On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:54:04 -0500, "Bill Stock"
wrote:

This question is somewhat rhetorical, but I'd like some confirmation that
I'm not just being anal.

I picked out some lumber from the mill for the first time last week and went
to pick it up today. I had it jointed (S2S) as I don't have a Jointer, just
a Planer. They seemed a little surprised that I didn't want it planed,
perhaps that partly explains the results. I had a quick look when I picked
it up today, but did not spend too much time (obviously) checking it over. I
just examined all the boards (6'*6" roughly) and there's only one or two
faces that are smooth, 4 or 5 with deepish mill marks, another 3 or 4 with
divots from not being flattened enough. Then there's the one that you almost
can't tell the jointed face from the un-jointed face. The edges don't look
bad, except for one with a bad split.

Should I expect these to be jointed for flatness AND smoothness? Can I
assume that they expected to plane the marks out of the jointed faces? I
know the real answer is to return these for a redo, but can I plane both
sides to clean these up? Assuming they are actually flat, which is
questionable in a couple of cases.





Bill:

I believe that what you really wanted is what is called SLR1E in the
lumber trade.

This stands for Straight Line Ripped One Edge and is the creation of a
reference edge for sitting against your table saw fence.

This allows you to cut a line parallel to the ripped edge, so that you
wind up with a board of equal width throughout its length.

They don't actually use a jointer to do this jointing but use a
straight line ripping saw to cut the straight line.

Lumber terminology can be confusing. S2S usually means planing both
faces of the board to a given dimension. You may also specify that it
only be skip planed to a given dimension, which may give you hollows
on one or both faces.

S4S is used as a designation in softwood rendering and produces
dimension lumber, such as 2x4 and 2x6 etc.

When I was ordering a lot of hardwood lumber for my shop I would buy
it skip planed to 13/16" with one face flat and an edge done SLR1E.

This gave me a reference edge for the table saw and a reference for
the planing. I didn't want the rough planers that the yard used to
bring my sticks any closer to final thickness because my little
lunchbox planer, with me paying close attention to grain direction and
depth of cut, could produce a far nicer face.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Swingman wrote:
: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message

: give it up, that rarified air in academia is not up to the task.


Ah, good one, sport! Very nice. Bigot are ya?

With a sense of humor like that, I'm sure lots of people laugh at you.


Here I quote you, a couple posts back:

"Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't own
jointers, or don't want to have to. You do NOT have to specify that it be
"jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry standards/practices.
Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in listening
to your misconceptions.'

: : "Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't
: own
: : jointers, or don't want to have to.
:
: Actually, a lot of it is sold to people who don't know what a jointer is,
: nor care.

: Read it again ... then read what you parroted.

Oookay... done. You imply in the quote above that if a person buys S2S lumber
there is no need to run it through a jointer, i.e. it's already
been done. And that's what you're wrong about. I'm not parroting, that's
a direct quote up there.


: If you're putting up some shelves in the garage to hold stuff, you might
: not
: care (or notice) that a board has some twist, or cup, to it. If you're
: a carpenter and puting up soffits, you probbaly don't care that the boards
: aren't
: the flat you get from a jointer.
:
: And a lot of S2S is sold to people who simply aren't near a
: mill. I have several excellent hardwood suppliers within driving
: distance, but I can't buy rough lumber from them -- they don't buy it.

: And that proves what?

Your post led me to believe that you thought that

a) if a person buys S2S, it's because doing so makes having a jointer
unnecessary.

b) if a person doesn't own a jointer, he/she ought to buy S2S lumber.

I was noting that a person can buy S2S lumber for other reasons,
including the lack of an alternative. I can get some 50 or so domestic
and exotic hardwoods within a 15-minute drive from my house. Every stick
and board is S2S or better.

: You do NOT have to specify that it be
: : "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry
: standards/practices.

Go. Look. Up. What. The. Terms. Actually. Mean.

As another poster noted, these terms are defined in the
industry. You don't get to redefine them at will.

S2S = surfaced two sides, on a planer.
S2S1E = that, plus straight-line ripped on one edge.


If you don't believe me, ask someone in the industry. Call a
mill or a hardwood supplier and ask them to
define it. You'll get the same information. Look it up in a book
if you can.

S2S =/= surfaced on ANY side with a jointer.

: : Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in
: listening
: : to your misconceptions.

Back at ya.

: What, in saying that you don't have to specify "jointing" when purchasing
: S2S1E lumber?

: Once again, it is simply NOT necessary!

You're either deliberately being thick, or you got a comprehension
problem.


: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses
: from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were
: back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go **** yourself.


What are you, thirteen?


-- Andy Barss

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

snipped for sanitary purposes


: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses
: from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were
: back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go **** yourself.


What are you, thirteen?


-- Andy Barssus continue to make assumptions untill


Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in
the position to adjudicate in such matters.

Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber
Association.

Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get
into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:



"S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces
of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still
be rough.

S4S stands for surfaces four sides and is the same as S2S plus the
edges are straight and parallel.

SLR1E stands for straight-line ripped one edge, meaning that one side
is straight the other will still be rough. S4S requires S2S and
SLR1E."


Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask
this question:

"What the **** are you talking about?"



You used to be such a nice little fellow.













Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:
: On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
: wrote:

: snipped for sanitary purposes


:: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses
:: from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were
:: back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go **** yourself.
:
:
:What are you, thirteen?
:
:
: -- Andy Barssus continue to make assumptions untill


: Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in
: the position to adjudicate in such matters.

: Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber
: Association.

: Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get
: into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:



: "S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces
: of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still
: be rough.

Notice the word "planed" above when you typed it? Do you
know what it means? It means "run through a planer".
It does not mean "run over a jointer". There's a different
word for that. Guess what it is.


: Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask
: this question:

: "What the **** are you talking about?"


I guess you have trouble reading and understanding as well.
You and Swingman might want to hire a tutor.

: You used to be such a nice little fellow.


I haven't been little for quite some time, but I am nice.


You're condescending and pompous, apparently, at
least from your recent posts.


-- Andy Barss

P.S. *Very* witty thing up there, with the
mispelling of my name. Kudos! I mean, really,
really well-done.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 04:13:45 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:


P.S. *Very* witty thing up there, with the
mispelling of my name. Kudos! I mean, really,
really well-done.


Once again, you've missed the truth.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 04:13:45 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
: On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
: wrote:

: snipped for sanitary purposes


:: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses
:: from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were
:: back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go **** yourself.
:
:
:What are you, thirteen?
:
:
: -- Andy Barssus continue to make assumptions untill


: Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in
: the position to adjudicate in such matters.

: Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber
: Association.

: Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get
: into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:



: "S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces
: of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still
: be rough.

Notice the word "planed" above when you typed it? Do you
know what it means? It means "run through a planer".
It does not mean "run over a jointer". There's a different
word for that. Guess what it is.


: Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask
: this question:

: "What the **** are you talking about?"


I guess you have trouble reading and understanding as well.
You and Swingman might want to hire a tutor.

: You used to be such a nice little fellow.


I haven't been little for quite some time, but I am nice.


You're condescending and pompous, apparently, at
least from your recent posts.


-- Andy Barss

P.S. *Very* witty thing up there, with the
mispelling of my name. Kudos! I mean, really,
really well-done.


Actually, I did not think he was directing this to you. So maybe I'm
confused as well.
Anyway, TW's info corresponds to my understanding of terms.

In article , Group wrote:
[snippola]
Anyway, TW's info corresponds to my understanding of terms.

And mine, and Andy's. Nobody has been arguing over what the terms mean.

The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat (or
perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending,
arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask
this question:

"What the **** are you talking about?"

Part of the problem here is pathetically obvious ... the misconception that
the art of buying lumber can be learned from a Google search.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
In article Group wrote:
[snippola]
Anyway, TW's info corresponds to my understanding of terms.

And mine, and Andy's. Nobody has been arguing over what the terms mean.

The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat (or
perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending,
arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).

Wrong again ... the "dispute" has been all along your erroneous contention
that you need to specify "jointing".

BTW, you don't need to earn new terms from Andy, Doug ... just look in the
mirror.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

S4S is used as a designation in softwood rendering and produces
dimension lumber, such as 2x4 and 2x6 etc.

Just to add to that ... some hardwood dealers sell hardwoods S4S to those
willing to pay the generally high price so as not to have to mill it
themselves, as well as S4S hardwoods is all the BORG's sell in their
generally meager hardwood inventory.

When I was ordering a lot of hardwood lumber for my shop I would buy
it skip planed to 13/16" with one face flat and an edge done SLR1E.

A valuable practice for a man who has learned the art of buying hardwoods.

This gave me a reference edge for the table saw and a reference for
the planing. I didn't want the rough planers that the yard used to
bring my sticks any closer to final thickness because my little
lunchbox planer, with me paying close attention to grain direction and
depth of cut, could produce a far nicer face.

Again, just to add to that: Skip planing, or "hit n' miss" as we call it
down here, can also give the hardwood lumber buyer a reasonable idea of the
figure and suitability when choosing wood for a project before he leaves the
lumber yard.

I recommended S2S1E to the OP, because if learns how to pick his lumber,
learning that art with both sides surfaced until he gets the hang of it, he
has much better chance of satisfaction than he had previously received when
ordering his lumber "jointed", including the convenience being able to rip
to width and planing to thickness with the tools he already owned.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article , "Swingman" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
In article Group wrote:
[snippola]
Anyway, TW's info corresponds to my understanding of terms.

And mine, and Andy's. Nobody has been arguing over what the terms mean.

The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat (or
perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending,
arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).

Wrong again ... the "dispute" has been all along your erroneous contention
that you need to specify "jointing".

You still don't get it, do you?

The only erroneous contention made in this thread has been your completely
wrongheaded (and so far totally unexplained) claim that buying S2S lumber
somehow makes it unnecessary to specify that you want it jointed.

I repeat: if you want your lumber jointed, then you need to specify that you
want it jointed, otherwise it won't be.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Swingman" wrote:

I recommended S2S1E to the OP, because if learns how to pick his lumber,
learning that art with both sides surfaced until he gets the hang of it, he
has much better chance of satisfaction than he had previously received when
ordering his lumber "jointed", including the convenience being able to rip
to width and planing to thickness with the tools he already owned.

So you recommend to the guy who does NOT have a jointer that he should STOP
buying jointed lumber, and instead buy lumber that has NOT been jointed, so
that when he planes to thickness he's now referencing against an UNjointed
face when previously he had been referencing against a jointed (and
therefore flat) face.

And you claim he'll have better satisfaction and convenience.

I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what a jointer is for.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat
(or
perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending,
arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).

"Swingman" wrote:

Wrong again ... the "dispute" has been all along your erroneous
contention
that you need to specify "jointing".

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

You still don't get it, do you?

The only erroneous contention made in this thread has been your completely
wrongheaded (and so far totally unexplained) claim that buying S2S lumber
somehow makes it unnecessary to specify that you want it jointed.

What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been used
in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood lumber
.... "planing" and/or SLR (straight line rip) is.

And, once again, you do NOT need to specify "jointing" when buying SxS
lumber.

I repeat: if you want your lumber jointed, then you need to specify that
you
want it jointed, otherwise it won't be.

Ahhhh ... now that I DO agree with.

Although, it is not normally done and, IME, most hardwood lumber yards won't
deal with it except at a much higher price, if at all.

Around here a "millwork" will have a jointer, but I wouldn't bet that all
hardwood lumber dealers or yards will as a matter of course ... and this is
an area historically known for its hardwood production.

And once more, It is an every day practice that, if you pick your SxSxE
lumber correctly, you can get by without a jointer ... as the OP as been
advised now by quite of a few of those with a better grasp of the situation
than you appear to be.

While these facts are inarguable, you will no doubt find a way.

.... nuff said. Knock yourself out on the subject.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been used
in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood
lumber
... "planing" and/or SLR (straight line rip) is.

And, once again, you do NOT need to specify "jointing" when buying SxS
lumber.

I repeat: if you want your lumber jointed, then you need to specify that
you
want it jointed, otherwise it won't be.

Ahhhh ... now that I DO agree with.

Although, it is not normally done and, IME, most hardwood lumber yards
won't
deal with it except at a much higher price, if at all.

Around here a "millwork" will have a jointer, but I wouldn't bet that all
hardwood lumber dealers or yards will as a matter of course ... and this
is
an area historically known for its hardwood production.

And once more, It is an every day practice that, if you pick your SxSxE
lumber correctly, you can get by without a jointer ... as the OP as been
advised now by quite of a few of those with a better grasp of the
situation
than you appear to be.

While these facts are inarguable, you will no doubt find a way.


Well, it's certainly unprofitable to state even the obvious to you. As
earlier, "Jointing" has nothing to do with surfacing terminology. As a
matter for fact, as many people who have contributed to this thread have
mentioned, jointing can only be accomplished once there is a flat face to
reference. The mill edger grabs and compresses the board faces, running it
through a gang saw at standard widths. The board may still have wane here
and there, can and does twist, bow and warp after this treatment, which is
normally performed green. That's why milled lumber is undersized. They have
to take away wood to get it flat and straight. They can do one or both
edges again, as you prefer. You pay for the waste.

The powered method for gaining a reference surface to join to is to employ a
Jointer, though a good thickness planer, careful work, and maybe a fiddly
fussy sled can ultimately get a flat face on most boards. Hand planes can
get a reasonable face fairly quickly as well, and may be the only choice for
wide stock, though only a fool, in my opinion, would surface fully with a
hand plane when all he has to do is knock off major deviations to allow the
table of the planer to bridge the remaining gaps. Used to do a full demo of
manual stock preparation every year for every class, and that was enough.
Concept understood, we all took advantage of technology thereafter.

The purpose of a machine is to simplify a task. Those who want to construct
secondary fences or transport sleds to join an edge on their tablesaw,
shaper or router table are certainly welcome to do so, as are those who
pronounce jointers a waste of money and then brag of LN planes costing more
than a good machine. It isn't the project that counts for them, but the
process.

If the OP is Of the "expectations" thread is reading, get a jointer first.
It simplifies everything. Most furniture does not need precisely
thicknessed wood, note the furniture produced up into the middle of the
nineteenth century, but it does demand, or at least benefit from a square,
straight edge. A jointer will get you there faster, whether it's "good
enough" thicknessing or straight, square edges.

A planer is primarily for people who do _not_ purchase fully surfaced
stock, where it is always wise to know the language before you go ask for
something. No button at the lumber yard or mill for either Spanish or
Novice. If you want something, you'll have to learn how to ask, and you'll
also have to learn how to check, because the people behind the counter are
often only as knowledgeable as the words on their computer screens.

"George" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message

What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been
used
in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood
lumber

Well, it's certainly unprofitable to state even the obvious to you. As
earlier, "Jointing" has nothing to do with surfacing terminology.

Hmmm ... seems that I had just clearly stated that. So why the superfulous
crap along with it?

That said, it's good to see that you agree.

As a
matter for fact, as many people who have contributed to this thread have
mentioned, jointing can only be accomplished once there is a flat face to
reference.

but, you just started this thread.

The mill edger grabs and compresses the board faces, running it
through a gang saw at standard widths. The board may still have wane here
and there, can and does twist, bow and warp after this treatment, which is
normally performed green. That's why milled lumber is undersized. They
have
to take away wood to get it flat and straight. They can do one or both
edges again, as you prefer. You pay for the waste.

No argument whatsoever ...

The powered method for gaining a reference surface to join to is to employ
a
Jointer, though a good thickness planer, careful work, and maybe a fiddly
fussy sled can ultimately get a flat face on most boards. Hand planes can
get a reasonable face fairly quickly as well, and may be the only choice
for
wide stock, though only a fool, in my opinion, would surface fully with a
hand plane when all he has to do is knock off major deviations to allow
the
table of the planer to bridge the remaining gaps. Used to do a full demo
of
manual stock preparation every year for every class, and that was enough.
Concept understood, we all took advantage of technology thereafter.

Again, no argument .. AAMOF, well stated.

The purpose of a machine is to simplify a task. Those who want to
construct
secondary fences or transport sleds to join an edge on their tablesaw,
shaper or router table are certainly welcome to do so, as are those who
pronounce jointers a waste of money and then brag of LN planes costing
more
than a good machine. It isn't the project that counts for them, but the
process.

Again, you're preaching to the choir ... too damn bad you had to start off
with the derogatory bull****

If the OP is Of the "expectations" thread is reading, get a jointer first.
It simplifies everything. Most furniture does not need precisely
thicknessed wood, note the furniture produced up into the middle of the
nineteenth century, but it does demand, or at least benefit from a square,
straight edge. A jointer will get you there faster, whether it's "good
enough" thicknessing or straight, square edges.

I can't agree with that in it's entirety ... but different strokes. I would
prefer to say that it really depends upon what you do in woodworking that
determines the need for a specific tool, and in what order.

A planer is primarily for people who do _not_ purchase fully surfaced
stock,

A planer is primarily used by most woodworkers to dimension to suitable
thickness and provide a suitable surface.

where it is always wise to know the language before you go ask for
something. No button at the lumber yard or mill for either Spanish or
Novice. If you want something, you'll have to learn how to ask, and
you'll
also have to learn how to check, because the people behind the counter are
often only as knowledgeable as the words on their computer screens.

Hmmm .. once again, I clearly stated that in my very first post on this
subject. Nice to see that you agree.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article , "Swingman" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat
(or
perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending,
arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).

"Swingman" wrote:

Wrong again ... the "dispute" has been all along your erroneous
contention
that you need to specify "jointing".

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

You still don't get it, do you?

The only erroneous contention made in this thread has been your completely
wrongheaded (and so far totally unexplained) claim that buying S2S lumber
somehow makes it unnecessary to specify that you want it jointed.

What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been used
in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood lumber
.... "planing" and/or SLR (straight line rip) is.

No, I'm not missing that at all. I understand that clearly. What *you* are
missing is that since jointing is not part of that process, then SxS lumber
still _needs_to_be_jointed_.

And, once again, you do NOT need to specify "jointing" when buying SxS
lumber.

I repeat: if you want your lumber jointed, then you need to specify that you
want it jointed, otherwise it won't be.

Ahhhh ... now that I DO agree with.

Took you long enough -- that's, what, the sixth or seventh time I've said
that?

Although, it is not normally done and, IME, most hardwood lumber yards won't
deal with it except at a much higher price, if at all.

Which is exactly why I've been saying all along that if you want it jointed,
it IS necessary to specify that.

Around here a "millwork" will have a jointer, but I wouldn't bet that all
hardwood lumber dealers or yards will as a matter of course ... and this is
an area historically known for its hardwood production.

And once more, It is an every day practice that, if you pick your SxSxE
lumber correctly, you can get by without a jointer ... as the OP as been
advised now by quite of a few of those with a better grasp of the situation
than you appear to be.

I have a perfectly good grasp of the situation -- but you still haven't
grasped the FACT that S2S lumber is NOT dead flat.

If you realize it's not dead flat, and accept that anyway, fine. I prefer
using lumber that is, and hence I joint mine before using it.

If you think it is dead flat, then you should probably visit an optometrist
before your next trip to the lumberyard.

While these facts are inarguable, you will no doubt find a way.

You haven't stated any facts yet...
.... nuff said. Knock yourself out on the subject.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Swingman" wrote:
"George" wrote in message

A planer is primarily for people who do _not_ purchase fully surfaced
stock,

A planer is primarily used by most woodworkers to dimension to suitable
thickness and provide a suitable surface.

... which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy
wood that's been planed but *not* jointed.

BTW, I think I just figured out why you've been so confused by this
discussion: you've been reading the word "jointed" and assuming that everyone
who uses it is talking about *edge* jointing only, without realizing that the
context makes it quite plain that we've been talking about *face* jointing.

See if you like this restatement of my first paragraph here better:

... which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy
wood that's been planed but *not* jointed one face and one edge.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Nov 11, 7:43 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
snip

You're right, Doug, and have been right throughout this thread. That
said, I think it's time to move on.

JP

Swingman wrote:
: "Tom Watson" wrote in message

: Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask
: this question:
:
: "What the **** are you talking about?"

: Part of the problem here is pathetically obvious ... the misconception that
: the art of buying lumber can be learned from a Google search.

Setting aside your being persistently dense, and using epithets like a
snotty preteen... if what you're talking about here (and it's not terribly clear)
is my and others' reference to standard definitions of what e.g., S2S means:

no one was talking about the 'art' of anything

several people were talking about your erroneous claim that
S2S milling involves (face) jointing, and repeatedly pointing
out not only that you were wrong, but that you could easily verify
THAT you were wrong by consulting the very standards
you claimed (wrongly) that you knew the definition of.

Ignorance is excusable. When various people pointed out that
you were wrong, and did so very politely, the grown-up response
would have been to thank them for the clarification. Instead you
hurl invective, tell people to f*ck themselves, and seem to get off on
palling up with Tom Watson and acting like Crabbe and Goyle.



Ignorance is excusable. Willful ignorance is a sign of a closed mind.
Willful ignorance and repeated insults directed at people trying
to help you is a sign of a mental disturbance. You might want to
see a therapist for some help.



-- Andy Barss

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:22:14 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

...seem to get off on
palling up with Tom Watson and acting like Crabbe and Goyle.


A literary reference.
And on exactly the level I would have expected.
Very impressive, Andy.

(if you speak with tongue in cheek but you have a sharp tongue, you
run the risk of doing yourself an injury)



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Andrew Barss" wrote in message

several people were talking about your erroneous claim that
S2S milling involves (face) jointing, and repeatedly pointing
out not only that you were wrong, but that you could easily verify
THAT you were wrong by consulting the very standards
you claimed (wrongly) that you knew the definition of.

"Swingman" wrote in message:

"S2S lumber is, by definition, surfaced (planed) on two
faces and both edges are rough."

"Swingman" wrote in message:

What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been used
in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood
lumber
... "planing" and/or SLR (straight line rip) is.

Try again ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

BTW, I think I just figured out why you've been so confused by this
discussion: you've been reading the word "jointed" and assuming that
everyone
who uses it is talking about *edge* jointing only, without realizing that
the
context makes it quite plain that we've been talking about *face*
jointing.

See if you like this restatement of my first paragraph here better:

.. which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy
wood that's been planed but *not* jointed one face and one edge.

Not necessarily ... But I think I've figured out where _we_ have BOTH been
confused about the other's contentions.

Kindly hear me out before snapping back ... thanks.

Looking back over the thread this afternoon trying to figure out where it
went out of whack, and I believe the below is the pivotal point at which we
started down a diverging semantics path ... and it is entirely my fault:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message:

Well, no, not quite -- if he orders wood S2S1E without *also* specifying
that it is to be jointed *too*, what he's going to get from most
lumberyards is
wood that's been planed two sides and straight-line ripped one edge, but
not jointed anywhere.

While I am in _complete_ agreement with the latter half of the above,
unfortunately my response quoted the entire, while my intent was to take
some exception to ONLY the following:

Well, no, not quite -- if he orders wood S2S1E without *also* specifying
that it is to be jointed *too*,

I can see where injudiciously, in haste to reply, my including the latter
half caused the mistaken notion that I somehow assumed jointing was a
necessary requirement for SxSxE lumber, which is far from the truth, and
something I thought I had made quite plain in a definition of surfaced
lumber in a prior post.

I apologize for the sloppiness.

However, I continue to disagree with the blanket assertion that the
following statement, which started the whole shooting match, is wrong:

What the OP REALLY wants, being without a jointer, is S2S1E ... that way
he
can rip the opposite edge to the desired width and use his planer to plane
for the desired thickness.

On this we shall have to continue to disagree.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

G

In article , "Swingman" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

BTW, I think I just figured out why you've been so confused by this
discussion: you've been reading the word "jointed" and assuming that
everyone
who uses it is talking about *edge* jointing only, without realizing that the
context makes it quite plain that we've been talking about *face* jointing.

See if you like this restatement of my first paragraph here better:

.. which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy
wood that's been planed but *not* jointed one face and one edge.

Not necessarily ... But I think I've figured out where _we_ have BOTH been
confused about the other's contentions.

I'm certainly confused by your repeated insistence that it's not necessary to
specify jointing when ordering S2S lumber. This does not make *any* sense,
because:
a) the standard for S2S does not specify jointing, therefore S2S lumber can be
assumed to not have been jointed;
b) boards which have not been jointed, and yet have at least one face that is
perfectly straight and flat, with an edge that is also perfectly straight
and perpendicular to that face, are so rare as to be for all practical
purposes nonexistent;
c) S2S lumber therefore cannot be assumed to be straight and fa;
d) therefore it should be jointed before use; and finally
e) if the purchaser does not have the means to joint it himself, he'd better
order it that way or he won't get it that way.

Kindly hear me out before snapping back ... thanks.

Looking back over the thread this afternoon trying to figure out where it
went out of whack, and I believe the below is the pivotal point at which we
started down a diverging semantics path ... and it is entirely my fault:

Thank you.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message:

Well, no, not quite -- if he orders wood S2S1E without *also* specifying
that it is to be jointed *too*, what he's going to get from most
lumberyards is
wood that's been planed two sides and straight-line ripped one edge, but
not jointed anywhere.

While I am in _complete_ agreement with the latter half of the above,
unfortunately my response quoted the entire, while my intent was to take
some exception to ONLY the following:

Well, no, not quite -- if he orders wood S2S1E without *also* specifying
that it is to be jointed *too*,

I can see where injudiciously, in haste to reply, my including the latter
half caused the mistaken notion that I somehow assumed jointing was a
necessary requirement for SxSxE lumber, which is far from the truth, and
something I thought I had made quite plain in a definition of surfaced
lumber in a prior post.

I apologize for the sloppiness.

I never stated, or thought, that you assumed that jointing was a necessary
requirement for the production of SxSxE lumber.

However, I continue to disagree with the blanket assertion that the
following statement, which started the whole shooting match, is wrong:

What the OP REALLY wants, being without a jointer, is S2S1E ... that way
he
can rip the opposite edge to the desired width and use his planer to plane
for the desired thickness.

On this we shall have to continue to disagree.

Indeed we do disagree on that point. I will continue to maintain that for the
OP, or anyone else who does not own a jointer, to stop ordering jointed lumber
and instead deliberately purchase lumber that still needs to processed with a
tool he does not own, is not a reasonable thing to do. Certainly there are
other ways of preparing straight flat stock without using a jointer (jointer
planes and planer sleds being the most obvious), but about the only way
that's more convenient than using your own jointer is paying someone else to
joint it for you -- which is essentially what the OP was doing by ordering his
lumber jointed.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:04:17 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


I'm certainly confused by your repeated insistence that it's not necessary to
specify jointing when ordering S2S lumber. This does not make *any* sense,
because:
a) the standard for S2S does not specify jointing, therefore S2S lumber can be
assumed to not have been jointed;

Correct. To order jointing you specify J1S or J2S.


b) boards which have not been jointed, and yet have at least one face that is
perfectly straight and flat, with an edge that is also perfectly straight
and perpendicular to that face, are so rare as to be for all practical
purposes nonexistent;

The same can be said for timber that has been jointed.


c) S2S lumber therefore cannot be assumed to be straight and fa;


Neither can jointed timber be assumed to be straight an fa.

Actually, I'm not so sure about fa.


d) therefore it should be jointed before use; and finally


It should be jointed if it needs jointing.


e) if the purchaser does not have the means to joint it himself, he'd better
order it that way or he won't get it that way.


Or he'd better get good at selecting timber.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:04:17 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


b) boards which have not been jointed, and yet have at least one face
that is
perfectly straight and flat, with an edge that is also perfectly straight
and perpendicular to that face, are so rare as to be for all practical
purposes nonexistent;

The same can be said for timber that has been jointed.

Precisely.

A board "jointed" yesterday may not be considered, for all practical
purposes, "jointed" today ... a decidedly "non-rare", and very common,
circumstance.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:04:17 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


I'm certainly confused by your repeated insistence that it's not necessary to
specify jointing when ordering S2S lumber. This does not make *any* sense,
because:
a) the standard for S2S does not specify jointing, therefore S2S lumber can be

assumed to not have been jointed;

Correct. To order jointing you specify J1S or J2S.


b) boards which have not been jointed, and yet have at least one face that is
perfectly straight and flat, with an edge that is also perfectly straight
and perpendicular to that face, are so rare as to be for all practical
purposes nonexistent;

The same can be said for timber that has been jointed.

Guess the hyperbole went over your head, Tom. Of course jointed lumber isn't
perfectly straight and flat either, but it's considerably closer to perfect
than lumber that hasn't been jointed.


c) S2S lumber therefore cannot be assumed to be straight and fa;


Neither can jointed timber be assumed to be straight an fa.

Actually, I'm not so sure about fa.

Apparently you have nothing better to do than to pick at my typos.


d) therefore it should be jointed before use; and finally


It should be jointed if it needs jointing.

Which is exactly equivalent to "it should be jointed if it hasn't been
jointed."


e) if the purchaser does not have the means to joint it himself, he'd better
order it that way or he won't get it that way.


Or he'd better get good at selecting timber.

If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat, then
either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:51 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:



Guess the hyperbole went over your head, Tom. Of course jointed lumber isn't
perfectly straight and flat either, but it's considerably closer to perfect
than lumber that hasn't been jointed.

Yep. I guess you're just too smart for me, Douggie.


c) S2S lumber therefore cannot be assumed to be straight and fa;


Neither can jointed timber be assumed to be straight an fa.

Actually, I'm not so sure about fa.

Apparently you have nothing better to do than to pick at my typos.


Well, you being so smart and all, I thought you might have come up
with some new criteria that I, in my ignorance, was unaware of.

d) therefore it should be jointed before use; and finally


It should be jointed if it needs jointing.

Which is exactly equivalent to "it should be jointed if it hasn't been
jointed."

Nope, it ain't.


e) if the purchaser does not have the means to joint it himself, he'd better
order it that way or he won't get it that way.


Or he'd better get good at selecting timber.

If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat, then
either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.

Might be straight and flat enough, if I select them carefully.

Depends on what they're going to be used for.

A smart fella like you should be able to figure out what that means.




Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:51 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat, then
either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.

Might be straight and flat enough, if I select them carefully.

Well, sure, if you're just putting up shelves in the garage. That's not
exactly woodworking, though, more like home repair.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message...
In article Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:51 GMT,(Doug Miller) wrote:

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat,
then
either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.

Might be straight and flat enough, if I select them carefully.

Well, sure, if you're just putting up shelves in the garage. That's not
exactly woodworking, though, more like home repair.

Open up his signature line and take a look ... then show us yours.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:04:17 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
b) boards which have not been jointed, and yet have at least one face that
is
perfectly straight and flat, with an edge that is also perfectly straight
and perpendicular to that face, are so rare as to be for all practical
purposes nonexistent;

The same can be said for timber that has been jointed.


c) S2S lumber therefore cannot be assumed to be straight and fa;


Neither can jointed timber be assumed to be straight an fa.

Actually, I'm not so sure about fa.


d) therefore it should be jointed before use; and finally


It should be jointed if it needs jointing.


e) if the purchaser does not have the means to joint it himself, he'd
better
order it that way or he won't get it that way.


Or he'd better get good at selecting timber.


Isn't it the truth. Not to mention, if he's a tablesaw and sled type or one
of the other "alternative" jointing devices. he's going to have to make do
with a bunch of bowed stock from ripping and releasing tension on the saw,
or dedicate a machine to the single operation to get his straight edges back
when prepping stock.

Sort of like having a real jointer.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:01:37 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:51 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat, then
either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.

Might be straight and flat enough, if I select them carefully.

Well, sure, if you're just putting up shelves in the garage. That's not
exactly woodworking, though, more like home repair.


Well, let's just elevate the project a little bit and say I'm out to
make a cherry library.

I'm going to order up a thousand board feet of #1 Common cherry,
planed flat on one face and skip planed to 3/16" less than the rough
nominal thickness on the other face. One edge will be SLR1E.

It will be a mixed load of 4/4, 5/4 and 6/4.

I use #1 Common because the price point is advantageous and the timber
is actually more interesting than plain vanilla FAS or Select. Also,
I know that I will have a sufficient number of FAS faces in the pile
for those items that require them, mostly molding, which can be ****y
to run in stock with varying hardness and inclusions.

When I break down the pile I'm going to select out the straightest and
most nearly quartersawn stock for my stiles and rails. These benefit
from being made out of sticks that just naturally wants to be straight
and flat.

I'm then going to select out the most interestingly figured wood for
my door and drawer panels, and the wainscoting panels, if they are in
the job.

I plane my stile and rail stock to final thickness and then cut them
to rough lengths. At this point I check the SLR1E edge with a
straightedge and usually find that it is good enough to sit against
the tablesaw fence. I then rip the stiles and rails to an oversized
width and check the freshly ripped edges for straightness.

It is usually the case that one of the edges is good enough to be run
through the shaper to make the cope and stick. The pieces have not
been face jointed because a stile or rail is only about 2-1/4" to 3"
wide and with careful stock selection I will have faces whose cup will
not exceed that which will be taken out in the sanding process.

I take the panel stock and plane it to final thickness and then rough
cut to length. At this point I rip the stock to no greater than four
inches wide and joint both edges.

I test butt the pieces together on a large work table to arrange the
panels into the most pleasing figure and color. I then pair the
panels up, so that a pair of doors will have a balanced look when
sitting next to each other. The most figured panels go in the center
doors and I work my way out from there.

Once I have worked my way through the stiles and rails, the stock for
the worked molding, and the panels, I'll be left with a need for some
fairly wide sticks for the cornice and base. These can be a little
twisty and very slightly cupped because I have the opportunity to boss
them around with clamps, glue, and fasteners that will be hidden when
the project is finished.

The greatest challenge is obviously the panels. I don't flip my faces
in gluing up the panels because I don't want to deal with the
washboarding that this encourages. The panel will either be flat or
will have a gentle cup across its width, which I deal with by running
the panel, or half the panel, if it is too wide, through the planer,
taking very light passes and essentially face jointing the panel.

If there is more than moderate twist, I shim the panel and lightly
pass it through the planer.

This is the only instance of what might properly be called face
jointing in the entire project and it is only done after the panels
have been glued up - the individual sticks have not been face jointed.

The panels are cut to final length and width and the doors are glued
up. The fact that the stiles are oversized in width means that I can
trim off the clamp bruises when the glue up is dry.



The leftover stock is used to make furniture...




Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

Well, let's just elevate the project a little bit and say I'm out to
make a cherry library.

relunctantly snipped

The leftover stock is used to make furniture...

ROTFLMAO ... "I've showed you mine, now show me yours!"

You accepting apprentices? Save me a spot!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

The leftover stock is used to make furniture...

And some dare call you a troll.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:30:39 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

Well, let's just elevate the project a little bit and say I'm out to
make a cherry library.

relunctantly snipped

The leftover stock is used to make furniture...

ROTFLMAO ... "I've showed you mine, now show me yours!"

You accepting apprentices? Save me a spot!


Your work already shows that you are way beyond apprenticing to
anyone, Swing.

That line about the rest being used to make furniture sounds like more
of a joke than it actually is.

That library would have been bid at FAS prices for maybe 800 bf net.

I pay the same for a thousand bf of #1 Common, (and get free delivery
because I am at a thousand feet, along with the price break that goes
along with) select out the stuff for the job and get to play with the
rest.

The overage is stuff that is too "interesting" to be included in the
process of building casework in an efficient way.

It is damned nice stuff, however, albeit needing more TLC for it to
shine.

These sticks and pieces really need full balls to the wall stock prep
and a jointer is priceless in rendering them into useful stock.

I'd recommend that anyone who is used to buying only FAS and Select
try dropping down a grade. There is a sweet spot in the price/yield
graph that can really work for you.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Thanks, Nice to get a wise view point.

Mike M


On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:19:46 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 21:01:37 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:51 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat, then
either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.

Might be straight and flat enough, if I select them carefully.

Well, sure, if you're just putting up shelves in the garage. That's not
exactly woodworking, though, more like home repair.


Well, let's just elevate the project a little bit and say I'm out to
make a cherry library.

I'm going to order up a thousand board feet of #1 Common cherry,
planed flat on one face and skip planed to 3/16" less than the rough
nominal thickness on the other face. One edge will be SLR1E.

It will be a mixed load of 4/4, 5/4 and 6/4.

I use #1 Common because the price point is advantageous and the timber
is actually more interesting than plain vanilla FAS or Select. Also,
I know that I will have a sufficient number of FAS faces in the pile
for those items that require them, mostly molding, which can be ****y
to run in stock with varying hardness and inclusions.

When I break down the pile I'm going to select out the straightest and
most nearly quartersawn stock for my stiles and rails. These benefit
from being made out of sticks that just naturally wants to be straight
and flat.

I'm then going to select out the most interestingly figured wood for
my door and drawer panels, and the wainscoting panels, if they are in
the job.

I plane my stile and rail stock to final thickness and then cut them
to rough lengths. At this point I check the SLR1E edge with a
straightedge and usually find that it is good enough to sit against
the tablesaw fence. I then rip the stiles and rails to an oversized
width and check the freshly ripped edges for straightness.

It is usually the case that one of the edges is good enough to be run
through the shaper to make the cope and stick. The pieces have not
been face jointed because a stile or rail is only about 2-1/4" to 3"
wide and with careful stock selection I will have faces whose cup will
not exceed that which will be taken out in the sanding process.

I take the panel stock and plane it to final thickness and then rough
cut to length. At this point I rip the stock to no greater than four
inches wide and joint both edges.

I test butt the pieces together on a large work table to arrange the
panels into the most pleasing figure and color. I then pair the
panels up, so that a pair of doors will have a balanced look when
sitting next to each other. The most figured panels go in the center
doors and I work my way out from there.

Once I have worked my way through the stiles and rails, the stock for
the worked molding, and the panels, I'll be left with a need for some
fairly wide sticks for the cornice and base. These can be a little
twisty and very slightly cupped because I have the opportunity to boss
them around with clamps, glue, and fasteners that will be hidden when
the project is finished.

The greatest challenge is obviously the panels. I don't flip my faces
in gluing up the panels because I don't want to deal with the
washboarding that this encourages. The panel will either be flat or
will have a gentle cup across its width, which I deal with by running
the panel, or half the panel, if it is too wide, through the planer,
taking very light passes and essentially face jointing the panel.

If there is more than moderate twist, I shim the panel and lightly
pass it through the planer.

This is the only instance of what might properly be called face
jointing in the entire project and it is only done after the panels
have been glued up - the individual sticks have not been face jointed.

The panels are cut to final length and width and the doors are glued
up. The fact that the stiles are oversized in width means that I can
trim off the clamp bruises when the glue up is dry.



The leftover stock is used to make furniture...




Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article , Tom Watson wrote:
[snip]
It is usually the case that one of the edges is good enough to be run
through the shaper to make the cope and stick. The pieces have not
been face jointed because a stile or rail is only about 2-1/4" to 3"
wide and with careful stock selection I will have faces whose cup will
not exceed that which will be taken out in the sanding process.

I agree more or less with your statements about removing cup... but I see you
have done nothing at all about bow...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Tom Watson wrote:
[snip]
It is usually the case that one of the edges is good enough to be run
through the shaper to make the cope and stick. The pieces have not
been face jointed because a stile or rail is only about 2-1/4" to 3"
wide and with careful stock selection I will have faces whose cup will
not exceed that which will be taken out in the sanding process.

I agree more or less with your statements about removing cup... but I see you
have done nothing at all about bow...


Then you must have missed the part about selecting the stock.

Christ, Miller, you'd argue with a ****ing stump.

Bow this!

In article .com, "Tom Watson" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Tom Watson
wrote:
[snip]
It is usually the case that one of the edges is good enough to be run
through the shaper to make the cope and stick. The pieces have not
been face jointed because a stile or rail is only about 2-1/4" to 3"
wide and with careful stock selection I will have faces whose cup will
not exceed that which will be taken out in the sanding process.

I agree more or less with your statements about removing cup... but I see you
have done nothing at all about bow...


Then you must have missed the part about selecting the stock.

If you think you're selecting stock that's already completely free of bow,
next time you head for the lumberyard you should visit the optometrist on the
way.

Christ, Miller, you'd argue with a ****ing stump.

Guess you're right... I'm arguing with you.

Bow this!

You know, Tom, just like you, I miss the old days. I can remember a time
in the distant past when you actually made useful contributions, instead of
insults and personal abuse.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Whap!

(sound of miller being klownhammered into...i was going to say
'insensibility' but that would be redundant, wouldn't it)

You need to clear your head.

Maybe you should take up a hobby.

I hear that woodworking is very relaxing.


w.