[Swingman]

On 8/19/2013 12:55 PM, Bill wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Markem[_2_]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:52:28 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/19/2013 12:55 PM, Bill wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Not every where in the United States, the co-op to my house and over
the entire system is single phase, they have only single phase
generators at the power house. But I would bet that my cost per kilo
watt is cheaper that most.

[Larry W[_3_]]

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
On 8/18/2013 7:20 PM, Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Look at it this way ... when one hot wire is negative, the other is
positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they
are "out of phase". IOW, 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot
wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. Guaranteed.


I'd rather look at it this way... When one wire is negative,
the other is positive. so the 2 wires complete the circuit together
becasue they are IN PHASE with each other. Guaranteed.

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.


I guess we can agree to disagree here. To me, the 2 120 volt conductors
are in phase, just at equal and opposite polarity at any given time. Which
is not the case when compared to conductors from either of the other
2 power distribution conductors, which truly are out of phase.




--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

[Leon[_7_]]

On 8/19/2013 10:55 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:05:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 8:18 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 06:54:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.

Your understanding of electrical things is not very good. I have many
years as an electronic tech. I have tested with an oscilloscope your
theory and proved it wrong. The two legs of a 240V are in phase.

But in the end it really does not matter because everthing electrical
will still work as long as it ain't broke.

Mark



FWIW I once had a newly appointed CPA that worked for me. He did not
understand the importance of using the next sequentially numbered box of
invoices when the previous box was empty.

Kind of like the woman who asked my friend the teller, "what do mean,
I still have checks" when she was told she was over drawn.


I think you may have missed my point. He, the CPA, was constantly
reminding me of his education and knowledge of all aspects of
accounting. It did mot make him right, just a mediocre accountant.

[Markem[_2_]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:20:13 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 10:55 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:05:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 8:18 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 06:54:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.

Your understanding of electrical things is not very good. I have many
years as an electronic tech. I have tested with an oscilloscope your
theory and proved it wrong. The two legs of a 240V are in phase.

But in the end it really does not matter because everthing electrical
will still work as long as it ain't broke.

Mark



FWIW I once had a newly appointed CPA that worked for me. He did not
understand the importance of using the next sequentially numbered box of
invoices when the previous box was empty.

Kind of like the woman who asked my friend the teller, "what do mean,
I still have checks" when she was told she was over drawn.


I think you may have missed my point. He, the CPA, was constantly
reminding me of his education and knowledge of all aspects of
accounting. It did mot make him right, just a mediocre accountant.

Twas an insult then, oh well.

[Leon[_7_]]

On 8/19/2013 10:52 AM, Markem wrote:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

The two halves of the transformer are 180 degrees apart, not the
signal. Question what do you get when you add 120 and -120?

Mark



You do realize that we are talking "AC" not "DC"...

[Bill[_47_]]

Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:
On 8/18/2013 7:20 PM, Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:
Look at it this way ... when one hot wire is negative, the other is
positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they
are "out of phase". IOW, 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot
wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. Guaranteed.

I'd rather look at it this way... When one wire is negative,
the other is positive. so the 2 wires complete the circuit together
becasue they are IN PHASE with each other. Guaranteed.
Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.

I guess we can agree to disagree here. To me, the 2 120 volt conductors
are in phase, just at equal and opposite polarity at any given time.
I think we may be better off if you turn your keyboard upside down. It
will still be in phase, it will just have opposite polarity.

Did you notice that if you shift the periodic graph to the left or
right, i.e. do a "phase-shift"), that the graphs will coincide. That's
where the terminology comes from.

Which
is not the case when compared to conductors from either of the other
2 power distribution conductors, which truly are out of phase.

[Leon[_7_]]

On 8/19/2013 5:23 PM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:20:13 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 10:55 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:05:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 8:18 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 06:54:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.

Your understanding of electrical things is not very good. I have many
years as an electronic tech. I have tested with an oscilloscope your
theory and proved it wrong. The two legs of a 240V are in phase.

But in the end it really does not matter because everthing electrical
will still work as long as it ain't broke.

Mark



FWIW I once had a newly appointed CPA that worked for me. He did not
understand the importance of using the next sequentially numbered box of
invoices when the previous box was empty.

Kind of like the woman who asked my friend the teller, "what do mean,
I still have checks" when she was told she was over drawn.


I think you may have missed my point. He, the CPA, was constantly
reminding me of his education and knowledge of all aspects of
accounting. It did mot make him right, just a mediocre accountant.

Twas an insult then, oh well.

No, not an insult just that he was not always as right as he though he was.

[Peter Bennett]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:55:57 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/19/2013 10:52 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 09:45:19 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 09:00:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 06:54:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of
the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also
connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages
relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out
of phase
with respect to each other.

Your understanding of electrical things is not very good. I have
many
years as an electronic tech. I have tested with an oscilloscope your
theory and proved it wrong. The two legs of a 240V are in phase.

But in the end it really does not matter because everthing
electrical
will still work as long as it ain't broke.

Mark

Then you should know the difference between electric and
electronic.

I do, do you?

You just think you do ... read the second sentence and weep:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

The two halves of the transformer are 180 degrees apart, not the
signal. Question what do you get when you add 120 and -120?
Yes, one takes the difference (not does addition). Although I'm
surprised the 2 halves are 180 degree apart. A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The main AC distribution system is indeed three phase, with the phases
120 degrees apart. However, most residential areas only get one of
the three high voltage phases, and that is stepped down to 120/240V in
a single phase transformer. The center of the 240 volt secondary of
that transformer is grounded, and becomes the Neutral. The two ends
of the secondary become the two 120V "hots". Because they come from
opposite ends of the 240 V winding, there is 240 V between them. The
two hot wires can be described as 180 degrees out of phase (although
this description upsets some people). You could also say that one hot
wire is inverted relative to the other - when wire A is at +120V and
rising, wire B is at -120V and falling, so you will measure 240V
between the hot wires.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver BC
peterbb (at) telus.net
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

[Peter Bennett]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:52:28 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/19/2013 12:55 PM, Bill wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Since the power wiring is overhead here, I can see the HV wiring.
Three phases head north along the street. At each east/west lane, one
of the three phases has a connection to a HV wire running along the
lane, so the transformer feeding my house only sees a single phase of
HV, and all the houses in my block are on the same phase. The adjacent
blocks north and south are on the other two phases.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver BC
peterbb (at) telus.net
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

[Doug Miller[_4_]]

Markem wrote in
:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:00:39 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Markem wrote in
news:8mf4195abgnv84pjhaa9juqgj01kv60tuo@
4ax.com:

The two halves of the transformer are 180 degrees apart, not the
signal. Question what do you get when you add 120 and -120?

Wrong question.

The correct question is, "what is the potential difference between -120V and +120V?"

If you answered "zero" you fail.

I notice you didn't attempt to answer this one. Why is that, I wonder?

[Lew Hodgett[_6_]]

"Peter Bennett" wrote:

Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver BC
peterbb (at) telus.net
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca
-----------------------------------------------------------
Great organization.

You're boating safety classes are a winner.

Coming from this ragbagger, that's quiet a complimentG.

Lew

[Markem[_2_]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:58:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Markem wrote in
:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:00:39 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Markem wrote in
news:8mf4195abgnv84pjhaa9juqgj01kv60tuo@
4ax.com:

The two halves of the transformer are 180 degrees apart, not the
signal. Question what do you get when you add 120 and -120?

Wrong question.

The correct question is, "what is the potential difference between -120V and +120V?"

If you answered "zero" you fail.

I notice you didn't attempt to answer this one. Why is that, I wonder?

Because how you stated it is obvious and need not be answered.

Nor do I need to engage you.

[Dan Coby]

On 8/19/2013 11:08 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:43:36 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be focused on a phase shift in
your use of the term "phase", which is not the only proper use of the term.

Both legs of a 240V are 120V each, if you look at them on an
oscilloscope the peaks and valleys match each other, they are in phase
with each other, ...

When you use an oscilloscope to look at the two hot wires of a 240 volt circuit
(in the US) you will see that the positive peak of one wire corresponds to the
negative peak of the other wire and vice versa. (This assumes that both signals
are measured relative to the neutral.) I.e. one signal looks like the other
signal plus a 180 degree phase shift. The two signals are commonly referred to
as being 180 degrees out of phase.


Dan

PS: If you actually try this experiment, please use some caution. Most
oscilloscopes are not designed to handle this high of a voltage on their
inputs. Also incorrectly connecting the signals can result in dangerous
high voltages in unexpected places. I.e "Please read and understand all
of the safety information related to the use of your equipment."

[Doug Miller[_4_]]

Markem wrote in news:e6n419h2c3jm9dnd8ngfisbv0nplrr1ol7
@4ax.com:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:43:36 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be focused on a phase shift in
your use of the term "phase", which is not the only proper use of the term.

Both legs of a 240V are 120V each, if you look at them on an
oscilloscope the peaks and valleys match each other, they are in phase
with each other,

Not having looked at this on an o-scope, I'm not prepared to say anything about what you
do or don't see on a scope... but I will say that you are 100% dead wrong about the peaks
and valleys matching in the circuit.

If they did -- if the peaks on each leg matched the peaks on the other, and likewise for the
valleys -- the potential difference between the two legs would be zero.

It is not. It is 240V RMS.

The peaks on one leg occur at the same time as the valleys on the other, and vice versa.

3 phase power has 3 power legs each shifted 120
degrees in phase.

And single-phase center-tapped 240/120 has two power legs shifted 180 degrees in phase.

Now if anyone doubts what I am say it really does not matter, our
electrical devices and power tools will continue to work.

And the reason that they work is that the peaks on one leg of center-tapped 240/120 service
match the valleys on the other leg.

If you want
to experiment with and oscilloscope and prove me wrong go ahead you
will not be able to do that.

The fact that 240volt circuits work is sufficient to prove you wrong.

[Doug Miller[_4_]]

Bill wrote in :

Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:43:36 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be focused on a phase shift in
your use of the term "phase", which is not the only proper use of the term.
Both legs of a 240V are 120V each, if you look at them on an
oscilloscope the peaks and valleys match each other, they are in phase
with each other, 3 phase power has 3 power legs each shifted 120
degrees in phase.
I copied the following from Wikipedia:

If two conductors are energized with ac voltages that are the same
magnitude and in-phase, there will be no voltage difference between
them. If the voltages are the same magnitude and one voltage is delayed
one-half cycle with respect to the other, the voltage between the two
will be double.

Absolutely correct.

I think this is consistent with what everyone except Markem is saying.

Correct again.

[Doug Miller[_4_]]

(Larry W) wrote in :


I guess we can agree to disagree here. To me, the 2 120 volt conductors
are in phase, just at equal and opposite polarity at any given time.

But that is *by definition* out of phase.

[[email protected]]

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Since the power wiring is overhead here, I can see the HV wiring.
Three phases head north along the street. At each east/west lane, one
of the three phases has a connection to a HV wire running along the
lane, so the transformer feeding my house only sees a single phase of
HV, and all the houses in my block are on the same phase. The adjacent
blocks north and south are on the other two phases.



Yep - I suspect that Swingman was referring to the
transmission 3 phase ... not the distribution feeder level.
which can be 3 phase or single phase.
jt

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[[email protected]]

Did you notice that if you shift the periodic graph to the left or
right, i.e. do a "phase-shift"), that the graphs will coincide. That's
where the terminology comes from.


.. OK is that a Phase Angle ? or a Load Angle ?
...... now let's move on and discuss reactive power !
- just kidding - this has been flogged to death - I hope.
jt



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[Swingman]

wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Since the power wiring is overhead here, I can see the HV wiring.
Three phases head north along the street. At each east/west lane, one
of the three phases has a connection to a HV wire running along the
lane, so the transformer feeding my house only sees a single phase of
HV, and all the houses in my block are on the same phase. The adjacent
blocks north and south are on the other two phases.



Yep - I suspect that Swingman was referring to the
transmission 3 phase ... not the distribution feeder level.
which can be 3 phase or single phase.
jt

You don't have to "suspect", I clearly stated same, more than once. 😊


--
www.ewoodshop.com

[Lew Hodgett[_6_]]

wrote:

.. OK is that a Phase Angle ? or a Load Angle ?
..... now let's move on and discuss reactive power !
- just kidding - this has been flogged to death - I hope.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Not until 208Y/120V/3PH/60HZ/4 wire Y is addressed and flogged to
death.

Lew

[Doug Miller[_4_]]

Markem wrote in
:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:58:31 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Markem wrote in
m:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:00:39 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Markem wrote in
news:8mf4195abgnv84pjhaa9juqgj01kv60tuo@
4ax.com:

The two halves of the transformer are 180 degrees apart, not the
signal. Question what do you get when you add 120 and -120?

Wrong question.

The correct question is, "what is the potential difference between -120V and +120V?"

If you answered "zero" you fail.

I notice you didn't attempt to answer this one. Why is that, I wonder?

Because how you stated it is obvious and need not be answered.

I agree that it is indeed obvious -- but your previous posts give the strong impression that it
is not at all obvious to *you*.

Nor do I need to engage you.

Translation: I'm right, but you won't admit it...

[Markem[_2_]]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 03:32:28 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Translation: I'm right, but you won't admit it...

Wrong conclusion

[Markem[_2_]]

Let me startover what I am saying is there is only one 60 hz signal
across the center tapped transformer. Both leads are the same signal
the and do switch polarity 180 degrees at the same time. When you
reference to the neutral and check both with an oscilloscope you see
that the peaks and valleys match on the sine wave adding the together
you get the full 240v.

My problem has been in the description creating an image in my mind of
two sine waves out of phase with each other.

The potential of both of the hot leads oscillates at the same time and
are always 180 degrees apart on the sine wave.

So in the end it was how I interperted what was being said and
creating an image of what was being said as not fully correct in my
head.

Does that make any sense?

Mark

[Swingman]

On 8/20/2013 9:18 AM, Markem wrote:

The potential of both of the hot leads oscillates at the same time and
are always 180 degrees apart on the sine wave.

So in the end it was how I interperted what was being said and
creating an image of what was being said as not fully correct in my
head.

Does that make any sense?

Yep, no problem ... understandably, and basically what I was trying to
convey in cautioning about separating "electrical" and "electronics".

There is a difference, often subtle, but a difference nonetheless.

No problem ... you were basically gentlemanly about the entire issue,
AAMOF, remarkably so considering it was an electrical thread on the wRec
.... to your credit. LOL

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Mike Marlow[_2_]]

Markem wrote:
Let me startover what I am saying is there is only one 60 hz signal
across the center tapped transformer. Both leads are the same signal
the and do switch polarity 180 degrees at the same time. When you
reference to the neutral and check both with an oscilloscope you see
that the peaks and valleys match on the sine wave adding the together
you get the full 240v.

My problem has been in the description creating an image in my mind of
two sine waves out of phase with each other.

The potential of both of the hot leads oscillates at the same time and
are always 180 degrees apart on the sine wave.

So in the end it was how I interperted what was being said and
creating an image of what was being said as not fully correct in my
head.

Does that make any sense?


Yes - it does. This is one of the more common difficulties when people talk
about phase, polarity, center tap, etc.

But - to me what is most impressive is your decision to step back from the
rhetoric of "I'm right/you're wrong because you just don't see it", that
kind of overtakes conversations like this. Not that anyone is being
intentionally disruptive, but the nature of usenet conversations is that
they become "if you paid attention to what I said..." kinds of things and
it's really obvious that the parties talking are simply not understanding
each other. I'm not accusing you of that rhetoric - it's what happens in
newsgroup discussions. I'm applauding you for stepping back from what
naturally occurs and enabling the understanding that two or more people are
really saying the same thing even though it did not appear to be so.
Symantics and all that crap.

So - you are wrong. You took a high road for admitting it. I took an even
higher road by complimenting you. Ain't I good?

--

-Mike-

[Mike Marlow[_2_]]

Mike Marlow wrote:
Markem wrote:
Let me startover what I am saying is there is only one 60 hz signal
across the center tapped transformer. Both leads are the same signal
the and do switch polarity 180 degrees at the same time. When you
reference to the neutral and check both with an oscilloscope you see
that the peaks and valleys match on the sine wave adding the together
you get the full 240v.

My problem has been in the description creating an image in my mind
of two sine waves out of phase with each other.

The potential of both of the hot leads oscillates at the same time
and are always 180 degrees apart on the sine wave.

So in the end it was how I interperted what was being said and
creating an image of what was being said as not fully correct in my
head.

Does that make any sense?


Yes - it does. This is one of the more common difficulties when
people talk about phase, polarity, center tap, etc.

But - to me what is most impressive is your decision to step back
from the rhetoric of "I'm right/you're wrong because you just don't
see it", that kind of overtakes conversations like this. Not that
anyone is being intentionally disruptive, but the nature of usenet
conversations is that they become "if you paid attention to what I
said..." kinds of things and it's really obvious that the parties
talking are simply not understanding each other. I'm not accusing
you of that rhetoric - it's what happens in newsgroup discussions. I'm
applauding you for stepping back from what naturally occurs and
enabling the understanding that two or more people are really saying
the same thing even though it did not appear to be so. Symantics and
all that crap.
So - you are wrong. You took a high road for admitting it. I took
an even higher road by complimenting you. Ain't I good?

By the way - I'm known as the Peace-Keeper around here. You can count on me
to be understanding...

--

-Mike-

[Markem[_2_]]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 12:16:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

So - you are wrong. You took a high road for admitting it. I took an even
higher road by complimenting you. Ain't I good?

Not wrong, just not communicating.

You might even be grand.

Mark

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:31:29 -0700, Dan Coby
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 11:08 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:43:36 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be focused on a phase shift in
your use of the term "phase", which is not the only proper use of the term.

Both legs of a 240V are 120V each, if you look at them on an
oscilloscope the peaks and valleys match each other, they are in phase
with each other, ...

When you use an oscilloscope to look at the two hot wires of a 240 volt circuit
(in the US) you will see that the positive peak of one wire corresponds to the
negative peak of the other wire and vice versa. (This assumes that both signals
are measured relative to the neutral.) I.e. one signal looks like the other
signal plus a 180 degree phase shift. The two signals are commonly referred to
as being 180 degrees out of phase.


Dan

PS: If you actually try this experiment, please use some caution. Most
oscilloscopes are not designed to handle this high of a voltage on their
inputs. Also incorrectly connecting the signals can result in dangerous
high voltages in unexpected places. I.e "Please read and understand all
of the safety information related to the use of your equipment."
Simple, safe way to "play in the sandbox". Get yourself a simple
center tapped fillament transformer out of your "way back box" - or a
transformer from a full wave rectified (non bridge) power supply.

Then plug the primary into the 110 volt SINGLE PHASE power supply.
You now have a low voltage version of the north american 3 wire power
distribution system with a safe approxemately 12 volt (depending on
the transformer) output that you can play with on the scope. If you
want to go a bit farther in your "playing" get 2 bell transformers, or
other low voltage single secondary transformers and connect the
primaries in series, then check the "separate" secondaries - which are
in effect a split center tapped winding that you can connect in phase
and 180 degrees out of phase by simply changing the connection. Each
secondary will give you, say, 10 volts when separated, and either 0 or
20 when connected, either in or out of phase - however you want to
define that.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:55:57 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Swingman wrote:
On 8/19/2013 10:52 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 09:45:19 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 09:00:09 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 06:54:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of
the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also
connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages
relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out
of phase
with respect to each other.

Your understanding of electrical things is not very good. I have
many
years as an electronic tech. I have tested with an oscilloscope your
theory and proved it wrong. The two legs of a 240V are in phase.

But in the end it really does not matter because everthing
electrical
will still work as long as it ain't broke.

Mark

Then you should know the difference between electric and
electronic.

I do, do you?

You just think you do ... read the second sentence and weep:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

The two halves of the transformer are 180 degrees apart, not the
signal. Question what do you get when you add 120 and -120?
Yes, one takes the difference (not does addition). Although I'm
surprised the 2 halves are 180 degree apart. A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The difference is 240v, not zero, as you seem to want to imply.

Might want to start thinking along the lines of alternating current
... your electronic background maybe making the forest hard to see for
the trees.

(TIA for keeping this informative and not ending up as a typical wRec
electrical thread).

There often ARE 3 hots on the pole. The main distribution circuit IS
3 phase - but each transformer hangs on one phase, giving you single
phase power to the service, unless you need and pay for a 3 phase
circuit. Many MURBs have 3 phase services Some of them are 120/208,
working with a single 3 phase transformer, but more and more are
running 120/240 with 3 separate center tapped transformers in the
vault.

Even a lot of industries with 3 phase power are running 120/240 for
lighting and office power, derived from a center tapped secondary
transformer connected to one leg of the 3 phase servive, rather than
running 120/208 or other "3 phase" power schemes.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:23:22 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:52:28 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/19/2013 12:55 PM, Bill wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Not every where in the United States, the co-op to my house and over
the entire system is single phase, they have only single phase
generators at the power house. But I would bet that my cost per kilo
watt is cheaper that most.
Extremely rare, in the whole north american scheme of things - and
that means you are independent of the national grid.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 16:55:42 -0700, Peter Bennett
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:52:28 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/19/2013 12:55 PM, Bill wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Since the power wiring is overhead here, I can see the HV wiring.
Three phases head north along the street. At each east/west lane, one
of the three phases has a connection to a HV wire running along the
lane, so the transformer feeding my house only sees a single phase of
HV, and all the houses in my block are on the same phase. The adjacent
blocks north and south are on the other two phases.
That is correct - in most parts of North America. When the wiring
is underground, it is done virtually the same way.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:29:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 5:23 PM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:20:13 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 10:55 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:05:39 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/19/2013 8:18 AM, Markem wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 06:54:36 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.

Your understanding of electrical things is not very good. I have many
years as an electronic tech. I have tested with an oscilloscope your
theory and proved it wrong. The two legs of a 240V are in phase.

But in the end it really does not matter because everthing electrical
will still work as long as it ain't broke.

Mark



FWIW I once had a newly appointed CPA that worked for me. He did not
understand the importance of using the next sequentially numbered box of
invoices when the previous box was empty.

Kind of like the woman who asked my friend the teller, "what do mean,
I still have checks" when she was told she was over drawn.


I think you may have missed my point. He, the CPA, was constantly
reminding me of his education and knowledge of all aspects of
accounting. It did mot make him right, just a mediocre accountant.

Twas an insult then, oh well.

No, not an insult just that he was not always as right as he though he was.
I know lots of those- - - - - Not just accountants either.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 20:51:27 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
Swingman wrote:
On 8/18/2013 7:20 PM, Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Look at it this way ... when one hot wire is negative, the other is
positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they
are "out of phase". IOW, 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot
wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. Guaranteed.


I'd rather look at it this way... When one wire is negative,
the other is positive. so the 2 wires complete the circuit together
becasue they are IN PHASE with each other. Guaranteed.

Nope.

In the US the transformer for most residential power taps one of the 3
phases in the power distribution system, which is why it is called
single phase, even though there are 2 hot legs.

The transformer center tap on the pole is grounded and also connected to
a wire called neutral. This provides two output voltages relative to
ground or neutral. Each is 120 V, but they are 180 degrees out of phase
with respect to each other.


I guess we can agree to disagree here. To me, the 2 120 volt conductors
are in phase, just at equal and opposite polarity at any given time. Which
is not the case when compared to conductors from either of the other
2 power distribution conductors, which truly are out of phase.
You can look at it that way if it makes sense to you, but the
maximum deflection from neutral at any point in time is NOT the same
on each wire. The positive and negative deflection from neutral AT A
POINT IN TIME - is NEVER equal, which it would be if the 2 sign waves
were "in phase" The maximum deflection + of neutral occurs 1 /120th
of a second before or behind the maximum - deflection from neutral in
a 60 hz sine wave - which is exactly 180 degrees out of "phase" or
"synch"

[Larry W[_3_]]

In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
(Larry W) wrote in :


I guess we can agree to disagree here. To me, the 2 120 volt conductors
are in phase, just at equal and opposite polarity at any given time.

But that is *by definition* out of phase.

Well, if that is your definition then you may as well say that any pair
of wires carrying current to a load in an AC circuit are 180d out of phase.
Makes just as much sense, no need to complicate things by bringing
up edison circuits or center-tapped transformers.


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

[Markem[_2_]]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 17:11:49 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:23:22 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:52:28 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 8/19/2013 12:55 PM, Bill wrote:

A relative told me there
were 3 hots at the pole (but he has a factory background, where 3-phase
in the norm).

The power transmission system, that feeds your transformer on the pole
outside your house, is indeed 3 phase, on the _input_ side of the
transformer, as I clearly stated earlier.

Not every where in the United States, the co-op to my house and over
the entire system is single phase, they have only single phase
generators at the power house. But I would bet that my cost per kilo
watt is cheaper that most.

Extremely rare, in the whole north american scheme of things - and
that means you are independent of the national grid.

It is a rural co-op, they're connected to the grid throygh the sub
stations. But they do not provide 3 phase power on the system to the
customers at all. It is a matter of upgrading costing more than the
"customer owners" could pay, and they do not have any large industrail
customers. So my rates are lower than than an Ameren customers in the
local area by quite a bit.

[Bill[_47_]]

Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Doug Miller wrote:
(Larry W) wrote in :

I guess we can agree to disagree here. To me, the 2 120 volt conductors
are in phase, just at equal and opposite polarity at any given time.
But that is *by definition* out of phase.
Well, if that is your definition then you may as well say that any pair
of wires carrying current to a load in an AC circuit are 180d out of phase.
Makes just as much sense, no need to complicate things by bringing
up edison circuits or center-tapped transformers.



This is a "group discussion'. Lots of people are reading the questions
and answers. I assure you I learned some
things I found interesting in the thread. Especially how "1-phase" is
transformed into two legs. What is the nature
of a transformer that does that? I assume it would have a long lifespan.

[Scott Lurndal]

writes:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:55:57 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Even a lot of industries with 3 phase power are running 120/240 for
lighting and office power, derived from a center tapped secondary
transformer connected to one leg of the 3 phase servive, rather than
running 120/208 or other "3 phase" power schemes.


Around here, most industrial locations run lighting at 277vac when
they have a 480v three-phase service.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:26:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:55:57 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Even a lot of industries with 3 phase power are running 120/240 for
lighting and office power, derived from a center tapped secondary
transformer connected to one leg of the 3 phase servive, rather than
running 120/208 or other "3 phase" power schemes.


Around here, most industrial locations run lighting at 277vac when
they have a 480v three-phase service.
In the plant where I spend 2 afternoons a week, the plant lighting is
all 277 and the office lighting is 120. MOST of the plant equipment is
3 phase. The office runs off a separate transformer - 120/240 CT

[Scott Lurndal]

writes:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:26:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:55:57 -0400, Bill
wrote:

Even a lot of industries with 3 phase power are running 120/240 for
lighting and office power, derived from a center tapped secondary
transformer connected to one leg of the 3 phase servive, rather than
running 120/208 or other "3 phase" power schemes.


Around here, most industrial locations run lighting at 277vac when
they have a 480v three-phase service.
In the plant where I spend 2 afternoons a week, the plant lighting is
all 277 and the office lighting is 120. MOST of the plant equipment is
3 phase. The office runs off a separate transformer - 120/240 CT

Most of the class-A office space around (silicon valley) here uses 277VAC
troffers or hanging (indirect) fluorescent fixtures; including the 1970's
vintage building I just moved from as well as the 2008 vintage building
I'm in now. The efficiency benefits over 120vac are significant in any
reasonably sized building.