A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the brand)
for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance insert. I don't
know whether the insert was home-made or commercially available, what material
it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent
it from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through
the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with a
block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep it from
lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and for some
reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block as he was
raising it while also holding the block in place with a push stick (one of
those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this
raise any red flags with you yet?

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the blade, he
is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he had his left index
finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might expect the block shifted
around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs the block and virtually
*disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn
disintegrates the index finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and
fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The
doctors told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a finger
after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I
probably would have said the same thing.

Be careful out there.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or
commercially available, what material it was made of, or whether it
had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting,
etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through the
insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn
disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index
finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in
his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors
told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a
finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to
take it off. I probably would have said the same thing.
Be careful out there.

that was an accident waiting to happen from the beginning.
He should have clamped a strip across the top and just raised the blade
and would have been done in 2 minutes.
Never underestimate the POWER of a power tool....ever. RESPECT

Steve Turner wrote in
:

*snip*


So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to
keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade
cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the block
in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a notch at
the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red flags with
you yet?

*snip*

Those push sticks with a notch at the end are worthless. They're
dangerous partially because of where the pressure is applied and
partially because of the failure mode. If they break, they break fast!
and your hand will head in the direction pressure was applied, usually
TOWARDS THE BLADE.

Some time ago, someone on here passed on a piece of advice: Consider
what would happen (where your hands would go) if the wood suddenly
disappeared. This certainly applies to push sticks as well.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Some time ago, someone on here passed on a piece of advice: Consider
what would happen (where your hands would go) if the wood suddenly
disappeared. This certainly applies to push sticks as well.

Puckdropper
--
EXACTLY what I tell my students.

It also helps to point out the fact that if you are pushing towards the
blade when the wood disappeared, you will not stop your hand in time.

-- Jim in NC

On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance insert.

Ouch ... for me that's one of those operations that always causes the
sphincter to pucker, even when it's done correctly (clamped down, from
both ends, caul).

Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).

And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...18928011997682

Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
....
This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. ...
...he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
a block of wood ...

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger...

Stupid wins again...

--

On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance insert.

Ouch ... for me that's one of those operations that always causes the
sphincter to pucker, even when it's done correctly (clamped down, from
both ends, caul).

Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).

And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...18928011997682

Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.

THAT, sir, looks nothing like a resawn frozen cat.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

On 5/26/2012 9:27 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, wrote:

And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...18928011997682

Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.

THAT, sir, looks nothing like a resawn frozen cat.

Au Contraire ... Note the faired curve of the handle, which artfully
mimics the naturally and gently curved tail of a contented, organic milk
fed, frozen push stick pussy.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).

Since I've never seen a folding one, I'll guess you meant the two
straight sticks with a hinge at the top and a stop at the bottom of one
stick. Either way, I agree with you. I made one of those, used it once,
and threw it away. Perhaps a new daffynition:

Tapering jig - a device to make the most dangerous power tool even more
dangerous!

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On May 26, 12:52*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:
Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).

Since I've never seen a folding one, I'll guess you meant the two
straight sticks with a hinge at the top and a stop at the bottom of one
stick. *Either way, I agree with you. *I made one of those, used it once,
and threw it away.

A sled-type jig with wooden hold downs is almost as
easy to make and a lot easier to feed without it being
thrown into your face.

On 5/26/2012 11:52 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Only thing worse I can think of is using one of the folding $20 aluminum
tapering jigs. (I can't imagine why that thing has not been the subject
of a product liability lawsuit, and outlawed in Kooky Kalifornio).

Since I've never seen a folding one, I'll guess you meant the two
straight sticks with a hinge at the top and a stop at the bottom of one
stick. Either way, I agree with you. I made one of those, used it once,
and threw it away. Perhaps a new daffynition:

Tapering jig - a device to make the most dangerous power tool even more
dangerous!

Yep, that's it. One of the problems is you can't just cheat death with
it once, you usually have to do it TWICE for each of four table legs.

When using one, by the end of the second leg I had to take a break and
mentally steel myself for the last two. By the end of the fourth leg I
was always a wincing bundle of nerves.

IIRC, I barely managed to go through that twice before I built this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...17667358454546

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/26/2012 9:02 AM, dpb wrote:
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
...
This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. ...
...he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
a block of wood ...

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger...

Stupid wins again...

--

Yeah I would say stupid lost.

Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or
commercially available, what material it was made of, or whether it
had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting,
etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through the
insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn
disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index
finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in
his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors
told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a
finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to
take it off. I probably would have said the same thing.

I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have, but for
the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say that I question
it - to say that done at least one way, this should have worked just fine.
I would be very curious about the missing details, because this just does
not seem that dangerous (under one set of circumstances).

--

-Mike-

I tried staying out of this one.

So here's what I do.

I put in my dado blade. Just one of the blades from the end of the
stack. It's smaller than 10" I think I have a 6" but it could be 8".
That allows me to cut right upto where it peaks through safely.
Then I change out to my regular blade and bring it all the way up for a
nice zero clearance. The dado blade gives me enough room to put the 10"
blade without hitting the bottom of the plate. You could route it out too..

I have never had a problem, the dowel pin I put in the back is enough to
hold it, but I put a board over it off to the side of the blade clamped
down so I can see it poke through. I usualy will use the sacrificial
fence as that board.

I find it safer than trying to hold the plate on top of the existing
plate. That just scares me.


On 5/25/2012 11:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
have said the same thing.

Be careful out there.

On 5/26/2012 8:11 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
....

So here's what I do.
....
I have never had a problem, the dowel pin I put in the back is enough to
hold it, but I put a board over it off to the side of the blade clamped
down so I can see it poke through. I usualy will use the sacrificial
fence as that board.

I find it safer than trying to hold the plate on top of the existing
plate. That just scares me.
....

This isn't rocket science here, folks!

Just put the fence over the side of the plate clear of the blade by a
safe margin so you don't hit it, stick a shim under it to keep the plate
from climbing and raise away.

--

On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:02:15 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:

A sled-type jig with wooden hold downs is almost as easy to make and a
lot easier to feed without it being thrown into your face.

Agreed. I should have mentioned that myself. The same sled comes in
handy for cutting angles more acute than a miter gauge allows.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:29:43 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 5/26/2012 9:27 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:43:30 -0500, wrote:

And the forked "push stick" thing, runs a close tie, especially when it
is used without a splitter. It's why I continue to make these out of scraps:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...18928011997682

Many folks have simply not experienced the power of a 3 - 5 HP cabinet
saw, or the swiftness with which it will bite.

THAT, sir, looks nothing like a resawn frozen cat.

Au Contraire ... Note the faired curve of the handle, which artfully
mimics the naturally and gently curved tail of a contented, organic milk
fed, frozen push stick pussy.

Newp, newp, newp. The curve fractals are all wrong for that.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or
commercially available, what material it was made of, or whether it
had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting,
etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade through the
insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn
disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index
finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in
his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors
told him they might be able to return it to some semblance of a
finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to
take it off. I probably would have said the same thing.

I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have, but for
the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say that I question
it - to say that done at least one way, this should have worked just fine.
I would be very curious about the missing details, because this just does
not seem that dangerous (under one set of circumstances).

Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up through the
center of a block of wood that has no real protection from side-to-side or
front-to-back movement?

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade
through the insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in
turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the
index finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and
fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the
bone. The doctors told him they might be able to return it to some
semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he
just told them to take it off. I probably would have said the same
thing.

I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say
that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this should
have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the missing
details, because this just does not seem that dangerous (under one
set of circumstances).

Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in detail
to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original explanation which
explained how the accident happened.

Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than just I do
not really understand exactly what happened.

To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
meaningless.


--

-Mike-

dpb wrote:
On 5/26/2012 8:11 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
...

So here's what I do.
...
I have never had a problem, the dowel pin I put in the back is enough to
hold it, but I put a board over it off to the side of the blade clamped
down so I can see it poke through. I usualy will use the sacrificial
fence as that board.

I find it safer than trying to hold the plate on top of the existing
plate. That just scares me.
...

This isn't rocket science here, folks!

Yes, doing it right is easy. The problem is that doing it wrong is
just as easy! I would do as you suggested below.

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.


Just put the fence over the side of the plate clear of the blade by a
safe margin so you don't hit it, stick a shim under it to keep the plate
from climbing and raise away.

--

On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
....

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
....

Well, it was a silly way to go about it for starters; depending on the
saw how far the reach was could make it problematic to do both at once
(and apparently did).

--

On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of
the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the blade
through the insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above
with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape)
to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was
sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK to let the
blade cut into the block as he was raising it while also holding the
block in place with a push stick (one of those long things with a
notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does this raise any red
flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think
he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you
might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The
blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in
turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the
index finger on John's left hand. Ten different breaks and
fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and meat hanging off the
bone. The doctors told him they might be able to return it to some
semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or more surgeries, but he
just told them to take it off. I probably would have said the same
thing.

I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to say
that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this should
have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the missing
details, because this just does not seem that dangerous (under one
set of circumstances).

Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in detail
to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original explanation which
explained how the accident happened.

Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than just I do
not really understand exactly what happened.

To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
meaningless.

I read what you wrote; I didn't understand it because you kinda gorped up the
words. "to say that done at least one way" - I don't know what that means.

Did you read what I wrote? I said "while John is turning the crank with his
right hand to raise the blade, he is holding the block in place with his left
hand" (doing two things at once; a good recipe for getting distracted) and "the
block shifted around a little bit". Not surprising, using one of those long
useless push-sticks with the notch at the end; in order to crank the blade up,
you're not going to be in the best position for applying straight downward
pressure, especially if your arm is up in the air while you're bent over to
reach the crank. I don't know what direction the wood moved (and "John"
probably doesn't either), but any movement other than straight back would be
BAD and an opportunity for the blade to catch. A push stick is normally used
to apply pressure to TWO reference surfaces (the table and fence) not just one.
Do you often attempt to push wood through the blade without the assistance of
a fence? Good luck if you do.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun
story. This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not
sure
of the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the
blade through the insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from
above with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or
what shape) to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The
block was sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK
to let the blade cut into the block as he was raising it while
also holding the block in place with a push stick (one of those
long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does
this raise any red flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise
the blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I
think he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and
as you might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and
WHAM! The blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates*
it, which in turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn
disintegrates the index finger on John's left hand. Ten
different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and
meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might be
able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a
half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to take it
off. I probably would have said the same thing.

I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to
say that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this
should have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the
missing details, because this just does not seem that dangerous
(under one set of circumstances).

Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in
detail to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original
explanation which explained how the accident happened.

Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than
just I do not really understand exactly what happened.

To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
meaningless.

I read what you wrote; I didn't understand it because you kinda
gorped up the words. "to say that done at least one way" - I don't
know what that means.

Well then - how about asking for clarification? Instead you took a
different approach which attempted to make me look foolish. I do that well
enough on my own from time to time without any help...


Did you read what I wrote? I said "while John is turning the crank
with his right hand to raise the blade, he is holding the block in
place with his left hand" (doing two things at once; a good recipe
for getting distracted)

Oh bull - you often do two things at once with any number of tools. Absent
details, it is impossible to know what he was relly doing and if it was
indeed dangerous. It would be for example, quite common and quite
appropriate, when making a zero clearance plate, to hold it in place while
raising the blade. Your statement above is just wrong in its
generalization.


and "the block shifted around a little bit".

Which leaves a ton to the imagination. "The block" - what block? What are
you refering to? You never explained how he was using "the block". What is
the doggoned block that you're referring to?


Not surprising, using one of those long useless push-sticks with the
notch at the end;

In my mind - with your weak explanation, I envisioned a push stick exactly
like the one Karl posted a link to. Hardly a useless push stick. But - the
explanation itself left too many questions in my mind because I could not
understand what you meant by what you were trying to say. The type of push
stick Karl posted is hardly a useless push stick, but one cannot tell from
your description what you meant. You could very well be wrong in your
assessment of the push stick, or you could equally be very correct - but I
could not tell from your description.


in order to crank the blade up, you're not going to
be in the best position for applying straight downward pressure,

You don't need to put your full weight on it Steve. I know that on my saw I
can indeed put enough down pressure on a piece while cranking up the blade.


especially if your arm is up in the air while you're bent over to
reach the crank.

It isn't. It's nearly in the normal operating position.

I don't know what direction the wood moved (and
"John" probably doesn't either), but any movement other than straight
back would be BAD and an opportunity for the blade to catch.

Ok - you don't know. That's fair. All I said was that the operation he was
performing is done every day by woodworkers, and absent any futher detail,
it should have worked just fine. I don't know what he did that created his
problem, but it is not something that isn't and can't be done quite safely.

A push
stick is normally used to apply pressure to TWO reference surfaces
(the table and fence) not just one. Do you often attempt to push wood
through the blade without the assistance of a fence? Good luck if
you do.

Now why in the world would you throw that question in there Steve? Red
Herring. Never made any mention of anything that should have resulted in
that.

I understand that your friend just experienced a severely traumatic event
and that it probably has a very significant effect upon you. Maybe best to
let this discussion lie for a day or two.

Hope he comes out of this... as well as he can.

--

-Mike-

On 5/26/2012 11:28 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/26/2012 8:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that
another acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun
story. This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not
sure
of the brand) for which he was preparing to install a new
zero-clearance insert. I don't know whether the insert was
home-made or commercially available, what material it was made of,
or whether it had a roll pin protruding out the back to prevent it
from lifting, etc. All I know is that he needed to raise the
blade through the insert to cut the opening.
So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from
above with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or
what shape) to keep it from lifting while raising the blade. The
block was sacrificial, and for some reason he thought it was OK
to let the blade cut into the block as he was raising it while
also holding the block in place with a push stick (one of those
long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those things!). Does
this raise any red flags with you yet?
So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise
the blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I
think he had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and
as you might expect the block shifted around a little bit, and
WHAM! The blade grabs the block and virtually *disintegrates*
it, which in turn disintegrates the push stick, which in turn
disintegrates the index finger on John's left hand. Ten
different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn tendons, and
meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might be
able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a
half-dozen or more surgeries, but he just told them to take it
off. I probably would have said the same thing.

I know you had to leave out a lot of details that you didn't have,
but for the life of me I cannot just see this happening. Not to
say that I question it - to say that done at least one way, this
should have worked just fine. I would be very curious about the
missing details, because this just does not seem that dangerous
(under one set of circumstances).

Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

Really - read what I wrote. The description seemed to be lacking in
detail to me. So no... I did not get anything from the original
explanation which explained how the accident happened.

Watch as this thread unfolds and I will assure you that more than
just I do not really understand exactly what happened.

To draw any conclusions based on a lack of understanding is just
meaningless.

I read what you wrote; I didn't understand it because you kinda
gorped up the words. "to say that done at least one way" - I don't
know what that means.

Well then - how about asking for clarification? Instead you took a
different approach which attempted to make me look foolish. I do that well
enough on my own from time to time without any help...


Did you read what I wrote? I said "while John is turning the crank
with his right hand to raise the blade, he is holding the block in
place with his left hand" (doing two things at once; a good recipe
for getting distracted)

Oh bull - you often do two things at once with any number of tools. Absent
details, it is impossible to know what he was relly doing and if it was
indeed dangerous. It would be for example, quite common and quite
appropriate, when making a zero clearance plate, to hold it in place while
raising the blade. Your statement above is just wrong in its
generalization.

"Quite common and quite appropriate ... to hold it in place while raising the
blade." Yes, but not with a block of wood OVER the blade, with the blade
coming up through it, and holding the block in place effectively BY HAND
instead of clamping it so that it can't shift. I don't trust myself not to let
that block shift around. If you think this is a safe operation, then I damn
sure don't want to be taking safety tips from you. I'll stand 10 or 15 feet
off to the side while I watch you tempt Lady Luck.

and "the block shifted around a little bit".

Which leaves a ton to the imagination. "The block" - what block? What are
you refering to? You never explained how he was using "the block". What is
the doggoned block that you're referring to?

You just flat-out can't read. "So John installs the insert and proceeds to
hold it down from above with a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or
what shape)". Do you want me to call him and find out the particulars? The
species perhaps?

Not surprising, using one of those long useless push-sticks with the
notch at the end;

In my mind - with your weak explanation, I envisioned a push stick exactly
like the one Karl posted a link to. Hardly a useless push stick. But - the
explanation itself left too many questions in my mind because I could not
understand what you meant by what you were trying to say. The type of push
stick Karl posted is hardly a useless push stick, but one cannot tell from
your description what you meant. You could very well be wrong in your
assessment of the push stick, or you could equally be very correct - but I
could not tell from your description.

What the hell? How much more descriptive do I have to be? One of these, OK?

http://www.craftsmanspace.com/sites/...push_stick.jpg

Useless damn things. And you can only apply downward pressure to the leading
edge. The back side of the block is free to lift, where it's most prone to
lift, where the blade is coming UP through the slot.

in order to crank the blade up, you're not going to
be in the best position for applying straight downward pressure,

You don't need to put your full weight on it Steve. I know that on my saw I
can indeed put enough down pressure on a piece while cranking up the blade.


especially if your arm is up in the air while you're bent over to
reach the crank.

It isn't. It's nearly in the normal operating position.

You were there, huh?

I don't know what direction the wood moved (and
"John" probably doesn't either), but any movement other than straight
back would be BAD and an opportunity for the blade to catch.

Ok - you don't know. That's fair. All I said was that the operation he was
performing is done every day by woodworkers, and absent any futher detail,

Bull****. Not in the way HE was doing it, and it appears that I gave enough
detail that a dozen or so other people seemed to think it was a stupid thing to do.

it should have worked just fine. I don't know what he did that created his
problem, but it is not something that isn't and can't be done quite safely.

Like I said, I won't be taking any safety tips from you any time soon.

A push
stick is normally used to apply pressure to TWO reference surfaces
(the table and fence) not just one. Do you often attempt to push wood
through the blade without the assistance of a fence? Good luck if
you do.

Now why in the world would you throw that question in there Steve? Red
Herring. Never made any mention of anything that should have resulted in
that.

To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to shifting around
with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But trying to hold a
conversation with you is like talking to one of those voice recognition systems.

I understand that your friend just experienced a severely traumatic event
and that it probably has a very significant effect upon you. Maybe best to
let this discussion lie for a day or two.

He's an acquaintance not a friend, and the only real effect it's had on me is
as a learning experience of what NOT to do when cutting a zero-clearance
insert. Not that I ever would have done it that way to begin with. Just
thinking about his approach makes my sphincter pucker. If I had been there
watching him, I would have stopped him before he ever hit the power button and
smacked him upside the head.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.

No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
personally).

The approach used in this instance is absolutely guaranteed to have such
"dire consequences", exactly as it did.

IOW, this was NOT an accident, it was a guaranteed outcome with an
almost 100% chance of failure, catastrophic of otherwise.

What happened is an absolute indication of inexperience with a table saw
or, less likely, but more charitably, a momentary case of the stupids on
the part of the amputee.

Simply put, the only way safe for a two handed woodworker, working
alone, to accomplish this job is to use a _mechanical_ method that will
apply a stable and _consistent_ downward force on the insert that is
greater than the upward force of both the rotating blade teeth, and the
elevating mechanism.

IOW it is not something you want to attempt to accomplish alone, with
just two available hands ... i.e, one turning the elevation crank, and
the other attempting to apply the necessary downward force in any
manner, INCLUDING USING A PUSH STICK OF ANY DESIGN.

Except for the upward force on the insert, Steve stated the other
problem clearly and concisely in a subsequent post:

On 5/26/2012 9:41 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/26/2012 8:48 PM, dpb wrote:


Just put the fence over the side of the plate clear of the blade by a
safe margin so you don't hit it, stick a shim under it to keep the plate
from climbing and raise away.

Except that many modern fences are not attached at the back, meaning
there is likelihood that there could be some movement of the fence, and
thus the insert, during raising of the blade.

While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight movement.

I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use
this method with complete satisfaction.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But
trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking to one of
those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.

--

-Mike-

On 5/27/2012 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But
trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking to one of
those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.

I don't seem to have any problem talking with others. You're the one who is
always jumping into a perfectly understandable conversation and taking it off
into the weeds of your own misunderstanding, adding complexity where there is
none. I don't know how many times I've seen you adding nothing but circularity
and confusion to a conversation, while at the same time chastising other people
for their inability to explain things in a way that YOU can understand them.

BTW, I don't see too many other people jumping into this thread with a lack of
understanding about how the accident happened, like you assured me they would.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 5/27/2012 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.

No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with using a
table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that personally).

The approach used in this instance is absolutely guaranteed to have such "dire
consequences", exactly as it did.

IOW, this was NOT an accident, it was a guaranteed outcome with an almost 100%
chance of failure, catastrophic of otherwise.

What happened is an absolute indication of inexperience with a table saw or,
less likely, but more charitably, a momentary case of the stupids on the part
of the amputee.

Simply put, the only way safe for a two handed woodworker, working alone, to
accomplish this job is to use a _mechanical_ method that will apply a stable
and _consistent_ downward force on the insert that is greater than the upward
force of both the rotating blade teeth, and the elevating mechanism.

IOW it is not something you want to attempt to accomplish alone, with just two
available hands ... i.e, one turning the elevation crank, and the other
attempting to apply the necessary downward force in any manner, INCLUDING USING
A PUSH STICK OF ANY DESIGN.

Except for the upward force on the insert, Steve stated the other problem
clearly and concisely in a subsequent post:

On 5/26/2012 9:41 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely how to
accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything anyone has
said, or will say, to the contrary.

Thank you Karl. I may not be the BEST at explaining things, but hopefully with
the addition of your concise clarification, no other readers of this group will
be tempted to try the boneheaded method that caused my acquaintance to lose his
finger.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

In article , Steve Turner
wrote:

BTW, I don't see too many other people jumping into this thread with a lack
of
understanding about how the accident happened, like you assured me they would.

Steve,

I KF'd Mike quite some time back. What you're seeing here is typical
behaviour on his part.

On 5/27/2012 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.

No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
personally).

The approach used in this instance is absolutely guaranteed to have such
"dire consequences", exactly as it did.

IOW, this was NOT an accident, it was a guaranteed outcome with an
almost 100% chance of failure, catastrophic of otherwise.

What happened is an absolute indication of inexperience with a table saw
or, less likely, but more charitably, a momentary case of the stupids on
the part of the amputee.

Simply put, the only way safe for a two handed woodworker, working
alone, to accomplish this job is to use a _mechanical_ method that will
apply a stable and _consistent_ downward force on the insert that is
greater than the upward force of both the rotating blade teeth, and the
elevating mechanism.

IOW it is not something you want to attempt to accomplish alone, with
just two available hands ... i.e, one turning the elevation crank, and
the other attempting to apply the necessary downward force in any
manner, INCLUDING USING A PUSH STICK OF ANY DESIGN.

Except for the upward force on the insert, Steve stated the other
problem clearly and concisely in a subsequent post:

On 5/26/2012 9:41 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
Really? You don't see anything dangerous about the blade coming up
through the center of a block of wood that has no real protection
from side-to-side or front-to-back movement?

For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.


That is the absolute safest way and should the multi-material insert
shatter for what ever reason you are also covered.

Steve Turner wrote:
On 5/27/2012 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
to one of those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
interested.

I don't seem to have any problem talking with others. You're the one
who is always jumping into a perfectly understandable conversation
and taking it off into the weeds of your own misunderstanding, adding
complexity where there is none. I don't know how many times I've
seen you adding nothing but circularity and confusion to a
conversation, while at the same time chastising other people for
their inability to explain things in a way that YOU can understand
them.
BTW, I don't see too many other people jumping into this thread with
a lack of understanding about how the accident happened, like you
assured me they would.

That's fine. See ya Steve.

--

-Mike-

On 5/27/2012 12:32 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

Thank you Karl. I may not be the BEST at explaining things, but
hopefully with the addition of your concise clarification, no other
readers of this group will be tempted to try the boneheaded method that
caused my acquaintance to lose his finger.

Actually, you nailed it previously. You have now experienced the fact
that some of the participation here has been reduced to taking trivial
exception to your statement(s), then proceeding to quibble to the point
that it becomes _your_ fault in the caviler's publicly expressed mind.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
....

While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight movement.

Never seen it...


I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use
this method with complete satisfaction.

Perhaps altho I can't envision the fence being that flexible and being
able of providing "complete satisfaction" in normal operations if so.

I've the original PM 66 fence. If the UniFence is indeed that unstable,
throw a clamp on the ass end to hold it down.

--

On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:10:26 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.
--snip--

For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.

Good video, good advice, Karl.

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
....

While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
movement.

Never seen it...
....

Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's
needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the
cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the
opening in which case it won't be precise, anyway.

--

On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
...

While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
movement.

Never seen it...

Well, you can't say that any longer:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...97982693130738

As the caption says, this insert had only minor damage from movement
when being cut, and it is therefore still in use.

The results was not acceptable for a previous "zero clearance" insert
when initially attempting to use a UniFence for performing the same
operation.

My point being that I quickly found it to be much simpler and effective,
for both the operation and the equipment, to forego using this type of
fence in that manner, and to double clamp a sacrificial caul across the
insert instead.

I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use
this method with complete satisfaction.

Perhaps altho I can't envision the fence being that flexible and being
able of providing "complete satisfaction" in normal operations if so.

Well, the operation is arguably intended to be done with as much
precision as possible ... otherwise we would not be using the term "
_zero_ clearance" insert, eh?

I've the original PM 66 fence. If the UniFence is indeed that unstable,
throw a clamp on the ass end to hold it down.

I would not say the UniFence is "unstable", but it does move vertically
on the "ass end", as do just about all TS fences that are only attached
on one end.

You're right, putting a clamp in that location on a precision fence of
this type would undoubtedly work, but you'd want to insure that it was
done carefully so it didn't bind the mechanism, and possibly damage that
fence's built in precision.

Once again, your solution is certainly much safer than what was
represented and is certainly viable if the equipment can handle it.

Obviously a drawback to the UniFence, just like I have found it
unsuitable for hold downs, like "board buddies".

YMMV ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/27/2012 2:47 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
....

While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
movement.

Never seen it...
...

Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's
needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the
cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the opening
in which case it won't be precise, anyway.

Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy
is indeed using a PM 66 fence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

FastForward to 2:25, if so inclined.

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On 5/27/2012 3:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
....

Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy
is indeed using a PM 66 fence.
....

That's their equivalent of a Biesemeyer; not the original, original.

The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
If not what you got then find another method; that's not rocket
science, either.

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On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
....

The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
....

Similar vintage; same fence...

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind...l.aspx?id=9654

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