"Roger amd Missy Behnke" wrote in message
...
Every buy something from a traditional retailer or catalog warehouse then
have it shipped? There is usually a shipping AND handling charge. Are
these merchants being unethical?


They can be, depending on how they do it. I have no problem with a shipping
and handling charge but they can be used in a bogus manor. In the case of
these EBay sellers, many of them are using the S&H charge to both rip off
PayPal and EBay as well as fool the buyer into thinking they are getting the
item for less money. Another problem with this crap that may not apply to
EBay so much but could happen is screwing you if you return it. You buy an
interesting widget for the unbelievably low price of $19.99 but it has a
$200 S&H charge. You the buyer reasons (like many in here have) as this
thing is easily worth the $220 combined cost, probably more like $300 and it
has a money back guarantee so who cares how the price is laid out. So you
order it and it shows up a week later in perfect condition but it proves to
be both an advertising scam and a piece of junk. No problem you say, it has
a guarantee and send it back for your refund. The seller of course honors
his commitment and sends you back a refund check ....... for $19.99. Hey,
wait a minute, it cost you far more than that and you call the seller to get
this corrected. His response is... I'm sorry Sir, but you paid $19.99 for
the product which we fully refunded, the $200 was payment for our excellent
shipping and handling service and is not refundable.

--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

Toller wrote:


And what is lame or dishonest about it?

So if I sold you a car for $100 and charged you a $15,000
delivery fee that wouldn't be lame? (and *of course* you can't
pick it up dummy)

Okay, the car costs $15,100. Is that lame or dishonest? Seems
perfectly honest and straight forward to me.

Then we're at an impasse. We'll leave it at that.

And who said you can't pick it up?

sigh

A.M. Wood wrote:

There is absolutely NOTHING unethical about charging a fee for a
necessary service as long as the fee is disclosed in advance.

We all have our own ideas about what is ethical and what exactly is a
necessary service I suppose.

To me it's a simple matter. To me sellers that offer a low low price
and make up for it with very high and mandatory "shipping & handling"
charges are unethical and of low character... and buyer be very aware.
You know who you are and you know full well that what you are doing is
wrong. My opinion.

In article ,
Joe Barta wrote:

A.M. Wood wrote:

There is absolutely NOTHING unethical about charging a fee for a
necessary service as long as the fee is disclosed in advance.

We all have our own ideas about what is ethical and what exactly is a
necessary service I suppose.

To me it's a simple matter. To me sellers that offer a low low price
and make up for it with very high and mandatory "shipping & handling"
charges are unethical and of low character... and buyer be very aware.
You know who you are and you know full well that what you are doing is
wrong. My opinion.


eBay is who these people are "cheating", and yes, when a seller lists
and item for $1 and charges $50 for "shipping and handling" they are
cheating eBay out of the fees that someone more ethical would be paying
(and yes I have seen those exact numbers)

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

On 6 Jan 2006 13:26:16 -0800, wrote:

yea, the shipping scame is pretty common, and cheap as hell.
If i see a seller who is going nuts with the shipping, i always send
them an email asking them if they made a mistake and mean 5.00 for
shipping instead of 50.00, etc etc, or something along those lines to
try and **** them off.

Actually, you need to report them to eBay. It is a violation of eBay
rules to pad shipping costs like that and they will end auctions that
do so if it's ridiculously obvious.

Brian Henderson wrote:

On 6 Jan 2006 13:26:16 -0800, wrote:


yea, the shipping scame is pretty common, and cheap as hell.
If i see a seller who is going nuts with the shipping, i always send
them an email asking them if they made a mistake and mean 5.00 for
shipping instead of 50.00, etc etc, or something along those lines to
try and **** them off.


Actually, you need to report them to eBay. It is a violation of eBay
rules to pad shipping costs like that and they will end auctions that
do so if it's ridiculously obvious.
I just did a random check of shipping charges on Ebay. I looked up cell
phones. Many of the shipping charges hover close to $40!

Dave

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:11:47 -0600, "todd" wrote:

Well, it's a little harder to build the price in on an auction. Since the
seller doesn't know what the final price will be, it makes sense for the
shipping and handling to be factored in by the buyer. I think it's
different for a seller who auctions something here and there than it is for
an established business who actually knows their fixed and variable costs
and can factor them into the sales price. For me, I take the actual
shipping cost and throw in $2 for supplies. I don't think it's unethical to
break out a handling cost. What I think is unethical is one of the other
stories in this thread where the bidder asked for the shipping cost prior to
bidding and then when the auction is over a handling charge is sneaked in.

The seller doesn't know what the price of the product is? Of course
they do, they bought it and are now trying to sell it! If it costs
them $10, then they should set the minimum bid no lower than $10. If
they know it's going to cost them an additional $2 for shipping
supplies, then they should set the minimum bid no lower than $12.

The problem is that these people are setting their minimum bids at $1,
then charging $30 for shipping because they want to make up the profit
for their item without having eBay charge them fees for it. If the
auction goes to $20 and they charge $30 shipping, then they make $50
on the deal, rather than if the item went for $20 and they charged
what it actually cost to ship, which might be $5.

In the end, shipping isn't supposed to be a way to make a profit, it's
supposed to be a way to get the product to a customer.

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:14:33 -0600, "todd" wrote:

It is against one's user agreement with PayPal to "charge back" PayPal fees.

And you have to report it to PayPal and they'll do something about it.

That's also contrary to eBay policy. I don't know why they don't crack down
on it, since it's money out of their pocket.

Part of the problem is that eBay doesn't have enough people to watch
the auctions and catch all of this without being told about it, and
the other is that eBay's claim to fame is having millions of auctions
going on. If it starts going after a lot of the small-time cheats,
etc. they wouldn't be able to claim that.

If you take the time to report a violation to eBay, they will usually
step in and stop it, but if you think they're going to go looking on
their own, you're out of luck.

Brian Henderson wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:14:33 -0600, "todd" wrote:


It is against one's user agreement with PayPal to "charge back" PayPal fees.


And you have to report it to PayPal and they'll do something about it.


That's also contrary to eBay policy. I don't know why they don't crack down
on it, since it's money out of their pocket.


Part of the problem is that eBay doesn't have enough people to watch
the auctions and catch all of this without being told about it, and
the other is that eBay's claim to fame is having millions of auctions
going on. If it starts going after a lot of the small-time cheats,
etc. they wouldn't be able to claim that.

If you take the time to report a violation to eBay, they will usually
step in and stop it, but if you think they're going to go looking on
their own, you're out of luck.


I'd think eBay is well aware of high shipping charges. Pretty obvious
to the casual observer, even. 2006 might see some new Ebay rules.

Dave

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 04:39:26 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

So if I sold you a car for $100 and charged you a $15,000 delivery fee
that wouldn't be lame? (and *of course* you can't pick it up dummy)

Okay, the car costs $15,100. Is that lame or dishonest? Seems perfectly
honest and straight forward to me.

It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping.

And who said you can't pick it up? I sold a large piece of exercise
equipment on Ebay. For anyone wanting it shipped I charged "the actual
freight cost plus $50 handling" The buyer paid $355 for the machine, $50
for handling, and $65 for freight. The buyer knew the story before bidding
and was delighted with her bargain.

Most sellers on eBay won't allow you to pick up your merchandise even
if you live next door to them. In fact, in all the years that I've
been on eBay, I've only run into one person who would allow a personal
pick up and that's because he had an actual physical store-front.
Otherwise, you get it shipped, no matter what.

Greg O wrote:

Charge what ever you want for shipping an handling! Just be up front about
it and I will decide if the total price is in line. I refuse to bid if the
shipping and handling is not shown.
My neighbor "won" an auction on Ebay lately. He sent an e-mail for a request
for shipping charges before he bid. After the bid was done the seller sent
him a e-mail for the total, with shipping, and HANDLING! The shipping was as
quoted, but the added handling charge was more than the shipping. It was a
small item, but with all the charges it was more than he would have wanted
bid/pay for the item.

I agree, if the S/H charges are listed, or seller states he won't charge
a handling fee, it's possible to figure out what your max bid will be.
It's a feature.

Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page?

er
--
email not valid

Charles Self wrote:

I got a friend to Ebay some old books for me, stuff I hadn't looked at in a
decade or more, but that was useful and costly when bought and might be
useful to others. Most sold for $1.50 or so. I listed a flat $5 shipping, no
deals. Most cost $1.40 for postage and a buck for the envelope. I "made" $2
or so extra on each book because of the postage...but I had to address the
envelopes, drive them into town and stand in line to ship the suckers.

My decision: I'd rather throw the books away next time it happens. It's a
PITA, got my buddy six or seven neutral feedbacks because of the shipping
costs, and basically didn't bring in enough to cover the time and energy of
entering the books on Ebay.

I don't understand this. Why not start the bidding at $3.50 and charge
a $2.50 S/H fee?

er
--
email not valid

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:11:47 -0600, "todd" wrote:

Well, it's a little harder to build the price in on an auction. Since
the
seller doesn't know what the final price will be, it makes sense for the
shipping and handling to be factored in by the buyer. I think it's
different for a seller who auctions something here and there than it is
for
an established business who actually knows their fixed and variable costs
and can factor them into the sales price. For me, I take the actual
shipping cost and throw in $2 for supplies. I don't think it's unethical
to
break out a handling cost. What I think is unethical is one of the other
stories in this thread where the bidder asked for the shipping cost prior
to
bidding and then when the auction is over a handling charge is sneaked
in.

The seller doesn't know what the price of the product is? Of course
they do, they bought it and are now trying to sell it! If it costs
them $10, then they should set the minimum bid no lower than $10. If
they know it's going to cost them an additional $2 for shipping
supplies, then they should set the minimum bid no lower than $12.

The problem is that these people are setting their minimum bids at $1,
then charging $30 for shipping because they want to make up the profit
for their item without having eBay charge them fees for it. If the
auction goes to $20 and they charge $30 shipping, then they make $50
on the deal, rather than if the item went for $20 and they charged
what it actually cost to ship, which might be $5.

In the end, shipping isn't supposed to be a way to make a profit, it's
supposed to be a way to get the product to a customer.

I was responding to an earlier comment that no one should ever charge
"handling" fees of any kind. Obviously, eBayers participating in final
value fee avoidance by charging very high shipping costs should be killed.
I'm talking about adding a few bucks to the actual shipping cost as a
handling charge. What difference does it make if it's included in the price
of the product or not? Either way, the buyer pays. Anyone who thinks the
buyer doesn't pay is kidding himself. As long as it isn't excessive, I
don't see a problem.

todd

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:14:33 -0600, "todd" wrote:

It is against one's user agreement with PayPal to "charge back" PayPal
fees.

And you have to report it to PayPal and they'll do something about it.

As is the way with most everthing, action will only get taken when someone
points it out.

That's also contrary to eBay policy. I don't know why they don't crack
down
on it, since it's money out of their pocket.

Part of the problem is that eBay doesn't have enough people to watch
the auctions and catch all of this without being told about it, and
the other is that eBay's claim to fame is having millions of auctions
going on. If it starts going after a lot of the small-time cheats,
etc. they wouldn't be able to claim that.

If you take the time to report a violation to eBay, they will usually
step in and stop it, but if you think they're going to go looking on
their own, you're out of luck.

I have reported sellers to eBay who were jacking up shipping costs.

todd

Toller wrote:
"Joe Barta" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:
[uh, I think I got that right...]

And what is lame or dishonest about it?

So if I sold you a car for $100 and charged you a $15,000 delivery fee
that wouldn't be lame? (and *of course* you can't pick it up dummy)


Okay, the car costs $15,100. Is that lame or dishonest? Seems perfectly
honest and straight forward to me.

It's dishonest especially when the seller has somehow misrepresented the
item such that it doesn't have the value to you you thought it did...
and the seller won't reimburse you for the "shipping" charges. It happens.

Ebay rules to live by:

1. 98.5% feedback is marginal, you have a good chance of being
disappointed if you bid on this ID's item. This is hard to judge
though, being stochastic, especially when the ID has less than several
hundred sales.

2. Read the feedback. If it's marginal it may be because some whiny
fussbudgets needed their swing at the world. Conversely, people are
insanely reluctant to leave negative feedback, but may drop hints in the
comments. I have a comment to make about some chisels I got recently
but I've never left negative feedback (I follow these rules and am
about to break that record... severe pitting and deep toolmarks that
were neither pictured nor described.*

3. Only bid on stuff you can calculate the final cost out of your pocket
for. Obviously it's nice to know what you're going to pay, and knowing
the max amount you're willing to pay you can adjust your bid accordingly.

4. If it smells like bad fish, it probably is bad fish.

5. Know the value of what you're bidding on.

6. If you're unsure about something, ask (before the last two days of
the auction...)

7. Don't bid on poorly photographed or inadequately described items.
This is the hard one. "Good condition", "great user", etc., seem to
have very different meaning for some people than for myself.

8. Don't let that stupid clown (who doesn't know what he's willing to
pay for the item) know what you're willing to pay.

9. Pray to the gods of the shadows that a veil has been cast over that
one item you must have, that no others will find it.

* Contact them? I haven't because what they did, or didn't do, is
already done... I'm keeping the chisels because the pitting is far up
the back of the chisel (they're 12" blades) and the toolmarks are
cosmetic problems on something I got for using. But still, they were
given a "shine" on a buffing wheel to make them look passably good for
sale on ebay, and given the other items ID was selling they were
obviously savvy to old-toolers requirements.

er
--
email not valid

"Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page? "

IIRC Ebay does not charge to have the shipping calculator. They also
allow the seller to add a handling fee in the calculation and that fee
doesn't appear separately in the calculated shipping cost the buyer
sees.

It is wrong in my opinion to fault a seller for adding a REASONABLE
charge for packing materials into the equation.

"Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page? "

IIRC Ebay does not charge to have the shipping calculator. They also
allow the seller to add a handling fee in the calculation and that fee
doesn't appear separately in the calculated shipping cost the buyer
sees.

It is wrong in my opinion to fault a seller for adding a REASONABLE
charge for packing materials into the equation.

"Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page? "

IIRC Ebay does not charge to have the shipping calculator. They also
allow the seller to add a handling fee in the calculation and that fee
doesn't appear separately in the calculated shipping cost the buyer
sees.

It is wrong in my opinion to fault a seller for adding a REASONABLE
charge for packing materials into the equation.

"Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page? "

IIRC Ebay does not charge to have the shipping calculator. They also
allow the seller to add a handling fee in the calculation and that fee
doesn't appear separately in the calculated shipping cost the buyer
sees.

It is wrong in my opinion to fault a seller for adding a REASONABLE
charge for packing materials into the equation.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

"It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping."

Maybe somewhere that is true. But here in the U.S. that shipping
revenue is included in the calculation of taxable profits. The seller
most definitely is required to pay income tax on that income.

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 01:42:48 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On 6 Jan 2006 13:26:16 -0800, wrote:

yea, the shipping scame is pretty common, and cheap as hell.
If i see a seller who is going nuts with the shipping, i always send
them an email asking them if they made a mistake and mean 5.00 for
shipping instead of 50.00, etc etc, or something along those lines to
try and **** them off.

Actually, you need to report them to eBay. It is a violation of eBay
rules to pad shipping costs like that and they will end auctions that
do so if it's ridiculously obvious.

How do you report these issues to Ebay. I keep looking for the
"Contact Us About This Item" or the "Report Ebay Violation" buttons
but they seem to be eluding me..

Not these labels you can't buy in Walmart, but appreciate the sentiment.

In article ,
Enoch Root wrote:

...

Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page?

Not one penny, nor do they charge a fee on "handling" charges

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

In article ,
Ba r r y wrote:

...

That depends on the tax.

In this case, it's eBay's sellers fee. There isn't one on handling
chargers.

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

In article ,
David wrote:

....


I'd think eBay is well aware of high shipping charges. Pretty obvious
to the casual observer, even. 2006 might see some new Ebay rules.

It's a rule change I am also expecting, since it is costing the
revenue. Like their rule change (a few years ago) on extra charges for
the % PayPal gets (but only for high dollar/volume sellers)

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:40:54 GMT, TomL wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 01:42:48 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On 6 Jan 2006 13:26:16 -0800, wrote:

Actually, you need to report them to eBay. It is a violation of eBay
rules to pad shipping costs like that and they will end auctions that
do so if it's ridiculously obvious.

How do you report these issues to Ebay. I keep looking for the
"Contact Us About This Item" or the "Report Ebay Violation" buttons
but they seem to be eluding me..

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...umventing.html

You have to open the "additonal information" tab. I agree they aren't
going out of their way to make this accessible, but if they had a
button on the auction page they'd get 100k complaints a day 5% of
which would be valid.

You see the bogus shipping charges the most on things that there are a
lot of competing sellers. Not only do they get more profit by
avoiding fees, they get you to click on their auction instead of the
other guys because of their lower price. Consequently everyone
selling that item has to do it too.

If you look at postal scales, almost everyone is trying to charge you
an additional fee for the a/c adapter that comes in the box.


-Leuf

Enoch Root writes:

Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page?

I have never used the shipping calculator. I just use a flat fee that
sometimes makes me a few bucks and sometimes I lose a few bucks depending
on the buyer's location.

The shipping calculator can have handling fees added to the actual cost of
shipping. This way, the seller can rip off all buyers equally! With
fixed shipping, the shipping "profit" can be more or less depending on the
actual shipping charges.

Brian Elfert

Enoch Root wrote:

I don't understand this. Why not start the bidding at $3.50 and
charge a $2.50 S/H fee?

He figgered what every other seller figgers... they'd sell more with a
lower price. My have sold even more if he had just listed them as free
with $6.50 shipping. Or maybe free, AND he'd throw in a $5 gift
certificate for Dennys... just pay the $11.50 shipping. Nothing
unethical about that, is there? Errthing up front, ain't it?

Enoch Root wrote:

4. If it smells like bad fish, it probably is bad fish.

Probably the most important bit of advice. Like the guy that spends
$59.95 on a magic cream that will grow hair on his bald spot in 10
days. When it doesn't, he feels ripped off. When the company jerks him
around about a refund, he feels ripped off. In my opinion the dude
ripped his own fool self off the minute he paid money for a magic
cream that he KNEW wasn't going to work.

It never ceases to amaze me the mentality that some folk have. This
way of thinking that absolves them of any responsibility when things
go wrong. Buyer be ware. And as a great man once said... "If it smells
like bad fish, it probably is bad fish."

-Joe Barta

wow - my S/H woes got more responses than I expected - no time to read
through them all "_

Anyway, im not bitching about the person who charges a couple bucks
handling fees - it makes sense and is fine to offset the cost/gas of
going to the post office, time spent foing so, etc.

My complaint was soley for the people (and there are plenty of these on
EBay) who try to hook you with a an item thats:
- Worth around $50.00
- Auction is listed for $10.00
- And hope people wont notice the $75.00 shipping and handling fee.

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 04:39:26 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


So if I sold you a car for $100 and charged you a $15,000 delivery fee
that wouldn't be lame? (and *of course* you can't pick it up dummy)


Okay, the car costs $15,100. Is that lame or dishonest? Seems perfectly
honest and straight forward to me.


It's very dishonest when you realize that the seller is only paying
"taxes" on the $100 and is getting the $15,000 completely tax-free
because it's counted as shipping.

Shipping isn't tax-free.

er
--
email not valid

Ralph E Lindberg wrote:
In article ,
Enoch Root wrote:

Can any sellers say whether Ebay charges extra to have the shipping
calculator on your page?

Not one penny, nor do they charge a fee on "handling" charges

Thanks. If they don't use that, or a flat fee, then no way.

er
--
email not valid

Brian Elfert wrote:
Enoch Root writes:

The shipping calculator can have handling fees added to the actual cost of
shipping. This way, the seller can rip off all buyers equally! With
fixed shipping, the shipping "profit" can be more or less depending on the
actual shipping charges.

Yes, but at least I can see what I'm going to pay...

OT: The marvel of the ebay system is that what I end up paying is
determined by what someone else decides he or she wants to pay, modulo
what I will pay.

er
--
email not valid