"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..
Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).
Cheers,
cc



Hiya Folks,
Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed table
relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe and
without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info. If
nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The jointer
needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of tolerances. And, I
need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer to remove the blade
marks.
Cheers.
cc

Bill in Detroit wrote:
: Andrew Barss wrote:

: Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
: parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
: other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
: reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give
: you anything comparable.
:
: -- Andy Barss

: A straight edge is not the same as a parallel edge.


Indeed it isn't.


All I was saying is that comparing (a) jointing an edge of a board
with a jointer (against the reference bed of the jointer) isn't
at all similar to freehand ripping on a tablesaw (i..e without the fence).

You can make a
: straight edge quite easily with only a plane. You can even make a
: straight edge on two opposite sides of the same board. But getting them
: straight AND parallel is an altogether different proposition. Do the
: geometry ... without referencing the opposite edge, how will you know if
: the two edges are parallel?

: There IS a way ... but the jointer can't use it.


As I clearly stated in my original post, I agree that the jointer is not the
proper tool to use to create parallel edges.


-- Andy Barss

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..

Hiya Folks,
Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed
table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe
and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info.
If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The
jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of
tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer
to remove the blade marks.

Well, as close as possible, within wood tolerances. Though I'm still
puzzled how you got the beginning of a board, as presented, narrower than
the end which followed. That's characteristic of table droop, not high
outfeed.

What's most interesting about this thread is the number of people who don't
understand how a jointer works. Hopefully you're not one of them now,
having learned that the jointer removes a measured amount of stock
determined by the exposure of the knives from a board rested on the table
for best average straightness. If you have parallel edges, they will remain
parallel if you use your properly adjusted jointer to clip the edges.
Andrew seems to have set up his own straw man, but he's right in saying that
you don't _make_ stock parallel with a jointer normally. Takes scribing and
working it as the big plane it is to do that.

But, if your tablesaw produces a parallel but slightly fuzzy edge because
you've gone too long between sharpenings, or you're feeding too fast and it
vibrates, or you tuck it a bit into the side as you transition to the
push-stick, &cetera ... you can clean it up with a quick pass on the jointer
prior to gluing. Some of us are so lazy in the other areas we allow for one
pass in our original rip. Or three, with lower grade lumber where we might
release tension and get a bow in the resulting piece. Thing is to be smart
enough to sight it and repair it at the jointer. Betting ripping misfeeds
and less-than-great lumber are the reasons for people's stance against
jointers. Had they sighted after the rip, they might have other opinions.

"George" wrote in message

But, apparently, not the obvious, which is that a parallel edge produced
by
ripping against a _jointer-straightened_ edge, not the straw man, will
remain parallel if a measured amount is removed along one edge by the
jointer.

LOL! Quite different from your earlier, blanket statement, but close enough
for some purposes ... just like the results often obtained from using a
jointer for other than it's primary purpose.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

Leon wrote:

: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message
: ...
: Leon wrote:
: : A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece
: being
: : processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence
: that
: : would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?
:
: Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
: parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
: other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
: reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't
: give
: you anything comparable.
:
: -- Andy Bars


: With each pass of the board across the jointer knives which are banging
: against the board that they are cutting, the reference,"you", cannot
: provide absolute resistance like a TS fence or thickness planer base. There
: is too much give in your hands and skin to insure a perfectly straight path
: across the knives. The path may seem smooth and controlled however the
: resulting taper is proof that some give in your hold is the culprit. The
: shallower the cut the longer it takes for the taper to "visually" appear.

Pleae reread what I said, and/or the followup I posted. I am *agreeing with you*
that a jointer isn't able to give parallel edges.

But you were comparing (a) trying to get a parallel edge
on a board using a jointer to (b) trying to do the same
thing on a TS without a fence.


As I said, it's not a very good analogy.

-- Andy Barss

"Mike Marlow" writes:


"B A R R Y" wrote in message
news
Stoutman wrote:

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??


Possibly.

There is no parallel reference on a jointer. Jointers make a face flat,
and/or one face an exact angle to another, based on the setting of the
fence.

Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. G


I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it to
produce a piece that is tapered?

What is it about a jointer that would cause it to produce a piece that
is NOT tapered?

Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result.

Well, that depends on what you are starting with. If the board already
has straight and parallel faces, then a "properly set up" jointer in the
hands of a good operator probably won't add a taper, if you're just making
a single shallow pass. That is what people that "rip to width, clean up on
jointer" rely on.

When you're starting with a cupped/twisted/bowed board and want to
flatten both sides, the chances that the two flattened faces will end up
parallel is pretty remote. That's why people flatten one side on the
jointer, then dimension the lumber on a planer.

...but I'm sure you agree, and the current argument is about the "rip
to width, clean up on jointer" process. (Some of the context has been lost
by editing.) So why bring in the flattening process? Because I'm sure
you'll also agree that the process of flattening will have rather
different results depending on how the operator applies pressure,
particularly in the transfer of weight from the infeed side to the outfeed
side. Especially in the beginning stages when there is still lots of curve
in the board - if you push one way to start cleaning up one part of the
board, you'll get a different result from what you'd get if you started
with pressure on a different point. That's where skill comes in.

...so I would argue (perhaps not strongly) that even when edge jointing
the saw-cut face, an operator that doesn't shift and balance pressure
between the infeed and outfeed sides runs the possibility of not making an
even cut, because there is nothing intrinsic in the design of the jointer
to prevent such uneven cutting.

...but I'd agree that this effect would be very small on a single,
shallow pass. And I think you'd probably agree that an unskilled operator
that takes several passes to both smooth the saw cut and reduce the board
width runs a risk of accumulating single unnoticable tapers into a
multi-pass noticable taper, because the jointer isn't going to do anything
to prevent it.

Do you expect
your router to leave a tapered piece? What's the difference between what
the router is doing and what the jointer is doing? I think you've been
settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch?

No, just disagreeing on what to have for a snack.

"George" writes:


"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...

Hiya Folks,
Well I think I got it working. I adjusted the height of the outfeed
table relative to the blades and was able to get it cutting without snipe
and without creating that taper I was getting. Thanks much for the info.
If nothing else, it was a colorful thread! What I learned: The
jointer needs to be set up to within a gnat's ass in the way of
tolerances. And, I need to buy a better blade. I too use the jointer
to remove the blade marks.

Well, as close as possible, within wood tolerances. Though I'm still
puzzled how you got the beginning of a board, as presented, narrower than
the end which followed. That's characteristic of table droop, not high
outfeed.

I can think of two possibilities:

1) the board is bowed (not straight, end-to-end), and he's holding the
board with the ends up and the middle down (as opposed to ends down and
middle up), and he's starting the cutting with pressure on the front of
the board, so the front edge is cut in the first pass. The tail of the
board is then well above the knifes when it gets there, on the first pass.
Subsequent passes keep cutting at the front, and eventually cut at the
back as the surface flattens, but the end result is a flat face with a
thin edge at the front (cut on every pass) and a thick one at the back
(only cut on last pass). Put pressure on the back first, and the opposite
occurs. You need to start with pressure in the middle, not the ends - or
even better, turn the board over so it sits on the two ends and they get
knocked off together. This is "technique". The less flat the board, the
more important that the technique be good.

2) something is a bit loose in the jointer tables. With no pressure on
them, everything seems to line up just fine - it is "properly set up". As
soon as pressure is placed on the infeed or outfeed table, however, it
droops. Thus, the droop or misalignment is there when cutting, but not
apparent when measured during setup.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the
blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for
this task.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com


No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for
anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another
"confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that respect.
I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few minutes
setting the outfeed table and blades.
Cheers,
cc




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Cubby ... find a machinist who is willing to show you how. The whole
thing takes just moments. The indicator is used for a single series of
measurements with the understanding that you will need to do the same 3
second setup each time you start over.

I could show you how in 5 minutes and show you WAAAY mor than you will
ever need to know in 30. But I doubt if I can write anything up here
that will make much sense.

Understand that 1) the indicator must be firmly attached to a stable
base. 2) this stable base is resting on / sliding over the reference
plane (ie; on a jointer, one of the tables) 3) the surface being
adjusted will end up parallel to that plane. 4) the adjustements to be
made will consist of something called 'successive approximation' ...
even if you make the measurements under laboratory conditions, there
will always be measureable error left. If you can no longer measure the
error, great. But a better test instrument could. 5) the smallest level
of error you can reliably count on is 1/2 of 1 division on the dial.
That is, a dial indictaor marked in .001" increments can be relied on to
within .0005" +- .00025" To put this in perspective: at .003" you cannot
see wich of two blocks is the larger. Below .001" it is highly unlikely
that you can feel the difference between them.

All of which is to say ... don't waste time trying for more accuracy and
precision than you need. If you can reliably make cuts to within 1/64"
of where you intended them, you are a better man than I am and far
better than many who nonetheless do outstanding work.

An indicator is an excellent way to set a blade. Mark my words. But it
is not the only way to skin that particular cat.

Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com


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"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...


As I said, it's not a very good analogy.

What woud be a better analogy?

I'm not Leon but am an experienced plane user. It works much the same way as
a jointer and it, like the jointer will not in any way ensure that the
planed side is parallel to the other side.

"George" wrote in message
t...

So just how does a plane work, Leon?

Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
from saw to glue up.
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at
my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
operation.

"CW" wrote in message
k.net...
Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
from saw to glue up.
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw
at
my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
operation.



Ok. So what is your point?

I think it is either that:
A) I am a ****ty craftsman
B) I have higher standards for glue-ups.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:15:24 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:



"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Your saw is way ahead of my Craftsman direct drive and, with it, I can go
from saw to glue up.
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw
at
my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
operation.



Ok. So what is your point?

I think it is either that:
A) I am a ****ty craftsman
B) I have higher standards for glue-ups.

For a panel glue-up it doesn't reallly matter if the boards have a
little taper. Glue it up oversize and rip it parallel after. That's
the only time I run the second edge over the jointer.


-Leuf

Leon wrote:

: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message
: ...
:

: As I said, it's not a very good analogy.

: What woud be a better analogy?


I'm not sure. What makes the TS special compared to a jointer (or
planer, or router with a straight bit) is that the blade extends
back several inches from where it cuts, and it doesn't have a reference
straightedge without the fence.

I guess the best I can think of is ripping on a TS (or a bandsaw)
with the fence in place, but with the waste side running along the fence.
So, you have aboard with one straight edge (call it A), a
rough edge B to be trimmed, and you run B along the fence.
The resulting trimmed edge C isn't going to necessarily be
parallel to A.



Where things get dodgy (or my thinking about 'em does) is
when you have A and B already parallel -- trimming it with B running
along the fence WILL give you a new edge C which is parallel to A.
Jointer is supposed to go the same way (i.e. the "rip on a TS to width
plus a hair, trim hair with jointer" approach). But I have a gutt
feeling it won't be necessarily parallel to A unless the operator
has impeccable technique.


-- Andy Barss

CW wrote:
: I'm not Leon but am an experienced plane user. It works much the same way as
: a jointer and it, like the jointer will not in any way ensure that the
: planed side is parallel to the other side.

Yup.


The jointer plane actually works slightly differently, in that the sole
of the plane before and behind the mouth are coplanar (unlike the
beds of a powered jointer, where the infeed table is slightly lower
than the outfeed), and the blade protrudes down below both (unlike
a jointer, where the blades are even with the outfeed table).


This ought to produce diffrent results, I would think, but in practice
one can joint a pretty straight edge with a plane. I've never been sure
of exactly why!

-- Andy Barss

"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:


: What woud be a better analogy?


I'm not sure. What makes the TS special compared to a jointer (or
planer, or router with a straight bit) is that the blade extends
back several inches from where it cuts, and it doesn't have a reference
straightedge without the fence.

I guess the best I can think of is ripping on a TS (or a bandsaw)
with the fence in place, but with the waste side running along the fence.
So, you have aboard with one straight edge (call it A), a
rough edge B to be trimmed, and you run B along the fence.
The resulting trimmed edge C isn't going to necessarily be
parallel to A.



Where things get dodgy (or my thinking about 'em does) is
when you have A and B already parallel -- trimming it with B running
along the fence WILL give you a new edge C which is parallel to A.
Jointer is supposed to go the same way (i.e. the "rip on a TS to width
plus a hair, trim hair with jointer" approach). But I have a gutt
feeling it won't be necessarily parallel to A unless the operator
has impeccable technique.


OK, I agree, you probably have a better analogy here. At least closer
anyway ;~)

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...

A) I am a ****ty craftsman

If you say so.

B) I have higher standards for glue-ups.

I doubt it.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:42:59 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.

Not on mine.

Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

Keep practicing.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:19:17 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:


All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.

Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
check.

I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than
why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I
guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. g

Stoutman,

I don't know why this is irritating me tonight, but it seems like
you're overlooking some pretty important things again.

Things have to be done correctly, in the correct order, with the
proper tools. It's your shop, and I'm glad you're happy with it- but
you're going through a lot of extra work and probably frustration by
apparently trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears.

So here goes, a few tips you're sure to ignore.

You've got a jointer, so I'll include that in the process- nothing
wrong with the tool, and you already have it.

When you get your stock, joint one face... if it needs it.

When it is flat, joint one edge, if it needs it, by putting the
jointed face against the fence.

If it needs it, plane the board to final thickness with the planer.
This insures that the two faces are parallel, which the jointer does
not do. If you do not own a planer, your next step involves a hand
plane and winding sticks, which can be fun to use as well- but going
back to the jointer will not help you unless you are doing a lot of
stock removal and just need to do some hogging off the thickness
before truing the piece by hand. You could also use a router with a
pair of "rails" on either side of the stock to adjust the thickness,
then sand or handplane the routed face- this will insure parallel
faces if done correctly.

After planing, rip the stock to width using your table saw, with the
jointed edge against the fence. This insures that both edges are
parallel, which the jointer does not do. Rip the piece to final
thickness- if you re-hit it with the jointer, you risk tapering it,
tearout, or leaving mill marks that are very difficult to sand out if
you feed too quickly, and will show up in your finish.

A good fence on the table saw is parallel to the blade without
excessive fiddling, is sturdy enough to prevent deflection when
ripping, and has an accurate indicator to allow for repeatable setups.
This will result in a glue-ready edge provided that you have a good,
clean, sharp blade, and have carefully set up your saw.

Then, crosscut the board to finished length. Occasionally, it will
make sense to route or rip dadoes down an entire length before
crosscutting, or route a profile on an edge, but we're just talking
about a simple rectangle here.

There you have it. It's a simple, time tested method for preparing
stock. All the gadgets and gizmos in the world will not do a better
job if you ignore the process. You can get your jointer to
micrometric precision, but if the fence on your table saw is out by a
sixteenth, it isn't going to matter. Nor will it matter if your table
saw is set to within one-tenth of a second of 90* if you are not
cutting a final edge with it, or if the ass end of the fence is
sliding out of adjustment when you're ripping (which happens fairly
frequently with your $15 Delta stock fence, if mine was anything to go
by.)

Once again, there is no magic bullet. There is no substitute for
thought, care and practice. A gadget will help you in some cases, but
you are losing something very important in the long run. If you're
not willing to discover what that is, there is no way for me to
explain it to you.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:02:49 -0500, "Stoutman" .@. wrote:

I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.

The genesis of the question about a tapered rail on the bed slats?

Maybe. Not the slats though. The rails that join the slats.

I did however come up with a solution. As long as you cross cut both ends
of your rail using the same edge as your 90 reference against the fence, AND
you use the same reference edge in the slat joinery, taper will not have an
effect.

That is a solution, but the whole works will be out of square.

Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the
most comprehensive manner.

Stoutman,

I don't know why this is irritating me tonight, but it seems like
you're overlooking some pretty important things again.

Things have to be done correctly, in the correct order, with the
proper tools. It's your shop, and I'm glad you're happy with it- but
you're going through a lot of extra work and probably frustration by
apparently trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears.

So here goes, a few tips you're sure to ignore.

Thanks for the chuckle professor!

That is a solution, but the whole works will be out of square.

No it's not sir. The non-jointing edge of one rail will taper down. Both
ends are square to the slat jointing edge.

Let me know if you are still confused. I can make a cad drawing for you.

Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the
most comprehensive manner.

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

Keep practicing.

Thanks professor.

See alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

thanks Bill. I bought an indicator and base a while back but just haven't
figured out how to take more than one measurement without having to move the
thing to another location, thereby changing it's original reference. I'll
learn it one of these days. Thanks for the encouragement!

"Bill in Detroit" wrote in message
...
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the
blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for
this task.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com


No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for
anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another
"confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that
respect. I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few
minutes setting the outfeed table and blades.
Cheers,
cc




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Cubby ... find a machinist who is willing to show you how. The whole thing
takes just moments. The indicator is used for a single series of
measurements with the understanding that you will need to do the same 3
second setup each time you start over.

I could show you how in 5 minutes and show you WAAAY mor than you will
ever need to know in 30. But I doubt if I can write anything up here that
will make much sense.

Understand that 1) the indicator must be firmly attached to a stable base.
2) this stable base is resting on / sliding over the reference plane (ie;
on a jointer, one of the tables) 3) the surface being adjusted will end up
parallel to that plane. 4) the adjustements to be made will consist of
something called 'successive approximation' ... even if you make the
measurements under laboratory conditions, there will always be measureable
error left. If you can no longer measure the error, great. But a better
test instrument could. 5) the smallest level of error you can reliably
count on is 1/2 of 1 division on the dial. That is, a dial indictaor
marked in .001" increments can be relied on to within .0005" +- .00025" To
put this in perspective: at .003" you cannot see wich of two blocks is the
larger. Below .001" it is highly unlikely that you can feel the difference
between them.

All of which is to say ... don't waste time trying for more accuracy and
precision than you need. If you can reliably make cuts to within 1/64" of
where you intended them, you are a better man than I am and far better
than many who nonetheless do outstanding work.

An indicator is an excellent way to set a blade. Mark my words. But it is
not the only way to skin that particular cat.

Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com


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