"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
b.com...
"Leon" wrote:

And what in the last 50 years has that acomplished?

Surely you jest.




How are things in California these days?

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...

On Nov 25, 9:29 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:23:04 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"

wrote:
Tom "The Hammer" Delay was finally found guilty today in a Texas court
snip -- Minna Thomas Antrim

Corruption and greed know no partisan affiliations. Neither does
stupidity.

I whole heartily agree!

If the central government were chosen and paid by Ben's thoughts, corruption
and greed might be under tighter control:
They are of the People, and return again to mix with the People, having no
more durable preeminence than the different Grains of Sand in an Hourglass.
Such an Assembly cannot easily become dangerous to Liberty. They are the
Servants of the People, sent together to do the People's Business, and
promote the public Welfare; their Powers must be sufficient, or their Duties
cannot be performed. They have no profitable Appointments, but a mere
Payment of daily Wages, such as are scarcely equivalent to their Expences;
so that, having no Chance for great Places, and enormous Salaries or
Pensions, as in some Countries, there is no triguing or bribing for
Elections.
Benjamin Franklin, letter to George Whatley, May 23, 1785

Of course the children of all generations have to be taught...
It should be your care, therefore, and mine, to elevate the minds of our
children and exalt their courage; to accelerate and animate their industry
and activity; to excite in them an habitual contempt of meanness, abhorrence
of injustice and inhumanity, and an ambition to excel in every capacity,
faculty, and virtue. If we suffer their minds to grovel and creep in
infancy, they will grovel all their lives.
John Adams, Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1756

And the "PC" crowd has done much to suppress it...
Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is
the only foundation of republics. There must be a positive passion for the
public good, the public interest, honour, power and glory, established in
the minds of the people, or there can be no republican government, nor any
real liberty: and this public passion must be superior to all private
passions.
John Adams, letter to Mercy Warren, April 16, 1776

At the establishment of our constitutions, the judiciary bodies were
supposed to be the most helpless and harmless members of the government.
Experience, however, soon showed in what way they were to become the most
dangerous; that the insufficiency of the means provided for their removal
gave them a freehold and irresponsibility in office; that their decisions,
seeming to concern individual suitors only, pass silent and unheeded by the
public at large; that these decisions, nevertheless, become law by
precedent, sapping, by little and little, the foundations of the
constitution, and working its change by construction, before any one has
perceived that that invisible and helpless worm has been busily employed in
consuming its substance. In truth, man is not made to be trusted for life,
if secured against all liability to account.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Monsieur A. Coray, Oct 31, 1823


Tom

Well we're finally getting to build here in TN, and an attached shop is
included... 29' X 29'.
I could only get 8' walls since the rest of the house has them, and the roof
would have looked weird to match a higher wall. My son in law is the
contractor, and I've been "swapping time" helping him with other houses
(plus trying to get a new practice going on a shoe string) so I haven't had
time to drop by the Wreck like I used to...
It's nice to see so many familiar names (and take a moment to remember those
that are longer with us).

"Tom B" wrote in message
b.com...



"Robatoy" wrote in message
...

lot'sa snippage (excuse my grammer ;)

I don't have a clue why this didn't show up in the proper thread... my
apologies
Tom

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:09:19 -0600, "Tom B"
wrote:

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...

On Nov 25, 9:29 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:23:04 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"

wrote:
Tom "The Hammer" Delay was finally found guilty today in a Texas court
snip -- Minna Thomas Antrim

Corruption and greed know no partisan affiliations. Neither does
stupidity.

I whole heartily agree!

If the central government were chosen and paid by Ben's thoughts, corruption
and greed might be under tighter control:
They are of the People, and return again to mix with the People, having no
more durable preeminence than the different Grains of Sand in an Hourglass.
Such an Assembly cannot easily become dangerous to Liberty. They are the
Servants of the People, sent together to do the People's Business, and
promote the public Welfare; their Powers must be sufficient, or their Duties
cannot be performed. They have no profitable Appointments, but a mere
Payment of daily Wages, such as are scarcely equivalent to their Expences;
so that, having no Chance for great Places, and enormous Salaries or
Pensions, as in some Countries, there is no triguing or bribing for
Elections.
Benjamin Franklin, letter to George Whatley, May 23, 1785

Savvy man, that Ben.


Of course the children of all generations have to be taught...
It should be your care, therefore, and mine, to elevate the minds of our
children and exalt their courage; to accelerate and animate their industry
and activity; to excite in them an habitual contempt of meanness, abhorrence
of injustice and inhumanity, and an ambition to excel in every capacity,
faculty, and virtue. If we suffer their minds to grovel and creep in
infancy, they will grovel all their lives.
John Adams, Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1756

John knew what the gov't welfare roles would turn out, didn't he?


And the "PC" crowd has done much to suppress it...
Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is
the only foundation of republics. There must be a positive passion for the
public good, the public interest, honour, power and glory, established in
the minds of the people, or there can be no republican government, nor any
real liberty: and this public passion must be superior to all private
passions.
John Adams, letter to Mercy Warren, April 16, 1776

I don't think I can name one single CONgresscritter who feels that
way. It's all "ME, ME, ME, more for me!"


At the establishment of our constitutions, the judiciary bodies were
supposed to be the most helpless and harmless members of the government.
Experience, however, soon showed in what way they were to become the most
dangerous; that the insufficiency of the means provided for their removal
gave them a freehold and irresponsibility in office; that their decisions,
seeming to concern individual suitors only, pass silent and unheeded by the
public at large; that these decisions, nevertheless, become law by
precedent, sapping, by little and little, the foundations of the
constitution, and working its change by construction, before any one has
perceived that that invisible and helpless worm has been busily employed in
consuming its substance. In truth, man is not made to be trusted for life,
if secured against all liability to account.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Monsieur A. Coray, Oct 31, 1823

I hadn't realized that judicial corruption was that entrenched way
back then.


Well we're finally getting to build here in TN, and an attached shop is
included... 29' X 29'.
I could only get 8' walls since the rest of the house has them, and the roof
would have looked weird to match a higher wall. My son in law is the

One word: EXCAVATE! then pour an 18" sunken slab (perhaps with a sump
pump in the corner, just in case.)


contractor, and I've been "swapping time" helping him with other houses

Cool!


(plus trying to get a new practice going on a shoe string) so I haven't had
time to drop by the Wreck like I used to...

Practice? Ain'tcha got it down _yet_?


It's nice to see so many familiar names (and take a moment to remember those
that are longer with us).

Welcome back, Tom. waves

--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


A big problem with the current system is that nobody alive today had
any real say in its creation, we inherited it and nobody ever asked
us if we were cool with continuing it.

I'm not sure that defines it as a problem.

I'm with you, Mike. I don't think there's a politician allive who had
the intelligence, foresight, determination, call of duty, self-
lessness, or moral ethics of our forefathers. And, unfortunately, I
don't expect to ever see that from a politician in my lifetime.



Excuse me! Every damn one of them was in it for the money! Do you
disremember what started it?

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:56:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


A big problem with the current system is that nobody alive today had
any real say in its creation, we inherited it and nobody ever asked
us if we were cool with continuing it.

I'm not sure that defines it as a problem.

I'm with you, Mike. I don't think there's a politician allive who had
the intelligence, foresight, determination, call of duty, self-
lessness, or moral ethics of our forefathers. And, unfortunately, I
don't expect to ever see that from a politician in my lifetime.

Excuse me! Every damn one of them was in it for the money! Do you
disremember what started it?

I must. Kindly undisremember me on it, will ya, Lob?

--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:56:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


A big problem with the current system is that nobody alive today had
any real say in its creation, we inherited it and nobody ever asked
us if we were cool with continuing it.

I'm not sure that defines it as a problem.

I'm with you, Mike. I don't think there's a politician allive who had
the intelligence, foresight, determination, call of duty, self-
lessness, or moral ethics of our forefathers. And, unfortunately, I
don't expect to ever see that from a politician in my lifetime.

Excuse me! Every damn one of them was in it for the money! Do you
disremember what started it?

I must. Kindly undisremember me on it, will ya, Lob?



Taxation.

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

"Han" wrote in message ...


The first time I voted in Holland after coming of age, so to speak, it
was also compulsory. Maybe we should get a $25 tax credit for voting,
but unfortunately that doesn't guarantee candidates that you wold want to
vote for.


How about they add $500 to your taxes, and you only get it refunded if you
attach your voting receipt to your tax return.

"Leon" wrote in message
...


Do you actually think that voting for the lessor of two evils is better
than not voting at all?

Yes, because it's better than the greater of two evils being elected.

You have 3 choices, play the game you cannot win, play the game and loose,
or don't play the game.

Actually that's only two choices, as one and two have the same outcome. And
you're assuming that elections never have positive outcomes, while at the
very least some elections prevent something even worse from happening.

IMHO voting for some you you don't believe in sends the wrong message.

Not voting sends a worse message, it tells politicians people don't care
what happens and so the politicians can do as they please.

IMHO, if you don't vote, don't bitch should apply.

I think just the opposite, you vote, you don't bitch. Goes with the
adage, you made your bed, now lay in it.

How about the best of both worlds, we all vote and we all bitch.

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...


"Han" wrote in message ...


The first time I voted in Holland after coming of age, so to speak, it
was also compulsory. Maybe we should get a $25 tax credit for voting,
but unfortunately that doesn't guarantee candidates that you wold want to
vote for.


How about they add $500 to your taxes, and you only get it refunded if you
attach your voting receipt to your tax return.


If someone needs financial incentive, they shouldn't be voting to begin
with.

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...


"Leon" wrote in message
...


Do you actually think that voting for the lessor of two evils is better
than not voting at all?

Yes, because it's better than the greater of two evils being elected.

You have 3 choices, play the game you cannot win, play the game and
loose, or don't play the game.

Actually that's only two choices, as one and two have the same outcome.
And you're assuming that elections never have positive outcomes, while at
the very least some elections prevent something even worse from happening.

IMHO voting for some you you don't believe in sends the wrong message.

Not voting sends a worse message, it tells politicians people don't care
what happens and so the politicians can do as they please.

IMHO, if you don't vote, don't bitch should apply.

I think just the opposite, you vote, you don't bitch. Goes with the
adage, you made your bed, now lay in it.

How about the best of both worlds, we all vote and we all bitch.




Human nature says everyone will bitch about anything and everything whether
or not they are asked to vote on it.

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in
:

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...


"Han" wrote in message
...


The first time I voted in Holland after coming of age, so to speak,
it was also compulsory. Maybe we should get a $25 tax credit for
voting, but unfortunately that doesn't guarantee candidates that you
wold want to vote for.


How about they add $500 to your taxes, and you only get it refunded
if you attach your voting receipt to your tax return.


If someone needs financial incentive, they shouldn't be voting to
begin with.

a) I have so far never received a receipt for voting, either in NY or
NJ.

b) I really do think that financial incentives are very important in
voting behavior, though so far mostly indirectly. "Tax the other guy,
not me".

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:17:10 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:56:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


A big problem with the current system is that nobody alive today had
any real say in its creation, we inherited it and nobody ever asked
us if we were cool with continuing it.

I'm not sure that defines it as a problem.

I'm with you, Mike. I don't think there's a politician allive who had
the intelligence, foresight, determination, call of duty, self-
lessness, or moral ethics of our forefathers. And, unfortunately, I
don't expect to ever see that from a politician in my lifetime.

Excuse me! Every damn one of them was in it for the money! Do you
disremember what started it?

I must. Kindly undisremember me on it, will ya, Lob?

Taxation.

Current legislators grovel for money, while our forefathers helped us
against the unfair taxation by a furrin country. Where do you get the
"in it for the money" bit? Their pay for serving in the gov't back
then was a pittance and they were mostly well-off landowners. They
took no kickbacks nor campaigned for money like our CONgresscritters
do today.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:38:36 -0800, "DGDevin"
wrote:

"Han" wrote in message ...


The first time I voted in Holland after coming of age, so to speak, it
was also compulsory. Maybe we should get a $25 tax credit for voting,
but unfortunately that doesn't guarantee candidates that you wold want to
vote for.


How about they add $500 to your taxes, and you only get it refunded if you
attach your voting receipt to your tax return.

IDIOT! Don't give them ideas!

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure they'll give it back.
They're from the gov't and they're here to help you.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

HeyBub wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:
Tom "The Hammer" Delay was finally found guilty today in a Texas
court of law today of money laundering ($190K) committed in 2002.

Sometimes the wheels of justice grind slow, but they also grind fine.



A bit of history here. In 2001 the Texas House consisted of 78
Democrats and 72 Republicans, and Congressional House seats were
17-15 in favor of the Democrats.

DeLay (and others) set out to elect more Republicans to the Texas
House so that they could redistrict the Congressional seats more to
the benefit of the Republicans.

Sure enough, the 2002 elections resulted in a Republican majority in
the Texas House. The state legislature then redistricted the
Congressional seats in time for the 2006 elections. The result of
this is that the Texas congressional delegation in January will
consist of 9 Democrats and 23 Republicans. a shift of eight seats
from Democrats to the GOP.
Amongst the machinations (and court challenges) involved in this
effort was $190,000 raised by the DeLay group to assist Republican
Texas House candidates. Prohibited by law, DeLay's group could not
give the money they raised directly to the Republican candidates, but
the Republican National Committee could. So DeLay's group donated the
money they raised to the RNC and the RNC turned around and gave the
money to the Texas Republican Committee (TRC), who, in turn,
disbursed it to the candidates.
It was this hop DeLay-RNC-TRC-candidates that got DeLay charged, and
subsequently convicted, of money laundering.

Further refreshing of my memory reveals that Texas law regarding "money
laundering" at the time specified that the money laundered had to be the
result of an illegal activity. Inasmuch as the money raised by DeLay's group
was in no way the fruit of an illegal effort, I suspect DeLay's convictions
will be overturned as a matter of law.

On 11/30/2010 9:04 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:17:10 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:56:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


A big problem with the current system is that nobody alive today had
any real say in its creation, we inherited it and nobody ever asked
us if we were cool with continuing it.

I'm not sure that defines it as a problem.

I'm with you, Mike. I don't think there's a politician alive who had
the intelligence, foresight, determination, call of duty, self-
lessness, or moral ethics of our forefathers. And, unfortunately, I
don't expect to ever see that from a politician in my lifetime.

Excuse me! Every damn one of them was in it for the money! Do you
disremember what started it?

I must. Kindly undisremember me on it, will ya, Lob?

Taxation.

Current legislators grovel for money, while our forefathers helped us
against the unfair taxation by a furrin country. Where do you get the
"in it for the money" bit? Their pay for serving in the gov't back
then was a pittance and they were mostly well-off landowners. They
took no kickbacks nor campaigned for money like our CONgresscritters
do today.

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

Out of 535 congress critters there are 261 millionaires. Only 1% of
Americans taken as a whole can say the same.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:17:10 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:56:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
m...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:


A big problem with the current system is that nobody alive today had
any real say in its creation, we inherited it and nobody ever asked
us if we were cool with continuing it.

I'm not sure that defines it as a problem.

I'm with you, Mike. I don't think there's a politician allive who had
the intelligence, foresight, determination, call of duty, self-
lessness, or moral ethics of our forefathers. And, unfortunately, I
don't expect to ever see that from a politician in my lifetime.

Excuse me! Every damn one of them was in it for the money! Do you
disremember what started it?

I must. Kindly undisremember me on it, will ya, Lob?

Taxation.

Current legislators grovel for money, while our forefathers helped us
against the unfair taxation by a furrin country. Where do you get the
"in it for the money" bit? Their pay for serving in the gov't back
then was a pittance and they were mostly well-off landowners. They
took no kickbacks nor campaigned for money like our CONgresscritters
do today.


Who benefitted the most?

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 23:48:38 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:17:10 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

Taxation.

Current legislators grovel for money, while our forefathers helped us
against the unfair taxation by a furrin country. Where do you get the
"in it for the money" bit? Their pay for serving in the gov't back
then was a pittance and they were mostly well-off landowners. They
took no kickbacks nor campaigned for money like our CONgresscritters
do today.


Who benefitted the most?

The American people?

--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 23:48:38 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 22:17:10 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

Taxation.

Current legislators grovel for money, while our forefathers helped us
against the unfair taxation by a furrin country. Where do you get the
"in it for the money" bit? Their pay for serving in the gov't back
then was a pittance and they were mostly well-off landowners. They
took no kickbacks nor campaigned for money like our CONgresscritters
do today.


Who benefitted the most?

The American people?

In the long run.


--
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball!



--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...