So I decided to build a CD tower 54x16x8 out of oak veneered plywood,
edge-banding side fronts with solid oak. Since I seem to have a
tendency to complicate my life, I decided to dado the groves for
shelves - all seven of them on both sides. Silly, I know, but too late
now. Anyway, after agonizing over how to line everything up and clean
up the glue before it dried, it turned out all right, everything seems
to be lined up and flat.

When assembling the case, I realized that I wasn't able to fit in the
shelves into grooves on both sides, and align and clamp everything
together in time before the glue dries up. So I first glued the
shelves into one side ensuring they were fully seated in the grooves.
I didn't apply any clamping fearing it may screw up the squareness.
After drying, I sank this structure into the second side (what a
pain!), and then clampled it all together. I know the concern is that
clamping could break the joinery from the first gluing, but when I
checked everyting in the end, it all looked strong.

My first question: Do you guys have situations like this, and how do
you go about assembling the case.

I also had a problem with the veneer chipping off the plywood for
every crosscut - miter saw, table saw, circ saw, all the same.

Hence, my second question: Other then applying the masking tape for
every cut, which I found to be quite messy when dealing with many
cuts, do you guys know any other way? Yes, I ensured the blade was
sharp, and I brought it to full speed.

Many thanks.

Student wrote:
....
...story of complicated glue snipped for brevity...

My first question: Do you guys have situations like this, and how do
you go about assembling the case.

Everybody does on occasion, of course.

Couple of things--use a glue w/ a longer open time. TB III is over I or
II, there are specifics for the purpose as well readily available.

Secondly, the idea of gluing one end and then the other is often very
appropriate. To do the clamp up, the only thing I'd have probably done
differently would be to have used the other side w/o the glue to aid in
the square-up process in the first step. If I thought it were too many
at once, I'd even have only done half, say, of the first side the first
time.

Lastly, experience will help. You'll learn and get more adept. Also,
making sure all clamps are preset to rough size, everything's handy, dry
fitting, etc., etc., are steps to take.

I also had a problem with the veneer chipping off the plywood for
every crosscut - miter saw, table saw, circ saw, all the same.
....

Mostly blade type and quality then would be the question. A blade
specifically designed for ply will cut very cleanly.

--

"Student" wrote in message
When assembling the case, I realized that I wasn't able to fit in the
shelves into grooves on both sides, and align and clamp everything
together in time before the glue dries up.

Were these stopped dados (dados cut into a side but not running to any edge)
or were these straight through dados? What was to stop you from gluing two
shelves attaching both sides and squaring it up and clamping for the glue to
dry? Should be five minutes tops from start to clamping. Then you could
slide in the other shelves when convenient. Other alternatives are to clamp
square blocks at the 90° junction of a shelf and a side. A more exotic
method (and more expensive is to use something like these:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...01&cat=1,43838

I also had a problem with the veneer chipping off the plywood for
every crosscut - miter saw, table saw, circ saw, all the same.

What kind of blade were you using? For cross cutting veneered plywood, I
always use a carbide 60 tooth combination blade at a minimum. Some things
that can help you with tearout is to use a zero clearance insert, score the
plywood on the cut line with a razor knife, or even have a thin sheet of
junk ply under the veneered sheet to prevent tearout.

On Jun 13, 9:29*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Student" wrote in message
When assembling the case, I realized that I wasn't able to fit in the
shelves into grooves on both sides, and align and clamp everything
together in time before the glue dries up.

Were these stopped dados (dados cut into a side but not running to any edge)
or were these straight through dados?

I had first cut the straight through dados on both sides, then edge-
banded them with solid oak. So they are look-alike stopped dadoes.

What was to stop you from gluing two
shelves attaching both sides and squaring it up and clamping for the glue to
dry? Should be five minutes tops from start to clamping. Then you could
slide in the other shelves when convenient.

If all the grooves were identical in depth and width, this would have
been the way to go. Perhaps they were, but I wasn't sure, and didn't
want to take the risk. It's a good idea though.


I also had a problem with the veneer chipping off the plywood for
every crosscut - miter saw, table saw, circ saw, all the same.

What kind of blade were you using? For cross cutting veneered plywood, I
always use a carbide 60 tooth combination blade at a minimum. Some things
that can help you with tearout is to use a zero clearance insert, score the
plywood on the cut line with a razor knife, or even have a thin sheet of
junk ply under the veneered sheet to prevent tearout.

I have a 60-tooth blade on my 12-inch slider. Scoring the surface is a
good idea. Thanks.

On Jun 13, 8:22*am, dpb wrote:
Student wrote:

Couple of things--use a glue w/ a longer open time. *TB III is over I or
II, there are specifics for the purpose as well readily available.

Good idea. Thanks.


Secondly, the idea of gluing one end and then the other is often very
appropriate. *To do the clamp up, the only thing I'd have probably done
differently would be to have used the other side w/o the glue to aid in
the square-up process in the first step. *If I thought it were too many
at once, I'd even have only done half, say, of the first side the first
time.

Lastly, experience will help. *You'll learn and get more adept. *Also,
making sure all clamps are preset to rough size, everything's handy, dry
fitting, etc., etc., are steps to take.

I don't have expensive Besseys, I use instead straps with ratchets.
Takes time to get used to quickly passing the starps around and
locking them up. Thing is, I am occasional at this, every new project
is a while after the previous one, so experience is no longer there.
But you are quite right, it helps.


I also had a problem with the veneer chipping off the plywood for
every crosscut - miter saw, table saw, circ saw, all the same.

...

Mostly blade type and quality then would be the question. *A blade
specifically designed for ply will cut very cleanly.

OK, will try that. Thanks.


--

Student wrote:
....
I don't have expensive Besseys, I use instead straps with ratchets.
Takes time to get used to quickly passing the starps around and
locking them up. ...

Don't need expensive Bessey clamps, but you do need clamps rather than
straps. Straps have their place, but this kind of glue up ain't that place.

Inexpensive bar clamps would suit...

--

On Jun 13, 10:05*am, dpb wrote:
Student wrote:

...

I don't have expensive Besseys, I use instead straps with ratchets.
Takes time to get used to quickly passing the starps around and
locking them up. ...

Don't need expensive Bessey clamps, but you do need clamps rather than
straps. *Straps have their place, but this kind of glue up ain't that place.

No? The worked fine for me, except they are more tedious to use. Why
do you think this is not their place?


Inexpensive bar clamps would suit...


Don't have enough of them. I also foud that inexpensive ones are often
poorly made. I bought some on sale at Sears, and at least 1 in 5 had
some problem: the handle would fall off, the head would slide off, or
sometimes even break. When I save enough pennies, I'll try some Pony
clamps with black pipes. They seem reasonable compromise quality-
price.


--

Student wrote:
On Jun 13, 10:05 am, dpb wrote:
Student wrote:

...

I don't have expensive Besseys, I use instead straps with ratchets.
Takes time to get used to quickly passing the starps around and
locking them up. ...
Don't need expensive Bessey clamps, but you do need clamps rather than
straps. Straps have their place, but this kind of glue up ain't that place.

No? The worked fine for me, except they are more tedious to use. Why
do you think this is not their place?

Inexpensive bar clamps would suit...

You asked the question about difficult glue up and explained the problem
w/ the straps, didn't you?

Don't have enough of them. I also foud that inexpensive ones are often
poorly made. I bought some on sale at Sears, and at least 1 in 5 had
some problem: the handle would fall off, the head would slide off, or
sometimes even break. When I save enough pennies, I'll try some Pony
clamps with black pipes. They seem reasonable compromise quality-
price.

They also have their place but they have one major drawback -- they're
quite heavy so for light work such as you were doing here they're often
as much a hindrance as help since their weight may tend to make
square-up more of a problem than it would be w/o the extra weight. They
excel at stuff like edge joining and other places where need real force,
though.

I've got from moderately priced Jorgensen bar clamps to stuff I've
picked up at Big Lot's in the 50-cent bins--the cheap ones aren't the
quality of the others, but not been anything such as bad as you describe.

Still, for the type of work you're describing they are probably the most
suited.

One can never have too many clamps of whatever variety.

--


--

On Jun 13, 11:15*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"Student" wrote in message

I had first cut the straight through dados on both sides, then edge-
banded them with solid oak. So they are look-alike stopped dadoes.

Typically, edge banding is done last.

The oak strips were wider than the plywood, and not straight. Even
though I glued it and nailed it with a finishing nailer, I had to do
some sanding on the belt sander to make it all flush. That's why I did
it in this order. Trimming with router? Outside yes, but inside - the
shelves are in the way.

The only way I can see around your
situation should it happen again, would be to cut out the dado part of the
edge banding on the back edges. It would never be seen from the front and
permit you to slide in shelving as desired.

I didn't get this. Sorry.


If all the grooves were identical in depth and width, this would have
been the way to go. Perhaps they were, but I wasn't sure, and didn't
want to take the risk. It's a good idea though.

My apologies, I wrongly assumed you cut the dados with a router which is the
most common method of cutting them. And if you had, the best method to get
proper alignment would be to put the two sides adjacent to each other, run a
straight edge across both and then cut it with a router all in one straight
across dado.

That's how I did it. I used my edge trimmer (Ridgid, and I love it,
can't understand why some people complain) as a router. Still,
inexperienced as I am, can I always be sure that the router bit shift
a little bit, or the sliding assembly didn't move. In principle
everything should be the way you said, but I guess I need to do this a
few more times to be certain.

Upscale wrote:

Other alternatives are to clamp square blocks at the 90°
junction of a shelf and a side. A more exotic method (and more
expensive is to use something like these:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...01&cat=1,43838

Awhile back somebody recommended looking for the guy who makes those at the
woodworking show, which I did, got a great deal. Also got a good deal on
some Bessey clamps. The 'wife gets in free' ticket even allowed me to claim
I'd provided an afternoon's free entertainment for the Mrs., score all
around.

"Student" wrote in message
I had first cut the straight through dados on both sides, then edge-
banded them with solid oak. So they are look-alike stopped dadoes.

Typically, edge banding is done last. The only way I can see around your
situation should it happen again, would be to cut out the dado part of the
edge banding on the back edges. It would never be seen from the front and
permit you to slide in shelving as desired.

If all the grooves were identical in depth and width, this would have
been the way to go. Perhaps they were, but I wasn't sure, and didn't
want to take the risk. It's a good idea though.

My apologies, I wrongly assumed you cut the dados with a router which is the
most common method of cutting them. And if you had, the best method to get
proper alignment would be to put the two sides adjacent to each other, run a
straight edge across both and then cut it with a router all in one straight
across dado. Eliminating some crazy flaw somewhere, you'd be guaranteed
level and parallel dados on both sides of the shelving.

I have a 60-tooth blade on my 12-inch slider. Scoring the surface is a
good idea.

Using a slider, scoring the veneer is advisable. If you do it again,
practice on some scrap first with the scoring technique.

Student wrote:
On Jun 13, 10:05 am, dpb wrote:
Student wrote:

...

I don't have expensive Besseys, I use instead straps with ratchets.
Takes time to get used to quickly passing the starps around and
locking them up. ...
Don't need expensive Bessey clamps, but you do need clamps rather than
straps. Straps have their place, but this kind of glue up ain't that place.

No? The worked fine for me, except they are more tedious to use. Why
do you think this is not their place?

Inexpensive bar clamps would suit...


Don't have enough of them. I also foud that inexpensive ones are often
poorly made. I bought some on sale at Sears, and at least 1 in 5 had
some problem: the handle would fall off, the head would slide off, or
sometimes even break. When I save enough pennies, I'll try some Pony
clamps with black pipes. They seem reasonable compromise quality-
price.

--


I think these are still on sale. If you're on a budget, the ones listed
here are worth a look. They sure aren't Besseys, but I'm happy enough
with them. Go for the short ones if you get them.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...,57673&p=57673

Tanus

"DGDevin" wrote in message
Awhile back somebody recommended looking for the guy who makes those at
the
woodworking show, which I did, got a great deal.

There was a guy making and selling these one or two years ago. I can't
remember who it was. I think he was about $10 cheaper per pair than Lee
Valley.

Also got a good deal on some Bessey clamps.

In case you haven't read, the current line of Bessey clamps are being
replaced with an upgraded version later this summer. They new line is called
"Revo".

Awhile back somebody recommended looking for the guy who makes those
at the woodworking show, which I did, got a great deal.

There was a guy making and selling these one or two years ago. I can't
remember who it was. I think he was about $10 cheaper per pair than
Lee Valley.

The deal I got was even better, about half the price of LV.

Also got a good deal on some Bessey clamps.

In case you haven't read, the current line of Bessey clamps are being
replaced with an upgraded version later this summer. They new line is
called "Revo".

Yup, Woodcraft got me on their closeout of the old model, made a point of
conspicuously using them within a few days of purchasing for the wife's
benefit. Still ended up cleaning out the attic however. There seems to be
a natural law at work there, tool purchases lead directly to unpleasant
household chores....

Student wrote in
:

On Jun 13, 10:05*am, dpb wrote:

Don't need expensive Bessey clamps, but you do need clamps rather
than straps. *Straps have their place, but this kind of glue up ain't
that place.

No? The worked fine for me, except they are more tedious to use. Why
do you think this is not their place?

Lack of clamping force, mostly, combined with the pain of putting
them on.

Inexpensive bar clamps would suit...

When I save enough pennies, I'll try some Pony
clamps with black pipes. They seem reasonable compromise quality-
price.

Those aren't really suitable, either, because of the weight, altho
aside from that they'd be fine. The regular Jorgensen bar clamps
are what I'd use. I agree that most of the cheap knockoffs are
worse than useless. Unlike almost everyone else here, I also think
the Bessey clamps are worthless, unless you need to clamp two odd
shaped pieces together.

Apropos of your original question, I'd have done it similar to how
you did: put glue in one set of dados, put the shelves in, put the
second side on dry and clamp it all up. Then, later, remove the
second side, add glue, and re-clamp. The key point being to plan
ahead how you're going to position the work & the clamps so you
don't have to keep shifting things as you go.

John

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 05:11:08 -0700 (PDT), Student
wrote:


My first question: Do you guys have situations like this, and how do
you go about assembling the case.

Practice the glue up "dry", then plan as necessary to build
sub-assemblies.


I also had a problem with the veneer chipping off the plywood for
every crosscut - miter saw, table saw, circ saw, all the same.

If you've already got great blades,
Zero Clearance Inserts & Sleds!! G

http://www.bburke.com/woodworking/shopmadejigsandtools.html

Make sure the good side is down for circ and miter saws, and up for
table saws.

Learn to do "scoring cuts" on sliding miter saws.


---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"John McCoy" wrote in message
Unlike almost everyone else here, I also think
the Bessey clamps are worthless, unless you need to clamp two odd
shaped pieces together.

Now that statement has me confused. Web clamps are ideal for most odd shaped
clamping. The best reason to buy Bessey clamps in my opinion is that they're
square, they lay flat, they don't flex when tightened like Jorgenson style
clamps and they clamp square. Many other brands on the market fall over when
you try to ready them for project clamping. Since I generally find myself
doing some type of cabinet work, square, flat Bessey clamps are the only way
to go. IMHO