The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

Dave N

A white wire can not be used for ground unless marked with green. Tape
or permanent marker. (And some inspectors will not accept this) Both
the case and the appliance must be connected to ground.

Also the grounding appliance wire(s) must be pigtailed in this case so
that the appliance can be changed without disturbing the case ground.
The ground wire has two uses in this instance.

The Black and the Red wires don't have to be pigtailed since they have
a single use in this instance.

And also again different jurisdictions have different interpretations
for these things. Prior work is also has some part of this.

Bob AZ

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

Well, I suppose local jurisdictions do differ. I'm just glad that the
local jurisdiction here doesn't require the unnecessary expense of two
parallel equipment grounding conductors. In this locale, 240v circuits
are wired with /2 cables where the 2 conductors are the hot wires
(white marked at the connections with black tape or heat shrink) and
the bare (never seen green in NMC) is used as the EGC.

In fact, I was under the opinion, apparently mistaken, that the NEC
held the white color code somewhat sacrosanct and required it be re
colored if used for anything other than the neutral conductor.

The only time /3 cables are used is for circuits required to supply
dual voltage (black and red hot, white neutral) or circuits that
include 3-way switches.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ
wrote:

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.

What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. That
concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.

Was your electrician licensed?

You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.

I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
it needed too without issue.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/elect...0v_breaker.htm

When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.

Jim Behning wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ
wrote:

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.
What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. That
concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.

Was your electrician licensed?

You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.

I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
it needed too without issue.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/elect...0v_breaker.htm

When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.

Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the breaker. I was
talking about a dual pole breaker. I absolutely agree that two seperate
breakers should never be used on a single circuit. My colors may be
backwards also. The point I was trying to make was to try to answer the
OP's question about the white wire. Also the GREEN safety wire should
ALWAYS be connected to the frames. A young man was killed where I used
to work due to the motor on a large fan shorting to ground. The fan was
setting on a wood pallet and the wiring was not safety grounded. When he
reached to restart the fan he became the ground. The electriction stated
to me that he always cut the green wire off. This was long before OSHA
existed.

I agree with everything you wrote.

Dave Nagel

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote:

How do all those 240v air conditioners I see locally work with a 3
prong plug? These are brand new installations.

I seriously doubt they are all violations.

It's a nomenclature problem.

"10/2" is shorthand for 10/2/WG.

IOW: L1(Black), L2 (Red), and bare earth ground in a common sheath.

"10/3" same as above except add N(White).

Lew




Maybe...

Bob AZ wrote:

If a two wire cable with ground is used it is usually with a black and
a white wire with a ground. In this case the white wire must be ID'ed,
usually with red tape. There are also requirements for how the tape is
used for identification.


Right! Known as 10/2 where I am.

"Lew Hodgett" writes:

"Scott Lurndal" wrote:

More likely either not really a double pole breaker, or it was
installed in the wrong slot in the panelbox. Some panelboxes only
provide stubs for double pole breakers in certain positions.

All panel boxes will only allow 2P c'bkrs to be installed in true 2P
locations.

I've seen examples that allow 2P breakers installed in non-2p slots,
particularly last 60's/early 70's GE panelboxes.

I personally prefer Square-D which have never allowed that.

scott

"Scott Lurndal" wrote:

I've seen examples that allow 2P breakers installed in non-2p slots,
particularly last 60's/early 70's GE panelboxes.

As somebody responsible for the sale of GE loadcenters during the
above time period, I can guarantee that you could not install a 2P GE
c'bkr in an incorrect position in the loadcenter.

Engineering kept emphasizing to sales that this was a design feature
and should be pointed out to customers.

You must be confusing GE loadcenters with another manufacturer.

Lew

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:26:00 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

Jim Behning wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob AZ
wrote:

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.
What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. That
concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.

Was your electrician licensed?

You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.

I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
it needed too without issue.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/elect...0v_breaker.htm

When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.

Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the breaker. I was
talking about a dual pole breaker. I absolutely agree that two seperate
breakers should never be used on a single circuit. My colors may be
backwards also. The point I was trying to make was to try to answer the
OP's question about the white wire. Also the GREEN safety wire should
ALWAYS be connected to the frames. A young man was killed where I used
to work due to the motor on a large fan shorting to ground. The fan was
setting on a wood pallet and the wiring was not safety grounded. When he
reached to restart the fan he became the ground. The electriction stated
to me that he always cut the green wire off. This was long before OSHA
existed.

I agree with everything you wrote.

Dave Nagel
So who was the original poster? :-) I hope he is still safe and not
victim of someone's questionable wiring job.

Scott Lurndal wrote:

I've seen examples that allow 2P breakers installed in non-2p slots,
particularly last 60's/early 70's GE panelboxes.

I live in a home built in 1991 that has a GE box that will allow it.

This is why I asked the OP ~ 40 messages ago if he can read 220-240vac
hot to hot. I did it myself.

Lew Hodgett wrote:

You must be confusing GE loadcenters with another manufacturer.

Maybe my 1991 GE load center is defective.

"B A R R Y" wrote:

Maybe my 1991 GE load center is defective.

Possible, but wonder if the installing contractor may have played some
games.

A proper 2P c'bkr will have a common internal trip in addition to the
handle tie.

The insulating plastic that supports the buss bars has stubs sticking
up that reject placing a 2P device in the wrong location.

Some c'bkr manufacturers for a while offered a handle tie kit that
would allow you to handle tie non GE, 1P c'bkrs together but didn't
have a common internal trip.

Breaking off the interfering stop, improperly handle tying 1P c'bkrs
are just a couple of the possible explanations.

Without inspecting the hardware, it is pure speculation.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote:

Maybe my 1991 GE load center is defective.

Possible, but wonder if the installing contractor may have played some
games.

A proper 2P c'bkr will have a common internal trip in addition to the
handle tie.

The insulating plastic that supports the buss bars has stubs sticking
up that reject placing a 2P device in the wrong location.

Some c'bkr manufacturers for a while offered a handle tie kit that
would allow you to handle tie non GE, 1P c'bkrs together but didn't
have a common internal trip.

Breaking off the interfering stop, improperly handle tying 1P c'bkrs
are just a couple of the possible explanations.

Without inspecting the hardware, it is pure speculation.

Lew



Thanks!

I'm going to be opening the panel in the next week or two as I run a new
DC feed. I'll look and report back.

On Sep 18, 5:44*pm, Jim Behning
wrote:
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:26:00 -0500, "David G. Nagel"



wrote:
Jim Behning wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:52:43 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT), Bob *AZ
wrote:

Also there is a possibility that your juristiction may require the
cable to be 10-3 with ground. This would give you a black, red and
white wire in the cable along with the ground.
What do those jurisdictions require be done with the white wire which
won't bet connected to anything on either end?

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
The black wire is attached to the first breaker, the red wire is
connected to the second breaker, the white wire is connected to the
ground strip mounted around the breakers. The other end of the cable is
connected in a similar fashion. The black is attached to one blade
socked, the red is connected to the other blade socket, the white is
attached to the ground socket. The green wire is attached to the case at
each end of the cable.

Dave N

I do not know where you live but when you say the black attaches to
one circuit breaker and the red attaches to another breaker. *That
concerns me. You "should" have one 30 amp dual pole breaker. Yes some
breakers have the ability to "bond" with a strap or something that
causes both breakers to disconnect if there is a fault. Are these
breakers "bonded" with a strap between the reset levers? If it is not
then you could have deadly possibility of thinking the circuit is dead
but still have 120 happening. I did once have a 3 pole breaker that
when it popped it did not release all three legs. That was exciting.
Note in the tutorial at the end that they show a double pole breaker.
This breaker is one unit that connects to both hot buss bars and the
trip levers are connected so if one leg has a fault it disconnects
both legs. See page 4 where you see the hot busses above the breaker
zigging and zagging. If you go to you local Home Depot, Lowes or good
hardware store they have breakers you can touch and a panel box. You
should be able to see the two separate hot busses there. If you pop
out the double pole breaker you should see two separate and distinct
buss bars underneath it. Once again your licensed electrician should
be doing this stuff but looking at the home center is no risk of life.

Was your electrician licensed?

You should not be dealing with this anymore. Your licensed electrician
should come back and show you with his multimeter that all is correct
on his wiring job. I lost track of the thread so I am assuming that a
professional did the wiring but stating you have two breakers makes me
suspicious. I am not an electrician and I do not have the latest
annotated NEC book to read up on breaker requirements.

I have had licensed electricians do work improperly. They had to come
out and redo their work. I had an air compressor with a dryer that
they ran too small of wire. The conduit was pretty darn hot. They
pulled bigger wire which helped. I suspect in retrospect that the
conduit may have been too small but the compressor ran the few months
it needed too without issue.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/elect...0v_breaker.htm

When I work on my stuff I walk outside the house and I turn of the 200
amp disconnect. When my licensed electrician reaches in to my box to
do live work I tell him to wait a minute while I walk outside to
disconnect. Even though he does commercial work every day while hot, I
don't want fried electrician in my house. A guy blew himself up a few
months ago doing live work in our office complex. His helper got a
trip to the hospital. Power was out for a few days after that mess.
Yes electricity can blow you up. Maybe not literally but with enough
amps it can be pretty messy and deadly.

Maybe I should have been a little more specific about the breaker. I was
talking about a dual pole breaker. I absolutely agree that two seperate
breakers should never be used on a single circuit. My colors may be
backwards also. The point I was trying to make was to try to answer the
OP's question about the white wire. Also the GREEN safety wire should
ALWAYS be connected to the frames. A young man was killed where I used
to work due to the motor on a large fan shorting to ground. The fan was
setting on a wood pallet and the wiring was not safety grounded. When he
reached to restart the fan he became the ground. The electriction stated
to me that he always cut the green wire off. This was long before OSHA
existed.

I agree with everything you wrote.

Dave Nagel

So who was the original poster? :-) I hope he is still safe and not
victim of someone's questionable wiring job.

Still here. I've had some computer issues for a couple of weeks.
Scott nailed it. Electrician installed double pole breaker
incorrectly. My panel allows a double pole breaker to fit in slots
powered by same phase lead. I moved the breaker down one slot and
it's good now. Saw is running. Electrician's name removed from
Rolodex. :-)

Thanks for all the good input!

Jeff