I don't do much with ebay, buying or selling, and I don't have any kind
of monetary account with them.

Every week, I'd guess I average 60 scams about my PayPal or Ebay
accounts being screwed up. I don't have accounts with either, of
course.

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Since it's third parties who are doing the spamming/phishing, eBay has no
control whatsoever over it.

Just imagine, if you will, what it's like if you run a mail server or two
.... all this crap goes to _every_ e-mail address on the servers. It's past
the point where a small company can afford the bandwidth/cpu cycles to keep
up with it.

Another interesting thing is to take a look at just one day of a server's
logs ... there's a war going on that you never hear about, mostly emanating
from the Pacific Rim/China and the old Eastern Bloc countries.

I'd gladly supply the rope to hang a few of these idiots in the public
square if you can catch'em.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05

They have a "spoof" team that allegedly checks into each and every one of
those "your account may have been compromised" type of scams. Send any
suspect emails to them. Can't hurt I suppose.

I don't see how they can really do all that much, they can't control every
ISP in the world. Unless and until the ISP's figure out some way to go after
their users for attempted fraud, I don't see any real solutions. It's
already against the law so more laws won't solve it. Perhaps life
imprisonment for internet fraud would do the trick.

I've had some fun with some of the con artists by stringing them along but
all that does is show them where they made their mistakes. Their was at
least one fairly well know account of a guy who scammed one of the scammers
pretty well and I remember reading an account by a news reporter where he
tried to turn the tables on one of the "Nigerian" scam artists and then get
the guy to talk to him about it for the story.

There was also a piece on NPR about actions being taken by Nigerian
officials to try and stop the scams coming out of their country, during the
report one of the officials got a scam email...

John Emmons
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't do much with ebay, buying or selling, and I don't have any kind
of monetary account with them.

Every week, I'd guess I average 60 scams about my PayPal or Ebay
accounts being screwed up. I don't have accounts with either, of
course.

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Charlie Self wrote:
I don't do much with ebay, buying or selling, and I don't have any kind
of monetary account with them.

Every week, I'd guess I average 60 scams about my PayPal or Ebay
accounts being screwed up. I don't have accounts with either, of
course.

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.




Don't expect results--they're swamped with these things.

Bob

It's getting worse. I'm not usre if you're familiar with craigslist but
here in the SF bay area and other regions around the us it's a very
popular free classifieds site. They now have scammers.

I placed a few pieces on there for sale. Within an hour I recieved 3
responses, all of them scams, all the same scam. They wanted to send me
a money order or cahsiers check and they have their own shipper. It
seemed suspicious so I check around for fraud alerts and there it was.
In fact one of the samples was verbatim to one of the emails I
recieved. The basics are that they send you a cashiers check or money
order that you bank will accept but will later reject once they find
its fake. By that time you have already shipped the product.

In an added twist, they sometimes claim they have a "client" that is
willing to pay more than you are asking. In order to expidite, they
have the client send you the cashiers chek or money order directly and
ask you to send them the difference.

on 7/14/2005 11:00 AM Charlie Self said the following:
I don't do much with ebay, buying or selling, and I don't have any kind
of monetary account with them.

Every week, I'd guess I average 60 scams about my PayPal or Ebay
accounts being screwed up. I don't have accounts with either, of
course.

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

It's pretty hard for Ebay/PayPal to do much of anything other than warn
their users of the fraud. That's why we (who use Ebay and PayPal)
constant reminders that they will never contact us asking for
information, etc. YOU, the customer, has to initiate the contact.

These scams, otherwise known as "phishing" are getting quite
sophisticated in some respects, yet childish, in others. While the
graphics and fake websites look like the real deal, the language
employed can be pretty funny. If you received one of these this
morning, as I did, you know what I'm talking about.

AOL's spam filters, Thunderbird's spam filters, and most others seem to
miss this stuff and so I just keep hitting delete after looking to see
what these idiots have come up with THIS timeg

When you take the time to trace these things back to their point of
origin, typically it's off-shore in some third world hell hole or the
former USSR (same difference, I guess) or they dead-end at some
anonymizer, again, off shore.

What I don't understand is why anyone would ship something before a
"certified" check actually clears? I don't mean after it's been deposited, I
mean after it clears and the actual money is in your account. Or else simply
call the issuing bank and confirm the authenticity of the check and the
funds.

The "I'll pay you more than the asking price if you'll send me back the
extra money" is my favorite.

I used that one myself on a guy who tried to scam me on a video camera I
wanted to buy. After confirming with several sources that he was scamming me
I offered to pay him twice what he wanted for the camera if he'd send me the
balance in cash...never heard back from him again...strange that.

John Emmons

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
oups.com...
It's getting worse. I'm not usre if you're familiar with craigslist but
here in the SF bay area and other regions around the us it's a very
popular free classifieds site. They now have scammers.

I placed a few pieces on there for sale. Within an hour I recieved 3
responses, all of them scams, all the same scam. They wanted to send me
a money order or cahsiers check and they have their own shipper. It
seemed suspicious so I check around for fraud alerts and there it was.
In fact one of the samples was verbatim to one of the emails I
recieved. The basics are that they send you a cashiers check or money
order that you bank will accept but will later reject once they find
its fake. By that time you have already shipped the product.

In an added twist, they sometimes claim they have a "client" that is
willing to pay more than you are asking. In order to expidite, they
have the client send you the cashiers chek or money order directly and
ask you to send them the difference.

In article .com, "Charlie Self" wrote:

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Well, let's see... the spams are being sent by people with no connection to
eBay, from servers that don't belong to eBay... what on earth do you suppose
eBay could be doing to stop it?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 14 Jul 2005 09:00:15 -0700, "Charlie Self"
wrote:

I don't do much with ebay, buying or selling, and I don't have any kind
of monetary account with them.

Every week, I'd guess I average 60 scams about my PayPal or Ebay
accounts being screwed up. I don't have accounts with either, of
course.

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.
Forward all these to

They shut down several of these each day.

Many of those phishing emails look convincingly real. However, one dead
giveaway, as you pointed out, is when they threaten to cancel an account you
never actually had. To avoid having my real email address read by crawlers
and bots and added to a million spammers' lists, I have for years been using
the fake e-mail address shown in the header of this message. It was only in
the last month or so that I actually created a real account using that
address just to see how much unsolicited crap would start coming my way.
The day I activated the address I got about a dozen pieces of garbage
e-mail, 8 of which were bogus eBay and PayPal notices.
A while back I did forward one or two of these phishing emails to
or and I started getting deluged with
(legitimate) confirmations for each one I sent them. I got 1 or 2 a day for
about a week, so I finally stopped forwarding the crap to the spoof police.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

I don't spend any time reading spam. But in the little time it takes me to
delete the crap, I can often spot grammar errors in just the first sentence
or two. English is obviously not their first language.

Isn't there a style or grammar guide for internet crooks?

How is that for an internet service? Editing services for spams, phishes
and various sundry con games?

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:24:22 -0500, Swingman wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Since it's third parties who are doing the spamming/phishing, eBay has no
control whatsoever over it.

Right. They can do what's called "whack-a-mole" and react to each one,
or they can try to educate their customers that they'll never send mail
to verify accounts.

Just imagine, if you will, what it's like if you run a mail server or two
... all this crap goes to _every_ e-mail address on the servers. It's past
the point where a small company can afford the bandwidth/cpu cycles to keep
up with it.

Well, they can always hire a consultant to set up spamassassin and or
RBL checking for them...

Another interesting thing is to take a look at just one day of a server's
logs ... there's a war going on that you never hear about, mostly emanating
from the Pacific Rim/China and the old Eastern Bloc countries.

I block entire continents these days, for that reason.

I'd gladly supply the rope to hang a few of these idiots in the public
square if you can catch'em.

I'll supply the marksmanship and ammunition. Standing/unlimited offer.

Swingman wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Since it's third parties who are doing the spamming/phishing, eBay has no
control whatsoever over it.

Just imagine, if you will, what it's like if you run a mail server or two
... all this crap goes to _every_ e-mail address on the servers. It's past
the point where a small company can afford the bandwidth/cpu cycles to keep
up with it.

Another interesting thing is to take a look at just one day of a server's
logs ... there's a war going on that you never hear about, mostly emanating
from the Pacific Rim/China and the old Eastern Bloc countries.

I'd gladly supply the rope to hang a few of these idiots in the public
square if you can catch'em.

Seems to me that there should be some kind of internaitonal cooperation
on catching, and punishing, these people. I don't see anyone who is
very bright falling for their cons, but the damned things are super
annoying, almost as annoying as the new variants on the Nigerian scam.

Allan Matthews wrote:

....

They shut down several of these each day.

Confirming data???

John Emmons wrote:
They have a "spoof" team that allegedly checks into each and every one of
those "your account may have been compromised" type of scams. Send any
suspect emails to them. Can't hurt I suppose.

I don't see how they can really do all that much, they can't control every
ISP in the world. Unless and until the ISP's figure out some way to go after
their users for attempted fraud, I don't see any real solutions. It's
already against the law so more laws won't solve it. Perhaps life
imprisonment for internet fraud would do the trick.


Better to give them a choice. Duct tape their gonads to the parapet on
a 10 story building, then hang them over the parapet wall. Their choice
as to what they do. Pull the tape or hang their in agony forever.

Puts new meaning into the phrase, "How they hanging?"

In article ,
Lee Michaels wrote:
I don't spend any time reading spam. But in the little time it takes me to
delete the crap, I can often spot grammar errors in just the first sentence
or two. English is obviously not their first language.


Actually, many of the grammar/spelling errors are _deliberate_. So that
the 'erroneous' construct will not match the patterns used by tools that
block traffic based on the 'correct' words/phrases.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com, "Charlie Self" wrote:

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Well, let's see... the spams are being sent by people with no connection to
eBay, from servers that don't belong to eBay... what on earth do you suppose
eBay could be doing to stop it?


Dunno. There were some reports about follow-ups and prosecutions some
time ago, but those petered out. Nothing since and the amount of crap
has risen. Seems like ebay has taken on the con status of E. Podunk
Third National Bank for a "Your account is going to be closed out if
you don't send us all your info immediately" subjects. I'd be curious
to know if they've even checked to see if there is anything they can do.

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Lee Michaels wrote:
I don't spend any time reading spam. But in the little time it takes me to
delete the crap, I can often spot grammar errors in just the first
sentence
or two. English is obviously not their first language.


Actually, many of the grammar/spelling errors are _deliberate_. So that
the 'erroneous' construct will not match the patterns used by tools that
block traffic based on the 'correct' words/phrases.


While we are on this topic, any recommendations for a spam filter? I have
been using spam sleuth up till last week when it mysteriously stopped
working. I have been unable to raise any kind of help from the company
either.

"John Emmons" wrote in message
...
What I don't understand is why anyone would ship something before a
"certified" check actually clears? I don't mean after it's been deposited,
I
mean after it clears and the actual money is in your account. Or else
simply
call the issuing bank and confirm the authenticity of the check and the
funds.

A lot of people think that a certified or cashier's check is like gold and
is going to clear. The will if they are not counterfiet.


The "I'll pay you more than the asking price if you'll send me back the
extra money" is my favorite.

Do you have change of a $40 bill? Just give me three tens and wi'll call it
even. Greed is a wonderful motivator.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Phishing is what it is called.

Not just those two, but Citi Bank, People's Bank, and a few others. Most are
caught in the SBC/Yahoo filters, but some get through. They do look
legitimate

I like the line "do not try to access your account for 48 hours until our
update is complete"

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

....

Do you have change of a $40 bill? Just give me three tens and wi'll call it
even. Greed is a wonderful motivator.

I got's three twelves and a four I'll e-mail...

"Charlie Self" wrote in
oups.com:



John Emmons wrote:
They have a "spoof" team that allegedly checks into each and
every one of those "your account may have been compromised" type
of scams. Send any suspect emails to them. Can't hurt I suppose.

I don't see how they can really do all that much, they can't
control every ISP in the world. Unless and until the ISP's figure
out some way to go after their users for attempted fraud, I don't
see any real solutions. It's already against the law so more laws
won't solve it. Perhaps life imprisonment for internet fraud
would do the trick.


Better to give them a choice. Duct tape their gonads to the
parapet on a 10 story building, then hang them over the parapet
wall. Their choice as to what they do. Pull the tape or hang their
in agony forever.

Remind me to never get on your bad side, Charlie. ;-)

Puts new meaning into the phrase, "How they hanging?"

Indeed.

--

Bill

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

....re phishing...

... They do look legitimate

I can't conceive to whom in the world they could possibly "look
legitimate".

I am absolutely amazed that anyone, anywhere, ever responded to
any of this...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:RKxBe.2603$bw6.511@trndny03...

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Phishing is what it is called.

Not just those two, but Citi Bank, People's Bank, and a few others. Most
are caught in the SBC/Yahoo filters, but some get through. They do look
legitimate

I like the line "do not try to access your account for 48 hours until our
update is complete"

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER...click on a link within an email thinking you're going
to a legitimate log in screen. Always, close the email and log in on the
secure webpage as you normally do. I've had legitimate brokers and banks
actually try to get me to do this and I give their security department a
stern lecture each time. OBTW, NEVER click on a link to a login screen
within an email.

Gary

In article om,
Charlie Self wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
"Charlie Self" wrote:

I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Well, let's see... the spams are being sent by people with no connection to
eBay, from servers that don't belong to eBay... what on earth do you suppose
eBay could be doing to stop it?


Dunno. There were some reports about follow-ups and prosecutions some
time ago, but those petered out. Nothing since and the amount of crap
has risen. Seems like ebay has taken on the con status of E. Podunk
Third National Bank for a "Your account is going to be closed out if
you don't send us all your info immediately" subjects. I'd be curious
to know if they've even checked to see if there is anything they can do.


There are the following issues with regard to _any_ "phishing" scam:
1) identifying the perpetrator(s)
2) figuring out what legal jurisdiction(s) they are in
3) figuring out what, IF ANY, _crime_, the 'misrepresented solicitation' is
in *THAT* jurisdiction. (national? provincial? municipal?)
4) figuring out what language the authorities there speak, to report the
criminal act.
5) figuring out who to file the criminal complaint with.
6) figuring out how to get _them _to_ prosecute.

Similar issues apply with regard to getting the web-site knocked down, when
*it* is off-shore. unless eBay is registered to do business in _that_
jurisdiction, they can't even claim trademark protection *there*.


Even in the U.S. I'm not sure what crime it is, **IF ANY**, to trick somebody
into revealing 'sensitive' account information. To -use- that information
once you have it is definitely a crime -- any of several sorts, depending on
the use to which that information was put.

This leaves trademark misrepresentation and/or 'dilution of trademark' as
possible avenues.

(Robert Bonomi) wrote in
:

Even in the U.S. I'm not sure what crime it is, **IF ANY**, to
trick somebody into revealing 'sensitive' account information.

Isn't unsolicited, commercial spam e-mail considered a crime in some
jurisdictions now?

To
-use- that information once you have it is definitely a crime --
any of several sorts, depending on the use to which that
information was put.

Yeah, but by that time the crooks can be in the clear...leaving only a
very blurry, multi-offshore-jurisdiction trail behind.


--

Bill

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:51:43 -0400, Lee Michaels wrote:

While we are on this topic, any recommendations for a spam filter? I have
been using spam sleuth up till last week when it mysteriously stopped
working. I have been unable to raise any kind of help from the company
either.

I subscribe to spamcop.net for 30 bucks a year, they block 98 or 99% of
the crap that would normally get to me. Another approach is to have a
whitelist set up - zaep from rhinosoft.com is great, if you have windows
and an always-on network connection. Once you (or they) whitelist a
sender, their mail comes right through; new ones need to be approved by
either you or, if you want, them. Unless your friends turn into
spammers, that should block 100% of it.

In article ,
Lee Michaels wrote:

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Lee Michaels wrote:
I don't spend any time reading spam. But in the little time it takes me to
delete the crap, I can often spot grammar errors in just the first
sentence
or two. English is obviously not their first language.


Actually, many of the grammar/spelling errors are _deliberate_. So that
the 'erroneous' construct will not match the patterns used by tools that
block traffic based on the 'correct' words/phrases.


While we are on this topic, any recommendations for a spam filter? I have
been using spam sleuth up till last week when it mysteriously stopped
working. I have been unable to raise any kind of help from the company
either.

Answers for that depend on the platform. And whether you have control of
the mailserver, or can only do 'filtering' when you read your inbox.

Good freeware tools include "MIMEdefang", and Spamassassin". You may hae
to rummage for a while to find an implementation varient that fits your
platform and method of use.

Google is your friend.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:42:30 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Allan Matthews wrote:

...

They shut down several of these each day.

Confirming data???

Only what they send me when I forward one of these to them and notice
a few hours later that the website the scammer tries to send me to is
no longer there.
Allan

I'll give you fourteen threes - you'll make a $2 profit!

--Steve

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

...

Do you have change of a $40 bill? Just give me three tens and wi'll call it
even. Greed is a wonderful motivator.


I got's three twelves and a four I'll e-mail...

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:18:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

...re phishing...

... They do look legitimate

I can't conceive to whom in the world they could possibly "look
legitimate".

I am absolutely amazed that anyone, anywhere, ever responded to
any of this...


I know a woman, a loan officer at a mortgage company, no less, who did
just that. blew me away.

In article .com,
SonomaProducts.com wrote:

I placed a few pieces on there for sale. Within an hour I recieved 3
responses, all of them scams, all the same scam. They wanted to send me
a money order or cahsiers check and they have their own shipper. It
seemed suspicious so I check around for fraud alerts and there it was.
In fact one of the samples was verbatim to one of the emails I
recieved. The basics are that they send you a cashiers check or money
order that you bank will accept but will later reject once they find
its fake. By that time you have already shipped the product.

Check out http://www.scamorama.com/

The only reason these thieves are out there is that people are more
greedy than they are smart.

djb

--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: http://www.balderstone.ca
The other site, with ww linkshttp://www.woodenwabbits.com

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

...re phishing...

... They do look legitimate

I can't conceive to whom in the world they could possibly "look
legitimate".

I am absolutely amazed that anyone, anywhere, ever responded to
any of this...


Millions of unsuspecting people out there. If you go to the web page they
link you to, the logos and text are generally stolen from the real web page.

Just because people own a computer it does not make them smarter than the
ones that fall for the mail scams in official looking envelopes.

Even in the U.S. I'm not sure what crime it is, **IF ANY**, to trick
somebody
into revealing 'sensitive' account information. To -use- that information
once you have it is definitely a crime -- any of several sorts, depending on
the use to which that information was put.

Sure sounds like fraud to me.

Lee



--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

I can't conceive to whom in the world they could possibly "look
legitimate".

Some of them look amazingly convincing -- right down to the part where they
include the actual links to fraud reporting departments of the entities they
are spoofing.

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

Actually, many of the grammar/spelling errors are _deliberate_. So that
the 'erroneous' construct will not match the patterns used by tools that
block traffic based on the 'correct' words/phrases.

I seem to get dozens of emails every week informing me that the mortgage
application they imply I have filed with them has now been approved and
asking me what I'm waiting for. I am so sorely tempted to reply to them
(but of course I'm not going to) that because their email to me is so
sloppy -- littered with spelling and typographical errors -- I feel I can't
trust them to properly attend to the details of my finances so I will be
taking my business elsewhere g

Lee.

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

Charlie Self wrote:

Swingman wrote:

"Charlie Self" wrote in message


I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.

Since it's third parties who are doing the spamming/phishing, eBay has no
control whatsoever over it.

Just imagine, if you will, what it's like if you run a mail server or two
... all this crap goes to _every_ e-mail address on the servers. It's past
the point where a small company can afford the bandwidth/cpu cycles to keep
up with it.

Another interesting thing is to take a look at just one day of a server's
logs ... there's a war going on that you never hear about, mostly emanating
from the Pacific Rim/China and the old Eastern Bloc countries.

I'd gladly supply the rope to hang a few of these idiots in the public
square if you can catch'em.


Seems to me that there should be some kind of internaitonal cooperation
on catching, and punishing, these people. I don't see anyone who is
very bright falling for their cons, but the damned things are super
annoying, almost as annoying as the new variants on the Nigerian scam.


Best idea I've seen is a law that penalizes the spammers $1.00 for each
offense. That means for each contact: send a million, spend a million.
Of course we need some leverage with ISPs to uncover them.

Bob

Lee Gordon wrote:

I can't conceive to whom in the world they could possibly "look
legitimate".

Some of them look amazingly convincing -- right down to the part where they
include the actual links to fraud reporting departments of the entities they
are spoofing.

Whatever...

Bob Schmall wrote:
....
Best idea I've seen is a law that penalizes the spammers $1.00 for each
offense. That means for each contact: send a million, spend a million.
Of course we need some leverage with ISPs to uncover them.

Bigger problem is leverage w/ home jurisdiction...

Charlie Self wrote:
I don't do much with ebay, buying or selling, and I don't have any kind=

of monetary account with them.
=20
Every week, I'd guess I average 60 scams about my PayPal or Ebay
accounts being screwed up. I don't have accounts with either, of
course.
=20
It is relentless, and, for whatever reason, AOL's spam filters don't
catch them.
=20
I'm basically just curious as to whether or not ebay itself has any
kind of active program against this sort of activity. It sure isn't
effective, if they do.
=20


Look for the "Busted up Cowgirl" Link a little way down the page.


http://pmccl.com/security/security.html


The world's funniest description of e-Bay scammers and the 419 scam...



--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw