"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
s.com...

SNIP
To summarize, I believe if you hone your delivery skills you will be
better
able to get your content across. The keys are to write from the other
person's point of view and to take one's own ego out of the writing as
much
as possible.

I have a lot more I could write on this, In fact, I paused a very long
time
after writing "Yup." trying to decide if more was apprpriate. I decided
it
was better to wait for feedback, if any.


Summarizing: BAD, it seems to me that sometimes you make very good points
in such a way that many people take offense. You can learn to no create
these needless offenses; I have done so myself.

Thought? Comments?

-- Mark

My concern was not with the style of delivery, but rather if the information
that BAD posted was based in fact. I tend to get along with most people and
have learned that over time I really enjoy spending time with people who at
first I didn't understand.

It doesn't seem like the information that BAD posted was based in fact, and
posting information that you have no real knowledge of is a huge disservice
to the newsgroup

Bob McBreen

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
om...
I use the fence with a 1" aux fence to set the length. when the board
is cut, it is not in contact with either fence. that would be stupid.
the aux fence is short and is placed towards the operator's end of the
main fence. slide the work piece across the sled, up against the aux
fence. move forward and then you clear the aux fence before the blade
contacts the workplace. very elegant. quick. super accurate.

what I originally mentioned in this thread (to paraphrase myself) is
that a non slider is more accurate than a slider, but not accurate
enough for my tastes, except for less demanding work.

SNIP

OK, I understand now. At first I thought that you were using a crosscut
sled with a stop block and didn't understand where the fence came in.

Bob McBreen

So all the reviewers are wrong? And we are to believe your anecdodal
"evidence"? Do you see how easily the tables can be turned? You
castigate me as "presenting" myself as knowledgeable. There is nothing
disingenuous with providing information gleaned from reading, especially
from various reputable sources, for the consumption of others. If you
feel your slider is accurate, fine; I'm not so inclined. I've looked at
more than several of them and every time I grabbed their movable saw, I
could elicit a noticeable amount of side play; no matter the brand.
I've concluded from repeated observation AND reading that they won't
suit my purposes. Am I wrong? could be? Am I evil or stupid for
stating my opinion? Apparently in YOUR myopic eyes. Do I care? NO!!!!

dave

RWM wrote:

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...

RWM wrote:


You seem to have an interesting way of non answering. The topic was
sliding miter saws vs. non-sliding miter saws, not miter saws vs.
cross cut sleds on a table saw.

With all respect (not looking to pick a fight g) the OP was concerned
about accuracy as the thread progressed. BAD's reply (though I need more
info before I accept his responses at full value) dealt with accuracy.
(Dave -- I use a 10" thin kerf almost exclusively in my TS. ISTM there

may

be something else with your setup causing the discernable inaccuracy when
crosscutting. Also, not trying to pic a fight... g) Therefore I find
Dave's comments completely in the thread, though they differ from the
specifics of the original post.

IMHO... g

-- Mark


I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I was trying to get BAD to
state if he had really investigated the accuracy difference between the
types of saws. I find that many times people like to repeat things that
they have read to try to present themselves as knowledgeable. I have, and
use, both types of saws and one of the first things that I did after
purchasing the scms was to test the accuracy. I found zero difference even
though that I had read in many articles the throw away line "that scms were
less accurate than cms."

There are a lot of "expert" woodworkers who don't cut a lot of wood...

Bob McBreen

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
. com...
SNIP
"Am I evil or stupid for stating my opinion?"

Opinions are fine, presenting your opinions as fact can be misleading.

Bob McBreen.

Mark,

Very well thought out discourse which I can honestly say impressed me
with it's balanced tone and sincerity. I DO agree that delivery is
important for the message to be received. Now if the other side will
just play nice, we could all go back "on topic" and leave the character
assassinating posts to die a well-deserved death.

dave

Mark Jerde wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote:

Mark, you'll find there are a handful of characters here who would
argue with me if I said the sky was blue.


Well, right now, outside my window it's black with little white sparkley
thingies and occasional fluffy white thingies... g

Write something, quick, to me telling me what a useless, shiftless,
demonic, moronic, nitwit I am. Then you'll be in their good graces.


My very first job after college a wise, old, retired Air Force pilot took me
under his wing. To boil down everything he taught me, the essence is to
write and speak from the other bloke's point of view.

I have read many things you have posted. Considering the whole paragraph,
they make sense. But you, as I did before the retired Colonel grabbed my
ear and made me understand, tend to write *first* in DISagreement, then
agreement. If you develop the habit of simply reversing these, people will
take much less offense. Very few people have developed the discipline to
read an entire article or paragraph and then pass judgement -- usually each
sentence, in turn, provides the cascading emotional impact.

I suggest you learn to do what I was taught to do in the early 1980's.
Instead of writing,

"Charlie, that's the single stupidest thing I've ever heard. But in some
ways I agree with you. The grommit should always be impaled on the
gadget..."

you should *consciously* try to write like this,

"Charlie, I agree completely about impaling the grommit on the gadget.
That makes perfect sense, and I do it all the time. But I don't agree with
your point about the fridget on the slammer. It seems to me ..."

The second techique focuses on the specifics; the first, unfortunately,
tends to focus on the individuals, no matter the merits of the ancillary
information.


To choose to use the 2nd technique takes lots of discipline and willingness
to read what one has written through they eyes of another. It also requires
a concious decision to demote one's own ego. I know this, because I've been
married over 20 years and have two teenagers. g Almost daily, my
decision is between "Do I want to foster growth and understanding" or "Do I
need to beat my chest the hardest, showing I'm the biggest ape in the
jungle?" It's not easy, but I usually choose to make sure the others feel
they are communicating accurately. (Many are the times I've sat in my car
afterward, listening to 1970's music, and crying... A 40+ year old dude
sitting in a Firebird crying in the rain?: Yup.)

To summarize, I believe if you hone your delivery skills you will be better
able to get your content across. The keys are to write from the other
person's point of view and to take one's own ego out of the writing as much
as possible.

I have a lot more I could write on this, In fact, I paused a very long time
after writing "Yup." trying to decide if more was apprpriate. I decided it
was better to wait for feedback, if any.


Summarizing: BAD, it seems to me that sometimes you make very good points
in such a way that many people take offense. You can learn to no create
these needless offenses; I have done so myself.

Thought? Comments?

-- Mark

Steve,

is that a 10" or 12" and thin kerf or standard?

dave

Steve Knight wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:47:06 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:


it's not as accurate for precision cuts as a non slider. the blade and
motor will will have some lateral slop, in relation to the wood and
table. I quit using my non-slider for super precise cross-cuts. I made
a sled and use the TS for accurate cross-cuts. Like to within .005 or
better.


my makita is as accurate as you are going to get with a good blade. I don't find
the saw flexing at all. it blew away my delta chopsaws for accuracy and they
were not sliders.

no argument there. i suspect the thin kerf to be much of the problem.

Steve Knight wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:43:46 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:


as long as YOU are happy with the accuracy that's all that matters. I
don't even use my Dewalt CMS for precise cross-cuts. I use a sled. By
using a moving blade and the Bies fence I can quickly cut a number of
boards to exact length and the cut is cleaner than what comes off my
Dewalt, even using an 80 tooth blade. A moving WWII gives a better cut
than the 80 Dewalt. Plus the DeWalt is thin kerf and it WILL flex when
cutting wider boards, even those that aren't very thick, and YES, even
if I go pretty slowly.

well you are using a 12" thin kerf blade what do you expect? try a 1) WW chopsaw
blade a world of difference.

that's 2 votes for the Makita.

Thompson Family wrote:

"Nova" wrote in message
...

Bay Area Dave wrote:


I stand by the statement that the slider is less accurate. Read up on
them. I don't really care how YOU 'feel' about yours, I've observed
them and wouldn't buy one for precision work. Would I buy one if I was
a contractor framing a house. Yeah!

Gee, I put together a number of 12 segment rings that went together

without the

need to sand to fit. The segments were cut on a Makita LS1013 slider. I

guess 24

cuts at 15 degrees each, with practically 0 degree combined error, isn't

precision

work.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)



I have a Makita LS1013 also, great saw i can't imagine doing alot of
projects without it anymore. as far as accuricy goes i am amazed at how well
it does with trim work.

Bay Area Dave wrote:

Now if the other side will
just play nice, we could all go back "on topic" and leave the
character assassinating posts to die a well-deserved death.

bg Each of us can deal with just one person. I try to ignore insults, and
every once in a while it's successful...

-- Mark

Nova wrote:

You made me pull out the manual for my saw. I've been pulling the blade through
the cut since I had the saw. The manual tells me I've been doing it wrong. You
are correct the proper way is to push the saw through the cut.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

When I had my Delta Sawbuck it was pull through the cut. When I went to
the SCMS it was push through the cut..I use both methods, depending on
the cut I'm making at the time (i.e.- where am I willing to tolerate
minor splintering if it should occur in the finished cut). If it's just
standard trim or similar sized stock I just do the typical "chop"
through.

Never had an accuracy problem with the SCMS, it's properly adjusted and
I don't try to horse the thing through the cut.

Scott
--
An unkind remark is like a killing frost. No matter how much it warms
up later, the damage remains.

Mike in Mystic wrote...
On a SCMS
the blade is spinning upwards closest to the operator

Whaaat??! Not on mine, it doesn't, nor on any I've ever seen. I wouldn't
buy a miter saw that kicked the dust straight from the kerf into my
face... BTW, I have a DW708. What do you have?

Jim

In response to Peter's confusion...
Now I'm confused, are you saying the sliding one is not as accurate?
Then I won't buy it.......Peter

Michael penned this pear of wisdom...

Oh, for Christ's sake. Peter, the saw you are talking about is a
fantastic saw at a fantastic price. Jump on it. Some people talk
about "accuracy" around here as if they used their equipment to
machine escapements for goddamn Rolexes. Take it all with a grain of
salt. Just like most other newsgroups, this one's got it's share of
cowboys who are all hat and no cattle.

Michael nails it! AMEN!!!

Peter, I paid mail order retail for mine (Tool King of Denver) and was
delighted with the price $509. That was two years ago. Since then, I've
framed an entire house with it, and it's been in frequent use in my
cabinet shop ever since. It still makes perfect full-length crosscuts. I
have aligned it twice since buying it; once on receipt, and once after
moving it to a new station. It crosscuts long stock more easily and every
bit as accurately as a crosscut sled on my tablesaw, which is a Delta
Unisaw in excellent condition and alignment.

Echoing Michael, if it's not damaged, buy it!

Jim

Bay Area Dave wrote...
I stand by the statement that the slider is less accurate.

You're standing by a foolish statement, then.

Read up on them.

Why? He's not the one having problems. You are! Perhaps you should be
trying to figure out why your saw doesn't work as well as his (and mine).
You're obviously doing something wrong.

I don't really care how YOU 'feel' about yours,

He wasn't talking about "feelings." He was relating his experience. He
*tested* the two saws against each other. His experience is worth a lot
more than your opinion, especially given *your* comparison:

BAD I use a sled. By
using a moving blade and the Bies fence I can quickly cut a number of
boards to exact length and the cut is cleaner than what comes off my
Dewalt, even using an 80 tooth blade. A moving WWII gives a better cut
than the 80 Dewalt. Plus the DeWalt is thin kerf and it WILL flex when
cutting wider boards, even those that aren't very thick, and YES, even
if I go pretty slowly

You make a lot of mistakes here. Example 1: you use the Bies fence for
cross-cutting. Either you don't know what you are doing, or you aren't
explaining it properly. If you *are* using a stop block, then the fact
that it's on a Bies fence means nothing. If you aren't, then you are
inviting problems crosscutting with the fence on a tablesaw. Equal
accuracy (and better, for longer stock) can be achieved with a stop block
setup on the miter saw. Example 2: A "moving WWII"? In a tablesaw? Or are
you talking about the fact that the blade rotates? Like the "80 Dewalt"
doesn't? You just don't make sense. Example 3: You now have started
comparing the blades, thus changing the topic. Example 4: You complain
about not getting straight cuts, and blame it on the type of blade. You
have misdiagnosed the problem. Either your blade is bad, or your saw is
misaligned. But the problem is not attributable to the blade's thin kerf,
nor to the fact that it is being used on a SCMS.

These things seriously jeopardize your credibility.

Jim

Bay Area Dave wrote...

that's 2 votes for the Makita.

The Makita's a good saw, too. I've used both. They are equal tools in my
opinion.

Jim

You're right - I'm not sure what I was thinking. I was trying to visualize
the difference in my mind, and didn't think it through too well.

I do know that there is a risk of kickback from the SCMS if you pull it
through a cut, vs. push it through the cut. This isn't true of the RAS.

--

There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.


"Jim Wilson" wrote in message
k.net...
Mike in Mystic wrote...
On a SCMS
the blade is spinning upwards closest to the operator

Whaaat??! Not on mine, it doesn't, nor on any I've ever seen. I wouldn't
buy a miter saw that kicked the dust straight from the kerf into my
face... BTW, I have a DW708. What do you have?

Jim

you didn't read the follow up posts. that will clear up your idea that
I'm using the Bies incorrectly.

a moving blade--of course I mean moving laterally through the wood, as
opposed to a CMS that comes straight down. NOT a slider - that is
moving, akin to a TS.

so you see, Jimbo, I'm not QUITE as stupid as you surmised. you just
didn't do your homework to check the other posts explaining in
excruciating detail what I'd hope everyone could understand without me
having to explain every last little thing. You assumed too much.

dave

Jim Wilson wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote...

I stand by the statement that the slider is less accurate.


You're standing by a foolish statement, then.


Read up on them.


Why? He's not the one having problems. You are! Perhaps you should be
trying to figure out why your saw doesn't work as well as his (and mine).
You're obviously doing something wrong.


I don't really care how YOU 'feel' about yours,


He wasn't talking about "feelings." He was relating his experience. He
*tested* the two saws against each other. His experience is worth a lot
more than your opinion, especially given *your* comparison:

BAD I use a sled. By

using a moving blade and the Bies fence I can quickly cut a number of
boards to exact length and the cut is cleaner than what comes off my
Dewalt, even using an 80 tooth blade. A moving WWII gives a better cut
than the 80 Dewalt. Plus the DeWalt is thin kerf and it WILL flex when
cutting wider boards, even those that aren't very thick, and YES, even
if I go pretty slowly


You make a lot of mistakes here. Example 1: you use the Bies fence for
cross-cutting. Either you don't know what you are doing, or you aren't
explaining it properly. If you *are* using a stop block, then the fact
that it's on a Bies fence means nothing. If you aren't, then you are
inviting problems crosscutting with the fence on a tablesaw. Equal
accuracy (and better, for longer stock) can be achieved with a stop block
setup on the miter saw. Example 2: A "moving WWII"? In a tablesaw? Or are
you talking about the fact that the blade rotates? Like the "80 Dewalt"
doesn't? You just don't make sense. Example 3: You now have started
comparing the blades, thus changing the topic. Example 4: You complain
about not getting straight cuts, and blame it on the type of blade. You
have misdiagnosed the problem. Either your blade is bad, or your saw is
misaligned. But the problem is not attributable to the blade's thin kerf,
nor to the fact that it is being used on a SCMS.

These things seriously jeopardize your credibility.

Jim

I was the original poster........This was/is a remarkable post, I
learned a lot, and laughed a lot, but I think all the information taught
me to stick with my non-sliding ugly old MiterSaw. Many thanks to you
all.......Peter

"Jay" wrote in message
...
One thing to think about is clearance behind the saw. It will need to
be
farther away from the wall then a non-sliding saw. Otherwise, cutting
capacity is the main difference.


"PeterM" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 12" sliding DeWalt Miter Saw with a
rollaway
table with wheels etc for 350.- I'm just wondering if I need the
sliding
feature or not.......Any help will be appreciated

Hisss, Spitt, Groooowwwwlllll .....


Some of these posts .....



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

....so with all that sniping aside, can we summarize?

SCMS works. Is it fair to say that it requires a little more "tuning" due
solely to the fact that it does more (back to my RAS analogy)?

Never having used one and thus have to rely on things I see on TV, does it
have the depth stop that will effectively replace the RAS for most things
(assuming one has a decent table saw to handle the things one can do on a
RAS but probably shouldn't)?

Thanks for the "closure"


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
s.com...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:06:18 -0800, "PeterM" wrote:

I have a chance to buy a 12" sliding DeWalt Miter Saw with a rollaway
table with wheels etc for 350.- I'm just wondering if I need the sliding
feature or not.......Any help will be appreciated


I've had a 12" Dewalt SCMS (DW 708) for about three or four years.
Before that I used an 8-1/2" Hitachi SCMS (C8FB2). Before that I
used a 10" Makita Chop Saw. Before that I used a Stanley 5" Human
Powered Mitre(sic) Box (358-A).

Properly set up they are all accurate but the SCMS has the edge on
capacity. I do a fair amount of tallish baseboards and larger size
crown moldings and the extra capacity is a great advantage in these
situations. This is particularly true for the largest crown moldings,
as they may be cut lying down on the SCMS.

The crosscut capacity of the SCMS is much greater than the CMS. I can
rough cut a little over 20" in width on my Dewalt, by lifting the
board and the blade (do not try this at home).

It is important to use a quality blade (do not use thin kerf blades)
and to allow the blade to come up to full speed before bringing it
into contact with the wood. Deciding where to start the cut depends
on what you need to accomplish.

On pre-finished, wide flat work, or crown molding, where it must be
cut with the good side up, I usually enter the piece slowly, back at
the fence and pull towards me. Sometimes I will merely do a light
scoring cut this way and then make the full depth cut on the push
stroke. When the piece can be cut good side down I cut on the push.
On smaller pieces of trim, that could be cut as you would with a chop
saw, I push the blade into the cut, except in instances where a
pre-finished top edge would make it better to cut as with a chop saw.

On both of the SCMS types that I have used, a good feature is the
depth stop. I find this to be very useful in making dentil moldings,
scoring the line for some dado and rabbets, and for the relief cuts
that must be made to bend curved baseboards and such. To have this
work properly you must pack out the fence so that the full diameter of
the blade enters the piece all along the cut. (a two inch rip to pack
out the fence on the DW708)

To come back to the consideration of accuracy; I've found the SCMS
models that I've used to be plenty accurate for most trim work. I
also get good square crosscuts when cutting 12" wide stock for
bookcases. For very fine work, as in small moldings and small stock
sizes, as might be used in jewelry boxes, etc., I use the SCMS to get
me close and then finish up with a Lion Miter Trimmer.

A Dewalt DW708 goes for around $600 new and the price you quoted fits
in with what I usually expect to get for used equipment in good
condition (60% of current best price). This doesn't take into
consideration the stand, or any other accessories, blades, etc. that
may come with it.

If the saw is in good shape, you should wind up with an accurate,
high-capacity tool for a fair price.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Tom Kohlman asks:

SCMS works. Is it fair to say that it requires a little more "tuning" due
solely to the fact that it does more (back to my RAS analogy)?

More tuning than what? A chop style? Not much, if any.

Never having used one and thus have to rely on things I see on TV, does it
have the depth stop that will effectively replace the RAS for most things
(assuming one has a decent table saw to handle the things one can do on a
RAS but probably shouldn't)?


No. A good RAS will have a crosscut depth of 20+ inches. A good RAS can carry a
10" dado head. A good RAS can carry a molding head. The SCMS can do none of
those things.

Of course, these days a good RAS costs in the neighborhood of $3000.

Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:34:09 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:

Steve,

is that a 10" or 12" and thin kerf or standard?


10" and standard kerf. no need for a thin the saw has plenty of power. but it
makes a difference in accuracy of cut between my freud 80t and my WW blade.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Bay Area Dave sez in one breath...

you didn't read the follow up posts.

and in the next...

You assumed too much.

To belabor a minor point, what I said was that you either weren't doing
it right OR not explaining it properly. So, the latter was the case.
Fine.

However, you did manage to miss the gist of my post; perhaps it was only
so clear as yours, Davebo?

Jim

Charlie Self wrote...
A good RAS will have a crosscut depth of 20+ inches. A good RAS can carry a
10" dado head. A good RAS can carry a molding head. The SCMS can do none of
those things.

....and yet the SCMS takes nearly the same footprint as the RAS.

Of course, these days a good RAS costs in the neighborhood of $3000.

A good new one. Bargains on good used ones are pretty easy to find. Of
course, crappy used ones are even more plentiful, so the buyer must
beware. Still, it does seem odd to me that they've fallen so much
out of favor.

Jim

I believe I may be infamous for being overly terse. I hate typing.
hard to stay on the NG's w/o keyboarding, but I hate it nonetheless.

YOu are correct; I didn't explain sufficiently the first time. I
shouldn't expect you to read between the lines. next time I'll try
being a bit more forthcoming. (Just don't expect proper capitalization)

dave

Jim Wilson wrote:

Bay Area Dave sez in one breath...


you didn't read the follow up posts.


and in the next...


You assumed too much.


To belabor a minor point, what I said was that you either weren't doing
it right OR not explaining it properly. So, the latter was the case.
Fine.

However, you did manage to miss the gist of my post; perhaps it was only
so clear as yours, Davebo?

Jim

Steve,

that's been my take on why I get bowed cuts on my 12" Dewalt--it's a
skinny blade.

all of the Freud's at HD are thin kerf (all the ones in the store I was
in last week). ever see a HD with a std kerf Freud?

dave

Steve Knight wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:34:09 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:


Steve,

is that a 10" or 12" and thin kerf or standard?



10" and standard kerf. no need for a thin the saw has plenty of power. but it
makes a difference in accuracy of cut between my freud 80t and my WW blade.

that's been my take on why I get bowed cuts on my 12" Dewalt--it's a
skinny blade.

even 1/8" kerf blades can flex.

all of the Freud's at HD are thin kerf (all the ones in the store I was
in last week). ever see a HD with a std kerf Freud?


just beak down and buy the woodworker chop saw blade it cuts so nice and does it
faster too.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:58:25 GMT, "Tom Kohlman"
wrote:

...so with all that sniping aside, can we summarize?

snip of comments that demonstrate poor reading comprehension skills

You should prolly work your way through the Reader Rabbit series
before tackling the heavy stuff.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

Can you lend me yours or are you still trying to figure them out? Must be
somebody in PA that can help although I would be at a loss to tell you who
and where. Maybe check out WV?

I was simply commenting on how I had asked a few OT questions very early in
the thread and then had to endure too many OT personal snipes without seeing
the answers. Sorry you were bothered.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:58:25 GMT, "Tom Kohlman"
wrote:

...so with all that sniping aside, can we summarize?

snip of comments that demonstrate poor reading comprehension skills

You should prolly work your way through the Reader Rabbit series
before tackling the heavy stuff.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson