I have not been able to start a Griz 1023 saw that I recently bought
used (and yes, it ran in the garage of the guy I purchased it from).
I moved it on a trailer about 30 miles, so it's possible that the
starter could be damaged if they are delicate. I have no experience
with these magnetic starters.

I detect current at the switch. I checked all the wiring connections
to the motor and blew/vac'd out the extra dust. Everything 'seems' ok
there.

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. �I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff

More details needed. What voltage are you using and what voltage is
the saw setup for? Are you positive of the connections where the saw
is connected to? Is there any action at the saw starter, switch or
motor? Any smoke? A lot of saws are in everyday use and not
connected properly, having been cheated to make them go and never
correctly connected.

If nothing happened on the way home the likely problem is the hookup.
If something did happen the likely problems are almost unlimited. What
I do in this case is to take it all apart, the electrical that is, and
start again.

A shot in the dark is the capacitor switch in the motor but if it was
that the motor would probably hum or smoke.

So more details please.

Bob AZ

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:58:28 -0700 (PDT), JJ
wrote:

I detect current at the switch. I checked all the wiring connections
to the motor and blew/vac'd out the extra dust. Everything 'seems' ok
there.

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.


If you've got voltage into the switch, and no voltage out of the
switch then something in the switch is defective. You'll have to open
the switch to determine whether the problem is in the switch(s) that
feeds the contactor coil or in the contactor/relay itself.

If you have the proper voltage out of the switch, and the connections
to the switch and the motor are good, you should have the proper
voltage at the input to the motor. If not, the problem is in the
wiring between the switch and the motor.

If you have the proper voltage at the motor, and the motor gives no
indication of getting power; tries to turn over, hums, etc., then the
problem is in the motor. Look for a reset button on the motor case
somewhere. If the magnetic switch is just that, a magnetic switch
instead of a starter that contains an overload/overtemp breaker, the
motor should have its own internal overtemp protection. There should
be some notation to that effect on the motor dataplate. It could be
shown as either auto or manual. If manual there will be a reset button
somewhere on the motor. If auto, it should reset itself after the
motor has cooled.

If the motor does give some indication of receiving power but won't
start and come up to speed, the problem could be nothing more than a
bad capacitor in the motor. Not likely because if that were the case,
you'd probably be blowing a circuit breaker.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Sep 9, 1:31 am, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:58:28 -0700 (PDT), JJ
wrote:

I detect current at the switch. I checked all the wiring connections
to the motor and blew/vac'd out the extra dust. Everything 'seems' ok
there.

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.

If you've got voltage into the switch, and no voltage out of the
switch then something in the switch is defective. You'll have to open
the switch to determine whether the problem is in the switch(s) that
feeds the contactor coil or in the contactor/relay itself.

If you have the proper voltage out of the switch, and the connections
to the switch and the motor are good, you should have the proper
voltage at the input to the motor. If not, the problem is in the
wiring between the switch and the motor.

If you have the proper voltage at the motor, and the motor gives no
indication of getting power; tries to turn over, hums, etc., then the
problem is in the motor. Look for a reset button on the motor case
somewhere. If the magnetic switch is just that, a magnetic switch
instead of a starter that contains an overload/overtemp breaker, the
motor should have its own internal overtemp protection. There should
be some notation to that effect on the motor dataplate. It could be
shown as either auto or manual. If manual there will be a reset button
somewhere on the motor. If auto, it should reset itself after the
motor has cooled.

If the motor does give some indication of receiving power but won't
start and come up to speed, the problem could be nothing more than a
bad capacitor in the motor. Not likely because if that were the case,
you'd probably be blowing a circuit breaker.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Thanks for all the info. I will check it out tonight after I struggle
through another six hours at my day job. Haha.

I know that I do have the proper voltage to the switch. So I'll do
the checking past that to the motor. There is absolutely no
indication from the motor that it receives power though. I will post
another note when I find out more information.

Jeff

Since you said "---detect current at the switch---", I will assume that
you are somewhat light on "electricity". Detecting CURRENT would mean
that electricity is flowing in the circuit and so something would be
turning, humming or smoking. Since this is not the case, you probably
meant that you detected VOLTAGE somewhere along the line.
So, to help you get started troubleshooting this saw I recommend you
visit these sites:



JJ wrote:
I have not been able to start a Griz 1023 saw that I recently bought
used (and yes, it ran in the garage of the guy I purchased it from).
I moved it on a trailer about 30 miles, so it's possible that the
starter could be damaged if they are delicate. I have no experience
with these magnetic starters.

I detect current at the switch. I checked all the wiring connections
to the motor and blew/vac'd out the extra dust. Everything 'seems' ok
there.

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

Sorry, I pushed the wrong button!

Since you said "---detect current at the switch---", I will assume that
you are somewhat light on "electricity". Detecting CURRENT would mean
that electricity is flowing in the circuit and so something would be
turning, humming or smoking. Since this is not the case, you probably
meant that you detected VOLTAGE somewhere along the line.
So, to help you get started troubleshooting this saw I recommend you
visit these sites:

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-an-Ohmmeter
You will use an ohmmeter with the power disconnected. This is good for
personal safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_starter
You might try googling "Magnetic starter wiring" to find out more about
how they work.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------




JJ wrote:

I have not been able to start a Griz 1023 saw that I recently bought
used (and yes, it ran in the garage of the guy I purchased it from).
I moved it on a trailer about 30 miles, so it's possible that the
starter could be damaged if they are delicate. I have no experience
with these magnetic starters.

I detect current at the switch. I checked all the wiring connections
to the motor and blew/vac'd out the extra dust. Everything 'seems' ok
there.

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

JJ wrote:
....
I know that I do have the proper voltage to the switch. So I'll do
the checking past that to the motor.
....

Are you absolutely sure of that -- that is, are you sure your shop is on
same source voltage as the shop from which it came? (IE, I wouldn't
trust the cord plug as an indicator necessarily of 120V instead of 240V
as I've seen more than once the voltage on the motor be changed w/o
changing the plug on the pre-made cord).

Also, there are "heaters" (really fusible links) in the starter -- check
for continuity there--if there were a problem it's possible when you
first tried it they opened.

--

On Sep 9, 11:30 am, spaco wrote:
Sorry, I pushed the wrong button!

Since you said "---detect current at the switch---", I will assume that
you are somewhat light on "electricity". Detecting CURRENT would mean
that electricity is flowing in the circuit and so something would be
turning, humming or smoking. Since this is not the case, you probably
meant that you detected VOLTAGE somewhere along the line.
So, to help you get started troubleshooting this saw I recommend you
visit these sites:

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-an-Ohmmeter
You will use an ohmmeter with the power disconnected. This is good for
personal safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_starter
You might try googling "Magnetic starter wiring" to find out more about
how they work.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------

JJ wrote:
I have not been able to start a Griz 1023 saw that I recently bought
used (and yes, it ran in the garage of the guy I purchased it from).
I moved it on a trailer about 30 miles, so it's possible that the
starter could be damaged if they are delicate. I have no experience
with these magnetic starters.

I detect current at the switch. I checked all the wiring connections
to the motor and blew/vac'd out the extra dust. Everything 'seems' ok
there.

Is there a way to test the switch without taking it out and wiring it
to something else?

Any troubleshooting advice would be much appreciated. I don't want to
order a replacement starter if it isn't the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

Yes, voltage. Sorry, typing too fast. Thinking too little.

On Sep 9, 11:45 am, dpb wrote:
JJ wrote:

... I know that I do have the proper voltage to the switch. So I'll do
the checking past that to the motor.

...

Are you absolutely sure of that -- that is, are you sure your shop is on
same source voltage as the shop from which it came? (IE, I wouldn't
trust the cord plug as an indicator necessarily of 120V instead of 240V
as I've seen more than once the voltage on the motor be changed w/o
changing the plug on the pre-made cord).

Also, there are "heaters" (really fusible links) in the starter -- check
for continuity there--if there were a problem it's possible when you
first tried it they opened.

--

I guess I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'm pretty certain the saw
hasn't been rewired to run at 120V. All the wiring at the motor and
the starter looks to be 'stock' and unmodified.

I will check the heaters as well. Thanks.

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:58:28 -0700 (PDT), JJ
wrote:

I have not been able to start a Griz 1023 saw that I recently bought
used (and yes, it ran in the garage of the guy I purchased it from).
I moved it on a trailer about 30 miles, so it's possible that the
snip
Thanks,
Jeff


Hi Jeff,

I have a clone of this machine here is a link to a question my saw
wont start http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/art...SC-10HB.htm#Q2

hope it's same as your switch.

Rgds,
Phil.

On Sep 9, 12:02*pm, JJ wrote:
On Sep 9, 11:45 am, dpb wrote:





JJ wrote:

... I know that I do have the proper voltage to the switch. *So I'll do
the checking past that to the motor.

...

Are you absolutely sure of that -- that is, are you sure your shop is on
same source voltage as the shop from which it came? *(IE, I wouldn't
trust the cord plug as an indicator necessarily of 120V instead of 240V
as I've seen more than once the voltage on the motor be changed w/o
changing the plug on the pre-made cord).

Also, there are "heaters" (really fusible links) in the starter -- check
for continuity there--if there were a problem it's possible when you
first tried it they opened.

--

I guess I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'm pretty certain the saw
hasn't been rewired to run at 120V. *All the wiring at the motor and
the starter looks to be 'stock' and unmodified.

I will check the heaters as well. *Thanks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just wanted to verify that I'm testing for voltage downstream of the
switch correctly. If you look at page 53 in the current 1023 manual
(or 55 of 72 of the http://www.grizzly.com/images/manuals/g1023sl_m.pdf),
that echoes what my wiring looks like.

So the way I read that diagram and the way I see it wired, I should
only see voltage at the 1/2 and 5/6 leads on the Thermanl Overload
Relay WHEN I switch the saw on. Correct?

I confirmed that I do see voltage at L1/1 and L3/5 when I have the saw
plugged in.

So, if my assertion about the 1/2 and 5/6 TOR leads is correct, then
there is something definitely wrong with the starter, correct?

Thanks all,
Jeff

So the section that has the on button. On the top it should read 120
to ground or neutral. When you press the button post B of that switch
should go to 120.

When you state that you see voltage you are really stating nothing.
You could be reading 3 volts which is not going to get anything
running. You should say I read 240v between L1/1 and L3/5 and 120 v
between L1/1 and ground and 120v between L3/5 and ground. I read 120v
at the top of the On button and 120v at the bottom of the on button.
Just need to confirm actual voltage and not some glow light hinting
that it sees some voltage which may not be enough or proper wired. If
you have 120 and 240 then the contactor may have failed. Or maybe the
thermal overload failed.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT), JJ
wrote:

On Sep 9, 12:02*pm, JJ wrote:
On Sep 9, 11:45 am, dpb wrote:





JJ wrote:

... I know that I do have the proper voltage to the switch. *So I'll do
the checking past that to the motor.

...

Are you absolutely sure of that -- that is, are you sure your shop is on
same source voltage as the shop from which it came? *(IE, I wouldn't
trust the cord plug as an indicator necessarily of 120V instead of 240V
as I've seen more than once the voltage on the motor be changed w/o
changing the plug on the pre-made cord).

Also, there are "heaters" (really fusible links) in the starter -- check
for continuity there--if there were a problem it's possible when you
first tried it they opened.

--

I guess I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'm pretty certain the saw
hasn't been rewired to run at 120V. *All the wiring at the motor and
the starter looks to be 'stock' and unmodified.

I will check the heaters as well. *Thanks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just wanted to verify that I'm testing for voltage downstream of the
switch correctly. If you look at page 53 in the current 1023 manual
(or 55 of 72 of the http://www.grizzly.com/images/manuals/g1023sl_m.pdf),
that echoes what my wiring looks like.

So the way I read that diagram and the way I see it wired, I should
only see voltage at the 1/2 and 5/6 leads on the Thermanl Overload
Relay WHEN I switch the saw on. Correct?

I confirmed that I do see voltage at L1/1 and L3/5 when I have the saw
plugged in.

So, if my assertion about the 1/2 and 5/6 TOR leads is correct, then
there is something definitely wrong with the starter, correct?

Thanks all,
Jeff

I confirmed that I do see voltage at L1/1 and L3/5 when I have the saw
plugged in.

So, if my assertion about the 1/2 and 5/6 TOR leads is correct, then
there is something definitely wrong with the starter, correct?

Thanks all,
Jeff- Hide quoted text -

Jeff

So how much voltage do you see? From the electrical diagram and the
specifications you have a 220 motor, either single phase or 3 phase. A
three phase saw would have a 4 pin or blade connector. A quick and
easy check will be the number of wires in the motor terminal box. Also
the cable connector, the power connector will be at least three
connectors or blades.

Don't get hung up on the starter/relay being bad. Find out what is bad
and then worry about that part. Do you really have 220 or thereabouts
on the input? The cable plug should not be the conventional 110 volt,
3 blade with a ground type. If it is get this right first. Not later
when your estate is trying to sell the saw.

FWIW the book and electrical diagram is way better than most. You are
fortunate.

Bob AZ

On Sep 13, 3:48*pm, Jim Behning
wrote:
So the section that has the on button. On the top it should read 120
to ground or neutral. When you press the button post B of that switch
should go to 120.

When you state that you see voltage you are really stating nothing.
You could be reading 3 volts which is not going to get anything
running. *You should say I read 240v between L1/1 and L3/5 and 120 v
between L1/1 and ground and 120v between L3/5 and ground. I read 120v
at the top of the On button and 120v at the bottom of the on button.
Just need to confirm actual voltage and not some glow light hinting
that it sees some voltage which may not be enough or proper wired. If
you have 120 and 240 then the contactor may have failed. Or maybe the
thermal overload failed.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT), JJ
wrote:



On Sep 9, 12:02*pm, JJ wrote:
On Sep 9, 11:45 am, dpb wrote:

JJ wrote:

... I know that I do have the proper voltage to the switch. *So I'll do
the checking past that to the motor.

...

Are you absolutely sure of that -- that is, are you sure your shop is on
same source voltage as the shop from which it came? *(IE, I wouldn't
trust the cord plug as an indicator necessarily of 120V instead of 240V
as I've seen more than once the voltage on the motor be changed w/o
changing the plug on the pre-made cord).

Also, there are "heaters" (really fusible links) in the starter -- check
for continuity there--if there were a problem it's possible when you
first tried it they opened.

--

I guess I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'm pretty certain the saw
hasn't been rewired to run at 120V. *All the wiring at the motor and
the starter looks to be 'stock' and unmodified.

I will check the heaters as well. *Thanks.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just wanted to verify that I'm testing for voltage downstream of the
switch correctly. *If you look at page 53 in the current 1023 manual
(or 55 of 72 of thehttp://www.grizzly.com/images/manuals/g1023sl_m.pdf),
that echoes what my wiring looks like.

So the way I read that diagram and the way I see it wired, I should
only see voltage at the 1/2 and 5/6 leads on the Thermanl Overload
Relay WHEN I switch the saw on. *Correct?

I confirmed that I do see voltage at L1/1 and L3/5 when I have the saw
plugged in.

So, if my assertion about the 1/2 and 5/6 TOR leads is correct, then
there is something definitely wrong with the starter, correct?

Thanks all,
Jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.

I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.

Thanks for all the input!
Jeff

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.

I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. �And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. �However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.

Jeff

From the information posted in this reply and if the saw wiring and
cable is wired correctly your/the source of power is 110 volts and/or
the receptacle that your cable is connected to is wired incorrectly.
Check the voltage at the receptacle where your saw is connected to. It
should NOT be a conventional 110 volt receptacle.

Bob AZ

JJ wrote:

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.

I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.

Thanks for all the input!
Jeff

In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.

You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
result that you have.

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:34:01 -0700, Dan Coby
wrote:

JJ wrote:

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.

I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.

Thanks for all the input!
Jeff

In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.

You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
result that you have.

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

So are you using a L6-30 plug? Does the receptacle show 240 volts
between the hot legs? Did your electrician run a brand new 10 gauge
romex attached to a brand new double pole breaker? An amatuer
electrician might say hot is hot and try to jumper both hot legs. Or
he might hook both hot wires to the same leg on a breaker. Those
people are not called electricians though. ;-)

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal... F7C&pid=1208

Oops, asked already.

On Sep 14, 9:34 pm, Dan Coby wrote:
JJ wrote:

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.

I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.

Thanks for all the input!
Jeff

In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.

You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
result that you have.

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

Thanks for the note Dan. I will verify. Is there any plausible
reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
180 degrees out of phase?

Jeff

JJ wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:34 pm, Dan Coby wrote:
....

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

Thanks for the note Dan. I will verify. Is there any plausible
reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
180 degrees out of phase?

Only if used two single pole breakers that picked up the same side of
the buss bar or the double isn't correct for the panel and did the same.

I guess the other outlandish possibility would be that both sides of the
supply panel are being fed by one side so there's no 240V available from
the panel at all but that would really be bizarre installation...

--

JJ wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:34 pm, Dan Coby wrote:
JJ wrote:

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.
I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.
Thanks for all the input!
Jeff
In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.

You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
result that you have.

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

Thanks for the note Dan. I will verify. Is there any plausible
reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
180 degrees out of phase?

Distribution panels are setup so that every other breaker position is connected
together. The remaining positions are connected to the opposite phase. As a
result, double pole breakers have 240 volts between their hot wires. I would
be very surprised if there was something different at the breaker. However
there may be a problem between the breaker and your switch. For instance, the
two hot wires from your switch may not connect to the double pole breaker like
you think. A couple of measurements with a voltmeter should give you more
information.

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

Thanks for the note Dan. �I will verify. �Is there any plausible
reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
180 degrees out of phase?

result, double pole breakers have 240 volts between their hot wires. �I would
be very surprised if there was something different at the breaker. �However
there may be a problem between the breaker and your switch. �For instance, the
two hot wires from your switch may not connect to the double pole breaker like
you think. �A couple of measurements with a voltmeter should give you more
information.-

Dan & Jeff

Maybe the "double breaaker" is in fact one of theose breaker bodies
that has two breakers in one housing so each breaker is on he same
leg!!

Bob AZ

On Sep 14, 10:30 pm, Jim Behning
wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:34:01 -0700, Dan Coby
wrote:



JJ wrote:

FYI...for the other person responding to this, the saw is 3hp, 240v,
single phase.

I am seeing 120v between L1/1 and ground. And also 120v between L3/5
and ground. However, I am most definitely NOT seeing any volts
between L1/1 and L3/5.

Thanks for all the input!
Jeff

In the US, a 240 volt circuit come from a transformer winding that is
'center tapped'. The center tap is connected to ground/neutral at the
distribution panel. The result is equivalent to two 120 volt circuits.
The two 120 volt circuits are 180 degrees out of phase. I.e. one circuit
is going positive while the other is going negative. The result is 240
volts between the hot sides of the two circuits.

You have indicated that you have 120 volts between the two outputs and
ground. That is consistent with normal expectations. However the fact
that you are seeing no voltage between the two output says that something
is strange. One plausible cause is that your '240' volt supply did not
come from two 120 volt circuits that are 180 degrees out of phase. If,
instead, the two circuits are in phase (0 degrees) you would see the
result that you have.

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot wires.

So are you using a L6-30 plug? Does the receptacle show 240 volts
between the hot legs? Did your electrician run a brand new 10 gauge
romex attached to a brand new double pole breaker? An amatuer
electrician might say hot is hot and try to jumper both hot legs. Or
he might hook both hot wires to the same leg on a breaker. Those
people are not called electricians though. ;-)

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...?sid=11CC88804...

Oops, asked already.

Yes, he put in a L6-30 receptacle and a matching plug on the saw.
I'll check the voltage across the hot legs at the receptacle when I
get home tonight. I suspect it will be the same as in the switch
(each hot to the ground will be 120v, but nothing across the hots).
And yes, he ran new 10/2 cable from a double pole breaker to the new
receptacle.

So, if each hot leg is supplying 120v, and they are coming off a
double pole breaker, does it make any sense for no volts across the
two hots? Could this be a bad breaker?

Jeff

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:10:04 -0700 (PDT), JJ
wrote:
Thanks for the note Dan. I will verify. Is there any plausible
reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
180 degrees out of phase?

Jeff

If someone who wasn't watching or didn't know what they were doing
connected the wrong wires to the breakers, you could have that
condition. If the circuit is wired with NMC, you'll see the white wire
from one cable going to one breaker and the black wire going to a
different breaker. If you can't tell which wires feed the circuit,
trip the breaker and make sure both hot wires at the saw show zero
voltage to ground. If not, then one of the wires is connected to a
different breaker. If that's the case, keep tripping breakers until
both wires are cold. Then, swap the affected wires to correct the
problem. That's assuming the wire gauges that are swapped are correct
for the breaker they finally land on.

If that's not the case, it could be, as suggested elsewhere, the
breaker in use is not the correct type for the distribution box. I've
also heard tales of boxes in which some positions aren't usable for
double pole breakers because adjacent positions don't span both legs.
If that's the case, you'll see both wires go cold when you trip the
breaker. To correct that, you'll need to rearrange the vertical
position of the breakers so the double pole breaker is in the correct
position. I don't know if such boxes exist or not. In my limited
experience, I've not encountered one, or haven't noticed if I did.

One other thought is that if the circuit was "self-installed" and a
half height breaker (two breakers in a single position) was used, or
if someone has been monkeying around with the wiring and both wires
ended up landing on one of those, you'd see the results you're seeing.
I assume that's not the case since you'd surely have noticed that by
now.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

dpb wrote:
JJ wrote:

On Sep 14, 9:34 pm, Dan Coby wrote:

....

Check your supply, verify that you have 240 volts between the two hot
wires.


Thanks for the note Dan. I will verify. Is there any plausible
reason that my supply coming off the double pole breaker would not be
180 degrees out of phase?


Only if used two single pole breakers that picked up the same side of
the buss bar or the double isn't correct for the panel and did the same.

I guess the other outlandish possibility would be that both sides of the
supply panel are being fed by one side so there's no 240V available from
the panel at all but that would really be bizarre installation...

--

I may not be all that bizarre if it's an old house with only a 120V service.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

JJ writes:

So, if each hot leg is supplying 120v, and they are coming off a
double pole breaker, does it make any sense for no volts across the
two hots? Could this be a bad breaker

More likely either not really a double pole breaker, or it was
installed in the wrong slot in the panelbox. Some panelboxes only
provide stubs for double pole breakers in certain positions.

scott

"Scott Lurndal" wrote:

More likely either not really a double pole breaker, or it was
installed in the wrong slot in the panelbox. Some panelboxes only
provide stubs for double pole breakers in certain positions.

All panel boxes will only allow 2P c'bkrs to be installed in true 2P
locations.

That said, there was a time when certain manufacturers provided handle
tie kits that could be improperly installed on a pair of 1P c'bkrs
which does not provide a 240V ck't, but rather a a 120V ck't.


Lew

And yes, he ran new 10/2 cable from a double pole breaker to the new
receptacle.

- Show quoted text -

Jeff

Possible code violation unless there is a dedicated ground system in
use. Rarely seen.

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.

Bob AZ

Bob AZ wrote:
And yes, he ran new 10/2 cable from a double pole breaker to the new
receptacle.

- Show quoted text -

Jeff

Possible code violation unless there is a dedicated ground system in
use. Rarely seen.

How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3 prong
plug? These are brand new installations.

I seriously doubt they are all violations.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ
wrote:

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.

What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:51:11 -0400, B A R R Y
wrote:

Possible code violation unless there is a dedicated ground system in
use. Rarely seen.

I think the most prevalent case is to simply use the bare ground wire
in the #/2 cable for the ground. Almost universally seen.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Tom Veatch wrote:

I think the most prevalent case is to simply use the bare ground wire
in the #/2 cable for the ground. Almost universally seen.

That's how I understand it. Two hots and a ground, no neutral.

Dryers and stoves need the neutral, because they also need 120v from the
same circuit.

"B A R R Y" wrote:

How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3
prong plug? These are brand new installations.

I seriously doubt they are all violations.

It's a nomenclature problem.

"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.

IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.

"10/3" same as above except add N(White).

Lew

B A R R Y wrote:
Tom Veatch wrote:


I think the most prevalent case is to simply use the bare ground wire
in the #/2 cable for the ground. Almost universally seen.


That's how I understand it. Two hots and a ground, no neutral.

Dryers and stoves need the neutral, because they also need 120v from the
same circuit.

Very common, provided the connectors are a type 250 Volt NEMA 6-XX
(where XX = the rated amperage) connector to prevent a 120V appliance
from being plugged into the 220V outlet (and vise versa).

http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:16:36 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

....

"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.

IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.

"10/3" same as above except add N(White).


Lew, are you sure you didn't misspeak there? As I recall, all the 2+G
NMC I've seen was Black/White/Bare. I've not seen the Red wire except
in 3+G cables. Maybe there's a different NMC color combination cable
for use in 240v circuits?

Don't think you'd want to choose a Black/Red/Bare for a 120v circuit.
'Course that's probably no worse than using Black/White/Bare for 240v.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Tom Veatch wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:16:36 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

....

"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.

IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.

"10/3" same as above except add N(White).



Lew, are you sure you didn't misspeak there? As I recall, all the 2+G
NMC I've seen was Black/White/Bare. I've not seen the Red wire except
in 3+G cables. Maybe there's a different NMC color combination cable
for use in 240v circuits?

Don't think you'd want to choose a Black/Red/Bare for a 120v circuit.
'Course that's probably no worse than using Black/White/Bare for 240v.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

I believe you are correct Tom. The white wire has to be either wrapped
with black electrical tape or marked with a permanent black marker to
indicate it is used as a hot lead.


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Tom Veatch wrote:

Lew, are you sure you didn't misspeak there? As I recall, all the
2+G
NMC I've seen was Black/White/Bare.

I stand corrected.

Need to remember to engage brain before hitting send key.

Lew

BTW, I NEVER trust color codes. Always "ring" the circuit as I go.

Lew

Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ
wrote:

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.

What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3 prong
plug? � These are brand new installations.

I seriously doubt they are all violations.

Barry

A 240 volt installation requires only 2 wires and ground. Two hots and
a ground if you will.

I don't know of any cable of the type mentioned by the OP that are
just one black and one red wire with a ground. So the closest cable
available that I am familiar with that meets the NEC has a red and
black and a white wire together with a ground wire.

If a two wire cable with ground is used it is usually with a black and
a white wire with a ground. In this case the white wire must be ID'ed,
usually with red tape. There are also requirements for how the tape is
used for identification.

Take care
Bob AZ

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.

What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Tom

I am not sure what the jurisdictions and/or the NEC require for the
unused white wire. I see them cut back, just left hanging, taped back
and just pushed out of the way. I usually tape them back or cut them
back. Sometimes I find a wirenut on the white wire.

It is always nice to find a white wire to use for a neutral for a low
current use. Much more than a few amps and I run another hot from
another circuit breaker.

Just a note he
220 volt appliances now require a separate neutral, white wire, if
there are any 110 volt loads. Such as receptacles etc.

Bob AZ

On Sep 17, 5:16�pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote:

How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3
prong plug? � These are brand new installations.

I seriously doubt they are all violations.

It's a nomenclature problem.

"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.

IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.

"10/3" same as above except add N(White).

Lew