Swingman wrote:
On 5/27/2012 12:32 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

Thank you Karl. I may not be the BEST at explaining things, but
hopefully with the addition of your concise clarification, no other
readers of this group will be tempted to try the boneheaded method
that caused my acquaintance to lose his finger.

Actually, you nailed it previously. You have now experienced the fact
that some of the participation here has been reduced to taking trivial
exception to your statement(s), then proceeding to quibble to the
point that it becomes _your_ fault in the caviler's publicly
expressed mind.

Nice try - but incorrect.

--

-Mike-

On May 26, 9:59*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:02:15 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
A sled-type jig with wooden hold downs is almost as easy to make and a
lot easier to feed without it being thrown into your face.

Agreed. *I should have mentioned that myself. *The same sled comes in
handy for cutting angles more acute than a miter gauge allows.

Makes a decent jointer, too.

Swingman wrote:
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.

No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
personally).

None taken. I haven't used a TS since high school, so I'm quite open
to learning good technique. I watched the video twice, it has
"everything" one would need to know (and more technique than most folks
probably use).

I'm still getting by with an old, but solid, CS I picked up at auction
for about $10. No one seems to like tailed-tools (but I do, since I
don't use them everyday, or even every week). It worked on sawing the
workbench parts (almost done). We finally cleaned-up, touched-up, and
hung today the 4'x3' framed mirror I asked about last month. Inexpensive
wax-like "blend sticks", worked nicely for touching-up some bare gouge
marks. I only used the black one and got an "invisible" repair. I have
also had good luck, on another piece, with the "colored markers" you
mentioned.

Bill


snip

For future reference, bookmark a link to this video showing precisely
how to accomplish this task safely and efficiently, _in detail_ :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.

On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:21:26 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.

Ok, I have to ask. You've been pretty volatile here lately. Certainly
more so in the past few months. What has changed? Something appears to
have set you off.

....and you just had to announce that to the world?
Any other insecurities we should know about? Would it help if we all
said we would follow your troll announcement?

-------
"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message
...
Steve,

I KF'd Mike quite some time back. What you're seeing here is typical
behaviour on his part.

He has been attempting to communicate with the troll crowd. He even has
a nailgun set up to protect his home from them. Reason enough?

--------
"Dave" wrote in message
...
Ok, I have to ask. You've been pretty volatile here lately. Certainly
more so in the past few months. What has changed? Something appears to
have set you off.

------
On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:21:26 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on
a
civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.

On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:05:13 -0400, "m II" wrote:
He has been attempting to communicate with the troll crowd. He even has
a nailgun set up to protect his home from them. Reason enough?

Can't be as affecting as the embedded framing nail head injury you
experienced during puberty.

On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
...

The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
...

Similar vintage; same fence...

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind...l.aspx?id=9654

--


But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.

On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpt wrote:
On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
...

The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
...

Similar vintage; same fence...

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind...l.aspx?id=9654

--


But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.

He did say in his original post to use a shim to keep the insert from
raising up.

Nonetheless, a shim still won't keep modern fences that are only
attached on one end from raising up.

And that ain't "rocket science" either ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/28/2012 9:19 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpt wrote:
On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote:
...

The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to.
...

Similar vintage; same fence...

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind...l.aspx?id=9654

--


But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.

He did say in his original post to use a shim to keep the insert from
raising up.

Nonetheless, a shim still won't keep modern fences that are only
attached on one end from raising up.

And that ain't "rocket science" either ...

Are we maybe worrying this problem to death? Seems to me that all the
back and forth has been enough to insure that everyone knows you need a
snug fit to prevent any movement on the horizontal plane and something
to prevent vertical movement.

This can be accomplished in any number of ways including with a fence
that doesn't lock down at the rear. Got a clamp handy?g

Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
concrete block atop that? Then, and this would apply to ANY means you
choose to use, raise the blade SLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLY through the zero
clearance insert.

On 5/28/2012 9:38 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Are we maybe worrying this problem to death? Seems to me that all the
back and forth has been enough to insure that everyone knows you need a
snug fit to prevent any movement on the horizontal plane and something
to prevent vertical movement.

This can be accomplished in any number of ways including with a fence
that doesn't lock down at the rear. Got a clamp handy?g

LOL ... both of your points above have been previously addressed a
number of times, AND suddenly _you're_ concerned with "worrying the
problem to death" by bringing them up, again?

Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
concrete block atop that? Then, and this would apply to ANY means you
choose to use, raise the blade SLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLY through the zero
clearance insert.

Sure, as long as I can use your $100+ carbide blade to do that ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
....

But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there
is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.

Reread the original dam'd post, Leon.

--

On 5/27/2012 10:22 PM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 5/26/2012 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:

I would NOT have expected that holding the insert down with a push stick
could lead to such dire consequences as occurred here.

No disrespect, but your expectation shows a lack of experience with
using a table saw (not something folks are born with, so don't take that
personally).

None taken. I haven't used a TS since high school, so I'm quite open to
learning good technique. I watched the video twice, it has "everything"
one would need to know (and more technique than most folks probably use).

Well! He wasn't wearing ear muffs, using a face mask, gas mask, blade
guard, chain link gloves, or even a saw stop. He was wasting a good
size hunk of tree which could only result in more carbon dioxide and
less oxygen, so I hardly think his technique had "EVERYTHING" covered.
Not by a long, hand ringing shot.

What really bothers me is after over 50+ years of using notched push
sticks, often two at a time, I find out they are sooner or later going
to rip off a fing-ee or two when they explode...

To be perfectly safe, he should have asked his neighbor/wife/mom to do
the dirty deed whilst he hid in the wood shed, or watched re-runs of Law
and Order.

For your future safety, you will want to pointedly ignore anything
anyone has said, or will say, to the contrary.

Ignore me at your own risk...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:38:59 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
concrete block atop that?

Concrete and table saws don't strike me as a happy pair. But a 2x4 or
4x4 on top of the insert and clamped to the table, or to the rip fence if
it's fastened at both ends, would work fine.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 5/28/2012 11:14 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:38:59 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the
max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a
concrete block atop that?

Concrete and table saws don't strike me as a happy pair. But a 2x4 or
4x4 on top of the insert and clamped to the table, or to the rip fence if
it's fastened at both ends, would work fine.



Read that paragraph again, Larry.

Twas hyperbole, that's all. Just meant weight on the 4x4 hold down
other than one's hand.

And, as the blade would be rising into a 4x4 (as previously stated), I
would have no problem lending my Forrest WWII to the scene as Swingman
suggests.

On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it against. But
trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking to one of
those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry on a
civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not interested.


Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe the
problem is with you and not them.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
have said the same thing.

Be careful out there.


just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"m II" wrote in message ...

....and you just had to announce that to the world?
================================================== ========
Yep. Plonk.

-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
to one of those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
interested.

Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
the problem is with you and not them.

It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare my
words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one of the very
frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.

--

-Mike-

On 5/28/12 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
to one of those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
interested.

Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
the problem is with you and not them.

It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare my
words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one of the very
frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.


That's kind of my point. You always seem to get in these little semantic
arguments with everyone and you just won't let them go. Is it everyone
else who can't understand you, cannot or do not read, infers different
meanings from everything you write.... or is it maybe you who have the
difficulty communicating via text format?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/28/12 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like
talking to one of those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
interested.

Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
the problem is with you and not them.

It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare
my words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one
of the very frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.


That's kind of my point. You always seem to get in these little
semantic arguments with everyone and you just won't let them go. Is
it everyone else who can't understand you, cannot or do not read,
infers different meanings from everything you write.... or is it
maybe you who have the difficulty communicating via text format?

Mike - that may well be a point well taken, and for what it's worth, that
thought is not lost on me. My point is that I have observed this pattern
throughout the group - regardless of the participants. I won't suggest my
participation is any less, or even any more reflective of that. I do admit
that I am the kind of guy that does not let go of these these things soon
enough - again - to your point. But... that's a common thing in this group.

In the case of the above exchange between the two of us - that would
represent something that I hold very dearly. It's one thing to call a guy
on something he actually says. It's quite something else to take his words
to some different statement. I may die a struggling idealist, but that is a
real bug point for me.

There's a lot of macho pride here that just does not like anything they say
being questioned in any way. Once that happens, the ad-homenums start
flying as well as the red herrings that have nothing to do with anything
that had been said - all to make the author feel more manly. I just don't
have much time for that behavior.

Like I have said in the past - I can screw up a lot of things. I really
don't have a problem with that admission. But I do value honest exchange
and honest conversation. Sometimes misunderstandings will occur, and if
pursued honestly, they will be resolved. Around here - there's just too
much of the "I know what you meant... (regardless of what you try to say -
and clarify), " and "I suppose you also...", and those who derive their
sense of value by derriding those around them. It's evident in all of their
posts. Not just within the group - everyone they talk about is somehow
lesser than them. Oh well...

I just don't play life that way. I'm a lot more intrigued by things,
interested in the things I participate in, and concerned for both offering
what I know, and learning new things, than I am for all of the ego that
exists here.

I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too many
here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own good. I've
seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no one escapes their
wrath if they don't knuckle under. Lots of great talent and knowledge here.
More than one way to day most everything right. Lots of people who want to
participate in the process of learning/growing/contributing. Too many that
just can't seen to understand that.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:

More than one way to day most everything
right. Lots of people who want to participate in the process of
learning/growing/contributing. Too many that just can't seen to
understand that.

"More than one way to day... should have been more than one way to DO.

Like I said - I can screw up pretty well...

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:52:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too many
here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own good. I've
seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no one escapes their
wrath if they don't knuckle under.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much
angst into what is said here. People are people and that means that
some personalities are going to be try to dominate every conversation
in this text format.

I'd say almost without exception (almost with certain exceptions),
that if most of us met in person, those dominate personalities would
turn out to be the friendliest people you'd ever want to meet.

What I'm trying to say is that it's this limited medium, and I do
meant *LIMITED* that is causing the problem, not the people
themselves. Take that for what it's worth Mike.

On 5/28/12 6:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/28/12 5:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like
talking to one of those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
interested.

Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
the problem is with you and not them.

It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read. Compare
my words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one
of the very frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.


That's kind of my point. You always seem to get in these little
semantic arguments with everyone and you just won't let them go. Is
it everyone else who can't understand you, cannot or do not read,
infers different meanings from everything you write.... or is it
maybe you who have the difficulty communicating via text format?

Mike - that may well be a point well taken, and for what it's worth, that
thought is not lost on me. My point is that I have observed this pattern
throughout the group - regardless of the participants. I won't suggest my
participation is any less, or even any more reflective of that. I do admit
that I am the kind of guy that does not let go of these these things soon
enough - again - to your point. But... that's a common thing in this group.

In the case of the above exchange between the two of us - that would
represent something that I hold very dearly. It's one thing to call a guy
on something he actually says. It's quite something else to take his words
to some different statement. I may die a struggling idealist, but that is a
real bug point for me.

There's a lot of macho pride here that just does not like anything they say
being questioned in any way. Once that happens, the ad-homenums start
flying as well as the red herrings that have nothing to do with anything
that had been said - all to make the author feel more manly. I just don't
have much time for that behavior.

Like I have said in the past - I can screw up a lot of things. I really
don't have a problem with that admission. But I do value honest exchange
and honest conversation. Sometimes misunderstandings will occur, and if
pursued honestly, they will be resolved. Around here - there's just too
much of the "I know what you meant... (regardless of what you try to say -
and clarify), " and "I suppose you also...", and those who derive their
sense of value by derriding those around them. It's evident in all of their
posts. Not just within the group - everyone they talk about is somehow
lesser than them. Oh well...

I just don't play life that way. I'm a lot more intrigued by things,
interested in the things I participate in, and concerned for both offering
what I know, and learning new things, than I am for all of the ego that
exists here.

I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too many
here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own good. I've
seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no one escapes their
wrath if they don't knuckle under. Lots of great talent and knowledge here.
More than one way to day most everything right. Lots of people who want to
participate in the process of learning/growing/contributing. Too many that
just can't seen to understand that.


I think you need to join our next beer summit hangout on Google+
It's a lot more fun to joke around with each other shoot the sh!t when
you can see each other and you're all a little buzzed. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:52:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
I'm not assigning a percentage to this statement, but there are too
many here who just have to be too damned authoratative for their own
good. I've seen enough over the years to have seen and know that no
one escapes their wrath if they don't knuckle under.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're putting too much
angst into what is said here. People are people and that means that
some personalities are going to be try to dominate every conversation
in this text format.

I'd say almost without exception (almost with certain exceptions),
that if most of us met in person, those dominate personalities would
turn out to be the friendliest people you'd ever want to meet.

What I'm trying to say is that it's this limited medium, and I do
meant *LIMITED* that is causing the problem, not the people
themselves. Take that for what it's worth Mike.

Absolutely - I do not disagree in any way.

Too much angst - again, like I told Mike - perhaps, since I can be the
quintencential idealist in this regard. That said - I just don't want to be
falsly accused because of those who wish they had bigger balls than they
really have. Those to whom it really matters to think they have a big set.
Wrongly accused - I've never backed down from that. The rest of this crap
is just the ego of folks that need to check themselves.

Geezus - since when did this group become a forum where everyone had to be
completely right and those of the rest of us could not articulate our
thoughts - even if they were wrong?

I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through google
and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned expert. I've seen
too many of those fools in my life...

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:49:46 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through google
and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned expert. I've seen
too many of those fools in my life...

But, that's the point here. You're not seeing them, it's just talk.
Talk without a face and all the inflections and mannerisms behind it
has to be taken with a large grain of salt.

Let it go. It's not all that difficult to take the real stuff for what
it's worth and discard the rest. Again, let it go.

-MIKE- wrote:


I think you need to join our next beer summit hangout on Google+
It's a lot more fun to joke around with each other shoot the sh!t when
you can see each other and you're all a little buzzed. :-)

Oh great - the non-drinker... what a fit, huh? (joke...)

--

-Mike-

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:49:46 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
I'm just plain tired of the experts who know it all (a lot through
google and youtube), and feel they have to be the unquestioned
expert. I've seen too many of those fools in my life...

But, that's the point here. You're not seeing them, it's just talk.
Talk without a face and all the inflections and mannerisms behind it
has to be taken with a large grain of salt.

Let it go. It's not all that difficult to take the real stuff for what
it's worth and discard the rest. Again, let it go.

Point taken.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 28 May 2012 21:10:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
Oh great - the non-drinker... what a fit, huh? (joke...)

That's ok. We can spike your brownies with a little weed.

Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 5/27/12 11:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Steve Turner wrote:


To try to get you to understand how the block is more prone to
shifting around with only a single fixed surface to hold it
against. But trying to hold a conversation with you is like talking
to one of those voice recognition systems.

Whatever. You're like so many here are getting to be. Can't carry
on a civil conversation. Screw it - not worth it, and I'm not
interested.

Give it up. When you start see problems with everybody else, maybe
the problem is with you and not them.

It is amazing how many people here either cannot or do not read.

Exaggeration gets people into trouble too! Sometimes people forget to
type the accompanying little smiley face! : )



Compare my
words above to what you took from them Mike. That is one of the very
frustrating aspects of trying to communicate here.

On Sun, 27 May 2012 15:06:49 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 5/27/2012 2:47 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote:
....

While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a
catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a
less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight
movement.

Never seen it...
...

Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's
needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the
cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the opening
in which case it won't be precise, anyway.

Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy
is indeed using a PM 66 fence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eZ9QaOeUxM

FastForward to 2:25, if so inclined.

Thanks Karl, though I've been successful with the fence method, but
there is alway the one time. Working as a commercial electrician
after many safety meeting had it drilled into my head to not stand in
front of 480 volt services when first turned on. They occasionally
explode. So stand to the side or best option is have the apprentice
do it. I thank you for the link as I prefer to keep the functioning
parts of my body out of the danger zone.

Mike M

On 5/28/12 8:10 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:


I think you need to join our next beer summit hangout on Google+
It's a lot more fun to joke around with each other shoot the sh!t when
you can see each other and you're all a little buzzed. :-)

Oh great - the non-drinker... what a fit, huh? (joke...)


You'll fit. No one one in our group is getting wasted.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
have said the same thing.

Be careful out there.


just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.


Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.

On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.

It's a fair bet that, somewhere along his journey to doing woodworking,
the guy in question got hurt from either never had been exposed to, or
misunderstanding, a concept that wasn't precisely stated and/or detailed
enough to rule out the inherent danger in his approach.

Problem with threads that deal with safety (and electrical issues) is
that the devil is in the smallest details, and it often takes a good
deal of discussing the innuendos and things that get left unanswered by
virtue of the medium ... those details that will bite someone in the ass
if left in doubt.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On May 29, 7:03*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:


Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take .....

True and it isn't always the blade of a power tool that gets you.
About 10-12 years ago a friend on our son was passing narrow strips of
hardwood through a thickness planer when the lift mechanism failed
and it threw a strip back at him. It entered his abdomen near his
right side and the end went through him. Missed the important stuff,
and the guys with him had enough sense to leave it in until the EMT's
got there. He spent a couple days in the hospital and was released.

Would that ever happen again? No, but it is just an example of how
feed paths on any tool can be as dangerous as a table saw.

Ron

On 5/29/2012 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.


Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident

I will chime in with RonB in agreement on this point. As I said before, while
I do think that the approach taken by "John" was indeed "boneheaded" (based on
some of my own boneheaded experiences with allowing wood to "move around" while
cutting it on the tablesaw), I do not think he is a moron. However, he did
used to work as an employee of the local Woodcraft, so he *should* have known
better. I just think he got too comfortable in his use of the tablesaw, had a
momentary lapse of reason, and paid the price. I don't EVER allow myself too
feel so comfortable with the machine that I don't slow down and think about
what the hell I'm doing before I hit that button, and what my backup plan will
be if something isn't working like I thought it would.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 5/29/12 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
On 5/28/2012 4:58 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 5/25/2012 10:50 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
A woodworking buddy of mine just told me about an accident that another
acquaintance of ours had about a week ago. Not a fun story.

This fellow (I'll call him John) has a contractor's saw (not sure of the
brand) for which he was preparing to install a new zero-clearance
insert. I don't know whether the insert was home-made or commercially
available, what material it was made of, or whether it had a roll pin
protruding out the back to prevent it from lifting, etc. All I know is
that he needed to raise the blade through the insert to cut the opening.

So John installs the insert and proceeds to hold it down from above with
a block of wood (don't know how big, what kind, or what shape) to keep
it from lifting while raising the blade. The block was sacrificial, and
for some reason he thought it was OK to let the blade cut into the block
as he was raising it while also holding the block in place with a push
stick (one of those long things with a notch at the end; I HATE those
things!). Does this raise any red flags with you yet?

So while John is turning the crank with his right hand to raise the
blade, he is holding the block in place with his left hand (I think he
had his left index finger extended; I'm not sure), and as you might
expect the block shifted around a little bit, and WHAM! The blade grabs
the block and virtually *disintegrates* it, which in turn disintegrates
the push stick, which in turn disintegrates the index finger on John's
left hand. Ten different breaks and fractures in his finger, torn
tendons, and meat hanging off the bone. The doctors told him they might
be able to return it to some semblance of a finger after a half-dozen or
more surgeries, but he just told them to take it off. I probably would
have said the same thing.

Be careful out there.


just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.


Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.


I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.

Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 5/29/2012 10:59 AM, -MIKE- wrote:


just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.


Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.


I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.

Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.



With a few exceptions I probably have spent more time on a TS than most
anyone in this group. And I can say in all honestly that I have been
seriously hurt more than once. I vividly remember that each time I was
no longer cutting wood.

On May 29, 11:58*am, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 5/29/2012 10:59 AM, -MIKE- wrote:











just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.

Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.

I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.

Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.

With a few exceptions I probably have spent more time on a TS than most
anyone in this group. *And I can say in all honestly that I have been
seriously *hurt more than once. *I vividly remember that each time I was
no longer cutting wood.

YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several
seconds after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small
parts I was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly
reached for it. The blade was still moving.

On 5/29/2012 12:25 PM, RonB wrote:
On May 29, 11:58 am, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 5/29/2012 10:59 AM, -MIKE- wrote:











just like any other table saw incident. (they're not accidents). Morons
doing things they shouldn't be doing.

Actually you do not have to be a moron to have an accident, and while
all accidents are preventable every one will eventually die regardless
of what preventative measures they take and 99% of all wood workers will
have some kind of accident and it will be more likely the more they
woodworking they, I don't give a damn who you think you are.
A moron is the person that thinks that he is the safety GOD.

I'm very thankful for the small scar on my finger from the relatively
harmless but nonetheless scary kickback accident I had on my old Ryobi
TS which kick-started my adherence to certain TS safety techniques.

Every time I see the scar, and the rest of the finger protruding after
it, it's a reminder to be thankful and to take the extra steps.

With a few exceptions I probably have spent more time on a TS than most
anyone in this group. And I can say in all honestly that I have been
seriously hurt more than once. I vividly remember that each time I was
no longer cutting wood.

YUP - Me too. The one tablesaw accident I had occurred several
seconds after the motor was turned off. I realized one of the small
parts I was cutting off was still on the table and absent mindedly
reached for it. The blade was still moving.

Damn! I did almost the same except I was reaching for the far end of
the rip fence to remove it, after cutting dado's, after turning the
motor off.