Just checked out the Panasonic web site. First thing that struck me were
the prices! $510 for the top cordless drill model (15.6V Multi Drill &
Driver with 1/2" Keyless Chuck). As you say, all nice and compact. But the
high price made me think that Panasonic tools must be an elite brand. Then
checked out prices for these very same Panasonic models at several online
retail tool vendor sites, where I found the prices to be much more in line
with the competition. For example only $299 (virtually half the price) for
the above model at Tool Authority
(http://www.toolauthority.com/manufacturers.php?MID=21). One observation
though, in general the Panasonic cordless driver lineup seems to offer
somewhat less torque than competition such as Hitachi or Bosch drivers, even
in models where the voltages are the same. But I guess the extra compact
design of the Panasonic drivers I guess could very well account for this.

BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity? Up til now I had just assumed
this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the amperage rating
of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12. for 12v. cordless
models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models] yields maximum energy
output [or consumption, respectively] per hour). But I'd like to somehow
find out for certain from someone if I am on the right track in this or
not... Because if this is true how can the most powerful cordless tool
possibly keep pace with an average corded one which has far higher, both,
amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.


Ken


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

[...] IMO, Panasonic is better than either. Small, powerful.

"KMoiarty" wrote in message
BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity?


Up til now I had just assumed
this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the amperage rating
of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12. for 12v. cordless
models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models] yields maximum energy
output [or consumption, respectively] per hour). But I'd like to somehow
find out for certain from someone if I am on the right track in this or
not... Because if this is true how can the most powerful cordless tool
possibly keep pace with an average corded one which has far higher, both,
amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.

The AH rating is how much power is available. Some tools use that power
more efficiently than others.

None can truly keep up with a corded tool long term. They may have equal
power for a short time, but there are compromises to get decent run time
from the batteries.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

"KMoiarty" wrote in message
BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity?


Up til now I had just assumed
this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the amperage
rating of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12. for 12v.
cordless models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models] yields
maximum energy output [or consumption, respectively] per hour). But I'd
like to somehow find out for certain from someone if I am on the right
track in this or not... Because if this is true how can the most powerful
cordless tool possibly keep pace with an average corded one which has far
higher, both, amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.

The AH rating is how much power is available. Some tools use that power
more efficiently than others.

None can truly keep up with a corded tool long term. They may have equal
power for a short time, but there are compromises to get decent run time
from the batteries.


Going to be interesting to see how the new Milwaukee V28 Ion line holds up.

KMoiarty wrote:
Just checked out the Panasonic web site. First thing that struck me were
the prices! $510 for the top cordless drill model (15.6V Multi Drill &
Driver with 1/2" Keyless Chuck). As you say, all nice and compact. But the
high price made me think that Panasonic tools must be an elite brand. Then
checked out prices for these very same Panasonic models at several online
retail tool vendor sites, where I found the prices to be much more in line
with the competition. For example only $299 (virtually half the price) for
the above model at Tool Authority
(http://www.toolauthority.com/manufacturers.php?MID=21). One observation
though, in general the Panasonic cordless driver lineup seems to offer
somewhat less torque than competition such as Hitachi or Bosch drivers, even
in models where the voltages are the same. But I guess the extra compact
design of the Panasonic drivers I guess could very well account for this.

BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity? Up til now I had just assumed
this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the amperage rating
of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12. for 12v. cordless
models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models] yields maximum energy
output [or consumption, respectively] per hour). But I'd like to somehow
find out for certain from someone if I am on the right track in this or
not... Because if this is true how can the most powerful cordless tool
possibly keep pace with an average corded one which has far higher, both,
amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.

Ken,
You are right that amp-hours is a measure of battery capacity. But
it's amps X hours instead of amps per hour. So, a 2 amp-hour battery
will deliver 2 amps for 1 hour or 1 amp for 2 hours (at its rated
voltage). Amp-hours gives you a measure of run-time, but I think it's
irrelevant to most of us. That's because, unless your drill is in
continuous use at high load, your second battery will charge long
before your first runs down. I guess if you have to climb down off a
ladder every time you need to change batteries, more amp-hours would
get to be more important.

I'm on my 5th cordless drill and currently own three that work. Of all
my tools, I consider a cordless drill to be the most indispensable. I
use one for almost every single project around the house or in the
shop.

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

For $120 or so, you can buy a top quality 12 volt drill from your
favorite manufacturer. Forget the specs, buy the one that feels best
in your hand. Then spend another $100 or so for a good corded drill
for those very rare occasions when your cordless just isn't up to the
task. You'll pass the corded drill down to your grandchildren, and you
have less than half the money tied up in disposables.

Some people just like to have the "best" of whatever they own. I'm one
of those too. But I've come to the conclusion that chasing the "best"
in cordless is just too expensive.

Your mileage may vary

DonkeyHody
"Give a hungry man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish
.. . . and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day."

Ken,

Listen to DonkeyHody, best advice here.

I did what he talks about only I'll go one better, buy a top quality corded
drill at a used tool store, I got a Milwaukee 1/2" corded hole shooter for
60 bucks at a used tool store and I found a Dewalt 3/8" 14.4 volt cordelss
at the local home center one day for 100 bucks with two batteries/charger.
Total investment 160 bucks,

A used Milwaukee (corded) drill is a good investment, these things are like
tanks, they'll outlive our kids kids.

My two cents,

Paul


"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
ups.com...

KMoiarty wrote:
Just checked out the Panasonic web site. First thing that struck me were
the prices! $510 for the top cordless drill model (15.6V Multi Drill &
Driver with 1/2" Keyless Chuck). As you say, all nice and compact. But
the
high price made me think that Panasonic tools must be an elite brand.
Then
checked out prices for these very same Panasonic models at several online
retail tool vendor sites, where I found the prices to be much more in
line
with the competition. For example only $299 (virtually half the price)
for
the above model at Tool Authority
(http://www.toolauthority.com/manufacturers.php?MID=21). One observation
though, in general the Panasonic cordless driver lineup seems to offer
somewhat less torque than competition such as Hitachi or Bosch drivers,
even
in models where the voltages are the same. But I guess the extra compact
design of the Panasonic drivers I guess could very well account for this.

BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity? Up til now I had just
assumed
this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the amperage
rating
of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12. for 12v. cordless
models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models] yields maximum energy
output [or consumption, respectively] per hour). But I'd like to somehow
find out for certain from someone if I am on the right track in this or
not... Because if this is true how can the most powerful cordless tool
possibly keep pace with an average corded one which has far higher, both,
amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.

Ken,
You are right that amp-hours is a measure of battery capacity. But
it's amps X hours instead of amps per hour. So, a 2 amp-hour battery
will deliver 2 amps for 1 hour or 1 amp for 2 hours (at its rated
voltage). Amp-hours gives you a measure of run-time, but I think it's
irrelevant to most of us. That's because, unless your drill is in
continuous use at high load, your second battery will charge long
before your first runs down. I guess if you have to climb down off a
ladder every time you need to change batteries, more amp-hours would
get to be more important.

I'm on my 5th cordless drill and currently own three that work. Of all
my tools, I consider a cordless drill to be the most indispensable. I
use one for almost every single project around the house or in the
shop.

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

For $120 or so, you can buy a top quality 12 volt drill from your
favorite manufacturer. Forget the specs, buy the one that feels best
in your hand. Then spend another $100 or so for a good corded drill
for those very rare occasions when your cordless just isn't up to the
task. You'll pass the corded drill down to your grandchildren, and you
have less than half the money tied up in disposables.

Some people just like to have the "best" of whatever they own. I'm one
of those too. But I've come to the conclusion that chasing the "best"
in cordless is just too expensive.

Your mileage may vary

DonkeyHody
"Give a hungry man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish
. . . and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day."

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool.

I bought a Rdgid 12V at HD. Lifetime service warranty which incudes the
battery.
Plenty of power, nice chuck. Recommended.

Mitch

Wow... agree with everyone here. I have spent $$$ on different
cordless drills, and they are something I use every day.

Years ago, I bought a 14V Ryobi for $99, as I could not justify buying
the 18V DeWalt I really wanted for $329. I bought the DeWalt when
there was a sale on them for $299 or something like that. Along the
way, I got a great deal on a 14V Sears Professional 14V and bought a
Hitachi 12V for some reason or another.

All but the Sears Professional (the newest) are dead now. The
batteries/drills lasted about 3-4 years a piece, with the last year or
so of each needing the second battery to be on the ready at any time.
Oddly, the one that was used the hardest was the Ryobi, and it still
works for my roofing guys to use to drive about 25 1/2" screws before
dying. Perfect for them, as it is covered with tar and scuffed beyond
recognition. That drill has paid for itself about 100 times over.

The DeWalt 18V was the one I used the most, and you will come to
appreciate the amp hour rating when you are hanging and finishing
doors. Drilling out a door lockset, the the deadbolt, the peephole,
the extra security devices, attaching the closer and then fitting the
hinges is not for a weenie drill. The DeWalt worked great, and it last
about 3 years with me using it just like a corded drill. But when the
batteries died to about 20 minutes of use and I was contemplating a new
battery, the transmission gears gave up, so now I am using the Sears.
The Sears has the same amount of torque and it is a smaller drill. It
seems to have about the same battery life, and it was on sale for $99
in the display/scratch/dent basket when I bought it. It seems to be a
pretty good drill.

So I agree with all here. Find a drill that feels good in your hand,
and seems to have some balance. If you are using it for home projects
and need it to drive 40-50 screws and drill a few holes every once in a
while, almost anything you buy will be fine. One of my subs even buys
those $19 POS drills at Harbor Freight and loves them since they are so
cheap. He has to charge them for six hours or something along those
lines, but they seem pretty tough.

Robert

MB wrote:
However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool.

I bought a Rdgid 12V at HD. Lifetime service warranty which incudes the
battery.
Plenty of power, nice chuck. Recommended.


I forgot about Rigid. As long as their lifetime warranty applies to
batteries, they get my vote on cordless, assuming you like the tool at
all.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

On 29 Dec 2005 06:11:07 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

wrote:
I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

Uhh, assuming the battery packs were built using standard cell sizes.
My 18V battery packs certainly don't look like they contain 15 AA cells
inside (AAA won't provide enough current).

Mike

wrote:

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

You may be able to do that, but I don't think it's a viable option for
most of us. First problem is getting into the plastic battery case.
Mine seems to be fused together with no way to get in without
destroying it. Next problem is where to get replacement batteries of
the correct dimensions and voltages. Not saying it can't be done, I'm
just not sure it's worth the trouble.

DonkeyHody
"We talk about the Good Old Days, but we weren't Good, we weren't Old,
and we're talking about the Nights."

wrote:

wrote:
I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

Uhh, assuming the battery packs were built using standard cell sizes.
My 18V battery packs certainly don't look like they contain 15 AA cells
inside (AAA won't provide enough current).

Mike
There are a bunch more odd sizes used for rechargeables. Places like
www.digikey.com and www.mouser.com sell replacement batteries in these
sizes and will even spot weld them to the correct config you give them so
you don't have to try soldering them (bad).
Lithium Ion batteries are still hard to find though.
I priced out what it would cost to rebuild my 8 year old 9.6v makita packs
when they started getting to where they wouldn't hold a charge for very
long a couple years ago (bought the drill in 95). A new battery cost $29
then and to buy the cells it would cost me $24 per pack plus shipping to
get them to me. I just bought a couple new battery packs and bought the
angle drill kit which gave me another charger and battery so I now have
three batteries and a couple chargers plus the various drills and saws I've
picked up over the last 10 years which all share the same pack type. I put
the old batteries away so when i do need to rebuild the new ones, I'll just
rebuild all 5 at once as the cost of a new pack has gone up to $39.

Reminds me of what I did with my Phillips/Norelco cordless shaver a few
years ago when the built-in Ni-Cads began to fade. When I took the unit
apart I discovered that the batteries had been installed by the manufacturer
in such a way as to prevent anyone from replacing them. I took this as a
challenge to "my rights" as a consumer and after a few days of thinking it
through plus asking key questions, figured out a way to successfully replace
the worn out Ni-Cads with new ones. The shaver is now 18 years old and runs
like new. Unfortunately, my Dad died two months ago and I inherited his
much nicer, more advanced top of the line Phillips/Norelco shaver, which I
had bought for him as a Christmas gift a couple of years ago. So my old
perfectly good shaver now sits unused in a drawer. Guess it's time to give
it away to someone else who could use a good shaver.

The moral is, never throw out a cordless appliance only because its
batteries have expired; even if it's been designed to prevent them from
being serviced.

Ken


wrote in message
news
On 29 Dec 2005 06:11:07 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

You may be able to do that, but I don't think it's a viable option for
most of us. First problem is getting into the plastic battery case.
Mine seems to be fused together with no way to get in without
destroying it.

This seems similar to a challenge I had to get inside and repair a sealed
fan speed-control switch for my car (for which used parts are now rare and
new ones are unreasonably expensive, plus take ages to arrive after placing
in an order). In this case I carefully cut the plastic casing open with a
blade-shaped hot soldering iron tip. Then after fixing the insides, I
resealed the case by again using soldering iron (with a different tip) to
meld edges back together again. Didn't look very neat, but it's concealed
from view and it did the trick.

Next problem is where to get replacement batteries of
the correct dimensions and voltages.

Look for an electronic technician's supply outlet. There's at least one in
the town where I live which carries a whole assortment of such rechargeable
batteries and can order in anything you don't see on the shelf.

Not saying it can't be done, I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble.


You're right. Unless you have the time to tinker and you just happen to
derive enjoyment from such challenges, it is probably is not worth your
trouble; especially if you rely on the tool for professional work and
therefore can't tolerate the occasional unexpected 'surprise'. For example,
discovering while busy on the job that your battery-case re-sealing work
could have been reinforced or strengthened better to prevent the seam from
splitting open after an accidental, but routinely common, fall to the
floor... On the other hand, if you intend to replace batteries this way
into the future, once you get the knack of it, or with refinement of
technique along with greater efficiency and practicality gained from further
practice and experience, one may decide it to be worth one's while in the
long run, I don't know.

Ken

KMoiarty wrote:

This seems similar to a challenge I had to get inside and repair a sealed
fan speed-control switch for my car (for which used parts are now rare and
new ones are unreasonably expensive, plus take ages to arrive after placing
in an order). In this case I carefully cut the plastic casing open with a
blade-shaped hot soldering iron tip. Then after fixing the insides, I
resealed the case by again using soldering iron (with a different tip) to
meld edges back together again. Didn't look very neat, but it's concealed
from view and it did the trick.


It's funny how our experiences mold our personalities. My Dad came of
age during the Great Depression, and it had a profound effect on him.
His mantra was repeated to me at least once a week during my formative
years. "Use it up, wear it out. Make it do, or do without."

Once he had a tire with a slow leak. I noticed the low tire, dragged
the air compressor out of the barn and filled the tire up for him.
"There, Dad, that should hold you 'til you can get to a service station
and get it fixed."
"Fixed?? There's nothing wrong with that tire. It just goes down."

Last summer, the computerized climate control quit working on his '92
Cadillac (barely broken in with 165,000 miles). Rather than pay to get
it fixed, he ran a wire from the AC compressor back to the base of the
windshield. Too much trouble to fish the wire through a hole in the
firewall (he's 82). So he just ran the wire outside around the "A"
pillar and back in through the open driver's door. The wire continues
to a residential light switch in a handi-box he mounted to the steering
column with zip ties. When it gets too hot, he turns the AC on. When
it gets too cold, he turns it off.

Growing up on a farm with him had a profound effect on me. I have
absolutely no tolerance for anything "rigged". Nothing at my place is
held together with baling wire or duct tape. I may not have all the
toys I want, but the ones I have are nice.

But I'll probably die broke instead of comfortable like him.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

"MB" wrote in message
oups.com...

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool.

I bought a Rdgid 12V at HD. Lifetime service warranty which incudes the
battery.
Plenty of power, nice chuck. Recommended.

Mitch



Made 100% in China, looks ok...runs fine for a homeowner.

for someone that makes his living with his tools, we would pass.

"CBHVAC" wrote in message
...

"MB" wrote in message
oups.com...

[...]
I bought a Rdgid 12V at HD. Lifetime service warranty which incudes the
battery.
Plenty of power, nice chuck. Recommended.

Mitch



Made 100% in China, looks ok...runs fine for a homeowner.

for someone that makes his living with his tools, we would pass.


But what isn't made in China these days? For example, Hitachi is a well
known Japanese manufacturer whose respectable-quality products we naturally
expect, logically enough, to be made in Japan. But not so with my new
Hitachi (model WH 14DMR) impact driver. At the bottom of the specs label
situated on the housing it reads (in finer print than everything above it),
"Made in China".


Ken

"CBHVAC" wrote in message

Going to be interesting to see how the new Milwaukee V28 Ion line holds
up.

I love the Pit Stop and Helicopter commercials. Check their web page if you
haven't seen them.
http://www.v28power.com/flash.htm

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 03:46:38 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:


"CBHVAC" wrote in message

Going to be interesting to see how the new Milwaukee V28 Ion line holds
up.

I love the Pit Stop and Helicopter commercials. Check their web page if you
haven't seen them.
http://www.v28power.com/flash.htm


Hadn't seen the helipcopter commercial before. Thanks for the link. :-)



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
ups.com...

KMoiarty wrote:

This seems similar to a challenge I had to get inside and repair a sealed
fan speed-control switch for my car (for which used parts are now rare
and
new ones are unreasonably expensive, plus take ages to arrive after
placing
in an order). In this case I carefully cut the plastic casing open with
a
blade-shaped hot soldering iron tip. Then after fixing the insides, I
resealed the case by again using soldering iron (with a different tip) to
meld edges back together again. Didn't look very neat, but it's
concealed
from view and it did the trick.


It's funny how our experiences mold our personalities. My Dad came of
age during the Great Depression, and it had a profound effect on him.
His mantra was repeated to me at least once a week during my formative
years. "Use it up, wear it out. Make it do, or do without."

Once he had a tire with a slow leak. I noticed the low tire, dragged
the air compressor out of the barn and filled the tire up for him.
"There, Dad, that should hold you 'til you can get to a service station
and get it fixed."
"Fixed?? There's nothing wrong with that tire. It just goes down."

Last summer, the computerized climate control quit working on his '92
Cadillac (barely broken in with 165,000 miles). Rather than pay to get
it fixed, he ran a wire from the AC compressor back to the base of the
windshield. Too much trouble to fish the wire through a hole in the
firewall (he's 82). So he just ran the wire outside around the "A"
pillar and back in through the open driver's door. The wire continues
to a residential light switch in a handi-box he mounted to the steering
column with zip ties. When it gets too hot, he turns the AC on. When
it gets too cold, he turns it off.

Growing up on a farm with him had a profound effect on me. I have
absolutely no tolerance for anything "rigged". Nothing at my place is
held together with baling wire or duct tape. I may not have all the
toys I want, but the ones I have are nice.

But I'll probably die broke instead of comfortable like him.


Well compared to your Dad, at 46 I'm just a youngster, never having had
to experience anything like the great depression. But I'm a bit of a rebel
when it comes to today's disposable modular car parts, where there's no
apparent advantage over the old fashioned kind except more money to the
manufacturer when the most minor of repairs are needed. Maybe I learned
this from my Dad because he was always handy at repairing things that other
people wouldn't even try to repair. In fact, before struck by chronic
illness, he had a humble but thriving small appliance sales and repair
business whose customer base largely was attracted to his reputation for
repairing items other dealers would either refuse to, or do so for a price
that was in line with all that actually needed to be done. For example, if
somebody's vacuum cleaner's motor brushes were worn out, and the wholesale
cost for a set of replacement brushes was unreasonably steep, my Dad would
simply take a larger sized set of brushes out of his collection of otherwise
worthless spare parts, take a couple of minutes to file them to the size
required, install them and the machine and it would be running like new
again.
I did this myself about 8 years ago when my car's defrost motor conked
out, due to what I discovered was in fact worn out brushes. Paid $7 for a
set of vacuum cleaner brushes (after convincing the reluctant owner of the
vacuum cleaner store what made me presume he even carried such a part in his
store, and then that I wasn't attempting to deprive him of any business by
intending to use them to repair my own vacuum cleaner. funny Filed them
to the right shape and size, etc...etc... I still drive the same car (with
almost 300,000 km on the odometer) and the defrost motor hasn't been any
problem whatsoever since. Saved myself a lot of money not having to buy,
not merely a replacement motor per se, but the whole modular unit which a
new defrost/heater motor comes encased in. (PS: The car is a '91
Dodge/Mitsubishi Colt 200, which I bought when it was new.)


Ken

In article .com,
says...
wrote:
I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

Uhh, assuming the battery packs were built using standard cell sizes.
My 18V battery packs certainly don't look like they contain 15 AA cells
inside (AAA won't provide enough current).

Most battery packs take what's called a "sub-C" cell. These are
standard sizes, just not what you're used to from the bunny.

BTW, I bought a Porter-Cable 14.4V driver to supliment my 12V
Makita (batteries going) a couple of years ago. The PC driver is
quite nice, as are the other PC tools I've bought.

--
Keith

In article . com,
says...

KMoiarty wrote:

This seems similar to a challenge I had to get inside and repair a sealed
fan speed-control switch for my car (for which used parts are now rare and
new ones are unreasonably expensive, plus take ages to arrive after placing
in an order). In this case I carefully cut the plastic casing open with a
blade-shaped hot soldering iron tip. Then after fixing the insides, I
resealed the case by again using soldering iron (with a different tip) to
meld edges back together again. Didn't look very neat, but it's concealed
from view and it did the trick.


It's funny how our experiences mold our personalities. My Dad came of
age during the Great Depression, and it had a profound effect on him.
His mantra was repeated to me at least once a week during my formative
years. "Use it up, wear it out. Make it do, or do without."

Once he had a tire with a slow leak. I noticed the low tire, dragged
the air compressor out of the barn and filled the tire up for him.
"There, Dad, that should hold you 'til you can get to a service station
and get it fixed."
"Fixed?? There's nothing wrong with that tire. It just goes down."

Last summer, the computerized climate control quit working on his '92
Cadillac (barely broken in with 165,000 miles). Rather than pay to get
it fixed, he ran a wire from the AC compressor back to the base of the
windshield. Too much trouble to fish the wire through a hole in the
firewall (he's 82). So he just ran the wire outside around the "A"
pillar and back in through the open driver's door. The wire continues
to a residential light switch in a handi-box he mounted to the steering
column with zip ties. When it gets too hot, he turns the AC on. When
it gets too cold, he turns it off.

Growing up on a farm with him had a profound effect on me. I have
absolutely no tolerance for anything "rigged". Nothing at my place is
held together with baling wire or duct tape. I may not have all the
toys I want, but the ones I have are nice.

My parents grew up in the depression, as well. However, they
are/were (mom's still alive) more like you than your OM. If they
wanted something they'd wait and buy the best. Cars were for
transportation and didn't impress them much though. If something
broke it was fixed. Usually. ;-)

You're right though, depression kids have a very different outlook
on life.

But I'll probably die broke instead of comfortable like him.

Priorities.

--
Keith

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 03:46:38 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"CBHVAC" wrote in message

Going to be interesting to see how the new Milwaukee V28 Ion line holds
up.

Consumer reports says that the drill they tested had quite a bit of
power. So much so that it burned out its motor during their test.

Ouch.

Greg Guarino

"KMoiarty" wrote in message
...

Further to my inquiry below, does anyone happen to know how a typical corded
driver would rate if actual torque specifications were provided for corded
drivers like they are for cordless? For example, roughly how many
inch-pounds of maximum torque from, say, my 4.6 amp (Skil "Slugger", geared
to rev up to 2600 rpm) corded drill?

Ken



[...] BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity? Up til now I had just
assumed this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the
amperage rating of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12.
for 12v. cordless models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models]
yields maximum energy output [or consumption, respectively] per hour).
But I'd like to somehow find out for certain from someone if I am on the
right track in this or not... Because if this is true how can the most
powerful cordless tool possibly keep pace with an average corded one which
has far higher, both, amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.


Ken


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

[...] IMO, Panasonic is better than either. Small, powerful.

"KMoiarty" wrote in message
news

"CBHVAC" wrote in message
...

"MB" wrote in message
oups.com...

[...]
I bought a Rdgid 12V at HD. Lifetime service warranty which incudes the
battery.
Plenty of power, nice chuck. Recommended.

Mitch



Made 100% in China, looks ok...runs fine for a homeowner.

for someone that makes his living with his tools, we would pass.


But what isn't made in China these days? For example, Hitachi is a well
known Japanese manufacturer whose respectable-quality products we
naturally expect, logically enough, to be made in Japan. But not so with
my new Hitachi (model WH 14DMR) impact driver. At the bottom of the specs
label situated on the housing it reads (in finer print than everything
above it), "Made in China".


Ken


Point taken, but if you CAN buy something still made here, and its rock
solid, why not?

KMoiarty wrote:

Further to my inquiry below, does anyone happen to know how a typical corded
driver would rate if actual torque specifications were provided for corded
drivers like they are for cordless? For example, roughly how many
inch-pounds of maximum torque from, say, my 4.6 amp (Skil "Slugger", geared
to rev up to 2600 rpm) corded drill?


Ken,
I wish it were that easy. I can tell you that 4.6 amps at 120 volts
translates to 18 inch pounds of theoretical torque at 2600 rpm. BUT
(you knew there would be a but, didn't you?) that doesn't consider
friction losses in the gear box which will eat a lot of that torque.
And it doesn't consider that the motor will slow down when a load is
applied, and will generate more torque at lower speeds. Just how much
torque it can develop is determined by the torque curve of that
particular motor. That particular drill probably won't develop as much
ultimate torque as a good cordless.

Torque alone is not a good indicator of performance because it ignores
speed. If you grab the chuck, the cordless seems stronger, especially
in low gear. But when put to the task of drilling, your "Slugger" is
whizzing around at close to 2600 rpm, while the cordless is chugging
along at under 1400, even in high gear.

Consumers are left without reliable ways to compare one cordless to
another, much less cordless to corded. Check out the Consumer Reports
article where they found some higher-voltage drills didn't develop as
much power as other lower-voltage ones. That's why I said ignore the
specs and buy what feels good in your hand. The major brands all put
out enough power for most of our uses. When that's not enough, grab
your extension cord.

But you are right that cordless cannot develop as much power as even a
medium duty corded drill.

By the way, a 4.6 amp 2600 rpm B&D wasn't exactly what I had in mind
when I suggested a corded drill for those times when your cordless
couldn't get the job done. I was thinking more along the lines of this
7.8 amp Dewalt geared to turn 850 rpm.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...29617?n=228013.
You won't have any trouble knowing whether that one is stronger than a
cordless.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him."

I looked into this and now have 2 options. 30 sub C cells @ 2.10 ea. for 2
battery packs plus shipping and my time to re-build them or my local
hardware store has the drill, 2 batteries, charger and case for 60 buck on
sale right now.

wrote in message
news
On 29 Dec 2005 06:11:07 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

habbi, you have the right idea. My first cordless takes batteries at
CDN$89.95 each. Cells for rebuild about CDN$60 per pack. More powerful
drill, case, 2 batteries, charger was CDN$129.95. The stuff is not worth
fixing. (One of the reasons Toronto is in trouble for landfill space -
nothing is worth fixing.)
Bruce


"habbi" wrote in message
...
I looked into this and now have 2 options. 30 sub C cells @ 2.10 ea. for 2
battery packs plus shipping and my time to re-build them or my local
hardware store has the drill, 2 batteries, charger and case for 60 buck on
sale right now.

wrote in message
news
On 29 Dec 2005 06:11:07 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

"Bruce & Lois Nelson" wrote in message

The stuff is not worth
fixing. (One of the reasons Toronto is in trouble for landfill space -
nothing is worth fixing.)
Bruce

Wow, you guys had better change your ways. We don't have that problem down
here in the lower 48

On second thought, considering that new battery packs for today's cordless
tools sell for not much more than the cost of the cells inside them, it's
probably not worth anyone's while to rebuild these things. But still, as
with my Philips/Norelco shaver I mentioned previously, I'm certain there are
other cordless-appliance instances where taking this kind of creative
initiative can be well worth the bother (except when one just doesn't have
the free time to spare, of course).

Ken


Ken
"habbi" wrote in message
...
I looked into this and now have 2 options. 30 sub C cells @ 2.10 ea. for 2
battery packs plus shipping and my time to re-build them or my local
hardware store has the drill, 2 batteries, charger and case for 60 buck on
sale right now.

wrote in message
news
On 29 Dec 2005 06:11:07 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

However . . .before you drop three hundred bucks on a cordless drill,
consider this: Batteries have a maximum life of about 5-7 years or so,
even with light use. Unless you are using the thing every day, your
batteries will die long before you wear out the tool. The price of two
replacement batteries is usually about 2/3 the price of the whole kit
with drill, batteries and charger. So, a cordless drill is a somewhat
disposable item, unlike its corded cousin.

I have got a couple of drills, both Ni-cad and I intend to rebuild the
battery pack. Easily done, just buy the rightnumber of batteries and
wire them in series in teh pack. I presume you can do the same with
the lithium batteries etc.

Edwin, something needs to change, but:

*** my favourite watch - crystal broke - parts not available. Watch
replacement cost CDN$10.00. 25 yrs ago was going to get a crystal replaced
on a different watch - $70 parts & labour - only paid $20 for that watch.
*** table lamp needs a cord. 8 ft cable $3.50, cord end $3.99.
Alternative is extension cord $2.99. Much less expensive to buy the
extension cord and cut the female end off. Plus, no problems with the cable
to end connection. labour is extra.
*** large windows - frame rotting. Assuming the glass can be saved,
$10,000 to rebuild the frames plus ongoing maintenance or do it over again.
Replace complete with aluminum frames, low-e coating on the new glass
(sealed double glazed units), $18,000, maintenance free.
*** TV with built in VCR player - the tape drive quits. Repair is $105
parts & labour (30 day warranty). New TV with both tape & DVD is $200.00
(5 year warranty)
*** Floor lamp with broken switch. labour to repair is $35.00 (no
warranty). Replacement lamp $19.99 (1 year warranty)
*** portable fluorescent light fixture with cord & switch, $15.99 (1 year
warranty). Replacement ballast $17.99. (part only, labour to install is
extra) (no warranty)

Too much stuff is not worth fixing.

You might want to take a close look at what happens to stuff nobody wants
where you live (broken or unwanted appliances, kitchen garbage, waste paper,
old tires, etc.). Many people groups & governments have a pretty spotty
history on disposal. If you are in the US, then have a good look at
replacement costs vs. repair parts & labour. For items other than cars,
houses, & large boats, I suspect that labour costs are high enough to make
repairs expensive compared to replacement (I suspect that if you look
closely, you will find many common items are made in China) (It is said
that years ago a city in Japan changed their name to Usa, so they could
market their manufactured goods as Made in USA. Keep your eyes open, & look
carefully.)

Bruce






"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Bruce & Lois Nelson" wrote in message

The stuff is not worth
fixing. (One of the reasons Toronto is in trouble for landfill space -
nothing is worth fixing.)
Bruce

Wow, you guys had better change your ways. We don't have that problem down
here in the lower 48

"Bruce & Lois Nelson" wrote in message
Too much stuff is not worth fixing.

You might want to take a close look at what happens to stuff nobody wants
where you live (broken or unwanted appliances, kitchen garbage, waste
paper,
old tires, etc.). Many people groups & governments have a pretty
spotty
history on disposal.

We did have one solution. Remeber the garbage barge? It was floated around
thousands of miles beofe anyone would take it in a landfill.



If you are in the US, then have a good look at
replacement costs vs. repair parts & labour. For items other than cars,
houses, & large boats, I suspect that labour costs are high enough to make
repairs expensive compared to replacement (

You can even take houses out of that category. Many are now being torn down
just so a larger one can be build in the same spot. Nothing wrong with the
old one, just that the new owner want a bigger one. It won't affect me, bu
t our kids and grandkids may have a tougher life with all the luxuries that
we dispose of on a regular basis.
Ed

Windows are a real bone of contention with me.

My windows - supposedly maintenance free - are now fogged up and the
routine is replace them entirely. People blithely buy a whole set of
new supposedly guaranteed windows.

This whole industry is a lark. The "sealed argon-filled double pane
window" is a lark. I want good old-fashoned storm windows - not
maintenances free, but at least you do not have to throw them away
every decade.

Anyway that's my rant. Now the question I have for you good folks:
Has anybody ever fixed one of those supposedly sealed windows?
I am going to try: One option would be to roast them or subject them
to a vacuum to draw out the moisture and then re-seal them with some
kind of low viscosity compound. Another solution i have been
considering is to drill vent holes at the corners of the outside pane.
You would still have a still air sandwich but not perfectly still - I
think the moisture will eventually leave. It would still probably be
necessary to seal them to prevent moisture transmission from the
inside but it would be easier since the window will no longer be
"pumping" air from temperature changes.

I really don't want to plunk down thousands for new windows when I
know that if there is a will there is a way to accomplish this.

***

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:18:18 -0500, "Bruce & Lois Nelson"
wrote:

large windows - frame rotting. Assuming the glass can be saved,
$10,000 to rebuild the frames plus ongoing maintenance or do it over again.
Replace complete with aluminum frames, low-e coating on the new glass
(sealed double glazed units), $18,000, maintenance free.

How will you clean the film of shmutz that is all over the inner area?
I tried to open one up some years ago to clean and reseal it. Seemed
a shame to have to chuck it out. While the sealant was not
particularly tough to get to, it was quite a thin layer. Everything I
tried, knife - got stuck, windshield sealant cutting wire - just
resealed after about a foot away, and lastly cutting and prying -
broke the glass. I looked at the milky film on the inside and some
came off OK and some looked like it was baked on or etched.

Interesting to hear from others on this.

Pete




Has anybody ever fixed one of those supposedly sealed windows?

There is a technique for repairing & cleaning these units. It involves
drilling a small hole at the top, and another at the bottom. The space is
filled with a cleaning fluid. (Effectiveness is dependant on how bad the
filming is, & how long it has been there). The fluid is drained & rinsed.
The holes are plugged with "one-way" valves, that allow dry air movement
(thermal expansion) but do not allow for moisture. If anyone is interested,
I will try to find the vendor's (franchise seller) web site.

In the particular example of which I wrote, we would not replace the windows
because of the leak, but because the wooden window frames are badly rotted.
The contractors we have discussed this with are not convinced that the
windows could be saved and cleaned well enough for reinstallation (extra
labour costs) to be cost effective in new frames. I personally have
little confidence in the quality of the work to be expected with the lowest
price (rebuild frames) received. Then there is still the maintenance issue.
With the owner's past history of poor exterior maintenance, I am afraid that
rebuilding rotting wood frames is asking for continuing trouble.

Bruce
wrote in message ...
How will you clean the film of shmutz that is all over the inner area?
I tried to open one up some years ago to clean and reseal it. Seemed
a shame to have to chuck it out. While the sealant was not
particularly tough to get to, it was quite a thin layer. Everything I
tried, knife - got stuck, windshield sealant cutting wire - just
resealed after about a foot away, and lastly cutting and prying -
broke the glass. I looked at the milky film on the inside and some
came off OK and some looked like it was baked on or etched.

Interesting to hear from others on this.

Pete




Has anybody ever fixed one of those supposedly sealed windows?

I am not that farmiliar with the Panasonic line as they are not retailed
widely in my area but I can tell you that the Ah does stand for amp hour and
tells how many amps are delivered for one hour by the battery or vise versa
1 amp for x number of hours. So the higher the number the better, but no
cordless tool will be able to compete with a good corded rival. As for
prices on the Panasonic site I would think like most manufacturers they will
publish the full list price on their site so their resellers can always
sell for less than that price. Many manufactures don't list any prices and
thoese that do usually put up a high recomended list price which no one
sells it for and that price makes every reseller's price look good.
I personally like Porter Cable the best .
hope this helps
Jay

"KMoiarty" wrote in message
...
Just checked out the Panasonic web site. First thing that struck me were
the prices! $510 for the top cordless drill model (15.6V Multi Drill &
Driver with 1/2" Keyless Chuck). As you say, all nice and compact. But
the high price made me think that Panasonic tools must be an elite brand.
Then checked out prices for these very same Panasonic models at several
online retail tool vendor sites, where I found the prices to be much more
in line with the competition. For example only $299 (virtually half the
price) for the above model at Tool Authority
(http://www.toolauthority.com/manufacturers.php?MID=21). One observation
though, in general the Panasonic cordless driver lineup seems to offer
somewhat less torque than competition such as Hitachi or Bosch drivers,
even in models where the voltages are the same. But I guess the extra
compact design of the Panasonic drivers I guess could very well account
for this.

BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity? Up til now I had just
assumed this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the
amperage rating of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12.
for 12v. cordless models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models]
yields maximum energy output [or consumption, respectively] per hour).
But I'd like to somehow find out for certain from someone if I am on the
right track in this or not... Because if this is true how can the most
powerful cordless tool possibly keep pace with an average corded one which
has far higher, both, amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.


Ken


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

[...] IMO, Panasonic is better than either. Small, powerful.

J.D. wrote:
I am not that farmiliar with the Panasonic line as they are not retailed
widely in my area but I can tell you that the Ah does stand for amp hour and
tells how many amps are delivered for one hour by the battery or vise versa
1 amp for x number of hours. So the higher the number the better, but no
cordless tool will be able to compete with a good corded rival. As for
prices on the Panasonic site I would think like most manufacturers they will
publish the full list price on their site so their resellers can always
sell for less than that price. Many manufactures don't list any prices and
thoese that do usually put up a high recomended list price which no one
sells it for and that price makes every reseller's price look good.
I personally like Porter Cable the best .
hope this helps
Jay

"KMoiarty" wrote in message
...

Just checked out the Panasonic web site. First thing that struck me were
the prices! $510 for the top cordless drill model (15.6V Multi Drill &
Driver with 1/2" Keyless Chuck). As you say, all nice and compact. But
the high price made me think that Panasonic tools must be an elite brand.
Then checked out prices for these very same Panasonic models at several
online retail tool vendor sites, where I found the prices to be much more
in line with the competition. For example only $299 (virtually half the
price) for the above model at Tool Authority
(http://www.toolauthority.com/manufacturers.php?MID=21). One observation
though, in general the Panasonic cordless driver lineup seems to offer
somewhat less torque than competition such as Hitachi or Bosch drivers,
even in models where the voltages are the same. But I guess the extra
compact design of the Panasonic drivers I guess could very well account
for this.

BTW, another question I have just came to mind: what is the
significance of "Ah" (e.g. 2.0 Ah, 2.5 Ah, 3.0 Ah, 3.5 Ah, and so on)
rating of a cordless tool's battery-capacity? Up til now I had just
assumed this referred to amperage-per-hour output (which, like the
amperage rating of a corded tool, if multiplied by the voltage [e.g 12.
for 12v. cordless models, between 110 and 120 for all corded models]
yields maximum energy output [or consumption, respectively] per hour).
But I'd like to somehow find out for certain from someone if I am on the
right track in this or not... Because if this is true how can the most
powerful cordless tool possibly keep pace with an average corded one which
has far higher, both, amp and voltage numbers? Thanks.


Ken


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

[...] IMO, Panasonic is better than either. Small, powerful.






Amazon seeks to have the best prices on Panasonic drills. That's where I
got mine several years ago and still love it.

-jj

--
Remove BOB to email me