On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 11:36 AM, Leon wrote:
On 1/18/2012 8:26 AM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
drill and bit off of the screw.

If you don't have them, then you need driver bits that socket onto the
screwdriver, not are just held on magnetically. But, it makes me
wonder what it is that you are doing differently or perhaps purchasing
differently. It's quite rare for me to experience what you have.

Do you generally use a drill/driver or have you been using an
impact/driver drill?


I don't use magnetic bit holders, the bits chuck mechanically into
either the impact or drill chuck, and lately the Snappy Quick release
chuck.

Now I may have misspoken, I was referring to screws that fit the bit
tightly enough that you don't have to worry about them falling off. I
often have this problem with square v.s combo screws from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

I buy my driver bits in bulk from Lee Valley Tools. But, I use
magnetic type bits not the shanked ones. (Except for some I bought for
the Yankee Screwdriver clone I bought from them.) I don't know if LV
sells the shanked ones or not. I suspect they do.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 5:52 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:27:31 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/17/2012 9:06 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:46:16 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:04:54 -0500, wrote:

Canadians have known that for over 50 years - "robertson" screws are
VERY common up here. Used to be they were all Canadian made quality
stuff, now much of it is the same cheap Chinese CRAP you guys get
south of the lakes.

Naturally we've know that because Robertson was Canadian. One of the
advantages of Robertson screws is that the square drive gives extra
holding power which permits more torque on the screws. And if you're
adding more torque, then you don't want a cheap version of the screw
that might snap off. ~ Nothing more irritating. That is the biggest
reason to buy better quality when it comes to square drive screws.
The BEAUTY of a robertson screw is you can stick the screw on the
driver - point it vertually ANYWHERE and not worry about loosing the
screw when you try to start it - even into sheet metal or wood with no
pilot hole drilled. Makes it's own awl.

The draw back to the Robertson screw is that you can stick the screw on
the driver and drive the screw into the wood and play hell pulling the
drill and bit off of the screw. Yes this happens more often than I wish
and normally when I am reaching into the back of a cabinet mounting
drawer slides and or supports.
Then you don't have a good robertson bit. Never had a problem getting
the bit out of the head - or keeping it in when i wanted it in.

Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.


My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.

Dave wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.


Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.


The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.

Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
hang onto.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.

I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
year.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
woodchuck wrote:

Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
more?

Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.

Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.

I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.

I get mine from McFeely's, but they're expensive. Local contractor's
lumber yard also carries them, but in limited sizes.

It's a lot more fun that way, too!

-------------
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
Why bother reading what was actually posted when you shoot off your
mouth with opinion and no facts. Hey, works for most of my posts.

Simple Google search for about 30 seconds will get that information
right from the horse's mouth, but....

Unfortunately the information has been removed from the Phillips
manufacturer website, recently

http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml

http://www.justbrits.com/pozi/pozidriv.html


-------------
I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.

-------------
wrote in message ...
Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.

I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
year.
At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.

On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.


The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.

Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
hang onto.


Still not getting it. I can release the drill/driver bit and it will
hang on to the screw. Picture the drill just hanging there connected to
the screw.

"Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
drill.

On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.

That would not surprise me but I have always had this problem now and then.

On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.


Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.

Puckdropper

Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.

If driving the screws I can wiggle the drill ad driver bit back and
forth to facilitate the release.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:49:54 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.

I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
year.
At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.

At $0.80 each, I can find them here, same day, or I can keep a stock
of them as I usually do. Isn't a year long enough life for you?
For decking, driving 3-1/2" or 4" screws into lumber all day is a real
killer of bits. They wear out/round over @ 1,350 lb/in and 2,800bpm.

As with all consumables, I charge the $2.40 to the client. Yeah, I get
what I pay for. The "good" bits from LVT and other places don't hold
up much better, and they will snap at the tip, leaving the aluminum
holder intact. The occasional bad bits from other sources @ $2-3
apiece don't hold up nearly as well.

I'm very happy with the $0.80 bits. I get ten to your one with decent
life. What's -not- to like? They're a very good value.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

On 1/18/2012 7:36 PM, wrote:
g
the bit out of the head - or keeping it in when i wanted it in.

Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.


My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.


I'll look into that. May I ask how many screws you typically go through
in a year?

I am noticing that the bits may actually be Racky brand bits sold by
Rack-a-Tiers, an electrical supply company. And that probably explains
why they are more expensive although buying on line puts them in the
$3.95~$4.95 range.

http://www.rack-a-tiers.com/products...red-Racky-Bits

And Sold here

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...Racky_Bits.htm

On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.

Thinking more about this, I wonder if the heat generated when driving or
removing the screw causes the bit to grab the bit more tightly. That
would certainly explain why this is not a constant problem.

On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.


The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.

Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
hang onto.



Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.

On 1/19/2012 6:39 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:49:54 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.

I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
year.
At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.

At $0.80 each, I can find them here, same day, or I can keep a stock
of them as I usually do. Isn't a year long enough life for you?
For decking, driving 3-1/2" or 4" screws into lumber all day is a real
killer of bits. They wear out/round over @ 1,350 lb/in and 2,800bpm.

As with all consumables, I charge the $2.40 to the client. Yeah, I get
what I pay for. The "good" bits from LVT and other places don't hold
up much better, and they will snap at the tip, leaving the aluminum
holder intact. The occasional bad bits from other sources @ $2-3
apiece don't hold up nearly as well.

I'm very happy with the $0.80 bits. I get ten to your one with decent
life. What's -not- to like? They're a very good value.


Life expectancy is not the issue, being able to simply remove the bit
from the screw is.

On 1/19/12 8:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.

Thinking more about this, I wonder if the heat generated when driving or
removing the screw causes the bit to grab the bit more tightly. That
would certainly explain why this is not a constant problem.

Are you using summer screws or winter screws? :-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

"FrozenNorth" wrote in message
...
On 1/19/12 8:09 AM, Leon wrote:
On 1/18/2012 7:22 PM, Dave wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to
work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.

Thinking more about this, I wonder if the heat generated when driving or
removing the screw causes the bit to grab the bit more tightly. That
would certainly explain why this is not a constant problem.

Are you using summer screws or winter screws? :-)

Yeah... that could be it as the type of "coat" they wear could be a
factor.... the light grey hot dipped ones seems to be sticker than the newer
dark ones... ;~)

John

On 1/19/2012 7:00 AM, Leon wrote:

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...Racky_Bits.htm

Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one!
How many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:30:45 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.


The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.

Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
hang onto.


Still not getting it. I can release the drill/driver bit and it will
hang on to the screw. Picture the drill just hanging there connected to
the screw.

"Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
drill.

I guess we Left Coasters just think a little bit differently than you
Texicans, Leon.

So, do you need to buy better bits which don't stick as badly, or do
you need to buy cheaper bits which don't stick as badly? Pick one.

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:14:21 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 9:51 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:18:05 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 7:09 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:


Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Do you use ball retainer types? They can usually be pulled without
too much wiggling. Wire clip retainer types or magnetics will lost
the bit when you do that. I switched over to ball retainer and have
been much happier with square drive deck screws, those I use the most.


The problem is not removing the bit from the drill, it is removing the
bit from the screw.

Au contraire, mon ami. If your bit sticks in the screw but isn't well
retained, the drill comes away without it. The ball retainer gives it
more oomph to pull out when it sticks because you have to drill to
hang onto.



Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.

Buy harder screws which don't tend to stick to the bit?

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:35:37 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.


Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.

Puckdropper

Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.

Tap the screw sideways on a piece of scrap or the ground. It'll come
off. Or stick with phillips and/or torx.

I would never suggest that anyone use a flat blade type screwdriver.
AAMOF, I believe they've outlawed them in England now. heh

--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman

In article
writes:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.

I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.

Mainly I can find references to more recent cross-slot designs being
intentionally designed not to cam out the Phillips do. That's more
recognition of how they work than it is backing up a claim of intent.

Phillip's patent certainly doesn't acknowledge the cam-out. It
suggests the design is more effective for high torque (and compared
with slotted drivers it is).

The only reference I see to camming action is the claim (about screw
and driver meeting):

This same angular formation of both elements is especially designed
to also create what might be termed a camming action during the
approach of these angular faces toward one another with respect to
any substances which might have become lodged within the recess of
the screw.

He continues to claim that this action causes the driver to expell
any gunk that was in the screw.

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=2046837


Of course, high-torque cam-out may have been added in later refinements
to the design.

--
Drew Lawson While they all shake hands
and draw their lines in the sand
and forget about the mess they've made

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 07:16:26 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/19/2012 6:39 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:49:54 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:56:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:36:22 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:07:19 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
Where would one get a good Robertson bit? I get mine from McFeeleys and
Kreg.

My current set are Rack-a-Tiers. Bought them at my local electrical
supply house - Guillevin International.. The beggars were $8 each, or
something like that - but they WORK.

I pay about $0.80 apiece for mine. I go through 2 or 3 per deck using
the Makita impact driver. On the Ryobi drill driver, they last for a
year.
At $0.80 each you get what you pay for - mabee.

At $0.80 each, I can find them here, same day, or I can keep a stock
of them as I usually do. Isn't a year long enough life for you?
For decking, driving 3-1/2" or 4" screws into lumber all day is a real
killer of bits. They wear out/round over @ 1,350 lb/in and 2,800bpm.

As with all consumables, I charge the $2.40 to the client. Yeah, I get
what I pay for. The "good" bits from LVT and other places don't hold
up much better, and they will snap at the tip, leaving the aluminum
holder intact. The occasional bad bits from other sources @ $2-3
apiece don't hold up nearly as well.

I'm very happy with the $0.80 bits. I get ten to your one with decent
life. What's -not- to like? They're a very good value.


Life expectancy is not the issue, being able to simply remove the bit
from the screw is.
Correct. A properly shaped bit that STAYS that way.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:13:56 +0000 (UTC), lid (Drew
Lawson) wrote:

In article
writes:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.

I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.

Mainly I can find references to more recent cross-slot designs being
intentionally designed not to cam out the Phillips do. That's more
recognition of how they work than it is backing up a claim of intent.

Phillip's patent certainly doesn't acknowledge the cam-out. It
suggests the design is more effective for high torque (and compared
with slotted drivers it is).

The only reference I see to camming action is the claim (about screw
and driver meeting):

This same angular formation of both elements is especially designed
to also create what might be termed a camming action during the
approach of these angular faces toward one another with respect to
any substances which might have become lodged within the recess of
the screw.

He continues to claim that this action causes the driver to expell
any gunk that was in the screw.

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=2046837


Of course, high-torque cam-out may have been added in later refinements
to the design.
I believe it happens - I just do not believe it was " Designed to do
it"

I have a bit, I use right now, on a Milwaukee impact screwdriver that sticks
inside screws badly. It has seen a lot of wear and tear and when it sticks
there is no "wiggling it back and forth". The damn screws won't come off
with a hammer! I have to screw the screw back into the hole of a piece of
wood and use the leverage of the drill to "snap" them apart.

This is from using the non-Robertson (SquareDrive) screws on the Robertson
bit. Impact drivers make this situation worse, faster. The square edged
sockets of the screws cut into the taper of the Robertson bit and eventually
put notches in the corners of the bit so the screw can wedge itself onto the
bit by hooking onto the edges of the notches..

Yeah, even the good Robertson bits need to be replaced every few thousand
screws. Funny how the old cheap ones are still working but the new ones, no
matter what you pay work for a few weeks.

Don't buy the Robertson coloured bits at HD, in Canada. I have tried a few
that came out in the last year, or so, and they are good for a dozen screws
and then garbage. Yes, they appeared to have hardened insert tips in them,
too and they were about $4 each.

------------
"Leon" wrote in message
...
Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

Now having said that I have been using square drive screws for probably
25+ years exclusively except when they are not available. I have no
intention of switching.

Was the name supposed to give us a clue?

------
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one!
How many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"

On 1/19/2012 8:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/19/2012 7:00 AM, Leon wrote:

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...Racky_Bits.htm

Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one! How
many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"

LOL!

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak
wrote:

John Grossbohlin wrote the following:

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck wrote:
My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
square drive. No longer.

HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their
own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start
driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different
sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler
that has all the drivers I could want so I am usually good.

Do you mean Torx head screws?


They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm



They are what I use for deck screws...
far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
if you don't get the bit fully seated.

John


The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
USA.

Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone stealing
the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only manufactured and sold in
Canada for this reason. This is why they never took hold in the States.

I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured with
Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside


--
PV

"This sig left intentionally blank"

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 22:17:39 -0700, "PV" edrnouser@ spam telus.net
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500, willshak
wrote:

John Grossbohlin wrote the following:

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
On Jan 17, 9:25 am, woodchuck wrote:
My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
square drive. No longer.

HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their
own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start
driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different
sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler
that has all the drivers I could want so I am usually good.

Do you mean Torx head screws?


They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm



They are what I use for deck screws...
far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
if you don't get the bit fully seated.

John


The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
USA.

Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone stealing
the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only manufactured and sold in
Canada for this reason. This is why they never took hold in the States.

I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured with
Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside
The fact they were only MADE in Canada is only an excuse for them to
not be used in the USA. There are a LOT of things only made in the USA
that are /were extensively used in Canada..

On 1/19/2012 9:02 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

"Nothing" separates. I often have to screw the removed screw into a
scrap of wood to be able to have enough grip to separate it from the
driver bit. I have no problems with the driver bit coming off of the
drill.

I guess we Left Coasters just think a little bit differently than you
Texicans, Leon.

So, do you need to buy better bits which don't stick as badly, or do
you need to buy cheaper bits which don't stick as badly? Pick one.


Yes! That is a definite maybe. HUH? ;~)


Many years ago I used to show friends how well the SD screws stuck to
the driver bit totally unlike a Philips head screw. Almost every time I
am on my hands and knees inside a kitchen cabinet repairing or
installing brackets for drawer slides the screw sticks in the driver,
and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.. ER uh I wish these
screws did not to this. LOL

On 1/19/2012 9:04 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:



Let me explain it this way, imagine putting a drop of super glue in the
head of the screw and letting it cure with the bit inserted. It is that
tight of a fit. Pulling on the drill and bit does not separate
anything. Working the drill and bit back and forth 2~3 seconds finally
works the bit free of the screw. AND that is easier when driving
screws. Removing screws is a bigger problem.

Buy harder screws which don't tend to stick to the bit?



Well I think I am buying pretty hard screws, they seem to never misform
and I almost exclusively use McFeeleys and Kreg screws. I don't want
screws crapping out on me.

On another note and response I mentioned that it may be the heat
generated that causes the screw to tighten up on the driver.

On 1/19/2012 9:08 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 06:35:37 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/18/2012 8:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:40:11 -0600, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet

Basically I can have to wiggle the driver and bit back and forth to work
it loose from the screw. This is a reap PIA when removing several
screws and they will not come loose from the driver bit.

The reason I asked if you were using an impact drill/driver is that
I've heard of some brands of Robertson screws misshapen slightly when
the impact driver is working. It causes the screw to grab tighter to
the bit.


Sometimes if the bit gets stuck in the screw head, all you have to do is
reverse the driver slightly. Usually releases the bit quite effectively.

Puckdropper

Unless you are removing the screw. ;~) This is really a PIA when
removing screws and cannot easily remove them from the bit.

Tap the screw sideways on a piece of scrap or the ground. It'll come
off. Or stick with phillips and/or torx.

Believe it or not I have tried that and that does not always work.
Typically I have to drive the screw into a scrap piece of wood and then
pull on the drill while working it back and forth. It is not an always
thing but it seems to happen when I am inside a cabinet.



I would never suggest that anyone use a flat blade type screwdriver.
AAMOF, I believe they've outlawed them in England now.heh

I never use a flat blade to insert a screw, I only use it to remove a
screw. If the screw needs to be replaced it is with a square drive
screw. Big flat blades drivers make decent pry bars in a pinch though.

On 1/19/2012 8:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/19/2012 7:00 AM, Leon wrote:

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/S...Racky_Bits.htm

Oh boy, how handy, color coded bit drivers: "No Jesus, the fuschia one!
How many times I gotta told you, two? You musta voted for Butch!"


I guess you have noticed that. LOL Color coded have been available for
quite a few years now. Mose of mine from Mcfeeleys are color coded.

On 1/19/2012 11:17 PM, PV wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:42:34 -0500,
wrote:

John Grossbohlin wrote the following:

wrote in message
...
On Jan 17, 9:25 am, wrote:
My old HD used to carry a drywall sort of screw that had the
square drive. No longer.

HD and Lowes carry deck screws with star heads. HD has them at one
extreme end of the screw area and Lowes usually has them in their
own space somewhere near the nails. Each box comes with the start
driver (a tiny one) and for some reason they have a few different
sizes which can be a hassle. I have an Itsy setup from Rockler
that has all the drivers I could want so I am usually good.

Do you mean Torx head screws?


They're not Torx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
Square bits are square http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/718serie.htm



They are what I use for deck screws...
far superior to Phillips in that they don't strip out easily even
if you don't get the bit fully seated.

John


The are, officially, called ROBERTSON socket drive screws, or
SCRULOX. It was invented in Canada - so, Americans being as xenophobic
as they have been over the decades, it never really took hold in the
USA.

Mr Robertson refused to license his invention, he feared someone stealing
the design. The screws and screwdrivers were only manufactured and sold in
Canada for this reason. This is why they never took hold in the States.

That is probably close but in reality I suspect that Mr. Robertson could
not prevent any one from stealing the design, a license would not
increase the chance or prevent some one from stealing a design.

As I understood it he introduced the design to Ford when Ford was
looking for a better screw. Ford wanted to make a one time payment for
the rights to make the screws himself, Robertson refused, I suspect he
wanted to make and get paid for every screw. As it turned out Ford
ended up with the Philips style screw which in hind sight was a better
screw for mass production assembly.


I shipped a wood crate to head office in Texas, the lid was secured with
Robertson screws. Told them the screwdriver was inside


I suspect we would use out stolen design screw driver to remove the
Robertson screws.

On 1/18/2012 10:02 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:36:25 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In ,
wrote:

Or -- has square drive just become obsolete? Do I need to get out
more?

Au contraire; square drive is the future, IMHO.

Fun trivia fact: the Phillips head is *designed* to cam out when you
tighten them. It's to keep you from over-torquing them.

I'd like someone to come up with a CREDIBLE cite on that.
It appears to fall into the "urban legend" realm.



http://www.marfas.com/phillips.shtml