"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Stoutman wrote:

| To all of in an air-conditioned shop: YOU SUCK!!!
|
| Sweaty in High Point.

Going as fast as I can on a completely solar-powered air conditioner -
perhaps by next summer or the summer after...

Wish me luck! (It's sweaty here in Iowa, too.)

--
Morris Dovey

I have an evaporative cooler that works fairly well. (dry climate, El Paso)
I like the exhaust effect; it blows the dust out the slightly opened o'head
door. G

Max

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:51:56 -0700, Steve wrote:

Mac;

Thanks for the details - yes it does help to understand the context.

Cool... I was afraid that I was boring you to death... lol

We've had some pretty hot weather already, but this garage seems to be
slow to get hot inside - the only day it was unbearably hot in there was
when the outside temp hit 108 F earlier this week. On cooler days (in
the 90's) last weekend I was able to work on setting up the shop with a
large oscillating fan to keep me from getting overheated.

Something else that I should have mentioned... I'll be adding an exhaust fan
high on one wall, since I can't vent through a concrete roof...

If you can get the warm air out of the ceiling space before you turn on the AC,
it's much more efficient..

Right now I'm using a small desk-size fan, in an 11" wide board that a window
closes on... I had the fan on a shelf at the bottom of the window but the air
blowing out was too cool, so I moved it to the top of the window and the exhaust
is warmer...
Still, the top of the window is about 3 1/2 feet from the ceiling, so I'll bore
a hole in the block wall and mount a fan there with pretty louvers and all.. *g*

But once I get back into some serious guitar-building, I'm gonna need to
air-condition this space, and a mini-split system seems to be the way to
go. I tried a 12000-BTU window-type in the old garage, and it was just
not up to the job - it could do no better than to maintain the temp in
the low-to-mid 80's.

Enjoy the shop, Steve.... This is my 5th or 6th shop, and the first one that
wasn't in a garage, shared by water heater, washer & dryer, family junque,
etc...
What a luxury!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:39:23 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

No I run it in forward and it (dust blowing) hasn't been a problem.
My shop has a vaulted ceiling with a four foot wide flat at the top.

I was worried about the same thing, but when remodeling left me with
one surplus ceiling fan I decided to put it up. I prewired the boxes
in the ceiling when I built the shop, anticipating a couple of air
cleaners. Ended up with one air cleaner and the ceiling fan. If they
fight each other I haven't noticed it. The air cleaner pre-filter
seems to load up just as fast as it did without the ceiling fan.

Frank

Good to know...
We brought down a very nice ceiling fan with lights, remote, etc.... Being the
wrong color/style, the wife wouldn't allow it in the house and is in a box
someplace...
I think I'll try it!

My recliner was the wrong color, too.. a major blow to an ol' fart like me...
Finally found a large striped blanket at a local vendor that she liked, so I got
to keep my "newly decorated" recliner... lol



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:


Something else that I should have mentioned... I'll be adding an exhaust fan
high on one wall, since I can't vent through a concrete roof...

If you can get the warm air out of the ceiling space before you turn on the AC,
it's much more efficient..


Sounds like a great idea - I'm going to look into that too.

Enjoy the shop, Steve.... This is my 5th or 6th shop, and the first one that
wasn't in a garage, shared by water heater, washer & dryer, family junque,
etc...
What a luxury!


I DO have to share space with the water heater, a refreigerator &
freezer, and some household storage. And a car, since my wife will be
parking her car in there once we get everything organized. And the city
has this ordinance that requires that space for vehicles be maintained
when operating a home business, so I can't permanently expand and take
over the entire garage.

Thanks again for the info & advice!

--Steve

Steve wrote:
mac davis wrote:


Something else that I should have mentioned... I'll be adding an
exhaust fan
high on one wall, since I can't vent through a concrete roof...

If you can get the warm air out of the ceiling space before you turn
on the AC,
it's much more efficient..


Sounds like a great idea - I'm going to look into that too.

Enjoy the shop, Steve.... This is my 5th or 6th shop, and the first
one that
wasn't in a garage, shared by water heater, washer & dryer, family
junque,
etc...
What a luxury!


I DO have to share space with the water heater, a refreigerator &
freezer, and some household storage. And a car, since my wife will be
parking her car in there once we get everything organized. And the city
has this ordinance that requires that space for vehicles be maintained
when operating a home business, so I can't permanently expand and take
over the entire garage.

Thanks again for the info & advice!

--Steve
G'day Steve,
I'd agree with Mac's thinking on an exhaust fan up high. I have a
corrugated iron shed, about 40 x 24 with 9' walls and a pitch height of
12'. Putting a whirly bird "wind powered exhaust fan" at the very top of
the roof helped heaps.
The walls are now insulated and the roof about half way and I have an
evaporative air con in the wall.
Humidity is not a problem in Kalgoorlie. however temperatures range from
-4 to 48c.

all the best
John

Sun, Jul 8, 2007, 11:24am (EDT-1) (Morris*Dovey) doth
sayeth:
Going as fast as I can on a completely solar-powered air conditioner -
perhaps by next summer or the summer after...snip

Did a google. Seems like it could be done already. I didn't check
the sites, but a lot of them gave that impressio.

Some years back found an article on a solar boiler, with parabolic
mirrors. Ran down to a steam engine. One thing about a steam engine,
ten don't need to e too huge o put ut a lot of power (torque). Solar
boiler, steam engine, truck refrigeration uit, or air conditioner.
Should work. Or plant a batch of trees so your shop is shaded.



JOAT
I do things I don't know how to do, so that I might learn how to do
them.
- Picasso

J T wrote:
| Sun, Jul 8, 2007, 11:24am (EDT-1) (Morris Dovey)
| doth sayeth:
| Going as fast as I can on a completely solar-powered air
| conditioner - perhaps by next summer or the summer after...snip
|
| Did a google. Seems like it could be done already. I didn't
| check the sites, but a lot of them gave that impressio.
|
| Some years back found an article on a solar boiler, with
| parabolic mirrors. Ran down to a steam engine. One thing about a
| steam engine, ten don't need to e too huge o put ut a lot of power
| (torque). Solar boiler, steam engine, truck refrigeration uit, or
| air conditioner. Should work. Or plant a batch of trees so your
| shop is shaded.

Shade works well. So does designing a building to be cool.

My personal preference runs toward simplicity and a minimum of moving
parts.

I'm planning to drive a fluidyne (a Stirling engine using water
pistons) with heated air from a passive flat panel collector, then use
the kinetic energy from that engine to drive a second fluidyne which
(I'm hoping) will develop a hot side and a cold side. The cold side
will be used to chill water to be circulated by third fluidyne pump.
Total moving parts: 5 (the first three of which are water, and the
last two are the "flappers" in a pair of check valves. None of it will
be as warm as the boiling point of water.

It does seem as though someone should already have done exactly this,
but I haven't been able to find a trace.

There has been a fair amount of development with high temperature
mechanical systems, but such systems are inherently expensive. The
solution I'm after doesn't add up to anything more than heated air
causing columns of water to oscillate in tubing.

Only the thermally-driven engine (two out of the three fluidynes) is
working at this point. We've scaled it up to use 4" schedule 40 PVC
pipe - and are only getting about a two-inch "stroke" (should be
between 15" and 18"), but that's a lot better than the initial 1/8"
stroke it started with. Cooling power will depend on solar collector
area, and the general rule of thumb there is about a kW per square
meter of panel.

It probably won't be wonderfully efficient, but it should be
considerably more efficient than a high temperature system. Also, by
using flat panel collectors it should be able to operate in hazy and
overcast weather. I'm not sure how the efficiency stacks up against a
conventional air-conditioner - but since the sun is providing all the
power needed, it shouldn't have /any/ operating cost.

Best of all, none of the parts can wear out.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris and Joat,

Have you looked into using an "absorption refrigeration" system to make your
solar powered air conditioner? A small heat source makes them work quite
well. Do you remember the old Servel refrigerators that ran on propane ?
(also some newer camping refrigerators that are multi-powered use this
principle) No moving mechanical parts and great efficiency. In fact, many of
the 60-80 year old Servels are still in use.

Charley


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
J T wrote:
| Sun, Jul 8, 2007, 11:24am (EDT-1) (Morris Dovey)
| doth sayeth:
| Going as fast as I can on a completely solar-powered air
| conditioner - perhaps by next summer or the summer after...snip
|
| Did a google. Seems like it could be done already. I didn't
| check the sites, but a lot of them gave that impressio.
|
| Some years back found an article on a solar boiler, with
| parabolic mirrors. Ran down to a steam engine. One thing about a
| steam engine, ten don't need to e too huge o put ut a lot of power
| (torque). Solar boiler, steam engine, truck refrigeration uit, or
| air conditioner. Should work. Or plant a batch of trees so your
| shop is shaded.

Shade works well. So does designing a building to be cool.

My personal preference runs toward simplicity and a minimum of moving
parts.

I'm planning to drive a fluidyne (a Stirling engine using water
pistons) with heated air from a passive flat panel collector, then use
the kinetic energy from that engine to drive a second fluidyne which
(I'm hoping) will develop a hot side and a cold side. The cold side
will be used to chill water to be circulated by third fluidyne pump.
Total moving parts: 5 (the first three of which are water, and the
last two are the "flappers" in a pair of check valves. None of it will
be as warm as the boiling point of water.

It does seem as though someone should already have done exactly this,
but I haven't been able to find a trace.

There has been a fair amount of development with high temperature
mechanical systems, but such systems are inherently expensive. The
solution I'm after doesn't add up to anything more than heated air
causing columns of water to oscillate in tubing.

Only the thermally-driven engine (two out of the three fluidynes) is
working at this point. We've scaled it up to use 4" schedule 40 PVC
pipe - and are only getting about a two-inch "stroke" (should be
between 15" and 18"), but that's a lot better than the initial 1/8"
stroke it started with. Cooling power will depend on solar collector
area, and the general rule of thumb there is about a kW per square
meter of panel.

It probably won't be wonderfully efficient, but it should be
considerably more efficient than a high temperature system. Also, by
using flat panel collectors it should be able to operate in hazy and
overcast weather. I'm not sure how the efficiency stacks up against a
conventional air-conditioner - but since the sun is providing all the
power needed, it shouldn't have /any/ operating cost.

Best of all, none of the parts can wear out.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Charley wrote:
| Morris and Joat,
|
| Have you looked into using an "absorption refrigeration" system to
| make your solar powered air conditioner? A small heat source makes
| them work quite well. Do you remember the old Servel refrigerators
| that ran on propane ? (also some newer camping refrigerators that
| are multi-powered use this principle) No moving mechanical parts
| and great efficiency. In fact, many of the 60-80 year old Servels
| are still in use.

I've seen some of the older units used in camping trailers and done a
bit of researching on the Internet. They work well for small volumes,
but look considerably more expensive to produce than what I'm working
on. They also appear to require significantly higher temperatures,
which for solar applications means a concentrating collector (a
parabolic trough or dish) whose performance would be poor if the skies
were hazy or overcast. I like 'em, but they don't appear to offer a
good solution to the whole house or shop cooling problem.

I had an interesting discussion this morning about providing solar
heat for stock tanks (if you're not a farm person, these are
galvanized watering troughs for livestock - a small tank holds
something like 75 gallons). I'd been looking for a way to circulate
hot air _downward_ from a solar heating panel to a heat exchange tube
near the bottom of a stock tank and had been pricing photovoltaic
panels and small blowers - and had just about decided that a workable
combination was just too expensive. This morning I asked my compadre
if he thought the solar pump we've been working on to pump water could
be used to pump air...

He opined that as long as we oriented the check valves so that gravity
would make them "normally closed", we could pump air as easily as we
can pump water. It's one of those cases where I'd knocked myself out
looking for a solution that was right under my nose all along...

This stuff /does/ keep life interesting!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/StirlingProject.html

Morris Dovey wrote:

| Only the thermally-driven engine (two out of the three fluidynes) is
| working at this point. We've scaled it up to use 4" schedule 40 PVC
| pipe - and are only getting about a two-inch "stroke" (should be
| between 15" and 18"), but that's a lot better than the initial 1/8"
| stroke it started with.

I just posted a photo of this kluge to ABPW. When I get time, I'll add
it to the web page at the link below.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Could they not uses a solar panel to heat water with a recirculating
pump powered by solar electric panel? I was thnking someone did this
close to where I worked to power a pond pump. Small backyard pond that
is. Well actually all they did was pump water. They did not need to
warm the water. Maybe have a closed loop with "safe" antifreeze for
the warming media. That might be more complicated than the dry air you
are proposing. Health issues with livestock and their ability to tear
up water troughs when there is no water or if it is frozen.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:17:04 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Charley wrote:
| Morris and Joat,
|
| Have you looked into using an "absorption refrigeration" system to
| make your solar powered air conditioner? A small heat source makes
| them work quite well. Do you remember the old Servel refrigerators
| that ran on propane ? (also some newer camping refrigerators that
| are multi-powered use this principle) No moving mechanical parts
| and great efficiency. In fact, many of the 60-80 year old Servels
| are still in use.

I've seen some of the older units used in camping trailers and done a
bit of researching on the Internet. They work well for small volumes,
but look considerably more expensive to produce than what I'm working
on. They also appear to require significantly higher temperatures,
which for solar applications means a concentrating collector (a
parabolic trough or dish) whose performance would be poor if the skies
were hazy or overcast. I like 'em, but they don't appear to offer a
good solution to the whole house or shop cooling problem.

I had an interesting discussion this morning about providing solar
heat for stock tanks (if you're not a farm person, these are
galvanized watering troughs for livestock - a small tank holds
something like 75 gallons). I'd been looking for a way to circulate
hot air _downward_ from a solar heating panel to a heat exchange tube
near the bottom of a stock tank and had been pricing photovoltaic
panels and small blowers - and had just about decided that a workable
combination was just too expensive. This morning I asked my compadre
if he thought the solar pump we've been working on to pump water could
be used to pump air...

He opined that as long as we oriented the check valves so that gravity
would make them "normally closed", we could pump air as easily as we
can pump water. It's one of those cases where I'd knocked myself out
looking for a solution that was right under my nose all along...

This stuff /does/ keep life interesting!

Jim Behning wrote:
| Could they not uses a solar panel to heat water with a recirculating
| pump powered by solar electric panel?

Yuppers. The problem is that this configuration is too expensive - a
suitable DC motor for the blower and a photovoltaic panel capable of
producing enough current is fairly spendy. My farming prospect nixed
the use of anti-freeze; hence my decision to pump air.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:16:59 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Jim Behning wrote:
| Could they not uses a solar panel to heat water with a recirculating
| pump powered by solar electric panel?

Yuppers. The problem is that this configuration is too expensive - a
suitable DC motor for the blower and a photovoltaic panel capable of
producing enough current is fairly spendy. My farming prospect nixed
the use of anti-freeze; hence my decision to pump air.

I would agree with the farmer based on how destructive my horses can
be around the water trough. Keep us posted on the project as it sounds
interesting. I only suffer a few days where it does not get above
freezing so your project is just interesting to me.

Well next time your in town, stop and say Hi.

Allen
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:32:53 -0400, "Allen Roy"
wrote:


"
SUNY Corning

Please explain. I hope you don't mean Corning,NY

Sure!

Years back, I did some shows there.

One of the memorable trips through Corning that can be shared in a
public forum happened during a "Celebration Weekend".

The Dean's wife decided to have an "interpretive" theatre directly
under the gym where I was hired to work. I can't remember who the
band was, possibly the Ramones, Squeeze, Talking Heads, or The
Bosstones. Anyhow... we had 60-70,000 watts on the PA, including
Servodrive subwoofers, and a packed, enthusiastic house of maybe
5,000. The subwoofer cluster was directly over the "theatre", which I
believe was normally a wrestling room. Throughout the day, I
pointed out the bad location of the "theatre", and the conflicts that
would surely arise to anyone who would listen. No one listens to the
long hairs...

I then spent the entire 90 minute set arguing with the Dean, and then
his porky wife, while trying to mix. We argued over the fact that it
was now SNOWING chunks of suspended ceiling material on the theatre,
the gel frames were falling out of the lights, and the actors couldn't
be heard. Also, the perfectly rectangular room below us resonated
severely ~ 40 Hz, so every time the band held certain notes, the room
would become unbearable. He wanted to stop the show so the 10 people
in the room (including his uber-po'd wife G) below could put on
their 2-hour performance.

I also got a ridiculous speeding ticket in Alfred, and saw a drunken
Sasquatch kick down all the stalls in a hillbilly bar.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------