Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
|
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
"John Grossbohlin" wrote in
: Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...rs-blog/califo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner&utm_me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Woodworkin g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote:
"John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...rs-blog/califo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner&utm_me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Woodworkin g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
" wrote in
news On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote: "John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...tors-blog/cali fo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner&utm_ me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Woodwork in g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. I'm just giving my opinion. I believe that the main problem with the sawstop technology is that Stephen Gass looked at it as a get rich quick scheme. Of course that is fine if he can sell it to industry and consumers of all kinds. His heavy-handed sales techniques have offended everyone (just about), but that does not mean his invention(s) are bad, on the contrary. Patents were invented and instituted to promote inventions, enhance the public welfare (whatever), and give the inventor a just reward. I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 11 Jul 2012 17:22:39 GMT, Han wrote:
" wrote in news On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote: "John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...tors-blog/cali fo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner&utm_ me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Woodwork in g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. I'm just giving my opinion. Of course. Your opinion never seems to take the law into account, though. "If I were tyrant..." I believe that the main problem with the sawstop technology is that Stephen Gass looked at it as a get rich quick scheme. Of course that is fine if he can sell it to industry and consumers of all kinds. His heavy-handed sales techniques have offended everyone (just about), but that does not mean his invention(s) are bad, on the contrary. Patents were invented and instituted to promote inventions, enhance the public welfare (whatever), and give the inventor a just reward. We agree on this part. We don't agree about the solution. I'd rather do something that's, you know, legal (and moral). I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. It's only a "monopoly" if government forces it to be a monopoly. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. That's right. You lefties think it's OK to take someone's house to give to a shopping mall builder because they'll pay more taxes. Taking someone's IP, so the government can meddle more, isn't a big stretch, is it? |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
" wrote in
: On 11 Jul 2012 17:22:39 GMT, Han wrote: " wrote in news On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote: "John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...ditors-blog/ca li fo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner&ut m_ me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Woodwo rk in g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. I'm just giving my opinion. Of course. Your opinion never seems to take the law into account, though. "If I were tyrant..." I agree that sometimes it seems that way. In the vein of, there ought to be a law ... I believe that the main problem with the sawstop technology is that Stephen Gass looked at it as a get rich quick scheme. Of course that is fine if he can sell it to industry and consumers of all kinds. His heavy-handed sales techniques have offended everyone (just about), but that does not mean his invention(s) are bad, on the contrary. Patents were invented and instituted to promote inventions, enhance the public welfare (whatever), and give the inventor a just reward. We agree on this part. We don't agree about the solution. I'd rather do something that's, you know, legal (and moral). But there is a solution. If Gass's patents turn out to be a de facto monopoly, because the bills being discussed will absolutely require using his technologies (remember?) then government or whoever should set the maximum license fees. Or don't you remember that Gass really wants a lot? I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. It's only a "monopoly" if government forces it to be a monopoly. But if CA or the Consumer protection whatever issue rules or laws that require the technology, then "government forces it to be a monopoly". My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. That's right. You lefties think it's OK to take someone's house to give to a shopping mall builder because they'll pay more taxes. Taking someone's IP, so the government can meddle more, isn't a big stretch, is it? I didn't think the CT case was a very good one, and there are likely many more. Sometimes though, eminent domain is good. I'm sure you can find examples ... As for Gass's inventions, I'm sure that they'll eventually will come up with a way to remunerate him. After all, he is a lawyer ... As for "taking IP", most companies take their employees' IP very easily and fast. Just read the rules of employment. You have to have very good records to show that your invention was yours, derived at home, outside working hours, if you don't want "them" to take it. I believe that the "Auto-Analyzer" invention was such a case. And yes, I am of the opinion that an inventor should be rewarded for his/her efforts. Just not that it should be an exorbitant reward, thanks to lawyering, lobbying, and prescribing (with great emphasis on exorbitant - generous is enough). -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 11 Jul 2012 17:41:55 GMT, Han wrote:
" wrote in : On 11 Jul 2012 17:22:39 GMT, Han wrote: " wrote in news On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote: "John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...ditors-blog/ca li fo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner&ut m_ me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Woodwo rk in g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. I'm just giving my opinion. Of course. Your opinion never seems to take the law into account, though. "If I were tyrant..." I agree that sometimes it seems that way. In the vein of, there ought to be a law ... It often happens when the "unintended consequences" aren't taken into account. Bad things happen when one falls into the "just do something" mode. Usually, doing nothing is a better solution. I believe that the main problem with the sawstop technology is that Stephen Gass looked at it as a get rich quick scheme. Of course that is fine if he can sell it to industry and consumers of all kinds. His heavy-handed sales techniques have offended everyone (just about), but that does not mean his invention(s) are bad, on the contrary. Patents were invented and instituted to promote inventions, enhance the public welfare (whatever), and give the inventor a just reward. We agree on this part. We don't agree about the solution. I'd rather do something that's, you know, legal (and moral). But there is a solution. If Gass's patents turn out to be a de facto monopoly, because the bills being discussed will absolutely require using his technologies (remember?) then government or whoever should set the maximum license fees. Or don't you remember that Gass really wants a lot? No, the solution is for government to tell him to pound salt. He'll then drop the licensing fees to something more reasonable. ...or not and leave money on the table (saw). I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. It's only a "monopoly" if government forces it to be a monopoly. But if CA or the Consumer protection whatever issue rules or laws that require the technology, then "government forces it to be a monopoly". Well, there's the *real* problem that needs fixing! My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. That's right. You lefties think it's OK to take someone's house to give to a shopping mall builder because they'll pay more taxes. Taking someone's IP, so the government can meddle more, isn't a big stretch, is it? I didn't think the CT case was a very good one, and there are likely many more. Sometimes though, eminent domain is good. I'm sure you can find examples ... There are *many* that the Kelo decision let loose. ...and you want to widen the chasm even further. As for Gass's inventions, I'm sure that they'll eventually will come up with a way to remunerate him. After all, he is a lawyer ... "They"? Who's "they"? Why don't *we* let his invention stand on its own? Sure, I'd like to have a SawStop but I wasn't willing to pay 2x for it. A couple hundred, most probably. $2000? Not happening. As for "taking IP", most companies take their employees' IP very easily and fast. Just read the rules of employment. You have to have very good records to show that your invention was yours, derived at home, outside working hours, if you don't want "them" to take it. I believe that the "Auto-Analyzer" invention was such a case. They didn't *TAKE* anything. It's a contract, willingly entered into. There is a *big* difference! And yes, I am of the opinion that an inventor should be rewarded for his/her efforts. Just not that it should be an exorbitant reward, thanks to lawyering, lobbying, and prescribing (with great emphasis on exorbitant - generous is enough). Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
" wrote in
: On 11 Jul 2012 17:41:55 GMT, Han wrote: " wrote in m: On 11 Jul 2012 17:22:39 GMT, Han wrote: " wrote in news On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote: "John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo.../editors-blog/ ca li fo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner& ut m_ me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Wood wo rk in g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. I'm just giving my opinion. Of course. Your opinion never seems to take the law into account, though. "If I were tyrant..." I agree that sometimes it seems that way. In the vein of, there ought to be a law ... It often happens when the "unintended consequences" aren't taken into account. Bad things happen when one falls into the "just do something" mode. Usually, doing nothing is a better solution. Indeed, sometimes doing nothing is the best solution. I believe that the main problem with the sawstop technology is that Stephen Gass looked at it as a get rich quick scheme. Of course that is fine if he can sell it to industry and consumers of all kinds. His heavy-handed sales techniques have offended everyone (just about), but that does not mean his invention(s) are bad, on the contrary. Patents were invented and instituted to promote inventions, enhance the public welfare (whatever), and give the inventor a just reward. We agree on this part. We don't agree about the solution. I'd rather do something that's, you know, legal (and moral). But there is a solution. If Gass's patents turn out to be a de facto monopoly, because the bills being discussed will absolutely require using his technologies (remember?) then government or whoever should set the maximum license fees. Or don't you remember that Gass really wants a lot? No, the solution is for government to tell him to pound salt. He'll then drop the licensing fees to something more reasonable. ...or not and leave money on the table (saw). I don't know what the best course of action is. There are too many tablesaws in use by people who don't know how to handle them (I got lessons by my Craftsman what NOT to do. but it could have come out worse, and I had good insurance). For those people it would be good to have something like sawstop technology. While I don't really think that there ought to be laws imposing the Gass patents on all consumers, the approach of encouraging similar technology seems justifiable. But then we get into the problem of encouraging a de facto monopoly, and I would definitely be against that. I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. It's only a "monopoly" if government forces it to be a monopoly. But if CA or the Consumer protection whatever issue rules or laws that require the technology, then "government forces it to be a monopoly". Well, there's the *real* problem that needs fixing! I'd call it a conundrum if you would like to prevent the injuries but don't like Gass's prices. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. That's right. You lefties think it's OK to take someone's house to give to a shopping mall builder because they'll pay more taxes. Taking someone's IP, so the government can meddle more, isn't a big stretch, is it? I didn't think the CT case was a very good one, and there are likely many more. Sometimes though, eminent domain is good. I'm sure you can find examples ... There are *many* that the Kelo decision let loose. ...and you want to widen the chasm even further. ?? What chasm am I widening?? The Kelo decision has to regarded as an aberration. Especially after "they" decided not to do the project they initially proposed. As for Gass's inventions, I'm sure that they'll eventually will come up with a way to remunerate him. After all, he is a lawyer ... "They"? Who's "they"? Why don't *we* let his invention stand on its own? Sure, I'd like to have a SawStop but I wasn't willing to pay 2x for it. A couple hundred, most probably. $2000? Not happening. When (as may seem likely) the CA or Fed authorities mandate Gass-like technology, the license fees will need to be established. My TS is still OK. But if I were to buy a new one, I think SS is in the running. I'd have to price it carefully, though. Not anytime soon ... As for "taking IP", most companies take their employees' IP very easily and fast. Just read the rules of employment. You have to have very good records to show that your invention was yours, derived at home, outside working hours, if you don't want "them" to take it. I believe that the "Auto-Analyzer" invention was such a case. They didn't *TAKE* anything. It's a contract, willingly entered into. There is a *big* difference! If Joe working for Big Gadgets in the daytime makes something in the off- hours that he is then marketing as a viable competitor for Big Gadgets' product line, then I assume that Big Gadgets will want the rights. In the case of what became Auto-Analyzer, Big Gadgets was NOT successful. And yes, I am of the opinion that an inventor should be rewarded for his/her efforts. Just not that it should be an exorbitant reward, thanks to lawyering, lobbying, and prescribing (with great emphasis on exorbitant - generous is enough). Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 11 Jul 2012 20:01:58 GMT, Han wrote:
" wrote in : On 11 Jul 2012 17:41:55 GMT, Han wrote: " wrote in : On 11 Jul 2012 17:22:39 GMT, Han wrote: " wrote in news On 11 Jul 2012 12:54:59 GMT, Han wrote: "John Grossbohlin" wrote in : Blog references several LA Times articles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo.../editors-blog/ ca li fo rnia-closer-to-state-table-saw-regulations?utm_source=feedburner& ut m_ me dium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopularWoodworking+ %28Popular+Wood wo rk in g%29 The sawstop technology should be adopted by all TS manufacturers. How very "liberal" of you. Licensing fees allowing manufacture of the systems by all TS manufacturers should be set by law to 2.5% of manufacturing costs (or another arbitrary low number). None of the lobbying expenditures incurred by Stephen Gass or his coconspirators should be allowed to play any role. The Constitution forbids such "takings", but don't let that stop you. I'm just giving my opinion. Of course. Your opinion never seems to take the law into account, though. "If I were tyrant..." I agree that sometimes it seems that way. In the vein of, there ought to be a law ... It often happens when the "unintended consequences" aren't taken into account. Bad things happen when one falls into the "just do something" mode. Usually, doing nothing is a better solution. Indeed, sometimes doing nothing is the best solution. I believe that the main problem with the sawstop technology is that Stephen Gass looked at it as a get rich quick scheme. Of course that is fine if he can sell it to industry and consumers of all kinds. His heavy-handed sales techniques have offended everyone (just about), but that does not mean his invention(s) are bad, on the contrary. Patents were invented and instituted to promote inventions, enhance the public welfare (whatever), and give the inventor a just reward. We agree on this part. We don't agree about the solution. I'd rather do something that's, you know, legal (and moral). But there is a solution. If Gass's patents turn out to be a de facto monopoly, because the bills being discussed will absolutely require using his technologies (remember?) then government or whoever should set the maximum license fees. Or don't you remember that Gass really wants a lot? No, the solution is for government to tell him to pound salt. He'll then drop the licensing fees to something more reasonable. ...or not and leave money on the table (saw). I don't know what the best course of action is. There are too many tablesaws in use by people who don't know how to handle them (I got lessons by my Craftsman what NOT to do. but it could have come out worse, and I had good insurance). For those people it would be good to have something like sawstop technology. While I don't really think that there ought to be laws imposing the Gass patents on all consumers, the approach of encouraging similar technology seems justifiable. But then we get into the problem of encouraging a de facto monopoly, and I would definitely be against that. It's not in *my* job description to make you "safe". It shouldn't be Congress', either. Deal with it yourself. I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. It's only a "monopoly" if government forces it to be a monopoly. But if CA or the Consumer protection whatever issue rules or laws that require the technology, then "government forces it to be a monopoly". Well, there's the *real* problem that needs fixing! I'd call it a conundrum if you would like to prevent the injuries but don't like Gass's prices. No, the real problem is that government is sticking its big fat nose in my life. Let me decide what Gass' invention is worth. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. That's right. You lefties think it's OK to take someone's house to give to a shopping mall builder because they'll pay more taxes. Taking someone's IP, so the government can meddle more, isn't a big stretch, is it? I didn't think the CT case was a very good one, and there are likely many more. Sometimes though, eminent domain is good. I'm sure you can find examples ... There are *many* that the Kelo decision let loose. ...and you want to widen the chasm even further. ?? What chasm am I widening?? The Kelo decision has to regarded as an aberration. Especially after "they" decided not to do the project they initially proposed. It's *NOT* an aberration. It's the law of the land, and has been used *many* times to steal land from people since. ...and you want to use it to steal Gass' IP. As for Gass's inventions, I'm sure that they'll eventually will come up with a way to remunerate him. After all, he is a lawyer ... "They"? Who's "they"? Why don't *we* let his invention stand on its own? Sure, I'd like to have a SawStop but I wasn't willing to pay 2x for it. A couple hundred, most probably. $2000? Not happening. When (as may seem likely) the CA or Fed authorities mandate Gass-like technology, the license fees will need to be established. A "taking". My TS is still OK. But if I were to buy a new one, I think SS is in the running. I'd have to price it carefully, though. Not anytime soon ... I bought mine three years ago. I didn't buy SS because it wasn't worth the 2x price. If I bought today, given the same choices, I'd *certainly* not put money in Gass' pocket. I don't deal with scum. As for "taking IP", most companies take their employees' IP very easily and fast. Just read the rules of employment. You have to have very good records to show that your invention was yours, derived at home, outside working hours, if you don't want "them" to take it. I believe that the "Auto-Analyzer" invention was such a case. They didn't *TAKE* anything. It's a contract, willingly entered into. There is a *big* difference! If Joe working for Big Gadgets in the daytime makes something in the off- hours that he is then marketing as a viable competitor for Big Gadgets' product line, then I assume that Big Gadgets will want the rights. In the case of what became Auto-Analyzer, Big Gadgets was NOT successful. If Joe signed the contract, it's a contract. It really is that simple. And yes, I am of the opinion that an inventor should be rewarded for his/her efforts. Just not that it should be an exorbitant reward, thanks to lawyering, lobbying, and prescribing (with great emphasis on exorbitant - generous is enough). Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Maybe having public policy in lawyer's hands is a comforting thought to you but it certainly gives me the willies. |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
Han wrote:
I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
wrote in message ... On 11 Jul 2012 20:01:58 GMT, Han wrote: It's not in *my* job description to make you "safe". It shouldn't be Congress', either. Deal with it yourself. Some will... most wouldn't due to the up front cost for something that they don't think THEY need. Remember, everyone is above average and invulnerable... just ask them! Some have a change of heart. For example, a friend of mine, a well known professional who teaches, writes for FWW and does DVDs for them, got nicked a few months ago when something slipped on a saw in a shop not his own. Though having been a professional for decades, and this being his first incident of it's kind, he decided to get a Saw Stop to replace his existing saw. His existing saw was a pretty good one in terms of safety (relatively new with a riving knife) but after the experience he felt justified in the change. Free choice should remain the standard with a healthy dose of instruction thrown in. I also keep in mind that if something feels unsafe it probably is! John |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:39:17 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On 11 Jul 2012 20:01:58 GMT, Han wrote: It's not in *my* job description to make you "safe". It shouldn't be Congress', either. Deal with it yourself. Some will... most wouldn't due to the up front cost for something that they don't think THEY need. Remember, everyone is above average and invulnerable... just ask them! Yes, but that's why we have this thing called "liberty". *You* choose what's good for you. It's not so good when you decide for your neighbor. Some have a change of heart. For example, a friend of mine, a well known professional who teaches, writes for FWW and does DVDs for them, got nicked a few months ago when something slipped on a saw in a shop not his own. Though having been a professional for decades, and this being his first incident of it's kind, he decided to get a Saw Stop to replace his existing saw. His existing saw was a pretty good one in terms of safety (relatively new with a riving knife) but after the experience he felt justified in the change. Good for him. Free choice should remain the standard with a healthy dose of instruction thrown in. I also keep in mind that if something feels unsafe it probably is! Absolutely agree. I haven't use my RAS in a couple of decades. I got to feeling unsafe when ripping with it. I've since bought a table saw and now have space for both, so will probably set it up for crosscutting. OTOH, nothing in this world is perfectly safe. We should stop pretending we can make it so. ...or should even try. |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
|
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
wrote in message ... On 11 Jul 2012 20:01:58 GMT, Han wrote: It's not in *my* job description to make you "safe". It shouldn't be Congress', either. Deal with it yourself. Some will... most wouldn't due to the up front cost for something that they don't think THEY need. Remember, everyone is above average and invulnerable... just ask them! Some have a change of heart. For example, a friend of mine, a well known professional who teaches, writes for FWW and does DVDs for them, got nicked a few months ago when something slipped on a saw in a shop not his own. Though having been a professional for decades, and this being his first incident of it's kind, he decided to get a Saw Stop to replace his existing saw. His existing saw was a pretty good one in terms of safety (relatively new with a riving knife) but after the experience he felt justified in the change. Free choice should remain the standard with a healthy dose of instruction thrown in. I also keep in mind that if something feels unsafe it probably is! There, but for the grace of the woodworking gods, go most of us. Well put... -- www.ewoodshop.com |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 11 Jul 2012 17:41:55 GMT, Han wrote:
But there is a solution. If Gass's patents turn out to be a de facto monopoly, because the bills being discussed will absolutely require using his technologies (remember?) then government or whoever should set the maximum license fees. Or don't you remember that Gass really wants a lot? Such an act would play absolute havoc with the capitalist ideals of the US nation. For all the screaming that people do about Gass trying to get his invention mandated, the shrieking of the capitalists so affected by such an act by government setting a maximum price would be deafening. Can you spell PRECIDENT! |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
Dave writes:
On 11 Jul 2012 17:41:55 GMT, Han wrote: But there is a solution. If Gass's patents turn out to be a de facto monopoly, because the bills being discussed will absolutely require using his technologies (remember?) then government or whoever should set the maximum license fees. Or don't you remember that Gass really wants a lot? Such an act would play absolute havoc with the capitalist ideals of the US nation. For all the screaming that people do about Gass trying to get his invention mandated, the shrieking of the capitalists so affected by such an act by government setting a maximum price would be deafening. Can you spell PRECIDENT! Yes, it is spelled precedent. The government of the United States has a long history of setting prices (called price controls) in the past. For example, President Nixon imposed price controls on August 15, 1971 finally ending in 1973. :-) |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
"Dave" wrote Can you spell PRECIDENT! No, I can not. Neither my dictionary nor spell checker think that is a word. The spellings gods are unhappy with you. I assume you mean Precedent. I looked up precident, The dictionary never heard of this word. I am not a net nanny or a a compulsive spell guy. But when people start talking about spelling on the net, it is some sort of instant karma. Don't understand it, it just happens to me, you and others. (I corrected two spelling errors in this message.) ;-) |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:08:58 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
I assume you mean Precedent. On 12 Jul 2012 00:06:34 GMT, (Scott Lurndal) Yes, it is spelled precedent. Perhaps the real *precedent* here is that you two spelling nerds need to go out and get real lives. |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
: Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
"HeyBub" wrote in
m: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 7/11/2012 7:23 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:08:58 -0400, "Lee Michaels" I assume you mean Precedent. On 12 Jul 2012 00:06:34 GMT, (Scott Lurndal) Yes, it is spelled precedent. Perhaps the real *precedent* here is that you two spelling nerds need to go out and get real lives. Hmmm ... You really are in a lousy mood today, more so than normal. Pax Where have I heard that before? -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 12 Jul 2012 01:04:51 GMT, Han wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. If the government does require SS, what makes you think there will be any negotiations? Gass wins, takes his marbles and everyone else goes home. He and his lobbyists have grins on their faces. |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 12 Jul 2012 01:06:38 GMT, Han wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in om: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? The telephone companies were/are regulated monopolies. Totally different animals. |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
|
#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:26:40 -0500, Swingman wrote:
Hmmm ... You really are in a lousy mood today, more so than normal. Pax Where have I heard that before? Hey! You go find your own criticisms instead of filching mine. |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:50:57 -0400, Bill wrote:
wrote: On 12 Jul 2012 01:06:38 GMT, Han wrote: "HeyBub" wrote in m: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? The telephone companies were/are regulated monopolies. Totally different animals. So are newspaper publishers, record companies, and American car makers. Make sense, please. |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:26:50 -0400, Bill wrote:
wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:50:57 -0400, Bill wrote: zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On 12 Jul 2012 01:06:38 GMT, Han wrote: "HeyBub" wrote in m: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? The telephone companies were/are regulated monopolies. Totally different animals. So are newspaper publishers, record companies, and American car makers. Make sense, please. Due to VoIP, Skype, etc.. telephone companies aren't what they used to be. They have been impacted by a host of other factors which make them a poor example of a regulated monopoly to use as a reference point. ....and your point is? |
#29
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 12 Jul 2012 01:04:51 GMT, Han wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. +1 -- [Television is] the triumph of machine over people. -- Fred Allen |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 12 Jul 2012 01:06:38 GMT, Han wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in om: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? This scares the hell out of me. When that was written fine. Now all I can say is follow the money. If I tried to explain who controls the money I would affend to many people. I'll just say look at the global banking system and who runs it. Mike M |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
Han wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. I understand your point that far - mine was that it's scarey for any individual to be the arbitar of what another should make as profit, or to be able to charge. What you call a few bucks may be very different from what I call a few bucks. Just the concept of a few bucks is rather presumptuous. I say let the market decide. If prices skyrocket because of royalties to Gass, and sales plummet, then changes will be made. It takes a while for markets to self-level, but the generally do in the end. We are in fierce agreement on the point of the governement getting too involved in this matter in the first place. This whole issue would be moot if CSPA simply does not decided definitively upon Gass' technology, and instead refers to it or like technologies. -- -Mike- |
#32
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
: Han wrote: "Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. I understand your point that far - mine was that it's scarey for any individual to be the arbitar of what another should make as profit, or to be able to charge. What you call a few bucks may be very different from what I call a few bucks. Just the concept of a few bucks is rather presumptuous. I say let the market decide. If prices skyrocket because of royalties to Gass, and sales plummet, then changes will be made. It takes a while for markets to self-level, but the generally do in the end. We are in fierce agreement on the point of the governement getting too involved in this matter in the first place. This whole issue would be moot if CSPA simply does not decided definitively upon Gass' technology, and instead refers to it or like technologies. That's the "crux" of the situation. Gass is an excellent patent attorney, and he has seized a problem and technology (flesh in proximity to a spinning metal blade) and provided a solution to greatly reduce the inherent dangers. He has done this rather thoroughly, so that it is nigh impossible for competing technologies to bypass his patents. After he approached TS manufacturers to sell them his technologies, they all said he was making a solution for a non-existing problem, and refused his offers (probably in part because they were afraid they'd price themselves out of the market, offering a technology nobody was going to buy). Then Gass (brilliantly, actually) went on a 3-prong attack. He started producing some excellent tablesaws incorporating his technologies, he lawyer-like started lobbying the safety agencies, and he helped start a lawsuit to further the safety angle of his premises. (I don't know whether he had any hand in the Ryobi suit, but it wouldn't surprise me). The Consumer Product Safety Commission www.cpsc.gov/ ... "is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of injury or death from thousands of types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction." So the question now is whether table saws fall in that category, and likely they (being bureaucrats sensing a big job at hand - pun intended) will take that challenge. As I said IF and WHEN the CPSC gets a rule effective, TS manufacturers might have to get patent licenses. This is a reference to one answer to the question that then arises (How can I determine the right licensing fees for our product? What is the formula??): http://tinyurl.com/c5v45mz or http://www.linkedin.com/answers/law-.../intellectual- property/LAW_COR_IPP/219676-642480 One rough answer is this: There is a 25% rule that people use to "ballpark" royalties. The rule suggests that the licensee should pay 25% of profits resulting from the license to the licensor. And so on and so forth. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:26:50 -0400, Bill wrote: zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:50:57 -0400, Bill wrote: zzzzzzzzzz wrote: On 12 Jul 2012 01:06:38 GMT, Han wrote: "HeyBub" wrote in m: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? The telephone companies were/are regulated monopolies. Totally different animals. So are newspaper publishers, record companies, and American car makers. Make sense, please. Due to VoIP, Skype, etc.. telephone companies aren't what they used to be. They have been impacted by a host of other factors which make them a poor example of a regulated monopoly to use as a reference point. ...and your point is? That however suggested telephone companies as a "success story", regarding the issues here, should seek a better example. |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 7/12/2012 6:33 AM, Han wrote:
That's the "crux" of the situation. Gass is an excellent patent attorney, and he has seized a problem and technology (flesh in proximity to a spinning metal blade) and provided a solution to greatly reduce the inherent dangers. He has done this rather thoroughly, so that it is nigh impossible for competing technologies to bypass his patents. After he approached TS manufacturers to sell them his technologies, they all said he was making a solution for a non-existing problem, and refused his offers (probably in part because they were afraid they'd price themselves out of the market, offering a technology nobody was going to buy). Then Gass (brilliantly, actually) went on a 3-prong attack. He started producing some excellent tablesaws incorporating his technologies, he lawyer-like started lobbying the safety agencies, and he helped start a lawsuit to further the safety angle of his premises. (I don't know whether he had any hand in the Ryobi suit, but it wouldn't surprise me). Please replace the below listed words/phrases with the following, more realistic descriptions, in order of appearance: "greedy"; "greedily"; "greedily"; "greedily"; "game the legal system"; "lining his pockets"; "sure thing" excellent thoroughly brilliantly lawyer-like lawsuit safety angle surprise Thanks ... -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 12 Jul 2012 11:33:03 GMT, Han wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: "Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. I understand your point that far - mine was that it's scarey for any individual to be the arbitar of what another should make as profit, or to be able to charge. What you call a few bucks may be very different from what I call a few bucks. Just the concept of a few bucks is rather presumptuous. I say let the market decide. If prices skyrocket because of royalties to Gass, and sales plummet, then changes will be made. It takes a while for markets to self-level, but the generally do in the end. We are in fierce agreement on the point of the governement getting too involved in this matter in the first place. This whole issue would be moot if CSPA simply does not decided definitively upon Gass' technology, and instead refers to it or like technologies. That's the "crux" of the situation. Gass is an excellent patent attorney, and he has seized a problem and technology (flesh in proximity to a spinning metal blade) and provided a solution to greatly reduce the inherent dangers. He has done this rather thoroughly, so that it is nigh impossible for competing technologies to bypass his patents. After he approached TS manufacturers to sell them his technologies, they all said he was making a solution for a non-existing problem, and refused his offers (probably in part because they were afraid they'd price themselves out of the market, offering a technology nobody was going to buy). Then Gass (brilliantly, actually) went on a 3-prong attack. He started producing some excellent tablesaws incorporating his technologies, he lawyer-like started lobbying the safety agencies, and he helped start a lawsuit to further the safety angle of his premises. (I don't know whether he had any hand in the Ryobi suit, but it wouldn't surprise me). The Consumer Product Safety Commission www.cpsc.gov/ ... "is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of injury or death from thousands of types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction." So the question now is whether table saws fall in that category, and likely they (being bureaucrats sensing a big job at hand - pun intended) will take that challenge. As I said IF and WHEN the CPSC gets a rule effective, TS manufacturers might have to get patent licenses. This is a reference to one answer to the question that then arises (How can I determine the right licensing fees for our product? What is the formula??): http://tinyurl.com/c5v45mz or http://www.linkedin.com/answers/law-.../intellectual- property/LAW_COR_IPP/219676-642480 First answer is a whole lot more sensible: 3-10% for 1-3 years. My favorite is a minimal licensing fee and set small amount per unit. For tablesaurs, I'd think $10k for licensing and a buck or two per saw would double his (and his fellow conspirees') millionaire status in a few years. One rough answer is this: There is a 25% rule that people use to "ballpark" royalties. The rule suggests that the licensee should pay 25% of profits resulting from the license to the licensor. That's likely an answer given by someone with a patent who wants as much as they can rape ya for. Maybe someone with a recent metric ****load of "skin sensing technology" patents for a tablesaur. It's outrageously high. -- [Television is] the triumph of machine over people. -- Fred Allen |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:44:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:
On 7/12/2012 6:33 AM, Han wrote: That's the "crux" of the situation. Gass is an excellent patent attorney, and he has seized a problem and technology (flesh in proximity to a spinning metal blade) and provided a solution to greatly reduce the inherent dangers. He has done this rather thoroughly, so that it is nigh impossible for competing technologies to bypass his patents. After he approached TS manufacturers to sell them his technologies, they all said he was making a solution for a non-existing problem, and refused his offers (probably in part because they were afraid they'd price themselves out of the market, offering a technology nobody was going to buy). Then Gass (brilliantly, actually) went on a 3-prong attack. He started producing some excellent tablesaws incorporating his technologies, he lawyer-like started lobbying the safety agencies, and he helped start a lawsuit to further the safety angle of his premises. (I don't know whether he had any hand in the Ryobi suit, but it wouldn't surprise me). Yes, he was a witness against Ryobi in the lawsuit, Han. Page 3 of the appeal decision (another bad judgment, IMO) http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opin...-1824P-01A.pdf "Osorio largely relied on the testimony of his witness, Dr. Stephen Gass, inventor of "SawStop," a" Please replace the below listed words/phrases with the following, more realistic descriptions, in order of appearance: "greedy"; "greedily"; "greedily"; "greedily"; "game the legal system"; "lining his pockets"; "sure thing" excellent thoroughly brilliantly lawyer-like lawsuit safety angle surprise Thanks ... Precisely. When Gass had a chance to be a hero (AND make millions off it), he will be remembered only as a @#$%^&* lawyer by future generations. Typical and very sad. I can only hope that review by an appeals judge brings out the probable vengeance angle by him against Ryobi after they failed to complete the licensing agreement. -- [Television is] the triumph of machine over people. -- Fred Allen |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
Larry Jaques wrote:
On 12 Jul 2012 11:33:03 GMT, Han wrote: "Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: "Mike Marlow" wrote in : Han wrote: Who decides what's "exorbitant"? You? I haven't paid Gass a dime, and won't. I'm sure lawyers will determine that. Which will be better than relying on your own personal opinion of what is appropriate. On this particular matter Han, you scare me. OK, let me clarify my reasoning. Whether we like it or not, I believe that we are going to get sawstop technology pushed on us by the safety people, thanks to Gass's lobbying and his patent expertise. I hope to be wrong, and that it will remain a matter of free choice, but I fear the nanny state(s)/feds will indeed force the stuff on us. If that happens, licensing fees need to be established in a monopoly situation. I am pretty sure that some hi-faluting negotiating on those fees will occur and that lawyers will take a large part in that, since it is a question of licensing patents and determining what is a fair fee. Previously I was throwing numbers in the ring for what I thought might be reasonable fees. But I am not a lawyer, have no experience whatsoever with patents, and dislike Gass rather strongly for his strongarm tactics. I understand your point that far - mine was that it's scarey for any individual to be the arbitar of what another should make as profit, or to be able to charge. What you call a few bucks may be very different from what I call a few bucks. Just the concept of a few bucks is rather presumptuous. I say let the market decide. If prices skyrocket because of royalties to Gass, and sales plummet, then changes will be made. It takes a while for markets to self-level, but the generally do in the end. We are in fierce agreement on the point of the governement getting too involved in this matter in the first place. This whole issue would be moot if CSPA simply does not decided definitively upon Gass' technology, and instead refers to it or like technologies. That's the "crux" of the situation. Gass is an excellent patent attorney, and he has seized a problem and technology (flesh in proximity to a spinning metal blade) and provided a solution to greatly reduce the inherent dangers. He has done this rather thoroughly, so that it is nigh impossible for competing technologies to bypass his patents. After he approached TS manufacturers to sell them his technologies, they all said he was making a solution for a non-existing problem, and refused his offers (probably in part because they were afraid they'd price themselves out of the market, offering a technology nobody was going to buy). Then Gass (brilliantly, actually) went on a 3-prong attack. He started producing some excellent tablesaws incorporating his technologies, he lawyer-like started lobbying the safety agencies, and he helped start a lawsuit to further the safety angle of his premises. (I don't know whether he had any hand in the Ryobi suit, but it wouldn't surprise me). The Consumer Product Safety Commission www.cpsc.gov/ ... "is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of injury or death from thousands of types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction." So the question now is whether table saws fall in that category, and likely they (being bureaucrats sensing a big job at hand - pun intended) will take that challenge. As I said IF and WHEN the CPSC gets a rule effective, TS manufacturers might have to get patent licenses. This is a reference to one answer to the question that then arises (How can I determine the right licensing fees for our product? What is the formula??): http://tinyurl.com/c5v45mz or http://www.linkedin.com/answers/law-.../intellectual- property/LAW_COR_IPP/219676-642480 First answer is a whole lot more sensible: 3-10% for 1-3 years. My favorite is a minimal licensing fee and set small amount per unit. For tablesaurs, I'd think $10k for licensing and a buck or two per saw would double his (and his fellow conspirees') millionaire status in a few years. Gosh, considering the large size of and the relatively small number of the players in the saw making game, that doesn't seem fair to Gass. -- and I'm far from being a Gass-fan! One rough answer is this: There is a 25% rule that people use to "ballpark" royalties. The rule suggests that the licensee should pay 25% of profits resulting from the license to the licensor. That's likely an answer given by someone with a patent who wants as much as they can rape ya for. Maybe someone with a recent metric ****load of "skin sensing technology" patents for a tablesaur. It's outrageously high. -- [Television is] the triumph of machine over people. -- Fred Allen |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On 7/12/2012 8:52 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 12 Jul 2012 11:33:03 GMT, Han wrote: One rough answer is this: There is a 25% rule that people use to "ballpark" royalties. The rule suggests that the licensee should pay 25% of profits resulting from the license to the license. That's likely an answer given by someone with a patent who wants as much as they can rape ya for. Maybe someone with a recent metric ****load of "skin sensing technology" patents for a tablesaur. It's outrageously high. Obviously that is subject to a lot of interpretation, definition and negotiation, as it is doubtful whoever had the patent on the intermittent windshield wiper was paid 25% of the profit on a car. That said, if there is one thing generally accepted in business these days it is that our patent system is broken and has been subverted by none other than lawyers like Gass, particularly regarding technology/software patents. It is to the point of absurdity, at unbelievable cost to the consumer and innovation ... for the past decade or so the patent office, underfunded and grossly inept in the usual bureaucratic manner, has been operating under the concept that they will patent anything presented to them, and let anyone affected by their ineptness fight it out in the courts, benefiting no one but guess who? ... asshat lawyers, like Gass. A pox on the greedy *******s ... -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
Han wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in m: Han wrote: I believe that in the case where an invention becomes a monopoly, that the inventor is obliged to license his invention at "reasonable" cost, not an exorbitant cost. My hyperbolic statements were meant to emphasize the reasonableness of the fees. As for taking, there is also eminent domain - much maligned, often improperly practiced, but such "takings" are allowed by the Constitution. Meh! ALL patents are monopolies, guaranteed by the Constitution. Article I, Section 8 "The Congress shall have the power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." And? If a law makes use of a patent mandatory, licensing fees shall be reasonable it says somewhere IIRC. Wasn't that the case with telephone fees, and a host of other things? Er, no, not to my knowledge. It would be impossible, under law, to make a specific product mandatory. What an entity COULD do is mandate a device (or formula or whatever) that had specific "charateristics" with clever wording such that only one product in the world would match the specifications. Actually, this is fairly common. In the case of the proposed California law, intelligent people can come up with circumventions. For example, assume the retail price of an economy table saw without "SawStop" is $150 and with "SawStop" is $650. The saw manufacturer could pack the saw with the SawStop uninstalled, just like the splitter or stand. What the buyer of the saw does then is to "sell" the separately-packaged SawStop back to the saw manufacturer for $500. If that's too obvious, the buyer could sell the thing to an "independent" third company. What the third company does with the gizmo is kept a complete mystery (wink-wink). |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Left coast headed towards flesh detecting table saws in 2015
On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 10:26:12 -0400, Bill wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote: On 12 Jul 2012 11:33:03 GMT, Han wrote: My favorite is a minimal licensing fee and set small amount per unit. For tablesaurs, I'd think $10k for licensing and a buck or two per saw would double his (and his fellow conspirees') millionaire status in a few years. Gosh, considering the large size of and the relatively small number of the players in the saw making game, that doesn't seem fair to Gass. -- and I'm far from being a Gass-fan! With annual sales at 800,000, that's $800k-$1.6 million, or up to $16M a decade. PLUS licensing fees to hundreds of companies. Not fair? Plus he'd have had global love and respect v. the global contempt he has now. It's a no-brainer to anyone but a lawyer. -- [Television is] the triumph of machine over people. -- Fred Allen |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Left Handed Circular Saws, etc. | Home Repair | |||
Right vs. Left bladed circular saws? | Woodworking | |||
How do SawStop Table Saws Compare as Saws? | Woodworking | |||
Mitre saws, table saws, or flip saw? | UK diy | |||
Left vs Right Tilting Cabinet Saws | Woodworking |