OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.

Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am
considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left
tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw
also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports
legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.

I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus
other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.

Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also
considering a Laguna TSS.

The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however
it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.

The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50%
heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.

Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake
feature.

The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one
I would love to hear details.

Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a
sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade.
This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has
scoring blades and it has the riving knife.

Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.

Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about
$3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.

Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area
is interested, let me know.

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?


I have the SS Pro. Fit\finish pretty good. I think the extension table attachment could be improved. Kinda have to tweak it to get super even to table and then it needs adjust after time. My table isn't bolted down and isn't supposed to be mobile but I think that movement is what makes the table go out.

Set blade and fence sq once. Checked it a few times but has remained sq enough with lots of abuse and haven't had to readjust.

I like how easy the the riv knife assembly goes in and out when you need to do dados, etc. I like how easy it is to leave the blade guard in-place, it works well with no probs. I like how well the motor box hinges open easily (read Unisaw not). The dust collection is OK but I have to vacuum out the bottom now and then after lots of run.

If I was a cabinet guy doing sheet work that could use a scoring blade and sliding table I would consider the Laguna but for me, furniture, I use sa precision cross sled and wouldn't use the slider anyway.

Leon wrote:

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?



I am amazed that a Festool owner could find themselves in a dilemma like
this!

Laguna sure offers a lot of different saws. Here's a link in case
anyone else is curious:
http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws

I think Swingman would suggest going with a SawStop, huh? I cannot
advise, but hope you
get an opportunity to see a Laguna TSS. Maybe, it's "not all that"? : )

Bill

On 3/13/2013 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?



I am amazed that a Festool owner could find themselves in a dilemma like
this!

LOL


Laguna sure offers a lot of different saws. Here's a link in case
anyone else is curious:
http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws

The video's are very interesting to watch. FWIW about 6 years ago I
though I was upgrading and bought an 18" Rikon band saw. It was noisy,
it vibrated and build quality was not what I expected. I ordered one
sight unseen from a Woodcraft with the understanding that if I was not
happy with the saw I could return it. 3 weeks later I returned it.

I learned about the Laguna LT16HD band saw with its 10 point ceramic
guides and how those would help prevent noise and vibration. I bought
that saw and finally did get an upgrade. I would say that is is
probably better built than most any "cabinet" saw in the same price
range. The saw is a joy to use. And yes it was/still is the most
expensive piece of equipment in my shop.


I think Swingman would suggest going with a SawStop, huh? I cannot
advise, but hope you
get an opportunity to see a Laguna TSS. Maybe, it's "not all that"? : )

Bill

No Laguna TSS dealers in the Houston area. It too like the LT16HD would
be a sight unseen purchase. Not sure I would want to part with $6K
under those circumstances. And I might add, Euro table saws are a
totally different breed than the American style table saws. The fact
that the TSS is strictly right tilt is a strike against it as far as I
am concerned. I am sure I could get used to that but familiar has more
appeal to me at this point. I really don't want to have to relearn how
to operate a saw.

I looked at Hammer and their saw is a bit more appealing however it only
uses blades with 3 holes. I would have to replace 3 Forrest blades and
a Forrest Dado King set. And oddly many Euro style saws have no right
side miter slot. Removing the fence requires you to slide the fence to
the end of the table past the end of the front steel bar.

On 3/13/2013 6:49 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?


I have the SS Pro. Fit\finish pretty good. I think the extension table attachment could be improved. Kinda have to tweak it to get super even to table and then it needs adjust after time. My table isn't bolted down and isn't supposed to be mobile but I think that movement is what makes the table go out.

My right extension table is not perfectly flush with the saw table
either and for the past 14 or so years that has not mattered, it is
close enough to not affect cuts.

I got an e-mail from the SawStop people concerning the right table
extension legs. He indicated that the legs are there strictly to
prevent some one from leaning on the table and tipping the saw. Other
wise they are not needed. I was always under the impression that they
were to help support the right table extension. I went to a local
dealer today and gave this a test. I lifted the end of the Industrial
unit. Let me rephrase that, I attempted to lift the table extension.
With one arm I tried to lift the table extension to see if I could feel
any give or play in the table. I felt absolutely no movement at all,
not a hint of wiggle at all. It was like the legs were bolted to the
floor. I am quite certain that the legs were tightened down to the
floor more than necessary so I believe that they and the fence rails
were carrying a lot of the weight of that 700lb+ saw.




Set blade and fence sq once. Checked it a few times but has remained sq enough with lots of abuse and haven't had to readjust.

Good to know.


I like how easy the the riv knife assembly goes in and out when you need to do dados, etc. I like how easy it is to leave the blade guard in-place, it works well with no probs. I like how well the motor box hinges open easily (read Unisaw not). The dust collection is OK but I have to vacuum out the bottom now and then after lots of run.

I have played with that feature and it certainly would not be an excuse
to not replace the riving knife after cutting a dado.


If I was a cabinet guy doing sheet work that could use a scoring blade and sliding table I would consider the Laguna but for me, furniture, I use sa precision cross sled and wouldn't use the slider anyway.

I find that simply running the panel through with the blade raised 1/8"
and then raising the blade and running the panel through again creates
the same results as a scoring knife when simply cross cutting panels. I
currently use an MJ splitter and it works well when I remember to
replace it after making a scoring cut but a couple of weeks ago I
neglected to replace it when making the through cut and had a situation
occur. No harm this time, it was not a surprise and I was ready for it
but a scoring knife would solve 99% of those problems.

Thanks for the feedback.

On 3/13/2013 7:04 PM, Leon wrote:


OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.

Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am
considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left
tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw
also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports
legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.

I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus
other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.

Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also
considering a Laguna TSS.

The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however
it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.

The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50%
heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.

Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake
feature.

The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one
I would love to hear details.

Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a
sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade.
This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has
scoring blades and it has the riving knife.

Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.

Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about
$3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.

Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area
is interested, let me know.

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?


Not sure that I trust something that has that many rollers and weight
out the back and a big sheet . I know the cabinet is heavy, but would
you really trust it.. I would at least put a leg down, just one, make it
adjustable ...

curious what you finally go with.




--
Jeff

On 3/13/2013 7:37 PM, Leon wrote:
....

... Euro table saws are a totally
different breed than the American style table saws. The fact that the
TSS is strictly right tilt is a strike against it as far as I am
concerned. ...

I looked at Hammer and their saw is a bit more appealing however it only
uses blades with 3 holes. I would have to replace 3 Forrest blades and a
Forrest Dado King set....

You also will want to double-check on any Euro-approved saw if want to
use a dado set. Dodo sets are not allowed under the EU OSHA-equivalent
and my understanding is that's enforced by the arbor length being too
short for them. That is what have been told but I don't have direct
firsthand knowledge just I'd recommend checking to be sure...

For panel work the sliding table design is a godsend if the table is
large-enough for the type of work one normally does. I can't help you
on the Laguna in particular but can speak of the utility of the design
having had access to a large (and very old) Baxter & Whitney when in
Lynchburg.


http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=13508

--

On 3/13/2013 9:39 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/13/2013 7:37 PM, Leon wrote:
...

... Euro table saws are a totally
different breed than the American style table saws. The fact that the
TSS is strictly right tilt is a strike against it as far as I am
concerned. ...

I looked at Hammer and their saw is a bit more appealing however it only
uses blades with 3 holes. I would have to replace 3 Forrest blades and a
Forrest Dado King set....

You also will want to double-check on any Euro-approved saw if want to
use a dado set. Dodo sets are not allowed under the EU OSHA-equivalent
and my understanding is that's enforced by the arbor length being too
short for them. That is what have been told but I don't have direct
firsthand knowledge just I'd recommend checking to be sure...

For panel work the sliding table design is a godsend if the table is
large-enough for the type of work one normally does. I can't help you
on the Laguna in particular but can speak of the utility of the design
having had access to a large (and very old) Baxter & Whitney when in
Lynchburg.


http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=13508

--
Yep, that's what I heard, makes no sense, since a regular blade can be
lowered to not cut all the way through.

The euro union considers it dangerous to have a blade not come up
through the piece. Yet a scoring blade is just that, and a regular blade
can be lowered to not cut all the way through.

I think their reasoning is that you can't see the blade, while a riving
knife or split,, or full cut you can see the cut..
if they were that worried, they could put a colored strip down the table
embeded so that you see where not to put your fingers.

There's no shortage of weenies on both sides of the pond.

--
Jeff

On 3/13/2013 8:15 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/13/2013 7:04 PM, Leon wrote:


OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.

Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am
considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left
tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw
also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports
legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.

I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus
other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.

Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also
considering a Laguna TSS.

The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however
it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.

The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50%
heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.

Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake
feature.

The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one
I would love to hear details.

Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a
sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade.
This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has
scoring blades and it has the riving knife.

Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.

Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about
$3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.

Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area
is interested, let me know.

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?


Not sure that I trust something that has that many rollers and weight
out the back and a big sheet . I know the cabinet is heavy, but would
you really trust it.. I would at least put a leg down, just one, make it
adjustable ...

Would trust it and do trust it, I have been using this 15 roller
extension table for 14 years. I could probably sit on it, it has a
200lb weight capacity. Absolutely the best out feed I have ever seen.

This is not new for me, I want it on the new saw also.

http://www.htcproductsinc.com/outrs.html

On 3/13/2013 8:39 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/13/2013 7:37 PM, Leon wrote:
...

... Euro table saws are a totally
different breed than the American style table saws. The fact that the
TSS is strictly right tilt is a strike against it as far as I am
concerned. ...

I looked at Hammer and their saw is a bit more appealing however it only
uses blades with 3 holes. I would have to replace 3 Forrest blades and a
Forrest Dado King set....

You also will want to double-check on any Euro-approved saw if want to
use a dado set. Dodo sets are not allowed under the EU OSHA-equivalent
and my understanding is that's enforced by the arbor length being too
short for them. That is what have been told but I don't have direct
firsthand knowledge just I'd recommend checking to be sure...

That is true in some cased if you buy the saw over there. Saws sold
here, at least the Laguna have been, modified if necessary to accept
dado sets.

Some brands are imported and sold as it so to speak. IIRC Hammer is
one. While it does not use the traditional stacked dado set it does
have a special blade that makes a wide cut. for example,

http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-0...text-0320.html

For panel work the sliding table design is a godsend if the table is
large-enough for the type of work one normally does. I can't help you
on the Laguna in particular but can speak of the utility of the design
having had access to a large (and very old) Baxter & Whitney when in
Lynchburg.

The Laguna will cross cut 48" and comes with a 48" long sliding table
fence so cutting a 4x8 sheet into 2 4x4 sheets would not be an issue.

BUT I use a track saw these days to make cuts like that and those cuts
are not often made on the table saw any more.



http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=13508

--

On 3/13/2013 8:51 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 3/13/2013 9:39 PM, dpb wrote:
On 3/13/2013 7:37 PM, Leon wrote:
...

... Euro table saws are a totally
different breed than the American style table saws. The fact that the
TSS is strictly right tilt is a strike against it as far as I am
concerned. ...

I looked at Hammer and their saw is a bit more appealing however it only
uses blades with 3 holes. I would have to replace 3 Forrest blades and a
Forrest Dado King set....

You also will want to double-check on any Euro-approved saw if want to
use a dado set. Dodo sets are not allowed under the EU OSHA-equivalent
and my understanding is that's enforced by the arbor length being too
short for them. That is what have been told but I don't have direct
firsthand knowledge just I'd recommend checking to be sure...

For panel work the sliding table design is a godsend if the table is
large-enough for the type of work one normally does. I can't help you
on the Laguna in particular but can speak of the utility of the design
having had access to a large (and very old) Baxter & Whitney when in
Lynchburg.


http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=13508

--
Yep, that's what I heard, makes no sense, since a regular blade can be
lowered to not cut all the way through.

The euro union considers it dangerous to have a blade not come up
through the piece. Yet a scoring blade is just that, and a regular blade
can be lowered to not cut all the way through.

I think that the focus on the dado blade in Europe is actually the
multiple stacks of blades rather than not cutting all the way through.
If a stacked dado set is not properly tightened the blades could
continue to spin after the arbor has stopped spinning. Blades spin in
the same direction that the nut spins when it is removed, this could
spin the arbor nut off of the arbor and that would not be good
especially if the operator started the saw back up. and in many cases
with stacked sets the nut is not threaded far on the arbor.

A single washer and nut on a single blade regardless of thickness can
exert a lot of pressure. Once you start adding multiple surfaces the
pressure has to be increased to prevent the possibility of the separate
blades spinning on the arbor. Add to that a bit of grease or dust on
the chippers and the inner blades could spin even easier.





I think their reasoning is that you can't see the blade, while a riving
knife or split,, or full cut you can see the cut..
if they were that worried, they could put a colored strip down the table
embeded so that you see where not to put your fingers.

There's no shortage of weenies on both sides of the pond.

"Leon" wrote in message
...


Some brands are imported and sold as it so to speak. IIRC Hammer is one.
While it does not use the traditional stacked dado set it does have a
special blade that makes a wide cut. for example,

http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-0...text-0320.html

I've looked at those in the past and they are pretty interesting... It was
at a show in NJ at the Felder/Hammer booth where Frank Klausz was messing
around with one of the jointer/planers. It looks like those blades would
leave a nice flat bottom and with replaceable cutters and nickers should
make nice clean cuts for a long time. Likely a sound investment for a
commercial shop...

It looks like Klausz is a spokesman for Felder/Hammer... in NJ I thought he
was just playing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7H7oVWe6s

On 3/13/2013 6:04 PM, Leon wrote:


OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.

Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am
considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left
tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw
also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports
legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.

I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus
other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.

Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also
considering a Laguna TSS.

The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however
it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.

The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50%
heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.

Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake
feature.

The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one
I would love to hear details.

Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a
sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade.
This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has
scoring blades and it has the riving knife.

Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.

Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about
$3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.

Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area
is interested, let me know.

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?



Something that I have learned about the SawStop. The stop triggers only
if there is direct or indirect contact with the operator.

What this means is that you can cut through a nail as long as you are
not touching the end of the nail when it is cut. If you are touching
the nail, you complete the circuit and it trips. Wet wood will not
trigger the stop unless it is wet enough to provide an electrical path
to your hand.

I plan to find out if the electrical path could also be the table top.

There is a bypass mode to prevent a trigger and the bypass mode is used
to test cut a material to see if the material will cause a trigger when
in protection mode. Basically if you are cutting a material that may
complete an electrical circuit to your hand test cut it in bypass
several times and see if the saw detects you. If not run the material
in protected mode. If it detects you, run the saw in protection mode.
The saw always reverts back to protected mode after the motor switch is
turned off. As long as the motor is running the saw remains in bypass mode.

The stop cartridge records the type condition that causes the trigger.
At least at this time if you sent the cartridge to them and it indicates
that it detected a direct flesh contact SawStop will replace the
cartridge at no charge.

The blade that has been embedded in the cartridge may not be destroyed.
It is advised that an inexpensively made blade be discarded while a
better quality blade may only need to be trued and teeth replaced as
needed. I have seen pictures of some of the blades after being pulled
out of the stop, if you did not know otherwise you would not be able to
see any damage. I suspect the most damage is that the blade would no
longer be flat and would need to be re-flattened.

Just a FYI

On 3/13/2013 9:47 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...


Some brands are imported and sold as it so to speak. IIRC Hammer is
one. While it does not use the traditional stacked dado set it does
have a special blade that makes a wide cut. for example,

http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-0...text-0320.html


I've looked at those in the past and they are pretty interesting... It
was at a show in NJ at the Felder/Hammer booth where Frank Klausz was
messing around with one of the jointer/planers. It looks like those
blades would leave a nice flat bottom and with replaceable cutters and
nickers should make nice clean cuts for a long time. Likely a sound
investment for a commercial shop...

Yeah those "blades" apparently operate much like a sharper blade




It looks like Klausz is a spokesman for Felder/Hammer... in NJ I thought
he was just playing!


And or this guy. This is a good one too. He rides the sliding table
about half way through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7H7oVWe6s

"Leon" wrote in message
...


And or this guy. This is a good one too. He rides the sliding table about
half way through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70

He sets a bad example for my kids. ;~)

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

And or this guy. This is a good one too. He rides the sliding table
about half way through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70

He sets a bad example for my kids. ;~)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
We represent some German instrument companies who have
guys in marketing/sales who sound just like this guy.

Must be the water.

Lew

On 3/13/13 10:10 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/13/2013 6:04 PM, Leon wrote:


OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.

Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am
considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left
tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw
also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports
legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.

I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus
other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.

Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also
considering a Laguna TSS.

The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however
it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.

The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50%
heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.

Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake
feature.

The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one
I would love to hear details.

Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a
sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade.
This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has
scoring blades and it has the riving knife.

Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.

Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about
$3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.

Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area
is interested, let me know.

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?



Something that I have learned about the SawStop. The stop triggers only
if there is direct or indirect contact with the operator.

What this means is that you can cut through a nail as long as you are
not touching the end of the nail when it is cut. If you are touching
the nail, you complete the circuit and it trips. Wet wood will not
trigger the stop unless it is wet enough to provide an electrical path
to your hand.

I plan to find out if the electrical path could also be the table top.

There is a bypass mode to prevent a trigger and the bypass mode is used
to test cut a material to see if the material will cause a trigger when
in protection mode. Basically if you are cutting a material that may
complete an electrical circuit to your hand test cut it in bypass
several times and see if the saw detects you. If not run the material
in protected mode. If it detects you, run the saw in protection mode.
The saw always reverts back to protected mode after the motor switch is
turned off. As long as the motor is running the saw remains in bypass
mode.

The stop cartridge records the type condition that causes the trigger.
At least at this time if you sent the cartridge to them and it indicates
that it detected a direct flesh contact SawStop will replace the
cartridge at no charge.

The blade that has been embedded in the cartridge may not be destroyed.
It is advised that an inexpensively made blade be discarded while a
better quality blade may only need to be trued and teeth replaced as
needed. I have seen pictures of some of the blades after being pulled
out of the stop, if you did not know otherwise you would not be able to
see any damage. I suspect the most damage is that the blade would no
longer be flat and would need to be re-flattened.

Just a FYI


Unless you're dead-set on getting the sawstop technology, the Laguna is
a no-brainer to me. If money isn't the real factor here, Laguna is just
a much better machine, don't you think?

How long have you gone without cutting off a finger? Who knows maybe you
already have and that's why you're looking at the sawstop. But someone
who's gone as long as you have in a shop and still can count to ten has
been practicing safe techniques with the table saw.

That Laguna with the sled just make things even safer, imo.
The scoring blade, alone, is worth the price of admission in my book.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/14/2013 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/13/13 10:10 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/13/2013 6:04 PM, Leon wrote:


OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.

Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am
considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left
tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw
also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports
legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.

I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus
other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.

Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also
considering a Laguna TSS.

The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however
it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.

The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50%
heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.

Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake
feature.

The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one
I would love to hear details.

Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a
sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade.
This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has
scoring blades and it has the riving knife.

Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.

Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about
$3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.

Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area
is interested, let me know.

Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?



Something that I have learned about the SawStop. The stop triggers only
if there is direct or indirect contact with the operator.

What this means is that you can cut through a nail as long as you are
not touching the end of the nail when it is cut. If you are touching
the nail, you complete the circuit and it trips. Wet wood will not
trigger the stop unless it is wet enough to provide an electrical path
to your hand.

I plan to find out if the electrical path could also be the table top.

There is a bypass mode to prevent a trigger and the bypass mode is used
to test cut a material to see if the material will cause a trigger when
in protection mode. Basically if you are cutting a material that may
complete an electrical circuit to your hand test cut it in bypass
several times and see if the saw detects you. If not run the material
in protected mode. If it detects you, run the saw in protection mode.
The saw always reverts back to protected mode after the motor switch is
turned off. As long as the motor is running the saw remains in bypass
mode.

The stop cartridge records the type condition that causes the trigger.
At least at this time if you sent the cartridge to them and it indicates
that it detected a direct flesh contact SawStop will replace the
cartridge at no charge.

The blade that has been embedded in the cartridge may not be destroyed.
It is advised that an inexpensively made blade be discarded while a
better quality blade may only need to be trued and teeth replaced as
needed. I have seen pictures of some of the blades after being pulled
out of the stop, if you did not know otherwise you would not be able to
see any damage. I suspect the most damage is that the blade would no
longer be flat and would need to be re-flattened.

Just a FYI


Unless you're dead-set on getting the sawstop technology, the Laguna is
a no-brainer to me. If money isn't the real factor here, Laguna is just
a much better machine, don't you think?

Well actually the Laguna is built in Bulgaria. That may or may not mean
anything, probably as good as a better Asian knock off. FWIW I love my
Laguna BS however Laguna is not a manufacturer of woodworking machinery
rather an importer that has the machines built to their specifications
much like many other brands these days. I will say that the Laguna
machines do have very nice and well thought out tweaks. I gave the
Industrial SawStop a close look under the hood yesterday and it is much
more impressive than the Pro version. Depending on how the saws are
equipped the industrial is at least 200 lbs heavier and that according
to SawStop is in the 3 extra inches in the depth of the top and in the
trunnion. The trunnion and every thing in between is all cast iron on
the industrial where as only the trunnion tilt and supports are cast
iron on the pro. Every thing in between is a welded torsion bar system
of some sort. Don't quote me on that description.



How long have you gone without cutting off a finger?

It has now been almost 24 years since I cut half my thumb off.

Who knows maybe you
already have and that's why you're looking at the sawstop. But someone
who's gone as long as you have in a shop and still can count to ten has
been practicing safe techniques with the table saw.

I can assure you not every one always practices safe woodworking habits.
I have talked to many many people that claimed to follow the rules and
something happens. I am getting older and I don't want to give up
woodworking because of the possibility of making a mistake again. It
would tickle me to death should I buy the SawStop that I never trip the
brake from doing something questionable.



That Laguna with the sled just make things even safer, imo.

Absolutely and the reason that it is on the table of saws to consider.
The biggest drawback is that with its "bolted on steel out feed" the saw
becomes 32" deeper and while I do have room that is about 26" farther
out than my current fold down out feed which would not transfer over
because of the sliding table. Then there is the right tilt which I am
not fond of. The mobility kit that requires the front and back wheel to
be jacked up and down. I would be moving the saw more than I would be
benefiting from the sliding table, every day I work with the saw.

Deep down I think the Laguna would be a great step up but I don't want
to loose sight of why I am upgrading to start with. Safety is my number
one concern.

I will be kicking this around more, I have not definitely decided one
way or another but the Industrial SawStop is looking better with less to
have to learn and most all of my jigs and fixtures would work with it.
It is an all new ball game with the Laguna.



The scoring blade, alone, is worth the price of admission in my book.
That would certainly save me from making two passes when cross
cutting plywood when the cut is not going to be buried in a dado.


Do I want curtain A, B, or C?...

On 3/14/13 1:15 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/14/2013 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:


How long have you gone without cutting off a finger?

It has now been almost 24 years since I cut half my thumb off.

Who knows maybe you
already have and that's why you're looking at the sawstop. But someone
who's gone as long as you have in a shop and still can count to ten has
been practicing safe techniques with the table saw.

I can assure you not every one always practices safe woodworking habits.
I have talked to many many people that claimed to follow the rules and
something happens. I am getting older and I don't want to give up
woodworking because of the possibility of making a mistake again. It
would tickle me to death should I buy the SawStop that I never trip the
brake from doing something questionable.



That Laguna with the sled just make things even safer, imo.

Absolutely and the reason that it is on the table of saws to consider.
The biggest drawback is that with its "bolted on steel out feed" the saw
becomes 32" deeper and while I do have room that is about 26" farther
out than my current fold down out feed which would not transfer over
because of the sliding table. Then there is the right tilt which I am
not fond of. The mobility kit that requires the front and back wheel to
be jacked up and down. I would be moving the saw more than I would be
benefiting from the sliding table, every day I work with the saw.

Deep down I think the Laguna would be a great step up but I don't want
to loose sight of why I am upgrading to start with. Safety is my number
one concern.

I will be kicking this around more, I have not definitely decided one
way or another but the Industrial SawStop is looking better with less to
have to learn and most all of my jigs and fixtures would work with it.
It is an all new ball game with the Laguna.



The scoring blade, alone, is worth the price of admission in my book.
That would certainly save me from making two passes when cross
cutting plywood when the cut is not going to be buried in a dado.


Do I want curtain A, B, or C?...


The saying "sounds like you've already made your choice" comes to mind.
:-)
In this particular case, imo, that choice is a wise one.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Leon wrote:


Do I want curtain A, B, or C?...

If B isn't made for people like you, then who? IIRC, the Industrial SS
has a few (3) extra inches of table too. You are smart to have
considered your existing investment in blades and other assessories.
That would seem to narrow down the field. I think you still get an HP
option (with a higher limit on B, if you can use it). Good luck with
whatever you choose!

Bill

On 3/14/2013 1:57 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/14/13 1:15 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/14/2013 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:


How long have you gone without cutting off a finger?

It has now been almost 24 years since I cut half my thumb off.

Who knows maybe you
already have and that's why you're looking at the sawstop. But someone
who's gone as long as you have in a shop and still can count to ten has
been practicing safe techniques with the table saw.

I can assure you not every one always practices safe woodworking habits.
I have talked to many many people that claimed to follow the rules and
something happens. I am getting older and I don't want to give up
woodworking because of the possibility of making a mistake again. It
would tickle me to death should I buy the SawStop that I never trip the
brake from doing something questionable.



That Laguna with the sled just make things even safer, imo.

Absolutely and the reason that it is on the table of saws to consider.
The biggest drawback is that with its "bolted on steel out feed" the saw
becomes 32" deeper and while I do have room that is about 26" farther
out than my current fold down out feed which would not transfer over
because of the sliding table. Then there is the right tilt which I am
not fond of. The mobility kit that requires the front and back wheel to
be jacked up and down. I would be moving the saw more than I would be
benefiting from the sliding table, every day I work with the saw.

Deep down I think the Laguna would be a great step up but I don't want
to loose sight of why I am upgrading to start with. Safety is my number
one concern.

I will be kicking this around more, I have not definitely decided one
way or another but the Industrial SawStop is looking better with less to
have to learn and most all of my jigs and fixtures would work with it.
It is an all new ball game with the Laguna.



The scoring blade, alone, is worth the price of admission in my book.
That would certainly save me from making two passes when cross
cutting plywood when the cut is not going to be buried in a dado.


Do I want curtain A, B, or C?...


The saying "sounds like you've already made your choice" comes to mind.
:-)
In this particular case, imo, that choice is a wise one.

It sounds like I have already made my choice, I wish! ;~) First choice
was the pro SawStop, then the Laguna, and now the Industrial....

On 3/14/2013 2:41 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


Do I want curtain A, B, or C?...

If B isn't made for people like you, then who? IIRC, the Industrial SS
has a few (3) extra inches of table too.

That absolutely appealed to me, the Pro SawStop actually looked like it
was smaller than my current saw. Perhaps the black paint vs the white
paint on my saw makes it look smaller. The industrial really looked
larger than 3 inches.

You are smart to have
considered your existing investment in blades and other assessories.

To the tune of about $1K


That would seem to narrow down the field. I think you still get an HP
option (with a higher limit on B, if you can use it). Good luck with
whatever you choose!

I can choose more HP although what I have, 3hp, will cut through a piece
of 5" thick Ipe with no hesitation, 2 passes, one on each side. Perhaps
if the saw was running 8 hours a day every day I would step up to 5hp.
But for me it is pointless.

"Bill" wrote in message ...


has a few (3) extra inches of table too. You are smart to have considered
your existing investment in blades and other assessories.

Seems to me that Forrest will modify blades for arbor size, etc. Might be
worth checking with them about this if that is one of the things keeping a
saw off the possibilities list.

John

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:eIGdnW2J0_nVr9
:


That absolutely appealed to me, the Pro SawStop actually looked like it
was smaller than my current saw. Perhaps the black paint vs the white
paint on my saw makes it look smaller. The industrial really looked
larger than 3 inches.
*trim*

Sometimes it's all about where that 3 inches is. I'd love to have another
3" behind the blade on my saw, as it is almost any cut requires some sort
of outfeed table.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Unless you're dead-set on getting the sawstop technology, the Laguna is a no-brainer to me. If money isn't the real factor here, Laguna is just a much better machine, don't you think?

I am a SS owner so surely some bias and I take nothing away from Laguna, they make good stuff. However, I have looked closely at all the saws out there and SS is not just an OK saw with a safety feature. It really is one of the best saws being built at that price, even with the extra cost for the brake.

For instance, I have used lots of Unisaws and PMs. The older ones are both reliable but quirky. The new ones were just not very impressive to me. Lots of short cuts in manufacturing and materials. The Laguna is great if you are doing cabinets and working with big sheets. Honestly, even the smoothest sliding table is more hassle than worth (in my experience) unless you need help with a large panel and maybe for cutting door parts. The SS is built right and works good and I think is a better saw than PM or Delta and as good as a Laguna except maybe in a super heavy duty cycle but maybe the Industrial matches up there also(of course I do own one so prideplays into some component of this opinion).

On 3/14/2013 4:52 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Unless you're dead-set on getting the sawstop technology, the Laguna is a no-brainer to me. If money isn't the real factor here, Laguna is just a much better machine, don't you think?

The SawStop technology was the primary reason to upgrade but I trading
what I have I want to get more than just the technology. No doubt the
Laguna is a good saw but I feel probably much better than I need. I do
cut lots of panels but have already got a solution for cutting panels on
a table using a track saw. So while the slider would be nice I think it
would take some getting use to and I typically have help with lifting
panels.


I am a SS owner so surely some bias and I take nothing away from Laguna, they make good stuff. However, I have looked closely at all the saws out there and SS is not just an OK saw with a safety feature. It really is one of the best saws being built at that price, even with the extra cost for the brake.

Well surly you are biased but from every thing I have heard and read,
you rightly so.

I recall the PM66 and it's massive trunnion, I got the same feel when
looking inside the Industrial SS. I think other than the technology and
the riving knife that the Pro version would be a lateral move for me
that will cost a little over $3K. I think with the industrial and an
extra $1K I get to actually move up in other areas too, bigger table.


For instance, I have used lots of Unisaws and PMs. The older ones are both reliable but quirky. The new ones were just not very impressive to me. Lots of short cuts in manufacturing and materials. The Laguna is great if you are doing cabinets and working with big sheets. Honestly, even the smoothest sliding table is more hassle than worth (in my experience) unless you need help with a large panel and maybe for cutting door parts. The SS is built right and works good and I think is a better saw than PM or Delta and as good as a Laguna except maybe in a super heavy duty cycle but maybe the Industrial matches up there also(of course I do own one so prideplays into some component of this opinion).


Thank you again for you points of view, I do appreciate the candid
comments.

On 3/14/2013 3:35 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:eIGdnW2J0_nVr9
:


That absolutely appealed to me, the Pro SawStop actually looked like it
was smaller than my current saw. Perhaps the black paint vs the white
paint on my saw makes it look smaller. The industrial really looked
larger than 3 inches.
*trim*

Sometimes it's all about where that 3 inches is. I'd love to have another
3" behind the blade on my saw, as it is almost any cut requires some sort
of outfeed table.

Puckdropper



Understood, but I was not even considering the area behind the blade. ;~)

Actallly it is .75" more in front of the blade, full up and 2.5" more
behind the blade, full up.

The back rail that supports the right extension table is about 3/16"
thick angle iron. Push come to shove I can build and hang an extension
off of that and perhaps add my rollers. Maybe.

On 3/14/2013 3:29 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message ...


has a few (3) extra inches of table too. You are smart to have
considered your existing investment in blades and other assessories.

Seems to me that Forrest will modify blades for arbor size, etc. Might
be worth checking with them about this if that is one of the things
keeping a saw off the possibilities list.

John


I am sure they could and that would be fine for my single blades. It
would not be possible with a stacked dado set as the blades must be off
set from each other so that their teeth will not touch one another.

The Felder/Hammer blades had 3 holes, the typical arbor hole plus 2 on
both sides of the hole. Once mounted on the arbor with or with out the
arbor nut if you turn the blade the motor turns too. The set up works
like a key on a motor shaft to keep the pulley from spinning. those saw
are really designed to have only 1 blade or cutter mounted at one time.