I'm getting ready to make some pilasters for the fence. Going to use
cedar S1S2E and the grade includes some knots. Acrylic paint finish.

I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.

Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a
solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.

Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz
product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.

TIA



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
I'm getting ready to make some pilasters for the fence. Going to use
cedar S1S2E and the grade includes some knots. Acrylic paint finish.

I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.

Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a
solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.

Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz
product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.



Dunno how well it works on knots, but it sucks as far as the airless
sprayer is concerned (at least my Wagner) - the piston would jam up after
only a few seconds of operation (I assume from the silica in the paint) - I
switched to a different primer and the job went just fine.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Tom Watson wrote:

I'm getting ready to make some pilasters for the fence. Going to use
cedar S1S2E and the grade includes some knots. Acrylic paint finish.

I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.

Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a
solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.

Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz
product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.

TIA



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
I tend to stick with oil base primers. You can use it but you will have to
water it down to get it through a airless which could make it about
useless.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:01:53 -0700, evodawg wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:


I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.


I tend to stick with oil base primers. You can use it but you will have
to water it down to get it through a airless which could make it about
useless.

Kilz isn't oil base. It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol based.





--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:
....
Kilz isn't oil base. It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol based.


Might want to let them know about that...

"KILZ® Original

KILZ Original, interior oil-base formula, is Americas number one
selling stainblocking primer/sealer that tackles the toughest stains.

Originally developed to replace pigmented shellac sealers,..."

http://www.kilz.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID=23

"KILZ® Exterior

KILZ Exterior is a fast drying sealer-primer-stainblocker that was
developed to block stains on exterior surfaces including brick, painted
metal, wood, aged masonry and stucco. Its effective oil-base
stainblocking formula..."

Even the Low-VOC non-latex by the MSDS is petroleum distillates/kerosine
[sic]. Didn't see a single shellac-based primer.

--

On Jul 11, 4:04 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.

Tom: ready for another long explanation? *chuckle*

Only because I know you actually read folks responses.

Water based KILZ is a good choice for this. It will hold back a lot
of bleed through color, but my personal experience has been that cedar
may still "amber" a bit if it wants.

I get around this by choosing a color that will accept the amber
without changing the appearance color to drastically. I am not
suggesting to paint the wood red or green. For example, instead of
painting the wood bright white, choose something with a little tan in
it like a dark ivory. Everyone that doesn't see the can will think it
is plain white, regardless of the actual color. And on a sunny day...
no one will notice.

Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a
solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.

My attempts to spray water based KILZ through my sprayer have ended in
tragedy. After a call or two to KILZ folks, tech support told me "it
wasn't the best spraying material" and told me I would be better off
with their The zinc oxide used as a stain blocker in KILZ is actually
ground much less fine than the ZO or ceramics used as blockers and
solids in paint.

You gun and equipment will not like the WB KILZ at all and you will
have clogs, desegregation of solids (DAMHIKT), much too rapid drying
and terrible spraying characteristics.

"A friend of mine" just had to try it in his gun and almost never got
it all out.

Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz
product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.

It hasn't been 100%, but good. My experience has been on (painted)
fence repair and cedar deck.

So, just a couple of suggestions from the gallery.

IF I am to use WB KILZ, I apply it with brush and roller. First, I
caulk in even the tiniest of cracks with good acrylic caulk. On the
bigger knots, I even skim a super thin coat of cauIk across the knot
with my finger, making sure I leave the original appearance of the
knot behind. The caulk works much better than the KILZ at blocking
the color seepage, but has the benefit of holding the knot in place as
well when the wood begins to shrink.

I spot all the knots with a slather of material applied with a cheap
brush. If I see them bleed through in an hour or so, I hit them
again.

I use a 6" or 8" "weenie" roller in a throw away tray and roll the
surfaces with the material leaving a really thick coat behind. Any
featured profiles that cannot be rolled get the brush. I try to leave
behind a dry coat of 3 - 5 mil (or better) when finished on all
surfaces.

I use the same basic technique when using regular KILZ, too. If you
are doing a dozen pilasters or so, you will probably be well ahead of
the game time-wise by not setting up a spray area, prepping the
product, and not cleaning up your equipment when finished. When I am
finished, I may or may not keep the brush, but the rollers and pans go
in the trash.

I have changed my preference in primers and stain blocker to the
Zinnser line. I can spot coat knots with the WB stuff, then come back
and shoot their BIN from my compressor powered cup gun. BIN is
shellac based with some pigment, but my cup gun shoots it out like
glass, unthinned with a 1.4 mm tip. My primer gun is a cheapie low
air consumption 20 oz gravity feed from HF that works like a champ.
The BIN cleans up easily very from the gun and equipment with
anhydrous alcohol.

If you have some of the newer growth cedar that is extremely porous, I
would suggest you look at the Sherwyn Williams Pro Block exterior
rated line. It is roll and brush only, but when I thinned it to see
how much solid material was in it (I used it to seal oak cabinets in a
kitchen and it filled most of the woodgrain!) there was so much solid
material in it it actually dried to a crust in the bottom of my test
jar.

I use the same brush and roll method I described for WB KILZ when
applying, but like the results of the SW product much better for its
filling effect. It seems (no empirical evidence) to adhere better
than the KILZ products, too.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/...tion-guide.pdf

Robert

On Jul 12, 11:15*am, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Kilz isn't oil base. *It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol based.

Not so. Old fashioned KILZ cleans up with mineral spirits.

Additionally, reading TW's post will reveal he asked SPECIFICALLY
about their water based product:

http://www.kilz.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID=28

It's available at big boxes everywhere.

Robert

Larry Blanchard wrote:

Kilz isn't oil base. It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol based.

Actually, Kilz has a few different formulations...water, oil, *and* shellac.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:
Larry Blanchard wrote:

Kilz isn't oil base. It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol
based.

Actually, Kilz has a few different formulations...water, oil, *and*
shellac.

Find a statement by the manufacturer that _any_ formulation of Kilz is
shellac-based.

I suspect that you are confusing Kilz, an oil- or latex- based product of
Masterchem Industries, with B-I-N, a shellac-based product of
Rust-Oleum/Zinsser Group.

Thank you, Robert, for the detailed and thoughtful reply. This is
just the kind of insider response that I was looking for.

The fact that the Kilz water based doesn't spray well is the deal
killer for me. I'd already made up my mind to only use the WB if it
could be sprayed and if it was effective.

Since it looks like I have to go to a solvent based product, I'll
probably apply with a roller and back drag with a brush.

Thanks for helping me come to the decision.



Regards,


Tom



On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 11, 4:04 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.

Tom: ready for another long explanation? *chuckle*

Only because I know you actually read folks responses.

Water based KILZ is a good choice for this. It will hold back a lot
of bleed through color, but my personal experience has been that cedar
may still "amber" a bit if it wants.

I get around this by choosing a color that will accept the amber
without changing the appearance color to drastically. I am not
suggesting to paint the wood red or green. For example, instead of
painting the wood bright white, choose something with a little tan in
it like a dark ivory. Everyone that doesn't see the can will think it
is plain white, regardless of the actual color. And on a sunny day...
no one will notice.

Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a
solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.

My attempts to spray water based KILZ through my sprayer have ended in
tragedy. After a call or two to KILZ folks, tech support told me "it
wasn't the best spraying material" and told me I would be better off
with their The zinc oxide used as a stain blocker in KILZ is actually
ground much less fine than the ZO or ceramics used as blockers and
solids in paint.

You gun and equipment will not like the WB KILZ at all and you will
have clogs, desegregation of solids (DAMHIKT), much too rapid drying
and terrible spraying characteristics.

"A friend of mine" just had to try it in his gun and almost never got
it all out.

Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz
product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.

It hasn't been 100%, but good. My experience has been on (painted)
fence repair and cedar deck.

So, just a couple of suggestions from the gallery.

IF I am to use WB KILZ, I apply it with brush and roller. First, I
caulk in even the tiniest of cracks with good acrylic caulk. On the
bigger knots, I even skim a super thin coat of cauIk across the knot
with my finger, making sure I leave the original appearance of the
knot behind. The caulk works much better than the KILZ at blocking
the color seepage, but has the benefit of holding the knot in place as
well when the wood begins to shrink.

I spot all the knots with a slather of material applied with a cheap
brush. If I see them bleed through in an hour or so, I hit them
again.

I use a 6" or 8" "weenie" roller in a throw away tray and roll the
surfaces with the material leaving a really thick coat behind. Any
featured profiles that cannot be rolled get the brush. I try to leave
behind a dry coat of 3 - 5 mil (or better) when finished on all
surfaces.

I use the same basic technique when using regular KILZ, too. If you
are doing a dozen pilasters or so, you will probably be well ahead of
the game time-wise by not setting up a spray area, prepping the
product, and not cleaning up your equipment when finished. When I am
finished, I may or may not keep the brush, but the rollers and pans go
in the trash.

I have changed my preference in primers and stain blocker to the
Zinnser line. I can spot coat knots with the WB stuff, then come back
and shoot their BIN from my compressor powered cup gun. BIN is
shellac based with some pigment, but my cup gun shoots it out like
glass, unthinned with a 1.4 mm tip. My primer gun is a cheapie low
air consumption 20 oz gravity feed from HF that works like a champ.
The BIN cleans up easily very from the gun and equipment with
anhydrous alcohol.

If you have some of the newer growth cedar that is extremely porous, I
would suggest you look at the Sherwyn Williams Pro Block exterior
rated line. It is roll and brush only, but when I thinned it to see
how much solid material was in it (I used it to seal oak cabinets in a
kitchen and it filled most of the woodgrain!) there was so much solid
material in it it actually dried to a crust in the bottom of my test
jar.

I use the same brush and roll method I described for WB KILZ when
applying, but like the results of the SW product much better for its
filling effect. It seems (no empirical evidence) to adhere better
than the KILZ products, too.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/...tion-guide.pdf

Robert
Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

J. Clarke wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:
Larry Blanchard wrote:

Kilz isn't oil base. It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol
based.
Actually, Kilz has a few different formulations...water, oil, *and*
shellac.

Find a statement by the manufacturer that _any_ formulation of Kilz is
shellac-based.

I suspect that you are confusing Kilz, an oil- or latex- based product of
Masterchem Industries, with B-I-N, a shellac-based product of
Rust-Oleum/Zinsser Group.

Yep...I realized that shortly after posting.

Chris

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:06:36 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote:

I suspect that you are confusing Kilz, an oil- or latex- based product
of Masterchem Industries, with B-I-N, a shellac-based product of
Rust-Oleum/Zinsser Group.

Yep...I realized that shortly after posting.

My mistake as well - sorry.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:06:36 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote:

I suspect that you are confusing Kilz, an oil- or latex- based
product of Masterchem Industries, with B-I-N, a shellac-based
product of Rust-Oleum/Zinsser Group.

Yep...I realized that shortly after posting.

My mistake as well - sorry.

I've made the same mistake myself. Wasn't until I bought a gallon of Kilz
and got it home and read the label and had to take it back that I finally
got it fixed in my mind that Kilz was oil based and B-I-N was shellac based.

Tom Watson | 2009-07-13 | 9:27:23 AM wrote:

The fact that the Kilz water based doesn't spray well is the deal
killer for me. I'd already made up my mind to only use the WB if it
could be sprayed and if it was effective.

Since it looks like I have to go to a solvent based product, I'll
probably apply with a roller and back drag with a brush.

If you're going to brush it anyway, you might as well brush on the
water-based Kilz. It dries in an hour or two, and a quick pass with a
sander makes a really smooth surface for the finish paint.

Suggestion: Add some Floetrol to your finish paint. You can get a
spray-quality finish with a brush. Just watch out for sags.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



I have changed my preference in primers and stain blocker to the
Zinnser line. I can spot coat knots with the WB stuff, then come back
and shoot their BIN from my compressor powered cup gun. BIN is
shellac based with some pigment, but my cup gun shoots it out like
glass, unthinned with a 1.4 mm tip. My primer gun is a cheapie low
air consumption 20 oz gravity feed from HF that works like a champ.
The BIN cleans up easily very from the gun and equipment with
anhydrous alcohol.

If you have some of the newer growth cedar that is extremely porous, I
would suggest you look at the Sherwyn Williams Pro Block exterior
rated line. It is roll and brush only, but when I thinned it to see
how much solid material was in it (I used it to seal oak cabinets in a
kitchen and it filled most of the woodgrain!) there was so much solid
material in it it actually dried to a crust in the bottom of my test
jar.

I use the same brush and roll method I described for WB KILZ when
applying, but like the results of the SW product much better for its
filling effect. It seems (no empirical evidence) to adhere better
than the KILZ products, too.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/...tion-guide.pdf

Robert


I decided to follow your lead and try out the Zinsser products. I'm
using the B-I-N Shellac-Base Primer-Sealer-Stain Killer from a shaker
can to spot prime the knots. Going over that with their Cover Stain
High Hide Oil-Based Primer-Sealer-Stain Killer applied with a roller
and back dragged. Their tech sheets seem to show that this
combination has the best shot at holding back the knots and the tannin
but we'll see. I'm only doing two pilasters for now and I'll get to
look at them sit out in the weather for a week or so before I do the
other 16 pieces.

These pieces are probably going to be blue - at least these
experimental pieces will start out blue and where they wind up depends
on management (wife) not labor (me).

Thanks again, Robert.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Jul 16, 11:36*am, Tom Watson wrote:

Thanks again, Robert.

My pleasure. Glad to be of help.

Robert

wrote in message
...

On Jul 11, 4:04 pm, Tom Watson wrote:

I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to
hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.

Tom: ready for another long explanation? *chuckle*

Only because I know you actually read folks responses.

Water based KILZ is a good choice for this. It will hold back a lot
of bleed through color, but my personal experience has been that cedar
may still "amber" a bit if it wants.


This true to a degree. But some time it's not going to cover and seal a
solvent based product is a better choice, Oil is good but shellac is better.




I get around this by choosing a color that will accept the amber
without changing the appearance color too drastically. I am not
suggesting to paint the wood red or green. For example, instead of
painting the wood bright white, choose something with a little tan in
it like a dark ivory. Everyone that doesn't see the can will think it
is plain white, regardless of the actual color. And on a sunny day...
no one will notice.



This is stupid. If your finish is still yellowing your system isn't working.
Try some thing else.


Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a
solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.



My attempts to spray water based KILZ through my sprayer have ended in
tragedy. After a call or two to KILZ folks, tech support told me "it
wasn't the best spraying material" and told me I would be better off
with their The zinc oxide used as a stain blocker in KILZ is actually
ground much less fine than the ZO or ceramics used as blockers and
solids in paint.



This is nonsense an airless sprayer should have no problem running WB though
it if it pressurizes to 2500 psi or better and the right tip is in it should
not be a problem. It may not atomize as fine as say a fine finish lacquer
but it will atomize. Kilz does not contain zinc in it its main pigment is
titanium dioxide from 5 to over 30 percent by volume, and weather it's Ti or
Zo has no bearing on atomizing the material unless it's the size of pea
rock. Look at these mdsd's and see for your self no zinc and sure as **** no
ceramic



http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/Au...535FAF52C3C23D



http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/Au...535FAF52C3C23D





http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/Au...535FAF52C3C23D



http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/Au...535FAF52C3C23D





http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/Au...535FAF52C3C23D









You gun and equipment will not like the WB KILZ at all and you will
have clogs, desegregation of solids (DAMHIKT), much too rapid drying
and terrible spraying characteristics.



If you have clogs your filtering isn't working correctly. You should filter
it though a bag type filter and your filter in the gun and machine should be
in place and clean and have no holes in them either.

Desegregation of solids?????????? This means that your solids won't be
segregated, this is more nonsense, solids in coatings don't segregate your
vehicle will separate but not the solids, try mixing your material if this
happens.

Rapid drying this is a characteristic of fast dry primers; it dries fast
but not the fast. And if you're spraying this is not a problem especially
with airless.
Terrible spraying characteristics may be bad spaying technique on part of
the operator.



"A friend of mine" just had to try it in his gun and almost never got
it all out.

Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz
product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.

It hasn't been 100%, but good. My experience has been on (painted)
fence repair and cedar deck.

So, just a couple of suggestions from the gallery.

IF I am to use WB KILZ, I apply it with brush and roller.



This is true brush and roller is the best way to apply primer to cedar
especially rough sawn it gets the primer into all the nooks and crannies and
seals it from water intrusion.



First, I
caulk in even the tiniest of cracks with good acrylic caulk. On the
bigger knots, I even skim a super thin coat of cauIk across the knot
with my finger, making sure I leave the original appearance of the
knot behind. The caulk works much better than the KILZ at blocking
the color seepage, but has the benefit of holding the knot in place as
well when the wood begins to shrink.



I don't agree with this. Prime first, and then caulk and the reason is the
dry wood will suck the vehicle out too fast and affect adhesion, also the
oils in the cedar will also affect the adhesion. Seal it, then caulk. As far
as hold out on the knots this is true but it will leave a patched look on
the knot weather it's under or over the primer and how much caulk you use.
Half a dozen of one six of the other.




I spot all the knots with a slather of material applied with a cheap
brush. If I see them bleed through in an hour or so, I hit them
again.

I use a 6" or 8" "weenie" roller in a throw away tray and roll the
surfaces with the material leaving a really thick coat behind. Any
featured profiles that cannot be rolled get the brush. I try to leave
behind a dry coat of 3 - 5 mil (or better) when finished on all
surfaces.

I use the same basic technique when using regular KILZ, too. If you
are doing a dozen pilasters or so, you will probably be well ahead of
the game time-wise by not setting up a spray area, prepping the
product, and not cleaning up your equipment when finished. When I am
finished, I may or may not keep the brush, but the rollers and pans go
in the trash.

I have changed my preference in primers and stain blocker to the
Zinnser line. I can spot coat knots with the WB stuff, then come back
and shoot their BIN from my compressor powered cup gun. BIN is
shellac based with some pigment, but my cup gun shoots it out like
glass, unthinned with a 1.4 mm tip. My primer gun is a cheapie low
air consumption 20 oz gravity feed from HF that works like a champ.
The BIN cleans up easily very from the gun and equipment with
anhydrous alcohol.



I too like Zinsser products better they also have oil and latex base as well
as shellac. What is anhydrous alcohol you mean denatured don't you?



If you have some of the newer growth cedar that is extremely porous, I
would suggest you look at the Sherwyn Williams Pro Block exterior
rated line. It is roll and brush only, but when I thinned it to see
how much solid material was in it (I used it to seal oak cabinets in a
kitchen and it filled most of the woodgrain!) there was so much solid
material in it it actually dried to a crust in the bottom of my test
jar.



Pro block is also a good product it's a shame I hate SWP.

I use the same brush and roll method I described for WB KILZ when
applying, but like the results of the SW product much better for its
filling effect. It seems (no empirical evidence) to adhere better
than the KILZ products, too.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/...tion-guide.pdf

Robert