today than is validated by so
many years of past history.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:56:26 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 7:33 PM, Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 3:30 AM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:21 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 2:33 PM, Leon wrote:

What wind chill really does is cool things down faster to what the
actual temperature is rather than if there was no wind at all.

If the thing being affected by the wind has liquid water on it, the wind
will cause the water to evaporate, causing it to cool even below the
ambient temperature. That's how evaporative (swamp) coolers work.
Before cars had air conditioners, my dad had a canvas water bag he would
hang in front of the car's radiator. As he drove down the road, the
water would slowly seep through the sides of the bag, and the wind would
evaporate the water from the surface and cool the water in the bag.

But wind chill is only a human "touchy feeley" thing. So most people
don't douse themselves with water as they get ready to go out into the
cold wind.

But people do perspire, and if perspiring skin is exposed to the wind,
the resulting evaporation will cool the person off. It's an actual
cooling effect, and under the right conditions can cool the skin below
the ambient air temperature.




Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.


But if you are sweating it will be inside your clothing not while you
are butt naked with skin underexposed to the wind.

And you are not going to freeze to death even if you were butt naked in
40 degree weather with a wind chill of 28 degrees.


But you are going to be damn cold. The cops will probably show up and
take you off to get an orange jump suit.

Markem wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:56:26 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:



And you are not going to freeze to death even if you were butt naked
in 40 degree weather with a wind chill of 28 degrees.


But you are going to be damn cold. The cops will probably show up and
take you off to get an orange jump suit.

Or... the neighbor's wife is going to be telling him how much she liked the
view into your yard today...

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 12:39:20 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire.

Leon, it's easy to perspire in extreme cold, simply by working too
hard.

I've hunted deer and elk at -30C with -45 wind chill, and when you're
plowing through snow drifts and brush, overheating and starting to
sweat is a very real concern.


But Dave - that is such a different thing! You knew that exertion was going
to result in sweat and what the penalty for that would be. That is quite
different from the exagerated, overly hyped up reporting of today's
weatherman. Let's be honest - how many people today really put in the
physical effort in their day to day life - as they wake up at 7:00AM to
prepare for the arduous task of starting their car and heading to work, as
you or the rest of us hunters have experienced in a day out in the field.
You're interjecting a valid point - but it does not really pertain to the
discussion at hand.

It pertains to my point, you want to stay warm. Dave probably slows
himself in that situation and adjust his gear to allow heat to escape,
to avoid sweating.

As far as weatherman are concern "It's Entertainment".

Markem wrote:


It pertains to my point, you want to stay warm. Dave probably slows
himself in that situation and adjust his gear to allow heat to escape,
to avoid sweating.

As far as weatherman are concern "It's Entertainment".

I think we are saying the same thing but somehow missing each other.

--

-Mike-

On 2/26/2015 11:34 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:02:33 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Markem wrote:


Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not
perspire, cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the
point of soaking your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

I have to take respectful exception to that comment. I think a lot
of what's being said here is that we all grew up playing out in the
cold and snow - long before the notion of wind chill became popular,
and we survived it just fine. Now - today - wind chill is bantered
about as if it is some plague upon mankind. Look - we all work up a
sweat doing hard work outside in the wintertime - we don't die from
that effort. Too much adoo about nothing...

But you had shelter to dry off and warm up, survival in cold weather
with out a house to warm up in is about not getting wet at all.

Come on Mark - people still have places to go into and get out of the
elements. That is no different today than it was when we were coming up.
The fact is that we would spend hours of a day outside in those temperatures
and look - we are still here to talk about it today. Your comment suggests
something different exists today, and I'm going to call Bull**** on that
thought.

If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures and
wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do is more
couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to mention that
today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a bus stop because
stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet to pick up the darlings at
their own mailbox. They are not even experiencing the same degree of
exposure that we did as kids. It has nothing at all to do with the
availablitly of a warm house nearby.

Sorry - I cannot agree with your position on this. We are continuing to
pussify our society and this (IMHO) is just one more example of it.

Atta'boy Mike. ;~)

On 2/26/2015 12:11 PM, Markem wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:56:26 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 7:33 PM, Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:24:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 3:30 AM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/24/2015 8:21 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 2/24/2015 2:33 PM, Leon wrote:

What wind chill really does is cool things down faster to what the
actual temperature is rather than if there was no wind at all.

If the thing being affected by the wind has liquid water on it, the wind
will cause the water to evaporate, causing it to cool even below the
ambient temperature. That's how evaporative (swamp) coolers work.
Before cars had air conditioners, my dad had a canvas water bag he would
hang in front of the car's radiator. As he drove down the road, the
water would slowly seep through the sides of the bag, and the wind would
evaporate the water from the surface and cool the water in the bag.

But wind chill is only a human "touchy feeley" thing. So most people
don't douse themselves with water as they get ready to go out into the
cold wind.

But people do perspire, and if perspiring skin is exposed to the wind,
the resulting evaporation will cool the person off. It's an actual
cooling effect, and under the right conditions can cool the skin below
the ambient air temperature.




Jeez... ;~) Yes people perspire, but typically only when it is warm
enough that their bodies need to be cooled. If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire. They might if dressed too heavily but
then where is no wind inside all that clothing, otherwise they would not
be perspiring.

Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not perspire,
cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the point of soaking
your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.


But if you are sweating it will be inside your clothing not while you
are butt naked with skin underexposed to the wind.

And you are not going to freeze to death even if you were butt naked in
40 degree weather with a wind chill of 28 degrees.


But you are going to be damn cold. The cops will probably show up and
take you off to get an orange jump suit.

But hardly colder than 40 and then there is that, with the cops. ;~)

On 2/26/2015 3:35 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 2/26/2015 10:37 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

If they are going out in
the cold, say 40 degrees and the wind chill is 28, I seriously doubt
that anyone is going to perspire.

Leon, it's easy to perspire in extreme cold, simply by working too hard.

I've hunted deer and elk at -30C with -45 wind chill, and when you're
plowing through snow drifts and brush, overheating and starting to
sweat is a very real concern.

I worry more about being too warm in extreme than I do about freezing.
A lot more.


But you are sweating under your protective clothing, NO?

OK, this has gone completely off track.

Wind chill does not lower the temperature. Wind does slightly lower the
skin surface temperature, if sweaty or wet, if the skin is "not"
protected by clothing. If the wet skin is protected by clothing,,,,, it
is protected by the clothing, and not exposed to the wind.

Basically if you are warm enough to be sweating the cold is not going to
freeze you because you are sweating. You sweat because you are
overheated. Right?

Come live here for a couple of years and you will understand wind chill
all too well. grin

I'ma skerd I would freeze! ;~)



You are correct that it doesn't lower air temperature. It has a very
direct effect on exposed flesh and clothing that is permeable to wind.
The problem with sweating in extreme cold isn't what happens when you
sweat. It's what happens when you STOP that gets you into hypothermia.

Using temperature is deceptive, as you say. Here in Canada a few years
back they tried reporting wind chill as "watts of heat loss per square
meter of exposed flesh" but went back to the temperature equivalent
because people didn't understand the correct number.

OH MY God! More metric math to deal with.. ;~)


And I've had people swear to me that wind chill affects their car or
truck's ability to start in the winter, which is complete BS. But I
have had a car over-cool at highway speed in our winters. We use
cardboard to cover half or more of the radiator to control that. ggg


It does get cold here too. but not the extremes. I recall walking our
on our wooden deck one morning near Christmas. No rain at all but the
humidity froze and the deck was as slick as ice. It was 7F degrees.

A few years before that when I was still working automotive we had
vehicles being towed in for overheating. The coolant was bot mixed
strong enough to prevent the radiators from freezing.

On 2/26/2015 12:17 PM, Markem wrote:


As far as weatherman are concern "It's Entertainment".



Exactly! cigar?

On 2/26/2015 10:34 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Markem wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:02:33 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Markem wrote:


Shovel snow or run a snowblower you will probably sweat not
perspire, cold weather common sense if you are sweating to the
point of soaking your clothes, you are going to die with no shelter.

I have to take respectful exception to that comment. I think a lot
of what's being said here is that we all grew up playing out in the
cold and snow - long before the notion of wind chill became popular,
and we survived it just fine. Now - today - wind chill is bantered
about as if it is some plague upon mankind. Look - we all work up a
sweat doing hard work outside in the wintertime - we don't die from
that effort. Too much adoo about nothing...

But you had shelter to dry off and warm up, survival in cold weather
with out a house to warm up in is about not getting wet at all.

Come on Mark - people still have places to go into and get out of the
elements. That is no different today than it was when we were coming up.
The fact is that we would spend hours of a day outside in those temperatures
and look - we are still here to talk about it today. Your comment suggests
something different exists today, and I'm going to call Bull**** on that
thought.

If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures and
wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do is more
couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to mention that
today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a bus stop because
stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet to pick up the darlings at
their own mailbox. They are not even experiencing the same degree of
exposure that we did as kids. It has nothing at all to do with the
availablitly of a warm house nearby.

Sorry - I cannot agree with your position on this. We are continuing to
pussify our society and this (IMHO) is just one more example of it.


Yep!

On 2/25/2015 7:37 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 23:54:05 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/24/2015 10:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


Can't say I really love winter, and for sure - I'm really tired of
the zero and sub-zero temperatures this year, but having said that,
my standard outer wear for this kind of weather is a hooded, zip up
sweatshirt and a windbreaker.(just a standard spring/fall weight
windbreaker). I'm just getting tired of having to wear it in the
damned living room...

I'm thankful for heated seats and remote starters. My car has an
excellent heater at -15 too.

Funny you should mention that. My wife and I were just comparing the warm
up times of our two cars. My '06 Sonata will start to throw warm air within
less than a mile of driving, from a cold start in the garage. Her '10 Forte
takes 5 or 6 miles down the road to begin to throw heat. By the time I'm
1.5 miles down the road I can turn the blower on full and be getting full
blown heat - she's still shivering in her car. I have a 6 cylinder in my
Sonata and she has a 4 in her Forte - you'd think hers would warm up
quicker, but that's not the case.

My '13 F150 doesn't get warm until I'm half way home (18mi). I don't
live in Vermont anymore, either. It doesn't get cold here in GA but
my truck doesn't want to get warm. Gotta get it into the shop (gotta
be a bad thermostat - still under warranty).

What does your temp gauge say? Normal, not your thermostat. You could
have a bad diverter valve.

"Leon"
A few years before that when I was still working
automotive we had vehicles being towed in for
overheating. The coolant was not mixed strong
enough to prevent the radiators from freezing.


In Flin Flon Manitoba there is an old
freight hauling tractor that was used
on the ice road in winter to haul
supplies to the mine. It is at the FF
museum. The sign on it says they used
kerosene in the cooling system because
it was so cold up there and they had no
such thing as modern day antifreeze.
Those must have been tough days!
-60F ! Yes, yes, I admit, I did make a
motorcycle trip there back in '07...and
please don't ask me why, I don't know...;)}

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 22:53:03 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/25/2015 8:37 PM, wrote:


Remote starters were illegal in VT, or more accurately, using them was
illegal. Just more evidence that the state is nuts.


They'd have to find me first. Some places have laws against leaving a
car running with the keys in it, but remote starter lock the doors and
unless you hit the button, the engine will die when you hit the brake pedal.

The law had nothing to do with the keys. Running any vehicle, without
an occupant, was illegal and they *WOULD* ticket you (though rarely on
your property).

It does contribute to global warming and the heartbreak of psoriasis
though.

AIUI, it was originally intended to prevent truckers from leaving
their engines running overnight.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:43:02 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/25/2015 7:37 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 23:54:05 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/24/2015 10:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


Can't say I really love winter, and for sure - I'm really tired of
the zero and sub-zero temperatures this year, but having said that,
my standard outer wear for this kind of weather is a hooded, zip up
sweatshirt and a windbreaker.(just a standard spring/fall weight
windbreaker). I'm just getting tired of having to wear it in the
damned living room...

I'm thankful for heated seats and remote starters. My car has an
excellent heater at -15 too.

Funny you should mention that. My wife and I were just comparing the warm
up times of our two cars. My '06 Sonata will start to throw warm air within
less than a mile of driving, from a cold start in the garage. Her '10 Forte
takes 5 or 6 miles down the road to begin to throw heat. By the time I'm
1.5 miles down the road I can turn the blower on full and be getting full
blown heat - she's still shivering in her car. I have a 6 cylinder in my
Sonata and she has a 4 in her Forte - you'd think hers would warm up
quicker, but that's not the case.

My '13 F150 doesn't get warm until I'm half way home (18mi). I don't
live in Vermont anymore, either. It doesn't get cold here in GA but
my truck doesn't want to get warm. Gotta get it into the shop (gotta
be a bad thermostat - still under warranty).

What does your temp gauge say? Normal, not your thermostat. You could
have a bad diverter valve.

My temperature gauge has been set on "freezing" all Winter. Oh, you
mean the truck's? It's very slow to come up to temperature.

On 2/26/2015 12:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures and
wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do is more
couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to mention that
today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a bus stop because
stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet to pick up the darlings at
their own mailbox. They are not even experiencing the same degree of
exposure that we did as kids. It has nothing at all to do with the
availablitly of a warm house nearby.

Not only does the bus stop at every house, I see parents driving the
kids from the garage to the end of the driveway to wait for the bus.
And this is in 40 degree weather with the sun shining..

wrote:

My temperature gauge has been set on "freezing" all Winter. Oh, you
mean the truck's? It's very slow to come up to temperature.

So is the 350 in my truck, but man - can that baby do some work!

--

-Mike-

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/26/2015 12:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures
and wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do
is more couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to
mention that today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a
bus stop because stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet
to pick up the darlings at their own mailbox. They are not even
experiencing the same degree of exposure that we did as kids. It
has nothing at all to do with the availablitly of a warm house
nearby.

Not only does the bus stop at every house, I see parents driving the
kids from the garage to the end of the driveway to wait for the bus.
And this is in 40 degree weather with the sun shining..

But the wind chill... Well that, and "precious" can't possibly dress for
the weather - that wouldn't be fashionable.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 20:38:46 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/26/2015 12:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures and
wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do is more
couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to mention that
today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a bus stop because
stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet to pick up the darlings at
their own mailbox. They are not even experiencing the same degree of
exposure that we did as kids. It has nothing at all to do with the
availablitly of a warm house nearby.

Not only does the bus stop at every house, I see parents driving the
kids from the garage to the end of the driveway to wait for the bus.
And this is in 40 degree weather with the sun shining..

In my neighborhood, mommy drives the brat to the main road (not far)
and waits on the corner (adjacent to the stop sign). One lane of the
intersection is blocked. What a PITA.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 20:39:26 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

My temperature gauge has been set on "freezing" all Winter. Oh, you
mean the truck's? It's very slow to come up to temperature.

So is the 350 in my truck, but man - can that baby do some work!

Mine is a 5L. I don't remember it being that slow to heat last year
but I wasn't on the drugs that a screwing with my metabolism, either.

wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 20:39:26 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

My temperature gauge has been set on "freezing" all Winter. Oh, you
mean the truck's? It's very slow to come up to temperature.

So is the 350 in my truck, but man - can that baby do some work!

Mine is a 5L. I don't remember it being that slow to heat last year
but I wasn't on the drugs that a screwing with my metabolism, either.

Maybe a stupid question, but you have made sure that your radiator is
properly filled (and the overflow tank), haven't you? Low coolant levels
will result in reduced heat output.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 20:43:32 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/26/2015 12:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:


If anything - people today spend less time out in those temperatures
and wind exposure, simply because they do less, and what they do do
is more couch/cellphone oriented than what we did as kids. Not to
mention that today, the precious little ones cannot even walk to a
bus stop because stupid parents want the bus to stop every 20 feet
to pick up the darlings at their own mailbox. They are not even
experiencing the same degree of exposure that we did as kids. It
has nothing at all to do with the availablitly of a warm house
nearby.

Not only does the bus stop at every house, I see parents driving the
kids from the garage to the end of the driveway to wait for the bus.
And this is in 40 degree weather with the sun shining..

But the wind chill... Well that, and "precious" can't possibly dress for
the weather - that wouldn't be fashionable.

Living near a University campus dress code for winter here seem to be
long sleeve t shirt and baggy shorts, sandals. Now it is southern
Illinois and wind chills near zero, so all that pampering made them
stupid, or maybe tougher ::cough::

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 21:36:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 20:39:26 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:

My temperature gauge has been set on "freezing" all Winter. Oh, you
mean the truck's? It's very slow to come up to temperature.

So is the 350 in my truck, but man - can that baby do some work!

Mine is a 5L. I don't remember it being that slow to heat last year
but I wasn't on the drugs that a screwing with my metabolism, either.

Maybe a stupid question, but you have made sure that your radiator is
properly filled (and the overflow tank), haven't you? Low coolant levels
will result in reduced heat output.

Good point but it's a fairly new truck (18K mi) and it's been
regularly serviced. I'll have to check tomorrow.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:57:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 7:59 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:44:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/24/2015 7:36 PM, Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article ,
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Global Warming is soooo 1990's

Look for a temperature anomoly map. While it's true that the Northeast
is getting slammed, most of the planet is currently hotter than
normal. That's why it's called "global" warming and not "the Northeast
this month" warming.



Well you can be picky, take a look at Antarctica. It has been "Normal
Cold" in SE Texas for the past 10~15 years. In the 90's it was warmer
in the winter than normal but it has returned to record setting lows
again as it was in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. In the 90's it was unusual
to see temps drop to the 30's in Houston. I have seen it in the 20's
pretty often in the past 10 years.

I think the warming thoughts are simply a result of being able to
process way too much information, with computers, and not getting a real
sense of what is going on. I suspect that had we had the same
information and computers 200 years ago we would not see anything out of
the ordinary today.

The evidence says that it's another way of increasing taxes.

Exactly, follow the money.

Yes indeed! I'm very suspicious about anything the government
promotes. They lie about everything, every time!

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:35:05 -0500, Gray_Wolf wrote:

Yes indeed! I'm very suspicious about anything the government promotes.
They lie about everything, every time!

Agreed - much better to trust the oil and coal companies :-)