Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board on
it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique is
fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).
Cheers,
cc

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..
Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).

If the outfeed were high you would get the taper on the trailing portion.
You'd also hit the leading edge on the table, because the cutterhead had not
removed enough material. If the outfeed is low, you get the snipe you
induced by lowering. The symptom you report is a characteristic of outfeed
droop or not feeding with even pressure.

Recheck parallel, make sure your stock is not bowed in the middle causing
misfeed, and try again.

The outfeed table should be at the same height as the blades. If it's not,
as you found out, snipe results.

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..
Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on
it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is
fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).
Cheers,
cc

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..
Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).
Cheers,
cc



Ok, so it seems that a hair high gives me snipe and a hair low gives me
taper. I'll have to take a look
at it again tomorrow and run some wood through it at different heights to
see if I can eliminate both!
Cheers,
cc

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
news





Ok, so it seems that a hair high gives me snipe and a hair low gives me
taper. I'll have to take a look
at it again tomorrow and run some wood through it at different heights to
see if I can eliminate both!
Cheers,
cc


Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.

Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the blades?
If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for this task.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.

Not on mine.

Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

Stoutman wrote:

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??


Possibly.

There is no parallel reference on a jointer. Jointers make a face flat,
and/or one face an exact angle to another, based on the setting of the
fence.

Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. G

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
news
Stoutman wrote:

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??


Possibly.

There is no parallel reference on a jointer.

Really? I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure the
difference.

Assuming you set the outfeed properly, of course.

Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).

In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.

A jointers function is to "face plane" stock and to do some
edge work.

Stoutman wrote:

Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.


Not on mine.


Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.


Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...


Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.
Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.




I'm not trying to edge both edges with the jointer. I'm just trying to get
my one true edge so I can rip the other edge to parallel at the TS. I've
not had this problem before so I'm assuming an adjustment I made a few weeks
ago to eliminate snipe may have been too much of an "adjustment".
Cheers,
cc

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).

In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.

A jointers function is to "face plane" stock and to do some
edge work.

Oh I don't need calipers to see the taper forming. I had one board that I
had to continue to run through several times before it started jointing the
trailing edge of the board. By that point, I could visually tell that I
had taken much more material off the front vs. the rear. I think I'll go
spend some time today fiddling with the outfeed table height and see what I
come up with.
Cheers,
cc

George wrote:

Really? I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure
the difference.

Assuming you set the outfeed properly, of course.


I'll simply credit you with superior jointer skills.

All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.

Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I
don't check.

Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).

By doing it "several times", yes, you will possibly accumulate error that
can be measured with a caliper. I think the OP is seeing taper with out
using a caliper.

If you start with parallel faces you should end up with parallel faces. If
you start with a taper you should end up with a taper.



In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.

A jointers function is to "face plane" stock and to do some
edge work.

Stoutman wrote:

Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.


Not on mine.


Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.


Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.

Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
check.

I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than
why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I
guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. g

Stoutman wrote:
All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.

Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
check.

I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer than
why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences? I
guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. g


My typical method of preparing stock:

- Cut the board to rough length with a hand or jigsaw.

- Possibly rip to rough width with the band saw. I don't always work
from a sawmill edge. If I'm not, I'd now create a roughly rectangular
board at the band saw, based on figure preference.

- Joint a face flat enough so I can thickness plane the other side.
This may leave hollows in the center of the board, as I'm not looking
for a perfect face yet.

- Thickness plane the non-jointed side flat, then flip the board to
totally flatten it and ensure both faces are parallel.

- Choose an edge and joint it 90 degrees to a face

- Rip the other edge to width, creating a second edge parallel to the
jointed edge.

This works great for me, others may prefer their own methods.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message

If you start with parallel faces you should end up with parallel faces.

Not necessarily the case at all, either with edges, or faces. AAMOF, it you
happen to have done so, just consider yourself lucky ... this time.

If the board has any edge or face bow the faces/edges can still be
"parallel" ... joint one of those faces/edges and you will absolutely NO
longer have parallel faces/edges.

Then try to joint the opposite face/edge and you will be chasing your tail
with "taper" on one or both ends ... guaranteed.

As Leon correctly stated, a jointer simply should not be used in an attempt
to make opposite faces/edges "parallel".

These results can only be guaranteed with, and are jobs for the well setup
thickness planer and table saw for the normite, respectively, or the
appropriate planes for the neander.

If you do NOT follow this truism, it will eventually bite you in the butt
.... guaranteed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

"George" wrote in message

Really? I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure
the
difference.

Theorectically possible, providing you start with stock that is both
parallel AND perfectly "flat", but if your stock is already flat and
parallel there are much better ways to dimension it than running it over a
jointer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
news
Stoutman wrote:

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??


Possibly.

There is no parallel reference on a jointer. Jointers make a face flat,
and/or one face an exact angle to another, based on the setting of the
fence.

Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. G


I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it to
produce a piece that is tapered? Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result. Do you expect
your router to leave a tapered piece? What's the difference between what
the router is doing and what the jointer is doing? I think you've been
settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch?

--

-Mike-

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..
Hiya,
I'm having some issues with my jointer and was hoping for some help.
I'm getting a tapered board with the front of the board narrower than the
trailing end (I'm edge jointing). I understand this could
be due to the tables not being parallel or the cutter head is too low. I
checked the tables and they seem
fine. I did lower the outfeed table slightly to where if I put a board
on
it and manually spin the cutter, it moves the
board about 1/2" or so backwards. But now I'm getting snipe. In the
past, I've fixed that by setting the outfeed table to be
just below the top of the cutters. Am I to assume that there is a very,
very fine line between snipe and taper here or
is there something else I should be addressing? I believe my technique
is
fine (hasn't changed in the 10-15 years since I've
been using a jointer with no problems).
Cheers,
cc



What I've found is that it is very important to ensure the total bed plane
is in proper alignment. It's easy to have the infeed tilted inward toward
the cutter head and the outfeed the opposite (or any of the myriad of other
combinations) - such that over the total length of the two beds, there is
not a parallelism. Co-planer and all those other words we like to throw
around. Re-do your measurements both at the cutter head and across the
total bed length.

Use your imagination and think about a piece of wood making its way through
the jointer bed in all of the various misalignment configurations.

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:05:31 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message

If you start with parallel faces you should end up with parallel faces.

Not necessarily the case at all, either with edges, or faces. AAMOF, it you
happen to have done so, just consider yourself lucky ... this time.

If the board has any edge or face bow the faces/edges can still be
"parallel" ... joint one of those faces/edges and you will absolutely NO
longer have parallel faces/edges.

Then try to joint the opposite face/edge and you will be chasing your tail
with "taper" on one or both ends ... guaranteed.

As Leon correctly stated, a jointer simply should not be used in an attempt
to make opposite faces/edges "parallel".

The practice I have seen on woodworking tv shows goes like joint one
edge, rip on TS 1/32" oversize, then go back to the jointer to take
that 1/32" off. If the jointer isn't introducing a taper then they
should still be parallel.

I don't follow that practice because I know I've got some warp on the
infeed table. I can run a square down the length of the fence and
it's square at the outfeed side and at the start of the infeed, but
not at the infeed just in front of the cutter. I don't do anything
about it at this point because a) I can't be bothered because it still
makes straight edges and that's what it's supposed to do b) I don't
have a straight edge long enough that I *really* trust c) I will
probably end up wasting two days screwing with it and not get any
better.


-Leuf

"Leuf" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote:

As Leon correctly stated, a jointer simply should not be used in an
attempt
to make opposite faces/edges "parallel".

The practice I have seen on woodworking tv shows goes like joint one
edge, rip on TS 1/32" oversize, then go back to the jointer to take
that 1/32" off. If the jointer isn't introducing a taper then they
should still be parallel.

Yep ... as long as the first step was joint an edge, then rip to width, that
should work providing the jointer is setup properly and you're a practiced
hand with the machine.

AAMOF, it's not uncommon to do that on panel glue-ups to take advantage of
complementary angles by jointing adjoining boards one edge face in, the
other face out.

That is not the same as what I stated above, however.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all jointers.

Not on mine.

Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

Try running a board edge on your jointer 15 to 20 times and see if the edges
are still parallel.

"Leuf" wrote in message
...

The practice I have seen on woodworking tv shows goes like joint one
edge, rip on TS 1/32" oversize, then go back to the jointer to take
that 1/32" off. If the jointer isn't introducing a taper then they
should still be parallel.

I have seen that too. I have also seen the shows use a guard when cutting
dado's on the TS. Because it is on TV does in mean it is right. My shop
teacher would give licks to any one that used the jointer on opposite sides
of a board. The TV shows that use a jointer after the TS are using the
jointer incorrectly and are not using a properly set up TS. I would not
dream of depending on a jointer to bring a board to an exact edge or
thickness. If the jointer was intended to make surfaces parallel it would
have a gauge like all other tools intended to make surfaces parallel.

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
. ..





I'm not trying to edge both edges with the jointer. I'm just trying to
get my one true edge so I can rip the other edge to parallel at the TS.
I've not had this problem before so I'm assuming an adjustment I made a
few weeks ago to eliminate snipe may have been too much of an
"adjustment".
Cheers,
cc




Good. I thought that when you stated that the jointer tapered your board
that you were trying to prevent the taper. You are really only looking for
straight and flat edges.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

"B A R R Y" wrote in message

Parallel edges or faces obtained on a jointer are based on luck. G


I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it
to
produce a piece that is tapered?

It doesn't have to be the jointer that causes the taper ... it can be the
stock, or even poor technique, or a combination of the two.

Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result.

Providing that the stock is flat, the faces/edges are parallel start with,
and the technique is a practised one, yes. But getting stock to that point
is not going to be done by the jointer alone, unless you're lucky.

I was under the impression that was Barry's point.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

"George" wrote in message
t...



There is no parallel reference on a jointer.

Really?

Yes really.

Unlike a TS, a thickness planer, a thickness sander, or a RAS the jointer
has no fixed reference to insure exact width or thickness. On paper the
jointer should give you parallel edges if you started with parallel edges
but with the jointer you enter the human factor that controlls the
reference.


I thought the cutters took off a measured amount all along the
length, based on their height. If you started parallel, you should get
parallel, less the equal amount removed by the cutters. I can't measure
the difference.

With a single pass, perhaps but if you want a board 1/2" narrower the
accumilated error will probably be measurable. Better to have the TS set up
properly and there would be no reason to revisit the jointer.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...

All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.

Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I don't
check.

I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer
than why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS fences?
I guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. g


Yeah a bit confused. ;~) The fancy Bess fences give us the parallel
surfaces and with a great blade usually a surface that is smoother than what
the typical jointer will leave and the correct width.

Seriously, talk to some one that teaches proper use of a jointer, you may be
enlightened.

"Pat Barber" wrote in message

Take a piece of any stock that "has not" been edge jointed
at all. Run the stock through the jointer "several" times
and then measure with a accurate tool(calipers).

In my opinion, you "will" have taper to some degree. I have
a highly tuned, well adjusted DJ-20 and I know it will taper
a board in a heart beat. It has since the day I got it.

Then add in board "length" ... IME, even on some well set up machines, the
shorter the board the easier to induce taper, or in extremes, snipe.

You are dead on ... there are just too many variables/factors involved to be
using a jointer for anything else but it's intended function, which is not
'dimensioning" stock, but preparing it to be dimensioned.

.... and that in a specific, precise and methodical manner/procedure.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

I have to question this. What is it about a jointer that would cause it
to
produce a piece that is tapered?

A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece being
processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence that
would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?


Properly set up infeed/outfeed/cutterhead
relationships should indeed provide a non-tapered result.

That all looks good on paper but the human element is not ever properly set
up. The human element is the reference point and it is very in consistent.


Do you expect
your router to leave a tapered piece?

Yes, if I used it as a jointer to trim the entire edge of a board over and
over to achiece the desired width.

What's the difference between what
the router is doing and what the jointer is doing?

Typically a router used free hand and in a table does not have two different
parallel surfaces that the wood is being processed on like that of a
jointer.


I think you've been
settling for too little in your jointer setup. Or - am I out to lunch?

A jointer can produce good results but not as good as those done on the
proper machine.
I don't think you have been out to lunch so much as not having been trained
by a person that really knows what he is talking about.

You hear a lot of complaints about jointers, the reason is often because too
much is expected of them.

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...

All of my training involved not expecting opposite faces to remain
parallel off the jointer, so I'll agree to disagree.

Maybe my faces are parallel, but since I don't expect them to be, I
don't check.

I'm confused. If you guys aren't getting parallel faces at the jointer
than why do people drop all that dough on those fancy Besseimer TS
fences? I guess I will stick with my $15 delta stock fence. g


Yeah a bit confused. ;~) The fancy Bess fences give us the parallel
surfaces and with a great blade usually a surface that is smoother than
what the typical jointer will leave and the correct width.

Seriously, talk to some one that teaches proper use of a jointer, you may
be enlightened.


Have to second that Leon - that's the way I always learned - joint the edge
flat and rip it parallel. I've had the RARE occasion of parallel edges after
jointing but I attribute it to pure luck.

Vic

Leon wrote:
: A non fixed opposite reference that insures exact results of the piece being
: processed. Ask this question, what is it about a TS WITH OUT a fence that
: would cause it to produce a cut that is tapered?

Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give
you anything comparable.

-- Andy Bars

Andrew Barss wrote:

Not a great analogy (though I do agree with the general point that getting
parallel edges on a jointer is a matter of some luck, and is beter left to
other toold entirely). The jointer tables, in theory anyway, provide a
reference for a straight edge. Riping on a TS without a fence doesn't give
you anything comparable.

-- Andy Bars

A straight edge is not the same as a parallel edge. You can make a
straight edge quite easily with only a plane. You can even make a
straight edge on two opposite sides of the same board. But getting them
straight AND parallel is an altogether different proposition. Do the
geometry ... without referencing the opposite edge, how will you know if
the two edges are parallel?

There IS a way ... but the jointer can't use it.

Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com


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Why would you joint a strait board?

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all
jointers.

Not on mine.

Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and
flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

Sounds like a loaded question, but I will answer it anyway.

I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com



"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Why would you joint a strait board?

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Keep in mind also that a "slight" taper result is common on all
jointers.

Not on mine.

Jointers are not used to create parallel surfaces, only straight and
flat
surfaces. The TS should be used to make the opposite edge smooth and
parallel.

Only to take it out of parallel at the jointer??

Sounds like you need a better saw blade.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Sounds like a loaded question, but I will answer it anyway.

I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.

"Stoutman" wrote in message

I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.

The genesis of the question about a tapered rail on the bed slats?




--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

Nope, not the blade. Is it the TS (most likely-have a look at my saw at
my website)? Is it the operator? Not sure, but I am not alone in this
operation.

How good is Nahmie's saw? He routinely does this as well.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com



"CW" wrote in message
nk.net...
Sounds like you need a better saw blade.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Sounds like a loaded question, but I will answer it anyway.

I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.

I routinely edge joint (lightly) after ripping to remove any saw marks.

The genesis of the question about a tapered rail on the bed slats?

Maybe. Not the slats though. The rails that join the slats.

I did however come up with a solution. As long as you cross cut both ends
of your rail using the same edge as your 90 reference against the fence, AND
you use the same reference edge in the slat joinery, taper will not have an
effect.

Let me know if this is not clear. I don't always explain things in the
most comprehensive manner.






--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/07/07

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Are you using a dial indicator to align your outfeed table with the
blades? If not, I highly recommend it. The TS-aligner Jr works well for
this task.

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com


No. I've never been able to figure out how to use a dial indicator for
anything. I set it up, then find I need to move it to get another
"confirming" measurement so to speak. I know, I'm stupid in that respect.
I did finally get the jointer working well. Just took a few minutes
setting the outfeed table and blades.
Cheers,
cc