The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.

At least there is one small bright spot in this man made tragedy.

Lew

On May 2, 7:20*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.

At least there is one small bright spot in this man made tragedy.

Lew

From a Halliburton press kit:

"Halliburton continues to assist in efforts to identify the factors
that may have lead up to the disaster, but it is premature and
irresponsible to speculate on any specific causal issues."
Is a company that very well may have been responsible for the loss of
11 human lives and a massive economic/ecological disaster really
lecturing us not to speculate on the catastrophe’s causes?
==============

Let the blames begin!

Lew Hodgett wrote:
The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.


What ya' want...I see no reason for shutting anything down...any venture
w/ reward has risk. Once the event analysis is done, whatever is
learned will be extended.

--

On 2010-05-02 20:17:06 -0400, dpb said:

What ya' want...I see no reason for shutting anything down...any
venture w/ reward has risk. Once the event analysis is done, whatever
is learned will be extended.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be great if some of theis high-priced "talent"
could think this **** through before hand? Or maybe we just misheard it
all -- and it was "Spill, baby, spill!"

On Sun, 2 May 2010 16:20:13 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.

At least there is one small bright spot in this man made tragedy.

Lew


Not only are you a pathetic bigot you are a troll too.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

"Steve" wrote
On 2010-05-02 20:17:06 -0400, dpb said:

What ya' want...I see no reason for shutting anything down...any venture
w/ reward has risk. Once the event analysis is done, whatever is learned
will be extended.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be great if some of theis high-priced "talent" could
think this **** through before hand? Or maybe we just misheard it all --
and it was "Spill, baby, spill!"


They can and do think of everything. Just as the Titanic is unsinkable,
every engineering possibility will be considered.

As long as humans engineer and build things, they will continue to break.

I recall reading in early news articles of this incident, that BP had
considered an event of this scale and nature in their risk analysis to
create a response plan, but discarded it as they considered it extremely
unlikely to occur - their high priced talent crossed it off the list of
possible occurrences.

When a company puts an oil rig in place to exercise its American rights
license, do they file a disaster / reaction plan with some US Agency ?
And if so, does that Agency review the plan and respond with an acceptance
or denial of permission to proceed with drilling?

Now for my cynical thoughts on this ...
If there is, does said Agency have any authority or is toothless
administrative appendage?
If there is no Agency, look at the opportunity to create new employment !
If there is such an Agency, maybe there will be some restructuring happening
soon, with some replacement hirings.



"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote
On 2010-05-02 20:17:06 -0400, dpb said:

What ya' want...I see no reason for shutting anything down...any venture
w/ reward has risk. Once the event analysis is done, whatever is
learned will be extended.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be great if some of theis high-priced "talent"
could think this **** through before hand? Or maybe we just misheard it
all -- and it was "Spill, baby, spill!"


They can and do think of everything. Just as the Titanic is unsinkable,
every engineering possibility will be considered.

As long as humans engineer and build things, they will continue to break.

On 5/2/2010 9:00 PM, Steve wrote:
On 2010-05-02 20:17:06 -0400, dpb said:

What ya' want...I see no reason for shutting anything down...any
venture w/ reward has risk. Once the event analysis is done, whatever
is learned will be extended.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be great if some of theis high-priced "talent"
could think this **** through before hand? Or maybe we just misheard it
all -- and it was "Spill, baby, spill!"

So why don't you apply for a job showing these people you consider to be
incompetent how it's done?

Engineering is always trivially easy to people who don't actually have
to do it.

On 5/2/2010 10:53 PM, Matt wrote:
I recall reading in early news articles of this incident, that BP had
considered an event of this scale and nature in their risk analysis to
create a response plan, but discarded it as they considered it extremely
unlikely to occur - their high priced talent crossed it off the list of
possible occurrences.

When a company puts an oil rig in place to exercise its American rights
license, do they file a disaster / reaction plan with some US Agency ?
And if so, does that Agency review the plan and respond with an acceptance
or denial of permission to proceed with drilling?

Now for my cynical thoughts on this ...
If there is, does said Agency have any authority or is toothless
administrative appendage?
If there is no Agency, look at the opportunity to create new employment !
If there is such an Agency, maybe there will be some restructuring happening
soon, with some replacement hirings.

Or maybe calmer heads will prevail and instead of looking for excuses to
create new boondoggles or axe the blameless, they'll figure out what
went wrong and fix the design of the BOP so that it doesn't happen again.

"Ed wrote in message
...

wrote
On 2010-05-02 20:17:06 -0400, said:

What ya' want...I see no reason for shutting anything down...any venture
w/ reward has risk. Once the event analysis is done, whatever is
learned will be extended.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be great if some of theis high-priced "talent"
could think this **** through before hand? Or maybe we just misheard it
all -- and it was "Spill, baby, spill!"


They can and do think of everything. Just as the Titanic is unsinkable,
every engineering possibility will be considered.

As long as humans engineer and build things, they will continue to break.

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

Or maybe calmer heads will prevail and instead of looking for excuses to
create new boondoggles or axe the blameless, they'll figure out what
went wrong and fix the design of the BOP so that it doesn't happen again.

I'm a cynic. As long as the BOP gadgets are mechanical, a large enough
explosion will render them useless. Redundancy can only be carried to the
nth degree.

I'd venture to guess that when the real causes of the disaster have been
pinpointed, more redundancy and remedial actions will be taken. I'm
neither in favor nor totally against drilling, but this disaster shouldn't
happen again.

One good thing may be that in the armer Gulf more of the sticky and toxic
components will evaporate before getting into the ecosystems. (I can hope,
can't I?).

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Gordon Shumway wrote in
:

On Sun, 2 May 2010 16:20:13 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.

At least there is one small bright spot in this man made tragedy.

Lew


Not only are you a pathetic bigot you are a troll too.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

I'm with Lew. I think Obama and his administration were a tad late, but
have properly stated that BP will need to pay, and I hope that all damage
will fall under that.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 5/3/2010 6:42 AM, Han wrote:
"J. wrote in
:

Or maybe calmer heads will prevail and instead of looking for excuses to
create new boondoggles or axe the blameless, they'll figure out what
went wrong and fix the design of the BOP so that it doesn't happen again.

I'm a cynic. As long as the BOP gadgets are mechanical, a large enough
explosion will render them useless. Redundancy can only be carried to the
nth degree.

Bingo. There is no machine that cannot be broken. Never has been and
never will be.

But what went bust this time can be allowed for in future designs.
Which means that next time it will go bust in some other way.

I'd venture to guess that when the real causes of the disaster have been
pinpointed, more redundancy and remedial actions will be taken. I'm
neither in favor nor totally against drilling, but this disaster shouldn't
happen again.

Not sure how you can do redundancy though--have two BOPs stacked? Bring
a second manufacturer into the game so that they are completely
different designs with different points of failure? What will happen
then is that one will break in an unanticipated way that blocks the
operation of the other.

And then there's the possibility of deliberate sabotage.

One good thing may be that in the armer Gulf more of the sticky and toxic
components will evaporate before getting into the ecosystems. (I can hope,
can't I?).

Nahh, when the volatiles evaporate, that's when the sticky stuff gets
_real_ sticky. And if you've lived in that area you'll have experienced
slowly sinking into a paved road if you stand still too long.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

They can and do think of everything. Just as the Titanic is
unsinkable, every engineering possibility will be considered.

As long as humans engineer and build things, they will continue to
break.

Limited thinking.

The RMS Britannic, sister ship to the Titanic, struck a mine on 21 December
1916 and sank. There was NOTHING the Britannic's naval architects could have
done to prevent the perfidy of a hostile belligerent.

The BP platform fire and resulting oil spill could have been way beyond the
rig designer's portfolio.

For example, if a surfacing U.S. submarine could hit a Japanese yacht in the
middle of the Pacific (sinking the boat and killing all aboard), a
submarine - either U.S., another nation's, or a drug smuggler's - could have
collided with an oil platform in the considerably more crowded Gulf of
Mexico.

Bizarre? Sure. Improbable? To the extreme. But until we get more facts, it's
premature to conclude design oversight, mechanical failure, or human
incompetence.

Han wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

Or maybe calmer heads will prevail and instead of looking for
excuses to create new boondoggles or axe the blameless, they'll
figure out what went wrong and fix the design of the BOP so that it
doesn't happen again.

I'm a cynic. As long as the BOP gadgets are mechanical, a large
enough explosion will render them useless. Redundancy can only be
carried to the nth degree.


The explosion was a mile away from the BOP.

Han wrote:

I'm with Lew. I think Obama and his administration were a tad late,
but have properly stated that BP will need to pay, and I hope that
all damage will fall under that.

The administration was a tad late, but WAY early to blame BP.

BP is probably the culprit here, but it's far to early to assign blame. For
all we know, a Taliban militant could have set the rig on fire.

I look hard at the first crewman in a life boat.

Matt wrote:
I recall reading in early news articles of this incident, that BP had
considered an event of this scale and nature in their risk analysis to
create a response plan, but discarded it as they considered it extremely
unlikely to occur - their high priced talent crossed it off the list of
possible occurrences.

Last I heard no one has figured out what "it" is, so how could they
cross "it" off their list?

When a company puts an oil rig in place to exercise its American rights
license, do they file a disaster / reaction plan with some US Agency ?
And if so, does that Agency review the plan and respond with an acceptance
or denial of permission to proceed with drilling?

Who gives a damn? The people that know best how to prevent disaster is
the people doing the drilling.

Now for my cynical thoughts on this ...
If there is, does said Agency have any authority or is toothless
administrative appendage?

If there is no Agency, look at the opportunity to create new employment !
If there is such an Agency, maybe there will be some restructuring happening
soon, with some replacement hirings.

The only "agency" that really cares is the accounting office of the oil
company involved. Are you thinking some corrupt government official
actually cares or a bunch of government gobbledygook red tape is more
meaningful than a few 100 billion going up in smoke?

--
Jack
News Flash: Government Motors (GM) fines their top competitor $16 Mil.
http://jbstein.com

Han wrote:

I'm with Lew. I think Obama and his administration were a tad late, but
have properly stated that BP will need to pay, and I hope that all damage
will fall under that.

Yeah BP will pay, but guess where they get all their money?

--
Jack
Obama Ca Efficiency of the DMV, compassion of the IRS!
http://jbstein.com

wrote:

Who gives a damn? The people that know best how to prevent disaster is
the people doing the drilling.

But their plans will be dictated first and foremost by PROFIT MOTIVES,

Yes! Profit motives are a much better incentive to get things right than
graft and corruption of politicians.

not what is absolutely safest or best practice. The head engineer is
guided by "how will this look to stockholders on our bottom line THIS
WEEK.

Yeah, wonder how losing 100's of billions, and possibly the whole
company looks on their bottom line?

It is already known that additional capabilities for remote shutoff
which have been used on some wells, were not on this well due to the
extra cost.

Nothing of interest is "already" known, at least nothing reported to the
likes of us...

--
Jack
Mr. Geithner, May I Borrow Your TurboTax?
http://jbstein.com

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2010 6:42 AM, Han wrote:
"J. wrote in
:

Or maybe calmer heads will prevail and instead of looking for excuses to
create new boondoggles or axe the blameless, they'll figure out what
went wrong and fix the design of the BOP so that it doesn't happen
again.

I'm a cynic. As long as the BOP gadgets are mechanical, a large enough
explosion will render them useless. Redundancy can only be carried to
the
nth degree.

Bingo. There is no machine that cannot be broken. Never has been and
never will be.

But what went bust this time can be allowed for in future designs. Which
means that next time it will go bust in some other way.

I'd venture to guess that when the real causes of the disaster have been
pinpointed, more redundancy and remedial actions will be taken. I'm
neither in favor nor totally against drilling, but this disaster
shouldn't
happen again.

Not sure how you can do redundancy though--have two BOPs stacked? Bring a
second manufacturer into the game so that they are completely different
designs with different points of failure? What will happen then is that
one will break in an unanticipated way that blocks the operation of the
other.

And then there's the possibility of deliberate sabotage.

One good thing may be that in the armer Gulf more of the sticky and toxic
components will evaporate before getting into the ecosystems. (I can
hope,
can't I?).

Nahh, when the volatiles evaporate, that's when the sticky stuff gets
_real_ sticky. And if you've lived in that area you'll have experienced
slowly sinking into a paved road if you stand still too long.




When Drake sailed up the west coast, he reputedly mentioned an oil slick
more than a hundred miles long off what is now Santa Barbara. Nature will do
quite well on its own:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/1...ez-oil-spills/

On Mon, 03 May 2010 08:16:33 -0400, the infamous Jack Stein
scrawled the following:

Han wrote:

I'm with Lew. I think Obama and his administration were a tad late, but
have properly stated that BP will need to pay, and I hope that all damage
will fall under that.

Yeah BP will pay, but guess where they get all their money?

Yet another Obama Bailout, i.e. our pockets, right?

--
Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-- Raymond Lindquist

On May 3, 10:02*am, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 03 May 2010 08:16:33 -0400, the infamous Jack Stein
scrawled the following:

Han wrote:

I'm with Lew. *I think Obama and his administration were a tad late, but
have properly stated that BP will need to pay, and I hope that all damage
will fall under that.

Yeah BP will pay, but guess where they get all their money?

Yet another Obama Bailout, i.e. our pockets, right?

Depends on how much money BP gives the Demonicrats this year.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.

At least there is one small bright spot in this man made tragedy.

Lew

Wait until the price of gas starts to climb again.

On 05/03/2010 05:26 AM, HeyBub wrote:

The BP platform fire and resulting oil spill could have been way beyond the
rig designer's portfolio.

For example, if a surfacing U.S. submarine could hit a Japanese yacht in the
middle of the Pacific (sinking the boat and killing all aboard), a
submarine - either U.S., another nation's, or a drug smuggler's - could have
collided with an oil platform in the considerably more crowded Gulf of
Mexico.

Arguably, the blowout preventer should have been able to survive the
loss of the rig.

Unless the blowout preventer itself was blown up by a bomb, it should
have been designed to fail safe.

Chris

On 05/03/2010 05:30 AM, HeyBub wrote:

BP is probably the culprit here, but it's far to early to assign blame. For
all we know, a Taliban militant could have set the rig on fire.

Conceivable, but that's no excuse for the blowout preventer to fail.

Chris

On 5/3/2010 12:55 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:

Arguably, the blowout preventer should have been able to survive the
loss of the rig.

Unless the blowout preventer itself was blown up by a bomb, it should
have been designed to fail safe.

"When a failsafe system fails, it fails by failing to fail safe."

from "Systemantics" by John Gall

see #27 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On 05/03/2010 12:39 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 5/3/2010 12:55 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:

Unless the blowout preventer itself was blown up by a bomb, it should
have been designed to fail safe.

"When a failsafe system fails, it fails by failing to fail safe."

True enough...but I still think it should have been able to handle the
loss of the rig above.

Chris

On 5/3/2010 1:56 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 05/03/2010 05:30 AM, HeyBub wrote:

BP is probably the culprit here, but it's far to early to assign blame. For
all we know, a Taliban militant could have set the rig on fire.

Conceivable, but that's no excuse for the blowout preventer to fail.

For all we know he could have dropped a hundred pounds of C4 down the
pipe while he was about it.

On 5/3/2010 3:14 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 05/03/2010 12:39 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 5/3/2010 12:55 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:

Unless the blowout preventer itself was blown up by a bomb, it should
have been designed to fail safe.

"When a failsafe system fails, it fails by failing to fail safe."

True enough...but I still think it should have been able to handle the
loss of the rig above.

What makes you think it wasn't designed to do so? The point you seem to
be missing is that the blowout preventer did not work the way it was
supposed to work, and while one can speculate forever about the reason,
we won't _know_ the reason until they get the well closed off and
recover the non-functional preventer.

Chris Friesen wrote:
On 05/03/2010 12:39 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 5/3/2010 12:55 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:

Unless the blowout preventer itself was blown up by a bomb, it
should have been designed to fail safe.

"When a failsafe system fails, it fails by failing to fail safe."

True enough...but I still think it should have been able to handle the
loss of the rig above.


Perhaps the BOP was not "self aware" and depended upon instructions from the
surface?

If so, maybe the instructions never got to the BOP.

wrote:
On Mon, 03 May 2010 15:23:48 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 5/3/2010 1:56 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 05/03/2010 05:30 AM, HeyBub wrote:

BP is probably the culprit here, but it's far to early to assign
blame. For all we know, a Taliban militant could have set the rig
on fire.

Conceivable, but that's no excuse for the blowout preventer to fail.

For all we know he could have dropped a hundred pounds of C4 down the
pipe while he was about it.


Pretty hard to drop anything "down the pipe" with all that oil coming
up under considerable pressure.

And planting explosives at 5000 foot depth? Without a support ship on
the surface for the robotic sub? Yeah, that's likely, too!

Bwhahahahaha!

A hack-saw could have easily cut the communication wires to the BOP. I don't
think BOPs are autonomous devices (like a sprinkler system). How could a BOP
know the rig above it has caught fire or been blown away?

Bwhahahahaha!

DGDevin wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

The silence if deafening from the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.

At least there is one small bright spot in this man made tragedy.

Lew

Wait until the price of gas starts to climb again.

Some (the environmentalists) would say that IS the bright spot. Different
strokes... and all that.

On 5/03/10 4:07 PM, HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 03 May 2010 15:23:48 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 5/3/2010 1:56 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 05/03/2010 05:30 AM, HeyBub wrote:

BP is probably the culprit here, but it's far to early to assign
blame. For all we know, a Taliban militant could have set the rig
on fire.

Conceivable, but that's no excuse for the blowout preventer to fail.

For all we know he could have dropped a hundred pounds of C4 down the
pipe while he was about it.


Pretty hard to drop anything "down the pipe" with all that oil coming
up under considerable pressure.

And planting explosives at 5000 foot depth? Without a support ship on
the surface for the robotic sub? Yeah, that's likely, too!

Bwhahahahaha!

A hack-saw could have easily cut the communication wires to the BOP. I don't
think BOPs are autonomous devices (like a sprinkler system). How could a BOP
know the rig above it has caught fire or been blown away?

Bwhahahahaha!


Less pressure or increased flow come to mind.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 05/03/2010 02:07 PM, HeyBub wrote:

A hack-saw could have easily cut the communication wires to the BOP. I don't
think BOPs are autonomous devices (like a sprinkler system). How could a BOP
know the rig above it has caught fire or been blown away?

Umm....a BOP is a failsafe device. If it loses communications with the
rig above it should close the pipe. Basic deadman switch.

Chris

On 05/03/2010 02:03 PM, HeyBub wrote:

Perhaps the BOP was not "self aware" and depended upon instructions from the
surface?

If so, maybe the instructions never got to the BOP.

Conceivable, but that would be a pretty crappy design for a failsafe.
It should have a deadman switch such that if it gets no handshake from
the surface it shuts the valve.

Chris

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
el...
On 05/03/2010 02:07 PM, HeyBub wrote:

A hack-saw could have easily cut the communication wires to the BOP. I
don't
think BOPs are autonomous devices (like a sprinkler system). How could a
BOP
know the rig above it has caught fire or been blown away?

Umm....a BOP is a failsafe device. If it loses communications with the
rig above it should close the pipe. Basic deadman switch.

Chris

Key word - - - - "should"

"Chris Friesen" wrote

Conceivable, but that would be a pretty crappy design for a failsafe.
It should have a deadman switch such that if it gets no handshake from
the surface it shuts the valve.

Chris

Probably did, but that does not mean it will work. Watch "Seconds from
Disaster" on the Nat Geo channel and they will give you examples of how fail
safe situations can fail.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Wait until the price of gas starts to climb again.

Some (the environmentalists) would say that IS the bright spot. Different
strokes... and all that.

I know people who believe higher gasoline prices are a good thing as they
motivate folks to get rid of their gas-guzzling vehicles and buy something
more efficient. There is something to that argument--if heating and cooling
our houses was free, who would put in more insulation?

Politics aside, higher gas prices are only a matter of time. As China and
India demand more gas and as remaining untapped reserves are located in more
and more difficult places to reach, the inevitable result will be higher
prices.

My folks lived through the Great Depression, and I inherited the attitude
that you scrape the peanut butter jar clean, not because you can't afford
another one but just because waste is a bad idea. So when I see a lone
driver using an Escalade or Suburban to go pick up a carton of milk it makes
me shake my head. And then there is the issue of why every year we send
umpteen gazillion dollars to countries with governments that don't like us
too much. Why are we paying oil money to Hugo Chavez to buy Russki fighter
jets, or for the Saudis to fund fundamentalist jihadi preachers? Surely
burning a dirty, increasingly expensive fuel that enriches hostile regimes
is not a smart long-term policy, is it?

On 5/3/2010 12:30 PM, DGDevin wrote:

Wait until the price of gas starts to climb again.

It probably will, and the prices of NG and diesel will rise
proportionately - not a good thing for folks wanting to keep warm in the
wintertime...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On May 3, 6:50*pm, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 5/3/2010 12:30 PM, DGDevin wrote:

Wait until the price of gas starts to climb again.

It probably will, and the prices of NG and diesel will rise
proportionately - not a good thing for folks wanting to keep warm in the
wintertime...


Now why would that interest you?
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
;-)

On 2010-05-03 16:03:40 -0400, "HeyBub" said:

Perhaps the BOP was not "self aware" and depended upon instructions
from the surface?

If so, maybe the instructions never got to the BOP.

One report I heard today is that the function of the BOP -- which
staunchs the flow by crushing the pipe -- was blocked by drill pieces
inside the pipe.