As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat

patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for
med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like
holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go
online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that
between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the
bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and
impact driver). TIA Pat

I don't think the battery chemestry is going to make that big of a
difference Pat. I'd suggest you go with a smaller voltage drill. Big
difference in the bulkiness and balance of a 12v drill compared to an 18v.
You won't go wrong with any of the name brands for light to medium use.
Hell - you won't go wrong with Harbor Freight for light to medium work.
And - the price will be a hell of a lot less.

What I've started using more and more - but simply for running in screws, is
a little 3.4v driver. It's all the power necessary for most things, is a
nimble as can be, weighs nothing at all, and fits in all kinds of small
places. I don't have drill bits for mine, but they do make them. You'd
have to buy the 1/4" shank bits because it does not have a chuck. But these
days - I grab it and only go for my 18v for really tough stuff. This little
thing is a winner.

--

-Mike-

On 11/15/2013 8:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat

Lithium is the only way to go.

Try a 10 or 12v model they are pretty powerful.
I have a hitaci, I would recommend it for driving screws as I bought the
drill and impact. I use the impact for driving.. light and very nice.

The drill is light duty.

Or Milwakee, I have not seen dewalt really come to the table on Lithium,
and smaller units.



--
Jeff

patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for
med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like
holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go
online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that
between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the
bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and
impact driver). TIA Pat

Milwaukee 12V tools, the impact driver and the screwdriver great, use them
daily in my job. Looking at the drill as the next acquisition.

--
PV

On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat




Where to start...

If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non Li-ion.


As far as brand, you can't go wrong with Makita, one of the few that
still makes a quality tool. The green vs. the white Makita tools is the
better choice.

Are you looking for a drill driver or an impact or one of each?

A drill/driver is going to require you to hold on to the drill and brace
for the torque. On the other side of the coin is the impact that
typically had 4 times the torque of the similar voltage driver but does
not transfer the torque back to you.

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:26:41 -0800 (PST), patrick
wrote:

As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat

I love my Bosch 12V and 18V drills, drivers, and Impactors. Actually,
I have two 18V drills and Impactors (on sale they were cheaper than
the batteries).

Leon wrote:


If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
Li-ion.

Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
Leon.


--

-Mike-

On Friday, November 15, 2013 3:26:41 PM UTC-10, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. Looking for a lighter drill for med/light duty. This 62 yr old with a dicey shoulder doesn't like holding a 18v nimh makita (6lbs) for doing the job. Gee, you go online and look at the feedback on amazon and you'd think that between the dicey batteries,the wobbly and poorly clamping(the bits)chucks that all the makers can't make a decent drill (and impact driver). TIA Pat

Hi Pat,
I use the Dewalt 12 volt max Drill/driver and impact wrench for work and the 12 volt max impact driver for home use and they put out. Although not designed for it the impact wrench will handle 5/8 bolts with no problem.

You definitely want to stick with Li-ion because they hold their charge for a long time and will be ready to go when you need them. Plus they are so light and compact that I can carry the tools and spare batteries with less weight than one Makita 18 volt drill.

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:04:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
Li-ion.

Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
Leon.

Well, the18v Li-ion are lighter than the other 18v batteries, but not
enough so that he won't feel the weight of them. As suggested, I have
to agree that the 12v tools (of any battery type) are much lighter
than their 18v brethren and that's what I'd recommend in this
instance.

Of course, the only real solution to this problem is for the OP to go
to the store and find out for himself. It's his arms that will answer
the question of what to buy.

"Mike Marlow" wrote:
Leon wrote:


If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
Li-ion.

Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
Leon.



I'll have to say that I have never seen a "full sized" Li-ion battery then,
although the 15.4v 3.0 amp Li-ion battery on my Festool drill is at least
double the size of the 18 v Li-ion on my Bosch impact. Both are feather
weights compares to the 12 v Makita 2.6 amp Ni Metal

On 11/15/2013 10:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
Li-ion.

Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
Leon.



OK, for the record, A Festool 14.4v Li-Ion 3 amp battery weighs 19.8 oz.

A Makita 12 volt 2.6 amp Hi MH weighs 24.5 oz.

A Bosch, half size in appearance, 18 volt Li-ion 1.3 amp battery weighs
11.7 oz.

So the half size Bosch is approximately 60% the weight of the full size
Festool battery and the full size Festool battery is 80% the weight of
the similar sized Ni MH Makita 12 volt battery.


FWIW the Festool battery appears to be equal in size if not slightly
smaller than the Makita battery. The Festool battery has no stem that
engages the handle of the drill as the Makita battery has.

On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I don't know what the difference really is but there does seem to be a
fundamental behavior in that they have a much higher probability of
thermal runaway occurring.

$0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 02:34:48 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:04:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
If you go Li-ion, voltage is not going to matter. All of the Li=ion
batteries are small and light weight as compared to non Li-ion.
18 volt Li-ion is probably lighter in weight than a 12 bolt non
Li-ion.

Only if you go with the small LiON batteries. Full sized battery - no way,
Leon.

Well, the18v Li-ion are lighter than the other 18v batteries, but not
enough so that he won't feel the weight of them. As suggested, I have
to agree that the 12v tools (of any battery type) are much lighter
than their 18v brethren and that's what I'd recommend in this
instance.

the only time I use the 18V tools is when I'm driving 3" screws or
drilling 3/8" holes. ...give or take. Auger bits kinda need the
torque of the 18V drill.

Of course, the only real solution to this problem is for the OP to go
to the store and find out for himself. It's his arms that will answer
the question of what to buy.

Yes, comparing how they feel in your hand is important. Balance and
feel are personal preference.

I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge.. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat

On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat



My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
calibrated to each cell in the battery.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat



My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
calibrated to each cell in the battery.

It's no not so much calibration as it is protection. LiIon has a
nasty habit of bursting into flames if it's not treated well. Note
that all batteries have this problem to one degree or another. Any
time you store that much energy in a small place, bad things happen
when you let it loose suddenly.

The LiIon chargers are more complex than NiMH (which are more
complicated than NiCd) but in this age of ICs, it's all pretty simple
and cheap. Laptops do even more because they're doing a lot more
charge (as in coulombs) management in the laptop itself. The laptop
requires a "gas gauge" to do its thing maximizing run time. This
isn't true for a drill, so calibration isn't needed.

On 11/16/2013 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat



My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
calibrated to each cell in the battery.

It's no not so much calibration as it is protection. LiIon has a
nasty habit of bursting into flames if it's not treated well. Note
that all batteries have this problem to one degree or another. Any
time you store that much energy in a small place, bad things happen
when you let it loose suddenly.

The LiIon chargers are more complex than NiMH (which are more
complicated than NiCd) but in this age of ICs, it's all pretty simple
and cheap. Laptops do even more because they're doing a lot more
charge (as in coulombs) management in the laptop itself. The laptop
requires a "gas gauge" to do its thing maximizing run time. This
isn't true for a drill, so calibration isn't needed.

What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low end
chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than the
pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete it while
bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts down.

--
Jeff

On 11/16/2013 5:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/16/2013 1:00 PM, patrick wrote:
I've been using recycled lithium batteries for the past couple years in those bright chinese LED flashlights (salvaged from dead laptop battery packs) and the chargers all seem to take anywhere from 3 to even 8hrs to go through a complete charge to 4.02 volts(seldom drawn down past 3.5v). How the heck do the current crop of manufacturers get a battery completely charged in 1/2 hr? I'm guessing you are trading # of cycles for the rapid recharge. Do any of the chargers supplied with a typical drill have a slow charge function that might extend the # of cycles b4 the battery shows as defective to an intelligent charger?
Regarding the danger of fire- the radio control guys learned the hard way to make a fire resistant charging station such that if the battery (lithium ion at that time) attempted suicide, the damage would be contained.
I'll probably spring for one of the off brand 18v batteries to allow me to keep using the drill.
Btw- I noticed that dewalt and milwaukee seem to have optional batteries that have a higher amp/hr rating. Does the bosch and the makita offer the same thing?
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a drill and an impact at a decent price. Thanks in advance, Pat



My Bosch and Festool Li-Ion chargers have a combination of electronics
and or fans to monitor the heat being generated during charging. From
what I under stand the circuitry in the batter packs is sume what more
complex than the standard battery pack. IIRC this circuitry is
calibrated to each cell in the battery.

It's no not so much calibration as it is protection. LiIon has a
nasty habit of bursting into flames if it's not treated well. Note
that all batteries have this problem to one degree or another. Any
time you store that much energy in a small place, bad things happen
when you let it loose suddenly.

The LiIon chargers are more complex than NiMH (which are more
complicated than NiCd) but in this age of ICs, it's all pretty simple
and cheap. Laptops do even more because they're doing a lot more
charge (as in coulombs) management in the laptop itself. The laptop
requires a "gas gauge" to do its thing maximizing run time. This
isn't true for a drill, so calibration isn't needed.



Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My
last rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90
day warranty.

http://www.primecell.com/qli-Ion.htm

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My last
rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90 day warranty.

No Dewally, no need for Primecell, yet.

Since I switched to Makita (again, after 25 years), it's amazing how I
don't even think about cordless batteries any longer.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

Leon wrote:

I'll have to say that I have never seen a "full sized" Li-ion battery
then, although the 15.4v 3.0 amp Li-ion battery on my Festool drill
is at least double the size of the 18 v Li-ion on my Bosch impact.
Both are feather weights compares to the 12 v Makita 2.6 amp Ni Metal

Sorry Leon - perhaps a matter of terminology. My drill came with the half
sized LiON batteries. I think they were around 1.sumptin amps. I got them
upgraded for free under warranty to the 3.sumptin amp batteries. The little
ones were lighter but they sucked. The bigger ones don't seem to be that
much different from the other battery technologies. Maybe I just don't feel
it, but that's how it seems to me.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:


OK, for the record, A Festool 14.4v Li-Ion 3 amp battery weighs 19.8
oz.
A Makita 12 volt 2.6 amp Hi MH weighs 24.5 oz.

A Bosch, half size in appearance, 18 volt Li-ion 1.3 amp battery
weighs 11.7 oz.

That clarifies a lot. It seems Makita is loading their batteries with
weight - to make the user feel more manly...



--

-Mike-

dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?


I don't know what the difference really is but there does seem to be a
fundamental behavior in that they have a much higher probability of
thermal runaway occurring.

No, it doesn't.


$0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

Fair enough.

--

-Mike-

woodchucker wrote:

What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
down.

How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?

--

-Mike-

On 11/16/2013 7:58 PM, Swingman wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My last
rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90 day warranty.

No Dewally, no need for Primecell, yet.

Since I switched to Makita (again, after 25 years), it's amazing how I
don't even think about cordless batteries any longer.



Seriously, I replaced that prime cell rebuild 5 months after they
rebuilt it, and with a new one from Batteries Plus. Came with a 1 year
warranty. There is one near you, Beechnut and 610 when the time comes.

However the Li-Ion may have to come from Makita.

On 11/16/2013 9:29 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

I'll have to say that I have never seen a "full sized" Li-ion battery
then, although the 15.4v 3.0 amp Li-ion battery on my Festool drill
is at least double the size of the 18 v Li-ion on my Bosch impact.
Both are feather weights compares to the 12 v Makita 2.6 amp Ni Metal

Sorry Leon - perhaps a matter of terminology. My drill came with the half
sized LiON batteries. I think they were around 1.sumptin amps. I got them
upgraded for free under warranty to the 3.sumptin amp batteries. The little
ones were lighter but they sucked. The bigger ones don't seem to be that
much different from the other battery technologies. Maybe I just don't feel
it, but that's how it seems to me.



I noticed that The Festool Drill that I have now comes with a 4.2 amp
battery... ;~(. 3 amp lasts long enough and I still don't use my Makita
or Bosch impact drives any more. A dew weeks ago I was driving 5/16"x4"
lag screws with my Festool drill, In the non clutch setting and in the
high speed setting I had to grab the battery with my left hand to keep
the drill from twisting my right hand off when the screw fully seated in
the stud. Yes I did predrill but only 3" deep and part of that was
sheet rock. I still find it amazing that I have not yet stalled the
drill except when the electronic clutch is engaged.

On 11/16/2013 9:31 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


OK, for the record, A Festool 14.4v Li-Ion 3 amp battery weighs 19.8
oz.
A Makita 12 volt 2.6 amp Hi MH weighs 24.5 oz.

A Bosch, half size in appearance, 18 volt Li-ion 1.3 amp battery
weighs 11.7 oz.

That clarifies a lot. It seems Makita is loading their batteries with
weight - to make the user feel more manly...





Yeah that's it. LOL

On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?

It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
spark. ;~)

I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
time is.

On 11/16/2013 9:40 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
woodchucker wrote:

What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
down.

How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?



I would think that would not be difficult. In my automotive days and
when you could open the cells to add water you could put a probe down
inside each cell of a 12 volt car battery and get the voltage of each
cell. It is cumulative but when you move up a cell and the voltage does
not change the cell is dead.

Leon wrote:

I noticed that The Festool Drill that I have now comes with a 4.2 amp
battery... ;~(. 3 amp lasts long enough and I still don't use my
Makita or Bosch impact drives any more. A dew weeks ago I was
driving 5/16"x4" lag screws with my Festool drill, In the non clutch
setting and in the high speed setting I had to grab the battery with
my left hand to keep the drill from twisting my right hand off when
the screw fully seated in the stud. Yes I did predrill but only 3"
deep and part of that was sheet rock. I still find it amazing that I
have not yet stalled the drill except when the electronic clutch is
engaged.

Hey - weren't you supposed to send that drill up to me for an honest
evaluation?

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:

I would think that would not be difficult. In my automotive days and
when you could open the cells to add water you could put a probe down
inside each cell of a 12 volt car battery and get the voltage of each
cell. It is cumulative but when you move up a cell and the voltage
does not change the cell is dead.

Except that in those days (and even today if you know how to do it), you
could access each cell in a series scheme. Not so with a charger that has
contacts that do not wire to each cell. Methinks there is much more
smoke-mirrors-and-lights going on in groups like this than there is actual
factual information about stuff like this.
--

-Mike-

On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?

It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
spark. ;~)

I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
time is.




I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
circuitry to prevent either condition.

I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
hardly get warm from use or recharge.

However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike wrote:
I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
hardly get warm from use or recharge.

I agree with this. From my first rechargeable drill purchased in 1987
to my present one bought four years ago, I've had four different
brands. While most them got warm to the touch when charging, (some
overnight) I've never noticed a problem with excessive overheating.

"Mike Marlow" wrote:
Leon wrote:

I would think that would not be difficult. In my automotive days and
when you could open the cells to add water you could put a probe down
inside each cell of a 12 volt car battery and get the voltage of each
cell. It is cumulative but when you move up a cell and the voltage
does not change the cell is dead.

Except that in those days (and even today if you know how to do it), you
could access each cell in a series scheme. Not so with a charger that has
contacts that do not wire to each cell. Methinks there is much more
smoke-mirrors-and-lights going on in groups like this than there is actual
factual information about stuff like this.

There is circuitry inside the battery pack thar monitors charging and the
voltage of each cell. Not saying that is actually how it is done but how it
could be done.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike wrote:

On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?

It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
spark. ;~)

I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
time is.




I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
circuitry to prevent either condition.

R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would **** me
off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(

Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
in my garage, either.

I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
hardly get warm from use or recharge.

How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
mitigated by the color of the plastic.

However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.

Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:40:22 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

woodchucker wrote:

What Leon was referring to is balancing technology. Which makes sure
each cell is in range, and not deviating from the others.
That is actually where most of the problems are, especially with low
end chargers. The better chargers will monitor each cell rather than
the pack and if one cell gets higher than the other it will deplete
it while bringing the others up. If they are too far out it shuts
down.

How do you monitor an idividual cell when they are connected in series?

You put a chip across each cell, often in the pack.

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 19:58:53 -0600, Swingman wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Pretty good information here however I no longer use Prime Cell. My last
rebuild did not last 60 days and their warranty is a pro rated 90 day warranty.

No Dewally, no need for Primecell, yet.

Since I switched to Makita (again, after 25 years), it's amazing how I
don't even think about cordless batteries any longer.

My Makita batteries don't last long at all. I don't use the drills
anymore because I got tired of buying batteries.

On 11/17/2013 11:42 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike wrote:

On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?

It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
spark. ;~)

I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
time is.




I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
circuitry to prevent either condition.

R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would **** me
off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(

True enough. A lot of it was self inflicted though.


Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
in my garage, either.

I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
hardly get warm from use or recharge.

How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
mitigated by the color of the plastic.

Around 1.5 hours. I didn't say the color mattered. However, you could
get more or less heat depending on how the manufacturer chose to handle
the charge cycle. I mentioned the brand in the interest of full disclosure.


However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.

Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?

Lamps? No, flipping the switch takes care of that just like the timer
on the charger does. Everything in the entertainment center is
connected to a power strip.

On 11/16/2013 10:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?


I don't know what the difference really is but there does seem to be a
fundamental behavior in that they have a much higher probability of
thermal runaway occurring.

No, it doesn't.


$0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...

Fair enough.

Especially if he has old stock of nimh or nicads that he wants to push out.

--
Jeff

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 14:38:37 -0500, Mike wrote:

On 11/17/2013 11:42 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:48:44 -0500, Mike wrote:

On 11/16/2013 11:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 11/16/2013 9:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/15/2013 7:26 PM, patrick wrote:
As to lithium batteries yay or nay. ...

I'm still holding off...heard too many firsthand stories of chargers
overheating to be comfortable having one in the house or barn lest I
forget to unplug it.

You'd be very well advised to check into those stories before placing too
much confidence in them.


Most recent story of just a couple of months ago--JD dealer here has
started carrying Milwaukee, Makita, and another one or two in new
dealership showroom besides the Green-branded stuff (the maker of whom
for them I'm not positive--need to ask Russ about that). Anyway was
looking for the LED lantern attachment to go on the existing Milwaukee
NiMH packs I have for winter backup power-outage lighting relief and
didn't have any for them, only the Li. So that naturally go to the
discussion of same and he mentioned he'd had three packs overheat and
nearly start fires on different tools/manufacturers and they had also
had trouble with some in the shop. So his take was "don't leave them
unattended" -- mine is "not taking a chance" at least yet.

I find that very hard to believe. Very hard. Dealer's stories are
not all
that reliable. Especially if the dealer is older or fixed in some
older way
of doing business. You really don't think this would be more well
publicized if it were really true?

It could happen.....right after the dusc collector explodes from a
spark. ;~)

I think the safe bet is to put the charger on a electric timer to shut
the power off after a couple of hours or what ever the normal charging
time is.




I think the stories of Li batteries bursting into flames got started
years ago as a result of early use by the R/C crowd. Model plane flyers
are always looking for a way to reduce weight and Li batteries were seen
as the new perfect answer. The problem was they would frequently build
their packs without the benefit of knowing how to protect them from
under or over charge. Discharge too low and you kill the battery.
Overcharge it and you have instant fire. The fix, of course, was to add
circuitry to prevent either condition.

R/C modelers have had issues with NiCd, too. However, the issue with
LiIon is real, if overstated in the "sky is falling" press. Laptops
have had trouble as has the Tesla (a burning $100K car would **** me
off). I witnessed one LiIon fire at my PPoE - one of ours. :-(

True enough. A lot of it was self inflicted though.

A lot was cause by a premature rollout of LiIon, but not all. Again,
any time you pack that much energy into a small space, you're asking
for trouble.

Some tool chargers are pretty aggressive, too. It's not enough for me
to shy away from the technology, though. Any energy storage device
has to be considered dangerous. I don't lose sleep about the gas can
in my garage, either.

I have 2 Milwaukee 12V Li battery devices. One is almost 2 years old
and the other about 6 months old. They get used a lot and the batteries
hardly get warm from use or recharge.

How long is the charge cycle. Heat is a fact of life. It can't be
mitigated by the color of the plastic.

Around 1.5 hours. I didn't say the color mattered. However, you could
get more or less heat depending on how the manufacturer chose to handle
the charge cycle. I mentioned the brand in the interest of full disclosure.

The reason is that it's only .7C. Chargers (batteries) running at 4C
will get hot. It's not the brand. It's the physics.

However, being a belt and suspender type guy I use a timer as Leon
suggested. Not that I'm particularly worried that they will overheat.
I just have an aversion to leaving anything on that doesn't need to be on.

Do you unplug your TV every time you shut it "off", too? Your lamps?

Lamps? No, flipping the switch takes care of that just like the timer
on the charger does. Everything in the entertainment center is
connected to a power strip.

Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you leave
the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
love resetting clocks. ;-)

On 11/17/2013 6:15 PM, wrote:



Do you really turn the entire entertainment system off when you leave
the house? Amazing. Our satellite box would go bonkers. You must
love resetting clocks. ;-)


We were having some less than a second power blips that would knock out
the sat receiver. It was such a PITA that I finally put it on a UPS.
Problem solved.