I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

On Feb 15, 1:08 pm, "mrmjr" wrote:
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

I have not been hospitalized, but remodeling has led me to some pretty
nasty materials. If the lumber from the back of his shed was covered
in some kind of mold (I am thinking exposed to the air, and to water
that didn't drain or dry - you know, the pile of **** lumber that we
are going to use later) that was particularly thick and nasty, I could
see it. I have torn out bathrooms and has molded boards rub across my
arms without piercing the skin that have raised red marks and tiny
blisters.

If there was something in the grain of the wood, he cut it or sanded
it, and inhaled the dust, he could have gotten something nasty.

Bacterial? Maybe. Viral? Probably not. An allergic reaction?
Quite probably.

For more than you can chew on this subject, go to the woodworking rec
and search for spalted wood turning. Spalted wood - wood streaked
with mold and fungus - is highly prized (I force spalt some of mine)
for turning as it gives wood tremendous character. However, many have
claimed all manner of ailments from turning this stuff, and it has
gained national attention from its dangers in the turning community.

When I was too stupid to wear my dust mask, it sure got me. I was
turning spalted pecan. I felt like I had bronchitis for a couple of
days after turning and sanding the piece, all the while inhaling the
dust. Now I but quality throw away dust masks and use them every
time.

Try Googling "spalted wood danger" and you will be surprised at all
the hits.

Robert

Have had some run ins with a few fungus on old boards that made me sneeze
and once with one that looked like leather, and burned to the touch. Guess
they could give you problems if they got in you lungs. Had a lot more
trouble with dust then anything else doing with wood.
"mrmjr" wrote in message
oups.com...
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

On 15 Feb 2007 11:08:22 -0800, "mrmjr"
wrote:

I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?


Possibly mold, but the reason that wood is the preferred material for
food cutting boards (rather than the various plastics that have shown
up) is that bacteria doesn't like it. It is not a fertile material
for the propogation of bacteria or viruses, so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

mrmjr wrote:
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

Guillain-Barré Syndrome

On Feb 15, 2:54 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Possibly mold, but the reason that wood is the preferred material for
food cutting boards (rather than the various plastics that have shown
up) is that bacteria doesn't like it. It is not a fertile material
for the propogation of bacteria or viruses, so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Well, I guess you haven't been in an leaky shower for a while. Or
seen an old woodpile, or been behind he old timer's house that has
wood he was saving for "that project" for many years. I have loaded
wood into dumpsters that was so decayed that it was swept up and
shoveled into a wheel barrow first.

If bacteria and fungii didn't break down wood, why does it decay?
What causes it to rot? Why do I have a gold colored mold on one side
and white/black mold/fungus on the other side of a large log I have
been too lazy to split for a few years?

Wood will easily sustain mold and fungus. Properly maintained wood
will not. Some woods will rot and attract fungus more than others
(this is why spalted oak is rare compared to spalted maple).

So I think, personally, that while "old wood" could mean a lot of
things to a lot of different people, if it has been improperly stored
or cared for it could easily have mold and fungus growing on it.

OP wasn't talking about new lumberyard material.

Robert

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Could well not be.

A couple of years ago I had a severe bacterial lung infection.

Doc's were trying to blame it on woodworking until a lab technician happened
to ask if I'd cleaned out a barbeque pit lately. Sure enough, three days
before the symptoms hit me, I had cleaned out two barbeque pits.

Lab technician said that if they've just asked him earlier, he could have
told them how common it was to come down with a bacterial lung infection
after cleaning a barbeque pit.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

In article .com, " wrote:
On Feb 15, 2:54 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Possibly mold, but the reason that wood is the preferred material for
food cutting boards (rather than the various plastics that have shown
up) is that bacteria doesn't like it. It is not a fertile material
for the propogation of bacteria or viruses, so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Well, I guess you haven't been in an leaky shower for a while. Or
seen an old woodpile, or been behind he old timer's house that has
wood he was saving for "that project" for many years. I have loaded
wood into dumpsters that was so decayed that it was swept up and
shoveled into a wheel barrow first.

If bacteria and fungii didn't break down wood, why does it decay?

He didn't say "bacteria and fungi," he said "bacteria and viruses."

What causes it to rot?

Fungi.

Why do I have a gold colored mold on one side
and white/black mold/fungus on the other side of a large log I have
been too lazy to split for a few years?

Because damp wood readily supports the growth of fungi.

Wood will easily sustain mold and fungus. Properly maintained wood
will not. Some woods will rot and attract fungus more than others
(this is why spalted oak is rare compared to spalted maple).

So I think, personally, that while "old wood" could mean a lot of
things to a lot of different people, if it has been improperly stored
or cared for it could easily have mold and fungus growing on it.

Certainly it could. But the discussion concerned bacteria and viruses.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On 15 Feb 2007 11:08:22 -0800, "mrmjr"
wrote:


Possibly mold, but the reason that wood is the preferred material for
food cutting boards (rather than the various plastics that have shown
up) is that bacteria doesn't like it. It is not a fertile material
for the propogation of bacteria or viruses, so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Wood is a preferred material for a cutting board if you clean it after use.
Toss a cutting board out in the yard for a few months and see if your
statement still rings true.

"mrmjr" wrote in message
oups.com...
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?


Never, I have never seen a Tool Section in Wal-Mart.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Could well not be.

A couple of years ago I had a severe bacterial lung infection.

Doc's were trying to blame it on woodworking until a lab technician
happened
to ask if I'd cleaned out a barbeque pit lately. Sure enough, three days
before the symptoms hit me, I had cleaned out two barbeque pits.

Lab technician said that if they've just asked him earlier, he could have
told them how common it was to come down with a bacterial lung infection
after cleaning a barbeque pit.


As the body musters itself to attack the mold or the toxins they
manufacture, it often becomes more vulnerable to the spread of bacteria it
otherwise would have an easy time controlling.

In the case of ashes, I suspect a large dose of alkalosis might have been
the factor.

Note that winter, with its low indoor relative humidity produces more lung
infections. Keep your parents' homes humidified, they'll breathe better and
live longer. As long as you don't get it humid enough to foster molds....

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:05:47 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On 15 Feb 2007 11:08:22 -0800, "mrmjr"
wrote:


Possibly mold, but the reason that wood is the preferred material for
food cutting boards (rather than the various plastics that have shown
up) is that bacteria doesn't like it. It is not a fertile material
for the propogation of bacteria or viruses, so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Wood is a preferred material for a cutting board if you clean it after use.
Toss a cutting board out in the yard for a few months and see if your
statement still rings true.



Left long enough fungi and insects will cause it to decay. I still
don't think it will be harmful to humans from contact alone. The
point I was making is that wood kept off the ground is not a good
propogation site for bacteria.

Not a biologist, I simply read several university studies on cutting
board materials and their relative safety from bacteria when I was
making a few cutting boards. I thought the man made materials would
be better. I was wrong based on what I read.

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:07:58 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"mrmjr" wrote in message
roups.com...
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?


Never, I have never seen a Tool Section in Wal-Mart.

Good point.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
Left long enough fungi and insects will cause it to decay. I still
don't think it will be harmful to humans from contact alone. The
point I was making is that wood kept off the ground is not a good
propogation site for bacteria.

Not a biologist, I simply read several university studies on cutting
board materials and their relative safety from bacteria when I was
making a few cutting boards. I thought the man made materials would
be better. I was wrong based on what I read.


In the southern states many insurances companies are opting out coverage of
mold and mildew on home owners insurance. That stuff lives on the wood
inside walls in damp areas like bathrooms. It costs a fortune to remediate.

They do have one, at least around here. It has a FEW home owner type
drills and power saws and some low end hand tools. You can pick up same
fair deals once in a Blue Moon. K-Mart has a better selection most of the
time even if it is crapsman stuff. I think the low end tools people buy may
have a lot to do with the mystery of how tradesmen and artisians do such
wonderful work
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:07:58 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"mrmjr" wrote in message
groups.com...
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?


Never, I have never seen a Tool Section in Wal-Mart.

Good point.

"Swingman" wrote

A couple of years ago I had a severe bacterial lung infection.

Doc's were trying to blame it on woodworking until a lab technician
happened
to ask if I'd cleaned out a barbeque pit lately. Sure enough, three days
before the symptoms hit me, I had cleaned out two barbeque pits.

Lab technician said that if they've just asked him earlier, he could have
told them how common it was to come down with a bacterial lung infection
after cleaning a barbeque pit.


Two comments;

Isn't just like a doc (or the MIL) to blame woodworking for anything that
ails ya??

I am going to wear a super gas mask/filter when I clean out the barbecue
from now on! Maybe even a full fledged hazmat suit.

On Feb 15, 4:56 pm, Frank Boettcher

Not a biologist, I simply read several university studies on cutting
board materials and their relative safety from bacteria when I was
making a few cutting boards. I thought the man made materials would
be better. I was wrong based on what I read.-

No Frank, you were NOT wrong in context of cutting boards. I am an
avid cook and have not only read the same things you have, but
followed the debates over the years. I think it was proven to just
about everyone's satisfaction that wooden cutting boards are even more
safe than plastic in the home environment.

And I agree with you that wood kept off the ground is not a good site
for bacterial growth. With those qualifiers, I agree with your
original response.

Perhaps I should have been a little more careful in my original
response, too. I didn't mean to offend.

Robert

Lee Michaels wrote:

I am going to wear a super gas mask/filter when I clean out the
barbecue
from now on! Maybe even a full fledged hazmat suit.

OK, I'll bite.

How do you clean your barbecue?

I fire up a 500,000 BTU propane torch and burn mine clean.

Quick, fast, cheap, and neat.

Lew

"mrmjr" wrote in message
oups.com...
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?


Some guy...had a friend...that was hospitalized from an infection and the
friend of the guy said that it was due to old lumber.

I got some problems with this kind of heresy. Seems to me they would have
to culture the bugs that were infecting the guy and then trace this to the
source in order to make the connection.

Seems to me the only time this kind of thing happens is when there is a
great public health threat, and that is usually after people start dropping
dead from some strange infection.

I can only think of several cases like the mouse turd dust, Sars, or the
Ebola virus where the CDC sends out men in white coveralls and fancy
respirators to track down the vector of something nasty.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:12:38 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
Left long enough fungi and insects will cause it to decay. I still
don't think it will be harmful to humans from contact alone. The
point I was making is that wood kept off the ground is not a good
propogation site for bacteria.

Not a biologist, I simply read several university studies on cutting
board materials and their relative safety from bacteria when I was
making a few cutting boards. I thought the man made materials would
be better. I was wrong based on what I read.


In the southern states many insurances companies are opting out coverage of
mold and mildew on home owners insurance. That stuff lives on the wood
inside walls in damp areas like bathrooms. It costs a fortune to remediate.



Well that's better than opting out of all coverage. State Farm just
announced that, because of the untenable legal environment in
Mississippi, they will write no new policies. Started out just no
policies south of Interstate 10, but as of two days ago, statewide.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...

Well that's better than opting out of all coverage. State Farm just
announced that, because of the untenable legal environment in
Mississippi, they will write no new policies. Started out just no
policies south of Interstate 10, but as of two days ago, statewide.

IMHO insurance companies should not be able to pick and choose their areas
of coverage and change in a moments notice. We had the same happen here in
2001 when Houston flooded.
The insurance companies love to lobby to make some insurance mandatory but
other insurance unavailable if it does not suit them.
Unlike most companies, it is extremely rare for an insurance company to not
show a yearly profit.

Well said sir!

Actually, you both may well be correct in your original assertions. The
real distinction may be between what lives within the wood or directly on
its surface and what lives on the molds, mildews, dust, dirt, and critter
droppings that can accumulate on long-stored or long-installed wood objects.

David Merrill (not a biologist either)


wrote in message
oups.com...

No Frank, you were NOT wrong in context of cutting boards. I am an
avid cook and have not only read the same things you have, but
followed the debates over the years. I think it was proven to just
about everyone's satisfaction that wooden cutting boards are even more
safe than plastic in the home environment.

And I agree with you that wood kept off the ground is not a good site
for bacterial growth. With those qualifiers, I agree with your
original response.

Perhaps I should have been a little more careful in my original
response, too. I didn't mean to offend.

Robert

On 15 Feb 2007 20:57:46 -0800, "
wrote:

On Feb 15, 4:56 pm, Frank Boettcher

Not a biologist, I simply read several university studies on cutting
board materials and their relative safety from bacteria when I was
making a few cutting boards. I thought the man made materials would
be better. I was wrong based on what I read.-

No Frank, you were NOT wrong in context of cutting boards. I am an
avid cook and have not only read the same things you have, but
followed the debates over the years. I think it was proven to just
about everyone's satisfaction that wooden cutting boards are even more
safe than plastic in the home environment.

And I agree with you that wood kept off the ground is not a good site
for bacterial growth. With those qualifiers, I agree with your
original response.

Perhaps I should have been a little more careful in my original
response, too. I didn't mean to offend.

Robert


No offense taken

Frank

Frank Boettcher wrote in
:

snip

In the southern states many insurances companies are opting out
coverage of mold and mildew on home owners insurance. That stuff
lives on the wood inside walls in damp areas like bathrooms. It costs
a fortune to remediate.



Well that's better than opting out of all coverage. State Farm just
announced that, because of the untenable legal environment in
Mississippi, they will write no new policies. Started out just no
policies south of Interstate 10, but as of two days ago, statewide.

There's a couple of thoughts on that.

Usually, it's a means of applying political pressure on certain
regulatory and legal bodies to get certain measures passed.

It irritates their policy holders, particularly newer ones. It really
irritates their agents, particularly the newer ones, who make much of
their income by selling policies.

They are a mutual company, owned, pretty much, by their policy holders.
If they cannot balance the risks, financially, across their base, they
have to adjust the base. Sometimes, not adding new policies is the way
they do it. They don't like it, either.

My dad was a State Farm Agent for 35 years. I've never been one, but
I've been their customer for longer than that.

Things will settle out. The Gulf Coast still is a long ways from
settled from the storms, and will be for a while. State Farm will be
back in the new policy game at some time, is my guess. They are in and
out in California, too.

8 years ago, I had to replace my wood shake roof, or find a new
insurance company. I'd only been their customer for 30 years or so at
that point. Stuff happens.

Patriarch

On Feb 15, 12:08 pm, "mrmjr" wrote:
I ran into a guy today at Wal-Mart in the tool section that told me
about his friend that had been hospitalized from either a bacterial
infection or a viral infection he got from using some old lumber in
the back of his shed. I'm still a novice, but Wow! This seems a bit
far fetched. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

Not far feched at all if it wasn't the wood, but what was on it

one possiblity is Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hanta/hps/

Idaho had an outbreak about 15 years ago, the people who got sick
where cleaning out a shed and an other one was cleaing out a basement
if the boards have been sitting in a shed, the mice come in and poop
and pee and there you go

Just homeowners policies are stopped, they will still take your money
for auto and life and what ever else they write policies for. Otherwise
every State Farm agent in Mississippi would be out of a job, except for
handling current policies.


Frank Boettcher wrote:

Well that's better than opting out of all coverage. State Farm just
announced that, because of the untenable legal environment in
Mississippi, they will write no new policies. Started out just no
policies south of Interstate 10, but as of two days ago, statewide.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:04:01 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote in
:

snip

In the southern states many insurances companies are opting out
coverage of mold and mildew on home owners insurance. That stuff
lives on the wood inside walls in damp areas like bathrooms. It costs
a fortune to remediate.



Well that's better than opting out of all coverage. State Farm just
announced that, because of the untenable legal environment in
Mississippi, they will write no new policies. Started out just no
policies south of Interstate 10, but as of two days ago, statewide.

There's a couple of thoughts on that.

Usually, it's a means of applying political pressure on certain
regulatory and legal bodies to get certain measures passed.

In this case it is a State Attorney General, a U. S. Senator, A U. S.
district Representative trying to make political hay and "save" the
population. They are aligned with a very well known and successful
class action attorney. And we know whats in it for him.

There has already been one case ruled upon and in addition to settling
the claim, a two million dollar punitive award was given. Multiply
that by 10,000 and you begin to see the problem.

Each year I get a renewal notice on my policy and there is separate
page in the renewal package with a message in very large, bold face
type. It simply states that "your property is not covered from
damages due to rising water from any source no matter the nature and
cause of the rising water. Because of your location you are not
required to have federally subsidized flood insurance but it is
available if you feel you need it. The procedure for obtaining this
flood insurance is.......You should consider this risk and act
appropriately"

I don't have state farm HO but assume all insurers send out this
boilerplate message.

The rising water did the damage. The cases are based on the fact that
the "wind drove the water in" , or the damage was done before the
water got there.

Katrina was a tragedy of epic proportions. Many of my friends and
relatives were impacted as was I in a minor way (lost about $5K in
woodworking supplies and machinery that were remotely stored and not
covered because of the rising water. But I can assure you the answer
is not to litigate private companies out of the state which will only
limit competition and raise rates or deductibles that would make the
policy meaninless.

Frank

It irritates their policy holders, particularly newer ones. It really
irritates their agents, particularly the newer ones, who make much of
their income by selling policies.

They are a mutual company, owned, pretty much, by their policy holders.
If they cannot balance the risks, financially, across their base, they
have to adjust the base. Sometimes, not adding new policies is the way
they do it. They don't like it, either.

My dad was a State Farm Agent for 35 years. I've never been one, but
I've been their customer for longer than that.

Things will settle out. The Gulf Coast still is a long ways from
settled from the storms, and will be for a while. State Farm will be
back in the new policy game at some time, is my guess. They are in and
out in California, too.

8 years ago, I had to replace my wood shake roof, or find a new
insurance company. I'd only been their customer for 30 years or so at
that point. Stuff happens.

Patriarch

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:56:16 -0600, Frank Boettcher
wrote:


Left long enough fungi and insects will cause it to decay. I still
don't think it will be harmful to humans from contact alone. The
point I was making is that wood kept off the ground is not a good
propogation site for bacteria.

That may be true of wood kept off the ground, but that's not always
the way it is stored. Can't know unless you see the particular case
in point, and a guy buying tools at Walmart is unlikely to be a
high-end craftsman who has put a lot of time into figuring out his
wood storage.

Not a biologist, I simply read several university studies on cutting
board materials and their relative safety from bacteria when I was
making a few cutting boards. I thought the man made materials would
be better. I was wrong based on what I read.

There are acids in the wood that kill bacteria, as I understand it.
However, those woods are properly dried, stored indoors and cleaned
after use. It's not terribly farfetched to think that something like
a pile of maple planks left outdoors could support bacteria if they're
stacked face to face and an animal uses them as a toilet or sleeps on
them. There are sugars in the sap for the bacteria to consume, and
keeping the wood closely stacked can keep the outdoor air from those
faces.

On Feb 15, 4:56 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .com, " wrote:

On Feb 15, 2:54 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote:

Possibly mold, but the reason that wood is the preferred material for
food cutting boards (rather than the various plastics that have shown
up) is that bacteria doesn't like it. It is not a fertile material
for the propogation of bacteria or viruses, so it seems unlikely that
is the source of the problem.

Well, I guess you haven't been in an leaky shower for a while. Or
seen an old woodpile, or been behind he old timer's house that has
wood he was saving for "that project" for many years. I have loaded
wood into dumpsters that was so decayed that it was swept up and
shoveled into a wheel barrow first.

If bacteria and fungii didn't break down wood, why does it decay?

He didn't say "bacteria and fungi," he said "bacteria and viruses."

What causes it to rot?

Fungi.

Why do I have a gold colored mold on one side
and white/black mold/fungus on the other side of a large log I have
been too lazy to split for a few years?

Because damp wood readily supports the growth of fungi.



Wood will easily sustain mold and fungus. Properly maintained wood
will not. Some woods will rot and attract fungus more than others
(this is why spalted oak is rare compared to spalted maple).

So I think, personally, that while "old wood" could mean a lot of
things to a lot of different people, if it has been improperly stored
or cared for it could easily have mold and fungus growing on it.

Certainly it could. But the discussion concerned bacteria and viruses.

Also, unless his friend is one of HG Wells' Martians,
the bacteria associated with putrefaction (rot) are
unlikely to make him sick.

Bodies left unburied in the aftermath of a hurricane
or tsunami are gross, but not a health hazard. If
the people were not sick when they died, they
can't spread disease to the living.

Disease causing microbes require a living
host. So even when the victim succumbed
to an infectious or contagious disease, by
the time the body starts to rot, disease causing
microbes within it are likely to be long-gone.

There are exceptions like anthrax, rabies,
and others which can survive for years in
a dormant state--usually after voiding the
host, but most die within hours of the host.

You can get rabies from breathing the dust
coming off of old wood IF it has bat**** on
it and the bats were rabid. You might
be able to get hantavirus from rodent
urine on it.

I'll agree with the others in this thread that the
most likely culprit is a toxic, allergic, or auto-
immune reaction to mold or fungus in the wood.

It is pretty important to avoid breathing dust,
but especially dust contaminated with mold or
fungus, regardless of the source.

--

FF

Just to add a little fuel to the fire; I ran into an older gentleman
(who asked me not to mention his name over the internet) over the
weekend at the Home Depot who has retired from both the lumber
industry and the woodworking industry. He said that this debate is
much, much older than I thought. He told me that he's known of many
similar instances of what I had told him and everyone in this
newsgroup. He said that the symptoms are usually passed off as
another type of problem.

He went on to say that supposedly the fungi that grow on the wood
won't malignantly seek us out to cause problems but their spore when
stirred up can get into the respiratory system and open us up for
other infections. Then to the contrary, he added that he could
remember a small bit of lumber that sat in an old drying shed that had
no fungi or mold or anything as he said on it and it still
decomposed. He said that this in particular led him to believe there
may be something we were not aware of that made wood (cut wood I
suppose) its home and was perhaps the main contributor to
decomposition. He added that it may actually be an infectious agent
or have infectious properties, but being unknown it was simply passed
off as something else.

His reasoning behind this was he had known people who told him that
before coming to work in these industries had no known allergies or
chronic illnesses, but after exposure to the wood (even those not
around the machines where sawdust was generated; I asked) would
develope chronic problems that were passed off as allergies, the flu,
bronchitis or similar by doctors. He could even recall customers that
frequented the yard he worked in complaining that they had not had
problems before entering construction or other jobs that required
working with lumber or wood. The people he referred to that wasn't
around sawdust worked in an area of the yard he called the "pick yard"
or "picking area" (I can't exactly remember which). Now I'm not
really sure what that is, but he said it was far away from the
machines that did the cutting.

He then told me of a Doctor he thought was out of Australia or maybe
it was New Zealand that had discovered a microbe (for lack of actual
terminology) or something that was infectious and smaller than a
virus. Strangely it seemed I thought I could remember seeing
something on television some time ago about this very Doctor, but had
not payed that much attention to it. It scared me pretty good and
with this all in mind, I have to wonder. What do I need to do to take
care of my lumber and myself? I bet I won't do any more cutting or
woodworking without one of those filtered masks on.

On Feb 19, 12:43 pm, "mrmjr" wrote:
Just to add a little fuel to the fire; I ran into an older gentleman
(who asked me not to mention his name over the internet) over the
weekend at the Home Depot who has retired from both the lumber
industry and the woodworking industry. He said that this debate is
much, much older than I thought. He told me that he's known of many
similar instances of what I had told him and everyone in this
newsgroup. He said that the symptoms are usually passed off as
another type of problem.

He went on to say that supposedly the fungi that grow on the wood
won't malignantly seek us out to cause problems but their spore when
stirred up can get into the respiratory system and open us up for
other infections. Then to the contrary, he added that he could
remember a small bit of lumber that sat in an old drying shed that had
no fungi or mold or anything as he said on it and it still
decomposed. He said that this in particular led him to believe there
may be something we were not aware of that made wood (cut wood I
suppose) its home and was perhaps the main contributor to
decomposition.

Some woods like elm rot so fast that they are notoriously difficult
to
air-dry. OTOH Elm is also notorious for checking and warping when
it is kiln dried. So I wonder what species that was.

He added that it may actually be an infectious agent
or have infectious properties, but being unknown it was simply passed
off as something else.

While it is commonplace (and probably on balance, a good thing)
for people to associate disease with rot and filth, it would be
remarkable if the same organism that rots wood, infected
humans. Those are just two wildly different 'lifestyles'. But
fungi (which are usually what do rot wood) are well know to
cause allergic reactions.


His reasoning behind this was he had known people who told him that
before coming to work in these industries had no known allergies or
chronic illnesses, but after exposure to the wood (even those not
around the machines where sawdust was generated; I asked) would
develope chronic problems that were passed off as allergies, the flu,
bronchitis or similar by doctors. He could even recall customers that
frequented the yard he worked in complaining that they had not had
problems before entering construction or other jobs that required
working with lumber or wood. The people he referred to that wasn't
around sawdust worked in an area of the yard he called the "pick yard"
or "picking area" (I can't exactly remember which). Now I'm not
really sure what that is, but he said it was far away from the
machines that did the cutting.

Several years ago I bought 300 bf of eastern Aromatic red cedar
and drove it home in my van, a trip of about 2 hours or so. I had
a roe throat the next day, and being aware of cedar's toxic properties
I wore a respirator with activated carbon filter the next day when
I unloaded the van. Several weeks later I moved the stack without
wearing a respirator and had the sore throat again. A lot of woods
are toxic and stimulate allergic reactions. You don't need heavy
exposure to the dust develop those problems, long term low-level
exposure can do it too.


He then told me of a Doctor he thought was out of Australia or maybe
it was New Zealand that had discovered a microbe (for lack of actual
terminology) or something that was infectious and smaller than a
virus. Strangely it seemed I thought I could remember seeing
something on television some time ago about this very Doctor, but had
not payed that much attention to it. It scared me pretty good and
with this all in mind, I have to wonder. What do I need to do to take
care of my lumber and myself? I bet I won't do any more cutting or
woodworking without one of those filtered masks on.

One such (maybe the only sort) of infectious agent smaller
than a virus is a "proteinaceous infectious particles" (prion).

Prions are thought to be proteins, not having any nucleic, material
at all. No DNA, no RNA, just a bare protein. They use the victim's
RNA or DNA to reproduce themselves and one popular hypothesis
is that they originate as fragments broken form DNA or RNA. It
is possible that prions are the causative agent in other
neurodegenerative
illnesses without current known causes.

The most notorious of these is the infections agent for "mad cow'
disease, which is believed to be the same prion that causes
an handful of previously, separately identified illnesses in humans
and animals (scapies, Kuru, Creutzfeld-Jacob Disease). Because
prions are protein, cooking does not render contaminated food safe
--unless you cook it to the point where all the proteins are destroyed
by which point there isn't much nutritional value left in the food.

From my layman's perspective it seems unlikely that a plant
protein found in wood would be compatible with human DNA
or RNA, but wood can also be contaminated with proteins
left behind by animals, various bugs, mites etc. Then again,
supposedly something close to 50% of human DNA is the same
as found in a bean plant.

A fair number of people don't wear masks because they've "never
had a problem". The best way to keep on "not having a problem"
is to wear a mask.

--

FF

This goes out to everyone that has replied and may yet still reply to
my inquiry. A BIG, BIG THANKS. I have to admit I wasn't sure I'd get
a reply and to get one of this magnitude with such great input has
really been appreciated. So far, I've learned quite a bit from you
all. I guess when it comes to personal safety, it's ok to be a little
selfish. I'll be wearing a mask...everytime.