I need some advice from the experts.

I have been debating with my niece regarging fitchen flooring and so far we
have determined the following:

Ceramic tile: Too hard. Any glassware that drops to the floor will
instantly shatter. Grout sucks up spills like a sponge leading to the
dreaded sour milk smell.

One piece linoleum: Generally looks like crap. A real bitch to install.

Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't last
too long. Looks cheap.

Wood Flooring: The right floor lasts but installing over a concrete slab
can be a real challenge if one wants to avoid that hollow sound. The
finish doesn't wear well with high traffic and the dogs running with their
nails is a concern. The added height of the wood floor can be an issue.
Then there is the issue of spills.

She mentioned cork flooring. Sounds ok but periodic re-coatings are
necessary. Are there any disadvantages to cork flooring that I should know
about?

What is your take on cork flooring?

thanks

R. Pierce

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message

Ceramic tile: Too hard. Any glassware that drops to the floor will
instantly shatter. Grout sucks up spills like a sponge leading to the
dreaded sour milk smell.

Never had that problem in my last house. Some day I'll have at again in
this house. Loved it. Easty to care for, always looked fantastic. We used
some Italian quarry tile. As for the glassware, I've never dropped a pice
on any floor that did not break. Ceramic is my first choice.



One piece linoleum: Generally looks like crap. A real bitch to install.

It has improved from what it used to be. I had mine installed by a pro
though. Not as easily cleaned as ceramic, it is decent looking and has good
utility properties.


Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't last
too long. Looks cheap.

Yes, last choice.


Wood Flooring: The right floor lasts but installing over a concrete slab
can be a real challenge if one wants to avoid that hollow sound. The
finish doesn't wear well with high traffic and the dogs running with their
nails is a concern. The added height of the wood floor can be an issue.
Then there is the issue of spills.

Consider engineered wood or laminate. Done right, they are durable and the
spil problem is minimal. I have an area with WilsonArt laminate that is in
perfect dondition after about 8 years. I have Mannington engineered wood in
my family room and hallway and it is still good after two years. Factory
finisher are verey durable.


She mentioned cork flooring. Sounds ok but periodic re-coatings are
necessary. Are there any disadvantages to cork flooring that I should
know
about?

What is your take on cork flooring?

I don't know a lot about it, but it would not be my choice for a kitchen.

On 28-May-2005, "R. Pierce Butler" wrote:

Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't last

too long. Looks cheap.

not sure I agree with you there. the kitchen i'm redoing has 1 ft.sq vinyl
tiles that looked great. They've stood up remarkably well to the abuse of
the kitchen demolition and construction. We're going to be putting
porcelain tile over them because I like it but I was pretty impressed with
how well the vinyl holds up. I suppose riverdancing on it in golf shoes
would tear it up pretty well though.

Mine is laid directly over the slab and it doesn't provide much protection
against glasses shattering. Some underlayment would have done wonders for
it but I suppose that adds it's own problems.

It sounds as if things like dogs and kids and spills are major factors.
Sheet vinyl doesn't have seams, at least not many of them, is reasonably
easy to install, wears ok, and isn't too hard to replace or even floor over
for when those kids are grown (and have stopped spilling things). It's not
going to be gorgeous but it sounds as if wear and ease of cleaning are your
drivers at present.

On Sat, 28 May 2005 14:21:50 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
wrote:

She mentioned cork flooring. Sounds ok but periodic re-coatings are
necessary. Are there any disadvantages to cork flooring that I should know
about?

Have it, love it.

I don't know about "re-coatings." I installed a cork laminate (8" x 4'
planks) which is prefinished (doesn't that sound oxymorinish?).

What we love about it is the feel, both with and without shoes on.
It's not soft. It doesn't exactly feel cushiony. But you know you're
on a comfortable surface. It's also a "warm" surface. Not so
temperature-wise, but imagine what your bare foot feels like standing
on stone or tile. There is absolutely none of that with cork. And it
feels "warmer" than wood. It's hard to explain, but when you go to the
flooring store, put down a sample of cork, take off your shoes and
socks, and stand on it and see if you experience the same thing before
they throw you out.

What really impressed me was, expecting it to be quite soft and easily
damaged, after having the dining room table in place for several
weeks, I had to move it and there wasn't even a hint of a mark from
the four quarter-sized plastic feet. Nothing. Again, ours is laminate
(approximately 1/8" surface layer), and other installations may not be
the same.

Although one thinks of cork as very soft and porous it doesn't act
like it. Water spills wipe up easily and don't seem to soak in,
although the care instrudtions advise not to leave any liquids on the
seams.

The one downside? Unlike the wood laminate flooring I've installed
elsewhere whose seems are virtually invisible, the seams on our
laminate seemed as if I had hammered the planks together too hard and
raised a slight, I don't know; welt? where the boards meet. I assure
you I didn't hit them too hard, especially in the final 3/4 of the
installation after I saw how they looked.

However, seams are seams, and every floor has some sort of quirky
characteristic.

Now, having said all that, we barely have a year with our floor.
However, based on what we've experienced so far, we would install it
again.

There was anotherr advantage; I now have a lifetime supply of material
from which to make clamping pads from the leftover planks.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
. 1...
I need some advice from the experts.

I have been debating with my niece regarging fitchen flooring and so far
we
have determined the following:

Ceramic tile: Too hard. Any glassware that drops to the floor will
instantly shatter. Grout sucks up spills like a sponge leading to the
dreaded sour milk smell.

You have to assume that any thing that falls to ANY floor will break. If it
does not, you are LUCKY. I have had ceramic tile floors in my kitchen for
16 years and before that I had vinyl flooring. Since we seldom drop
breakable items on the floor we seldom have a problem even with a 2 year old
16 years ago. I would not use glass breakage as an excuse to not have a
nice floor. Additionally I have never witnessed any smell that developed
from spills.


One piece linoleum: Generally looks like crap. A real bitch to install.

Actually linoleum is pretty nice. You are probably talking about vinyl
flooring. Linoleum is pretty rare these days and yes vinyl flooring does
look pretty crapy.


Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't last
too long. Looks cheap.

IMHO worse than vinyl flooring.


Wood Flooring: The right floor lasts but installing over a concrete slab
can be a real challenge if one wants to avoid that hollow sound. The
finish doesn't wear well with high traffic and the dogs running with their
nails is a concern. The added height of the wood floor can be an issue.
Then there is the issue of spills.

Agreed, especially for a kitchen. Consider also, laminate flooring. While
I would not consider the Pergo type floors an "upgrade" it does wear very
well and pets wont scratch it.

She mentioned cork flooring. Sounds ok but periodic re-coatings are
necessary. Are there any disadvantages to cork flooring that I should
know
about?

If you are considering cork flooring, you might want to revisit REAL
linoleum flooring, not vinyl flooring. You will probably have a hard time
finding a supplier or installer unless you live in a large city.

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in
. 1:

I need some advice from the experts.

Consider any kitchen floor as a temporary measure. 10 years maximum.
Anything past that is pretty much a bonus, if you aren't tired of looking
at it by then.

It's cheaper to redo than cabinetry, too.

"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 97.136...
"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in
. 1:

I need some advice from the experts.

Consider any kitchen floor as a temporary measure. 10 years maximum.
Anything past that is pretty much a bonus, if you aren't tired of looking
at it by then.

Actually a decent ceramic is for ever if you do not get tired of it.

Patriarch writes:

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in
. 1:

I need some advice from the experts.

Consider any kitchen floor as a temporary measure. 10 years maximum.
Anything past that is pretty much a bonus, if you aren't tired of looking

My mothers kitchen floor is 32 years, real linoleum. Cats in the
house. Apart from a few tiny (less than 1mm diameter) burn marks where
burning coal pieces fell out of the kitchen stove it looks as good as
new.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

R. Pierce Butler wrote:

I need some advice from the experts.

I have been debating with my niece regarging fitchen flooring and so far
we have determined the following:

Ceramic tile: Too hard. Any glassware that drops to the floor will
instantly shatter. Grout sucks up spills like a sponge leading to the
dreaded sour milk smell.

One piece linoleum: Generally looks like crap. A real bitch to install.

Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't last
too long. Looks cheap.

Wood Flooring: The right floor lasts but installing over a concrete slab
can be a real challenge if one wants to avoid that hollow sound. The
finish doesn't wear well with high traffic and the dogs running with their
nails is a concern. The added height of the wood floor can be an issue.
Then there is the issue of spills.

She mentioned cork flooring. Sounds ok but periodic re-coatings are
necessary. Are there any disadvantages to cork flooring that I should
know about?

What is your take on cork flooring?

thanks

R. Pierce
Armstrong makes a floor which is similar to wood floor but looks like tile.
It comes in 15" x 45" sections which latch together like the wood floor but
have a nice strong covering. I've dropped stuff on them a few times
without damage, seems to hold up real well.

Grout in our kitchen tile floor is sealed obviating spills sucking up
anything. Wife comments frequently how much she enjoys the floor.

On Sat, 28 May 2005 14:21:50 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
wrote:

Ceramic tile: Too hard. Any glassware that drops to the floor will
instantly shatter. Grout sucks up spills like a sponge leading to the
dreaded sour milk smell.

On Sat, 28 May 2005 14:21:50 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
wrote:


She mentioned cork flooring. Sounds ok but periodic re-coatings are
necessary. Are there any disadvantages to cork flooring that I should know
about?

What is your take on cork flooring?

Looks beautiful, and is easy on the feet. I like it an awful lot, but
I'm just getting around to installing it, so a review would be
premature.

You forgot to add the engineered products that are around. Some of
those that are made from recycled pop bottles and the like actually
look pretty close to a real wood floor, but are very tough and
completely waterproof. A really good choice for a kitchen, IMO.
They're not always cheap, but neither is cork!

Ceramic tile: Too hard. Any glassware that drops to the floor will
instantly shatter.

True.

Grout sucks up spills like a sponge leading to the
dreaded sour milk smell.

This is just not true with a proper installation (seal the grout).


One piece linoleum: Generally looks like crap. A real bitch to install.

Not a bitch if you pay a pro. This is a job where I definitely hire a
pro.It's not that expensive, it requires that you have a some experience
while not requiring a decades of apprenticeship and most importantly, the
popential screwups have costly fixes.


Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't last
too long. Looks cheap.

Yup.

What is your take on cork flooring?


Sorry can't help you there.

wrote in message
news:_p%le.509$rp.166@fed1read02...

On 28-May-2005, "R. Pierce Butler" wrote:

Peel and stick squares: They move over time and they generally don't
last

too long. Looks cheap.

not sure I agree with you there. the kitchen i'm redoing has 1 ft.sq
vinyl
tiles that looked great.


Snippage....

I think you a re referring to commercial vinyl tile, *not* peel & stick, The
stuff like you would see in a grocery store. It's attached with troweled on
mastic. I put this on my laundry room/untility space and I really like it.

-Steve

I've had the peel and stick vinyl tiles in a decent pattern that lasted
18 years and was still in decent shape when we sold.

The dog factor led me to install a Pergo laminate floor a few years ago.
Looked good even though it was a bitch to install(kept moving around on
me) and has held up great. Does not take moisture well at the edges so
make sure to finish out per factory specs. We used the older glue down
which was a real pain. Glue all over everybody. The new stuff can be
laid down without glue. Haven't tried it though so I cannot comment.
Dogs did not scratch it since it is really hard.

You might take a look at bamboo also if it is locally available. I have
not seen it up close but it is hard and is renewable. I think it looks
neat.

Good luck with the project whatever you choose.

Lynette Truitt says...

The dog factor led me to install a Pergo laminate floor a few years ago.

Am I the only person who thinks dog ownership is a really bad idea for
most people? I like dogs as much as the next guy, maybe even more than
most people who actually own them, but I just don't see owning one is
rational in the 21st century. The same goes for cats for the most part,
although some of them serve a purpose in keeping rodent populations at
bay, although the cure is arguably as bad as the disease. The problems
I have went through because of dogs is just too many to list, but here's
a sampler: getting bitten riding my bike on a public street. The fear
of being attacked just by walking, jogging or biking down any street.
Constant barking from every direction day and night. Yep, my next door
neighbors have six dogs between the three houses. Two of them are rabid
Rottweiler looking things that just go ape**** every second I'm in my
backyard. Fortunately it's just a strip behind the garage and there
isn't much reason to go out there except to mow the grass or take out
the trash. Incalculable property damage done. Whole houses full of
carpet destroyed, furniture, grass, window sills, siding all destroyed
by dogs. Men, women and especially small children maimed and killed by
dogs. I know of a few tragic cases just in my circle of acquaintances
over the years and seeing some of the dogs people kept, I'm actually
surprised there weren't more. I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
.net...

Am I the only person who thinks dog ownership is a really bad idea for
most people?

Yes.

"Hax Planx" wrote in message

I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?

This will probably turn into a rather long thread. I have to agree with
much of what you wrote. We've had dogs for many years, but our last one, at
14, had to be put down last year. I don't miss having one. No worries
about getting back home if we go out, no boarding if we go away for a couple
of days.

Dogs can be good companions though. What gets me are the people that treat
dogs like children, or even better. No dog has ever slept in our bed.

A couple of houses away, there are five dogs. I'm not looking forward to
sitting out this summer if they don't get some control over the barking. Of
course it is the owner, not the dogs at fault here and in many dog related
problems.
Ed

Edwin Pawlowski says...

This will probably turn into a rather long thread. I have to agree with
much of what you wrote. We've had dogs for many years, but our last one, at
14, had to be put down last year. I don't miss having one. No worries
about getting back home if we go out, no boarding if we go away for a couple
of days.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the dog sitter problems.

Dogs can be good companions though. What gets me are the people that treat
dogs like children, or even better. No dog has ever slept in our bed.

Dogs are given much more lenient treatment than any human being. I
can't think of anyone who would sit on a couch after a naked man who
seldom bathed had been rolling all over it, but replace that image with
a dog and it is suddenly A-OK.

A couple of houses away, there are five dogs. I'm not looking forward to
sitting out this summer if they don't get some control over the barking. Of
course it is the owner, not the dogs at fault here and in many dog related
problems.
Ed

The last time I was bit by a dog, it was a pure-bred, pampered Dalmatian
that was just running around loose. It wasn't a particularly mean dog,
but I was riding my bike and that's just what dogs do. I was able to
find the owner and she acted like the whole thing was my fault. She
said I should have acted aggressive to the dog instead of just trying to
ride away. I sent her the doctor bill for the tetanus shot and she
complained about that too. I don't remember what I said to her, but she
paid it without any more arguments.

In article ,
Hax Planx wrote:

It wasn't a particularly mean dog,
but I was riding my bike and that's just what dogs do.

I just love dogs. The clumsier, the bigger, the goofier, the better.
My wife insists that I was a dog in a previous life. Dogs and I get
along. The odd one that wants to bite me as I ride by on my bike, gets a
shot of pure lemon juice in the eyes... sorry pup.

I currently don't own one, because we want to some travelling and we
don't want the bother.

From a practical standpoint, I completely agree with most that Hax has
written. They're basically a pain in the ass. They do a lot of damage
and cost a lot of money and time.

But i love them just the same. My friends' dogs.

Hax Planx wrote in
.net:

Am I the only person who thinks dog ownership is a really bad idea for
most people? snip I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?


If, as someone said, the measure of a person's intelligence is how much he
agrees with you, then you are an absolute genius!

I replaced a front lawn with roses, at least in part because I was tired of
cleaning up after other peoples' dogs. It's _not_ less work, or less
water, but it smells better!

Patriarch

ps: I have a neighbor with a bumper sticker: "Life begins when the kids
move out and the last dog dies!"

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
surprised there weren't more. I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?

Just to play devil's advocate.

1) There's a definite, proven psychological benefit to owning a pet. Dogs in
most cases rate at the higher end of the scale here. Result, people feel
better, many probably live longer because of it. In our age of obesity, dogs
are a source of exercise for their owners. Maybe not much in many cases, but
every little bit helps.

2) Dogs have been known to save lives. Getting someone's attention in case
of fire, coming to the rescue of child, waking someone from sleep for
whatever.

3) Dogs have had a long history of working in emergency services. Smelling
out drugs, smelling out explosives, sacrificing themselves for their
handlers/owners and other things I can't think of right now.

4) Dogs usually protect their environment against thieves, owner's property
or perhaps someone who would harm a family child.

Everything that Hax Planx has said is true and more. I think the biggest
problem though isn't dogs, it's by far the people that own them and don't
control them. Sure, let your dogs **** every five feet wherever they travel,
I enjoy going out in the winter and seeing yellow snow everywhere. Let them
**** on the sidewalk or a neighbours lawn without pooping and scooping. It's
manure right? You're just helping out your neighbour. Let them run wild
getting into garbage cans. Your neighbour must not have packaged his garbage
properly, so that's not the dog's fault, right? Certainly not your fault for
letting the dog run free. And yes, it's alright to abandon your dog when
it's sick or you just don't want it anymore. It's not your fault it got old.
Beat your dogs or just be plain mean to them, turning them into gnashing,
aggressive animals. Anybody like the postman or a girl-guide selling cookies
who comes into your yard should know better, right?

BUT, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!! Let's get rid of dog owners. Then the dog
problem will go away, right? I mean, what possible good does a dog owner do?
He's a waste of air and a drain on the economy. At the very least, we should
be neutering and spaying dog owners, not their dogs. That would fix the
problem. Don't you think?

On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:11:15 -0500, Hax Planx
wrote:

Lynette Truitt says...

The dog factor led me to install a Pergo laminate floor a few years ago.

Am I the only person who thinks dog ownership is a really bad idea for
most people?

I can't speak for *most people*, but I love my dogs, and they're an
important part of my family.

I like dogs as much as the next guy, maybe even more than
most people who actually own them, but I just don't see owning one is
rational in the 21st century. The same goes for cats for the most part,
although some of them serve a purpose in keeping rodent populations at
bay, although the cure is arguably as bad as the disease.

It is? What did a cat ever do to you? I'd rather have cats in the
house (and the strays in the neighborhood) than disease-carrying
vermin that try to get in and spoil my food. Of course, that's just
one guy's opinion.

The problems
I have went through because of dogs is just too many to list, but here's
a sampler: getting bitten riding my bike on a public street. The fear
of being attacked just by walking, jogging or biking down any street.
Constant barking from every direction day and night. Yep, my next door
neighbors have six dogs between the three houses. Two of them are rabid
Rottweiler looking things that just go ape**** every second I'm in my
backyard. Fortunately it's just a strip behind the garage and there
isn't much reason to go out there except to mow the grass or take out
the trash.

Now these are good reasons to dislike some dogs, and I tend to agree
that there are a lot of problem animals around. However, it's like
anything else- you see and hear the ones that are causing trouble, and
have no reason to notice the majority of them that behave themselves.
While it's not always effective, call your local animal control and
report the irresponsible pet owners- that's not going to make you feel
better if the junkyard dog next door keeps you up all night, but it's
about all you can do.

Incalculable property damage done. Whole houses full of
carpet destroyed, furniture, grass, window sills, siding all destroyed
by dogs.

People do that too. When a dog does it, it's usually the owners'
fault.

Men, women and especially small children maimed and killed by
dogs. I know of a few tragic cases just in my circle of acquaintances
over the years and seeing some of the dogs people kept, I'm actually
surprised there weren't more.

Why is that surprising? I know you probably will not buy it, but most
dogs aren't any more likely to attack you than your neighbor is. Some
of them look really mean, but then again, so have many of my
neighbors. Dogs are social animals, and they act accordingly.

I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?

Here's the thing I wanted to reply to the most- my wife and I decided
not to have any children. I really, really wanted children, but my
side of the family tree is so full of crime, violence, mental illness
and drug abuse that we can't justify creating children that are likely
to be flawed enough to represent a danger to the community just
because we *want* to. We may adopt someday- but the expense and
stress of the process is too much for us right now, so our two dogs
are our surrogate children. They are in fact hunting dogs- they both
go pheasant hunting, and the beagle is a good rabbit dog. Neither of
them are allowed to bark outside of the house unless they are working,
and each of them are tethered when we let them out so they do not
scare people walking past. The point is that there *are* good reasons
to own dogs, and there are responsible owners. There are also jerks-
but they should not be held up as examples of typical pet owners and
used as a justification for shutting out a type of animal that has
evolved alongside humanity for tens of thousands of years as a trusted
companion, guard, and co-worker. We made them what they are today,
and to turn our backs on dogs is to break a very deep commitment to a
species that helped us in many ways to become what we are today.
Useless? Pointless? Hardly...

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

BUT, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!! Let's get rid of dog owners. Then the dog
problem will go away, right? I mean, what possible good does a dog owner
do?
He's a waste of air and a drain on the economy. At the very least, we
should
be neutering and spaying dog owners, not their dogs. That would fix the
problem. Don't you think?




I'd like to include the parents of _those kids_ in the new extermination
camps. The taggers and mailbox bashers, motorcycle riders who do donuts on
lawns and public areas.... Why is it kids have such a problem with property
rights? "I didn't know who owned it." Well, you knew it wasn't _you_, why
isn't that enough?

On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:49:45 -0500, the inscrutable Patriarch
spake:

Hax Planx wrote in
t.net:

Am I the only person who thinks dog ownership is a really bad idea for
most people? snip I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?

If, as someone said, the measure of a person's intelligence is how much he
agrees with you, then you are an absolute genius!

I agree totally, too, Glenn! Most dogs are abused and most dog owners
abuse their neighbors by letting the damned things bark, too, Hax.


I replaced a front lawn with roses, at least in part because I was tired of
cleaning up after other peoples' dogs. It's _not_ less work, or less
water, but it smells better!

Excellent. Now instead of tiring you with the mower, it pricks you
with thorns. (Half my front yard is in roses, too, but I haven't
brought in the truckloads of rock to replace that damned green stuff
on the rest of it yet. I HATE lawns.)


Patriarch

ps: I have a neighbor with a bumper sticker: "Life begins when the kids
move out and the last dog dies!"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I love it!


--
If you turn the United States on its side,
everything loose will fall to California.
--Frank Lloyd Wright

On Mon, 30 May 2005 03:24:47 -0400, the inscrutable "Upscale"
spake:

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
surprised there weren't more. I know most people aren't going to agree
with me, but it really doesn't make much sense. Most of us don't have
any sheep to herd or fox to hunt, so what's the point?

Just to play devil's advocate.

1) There's a definite, proven psychological benefit to owning a pet. Dogs in

Now cite the amount of violence in the world brought about by the
incessant barking of said dogs.


BUT, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!! Let's get rid of dog owners. Then the dog
problem will go away, right? I mean, what possible good does a dog owner do?
He's a waste of air and a drain on the economy. At the very least, we should
be neutering and spaying dog owners, not their dogs. That would fix the
problem. Don't you think?



Again, I LOVE IT!


--
If you turn the United States on its side,
everything loose will fall to California.
--Frank Lloyd Wright

Upscale says...

1) There's a definite, proven psychological benefit to owning a pet. Dogs in
most cases rate at the higher end of the scale here. Result, people feel
better, many probably live longer because of it. In our age of obesity, dogs
are a source of exercise for their owners. Maybe not much in many cases, but
every little bit helps.

But just think how much psychological benefit there would be to actually
having a human relationship. I know there are people who substitute
dog/cat relationships with human relationships, and that is not a good
thing.

2) Dogs have been known to save lives. Getting someone's attention in case
of fire, coming to the rescue of child, waking someone from sleep for
whatever.

Maybe sometimes, but we have things like smoke detectors, motion sensors
and burglar alarms too. Dogs aren't very good in this regard, because
they bark at everything that goes bump in the night and it is a million
to one against it being dangerous. The dog barking just becomes a part
of everyday life that isn't taken seriously.

3) Dogs have had a long history of working in emergency services. Smelling
out drugs, smelling out explosives, sacrificing themselves for their
handlers/owners and other things I can't think of right now.

But those dogs aren't the ones I was talking about. They are sheltered
and maintained by people who are paid to do it.

4) Dogs usually protect their environment against thieves, owner's property
or perhaps someone who would harm a family child.

But that is just sensationalist fantasy. If your home is going to be
robbed, it will be when you are not at home. If you are not at home and
the dog is, the dog can be dealt with by the criminal. I've seen shows
where a burglar goes into a house, pats the dog on the head, and then
goes about his business. Throw some doggie treats in the bathroom and
close the door on the dog when it runs after them and no more doggie.
If a dog is raised to be good with children, it won't be a very good
guard dog. But in fact, dogs are a much greater danger to children than
random violence.

Everything that Hax Planx has said is true and more. I think the biggest
problem though isn't dogs, it's by far the people that own them and don't
control them. Sure, let your dogs **** every five feet wherever they travel,
I enjoy going out in the winter and seeing yellow snow everywhere. Let them
**** on the sidewalk or a neighbours lawn without pooping and scooping. It's
manure right? You're just helping out your neighbour. Let them run wild
getting into garbage cans. Your neighbour must not have packaged his garbage
properly, so that's not the dog's fault, right? Certainly not your fault for
letting the dog run free. And yes, it's alright to abandon your dog when
it's sick or you just don't want it anymore. It's not your fault it got old.
Beat your dogs or just be plain mean to them, turning them into gnashing,
aggressive animals. Anybody like the postman or a girl-guide selling cookies
who comes into your yard should know better, right?

BUT, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!! Let's get rid of dog owners. Then the dog
problem will go away, right? I mean, what possible good does a dog owner do?
He's a waste of air and a drain on the economy. At the very least, we should
be neutering and spaying dog owners, not their dogs. That would fix the
problem. Don't you think?



I know you are just trying to be funny with that last paragraph, but it
is actually a good example of the straw man arguments used when
emotional subjects like this come up. What we really need is a change
of culture and for some people to stand up and say that the Emperor is
ass naked and that there should be a rational component to the decision
of becoming a dog owner. The laws the way they stand are hardly unfair
to dog owners. We can't play loud music anytime we want, but a dog
barking all the time is OK. We aren't allowed to maintain eyesores or
safety and sanitation nuisances, unless they are somehow related to dog
ownership.

Hax Planx wrote:

We can't play loud music anytime we want, but a dog
barking all the time is OK. We aren't allowed to maintain eyesores or
safety and sanitation nuisances, unless they are somehow related to dog
ownership.


Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

Prometheus says...

I can't speak for *most people*, but I love my dogs, and they're an
important part of my family.

Well, I won't try to talk you out of your beliefs, because they are
emotional rather than rational.

It is? What did a cat ever do to you? I'd rather have cats in the
house (and the strays in the neighborhood) than disease-carrying
vermin that try to get in and spoil my food. Of course, that's just
one guy's opinion.

They've done plenty. They do many of the same things dogs do, just on a
smaller scale and they actually can do a lot of the same damage rodents
do, like making homes for themselves under houses, tearing out
insulation, etc. Ever heard a cat in heat, or a cat fight? It ranks up
there with a dog barking. As for property damage inside a house, cats
are almost up there with dogs scratching furniture and urinating on
everything. Rodents can be controlled with traps and denying them
access to your house. If mice are getting in, then you have a lot of
maintenance to do. Few cats are good mousers, because the cat should be
a little wild and most of all HUNGRY, and most house cats don't qualify.

Now these are good reasons to dislike some dogs, and I tend to agree
that there are a lot of problem animals around. However, it's like
anything else- you see and hear the ones that are causing trouble, and
have no reason to notice the majority of them that behave themselves.
While it's not always effective, call your local animal control and
report the irresponsible pet owners- that's not going to make you feel
better if the junkyard dog next door keeps you up all night, but it's
about all you can do.

I have yet to meet the dog that wasn't a problem. All my neighbors'
dogs bark at anything that moves or makes a sound. Nice ones, mean
ones, big ones, small ones, it's all the same racket.

People do that too. When a dog does it, it's usually the owners'
fault.

No doubt some people don't have much more sense than animals, but these
kinds of people aren't adopted by well-meaning people and moved into
their homes. For millions of otherwise clean people with well
maintained homes, pets do the overwhelming majority of property damage.
I've never lived with a dog or cat that doesn't have 'accidents', and
once they get started, it only goes downhill from there. They all shed
fur, knock things over, cats scratch, dogs chew and on and on.

Why is that surprising? I know you probably will not buy it, but most
dogs aren't any more likely to attack you than your neighbor is. Some
of them look really mean, but then again, so have many of my
neighbors. Dogs are social animals, and they act accordingly.

You're right, I don't buy it. No human being has ever chased me trying
to, and sometimes succeeding at, biting me. Moreover, that statement
isn't born out by some easily verifiable facts. There about five
million dog bites and 350,000 emergency room visits each year because of
them. 77% of victims are children.

Here's the thing I wanted to reply to the most- my wife and I decided
not to have any children. I really, really wanted children, but my
side of the family tree is so full of crime, violence, mental illness
and drug abuse that we can't justify creating children that are likely
to be flawed enough to represent a danger to the community just
because we *want* to. We may adopt someday- but the expense and
stress of the process is too much for us right now, so our two dogs
are our surrogate children. They are in fact hunting dogs- they both
go pheasant hunting, and the beagle is a good rabbit dog. Neither of
them are allowed to bark outside of the house unless they are working,
and each of them are tethered when we let them out so they do not
scare people walking past. The point is that there *are* good reasons
to own dogs, and there are responsible owners. There are also jerks-
but they should not be held up as examples of typical pet owners and
used as a justification for shutting out a type of animal that has
evolved alongside humanity for tens of thousands of years as a trusted
companion, guard, and co-worker. We made them what they are today,
and to turn our backs on dogs is to break a very deep commitment to a
species that helped us in many ways to become what we are today.
Useless? Pointless? Hardly...

I would strenuously argue that dogs are a poor substitute for a family.
If you are worried about bad blood, then you should really think twice
about adoption. It isn't the stable, well-grounded and intelligent who
give up their children for adoption. Sorry if that ruffles any
feathers, but I'm just trying to say it like it is, however painful that
may be. I'm not trying to end the existence of canis domesticus. I'm
just trying to get people to think of the consequences of dog ownership
in a more rational way. Too much of our culture when it comes to dogs
is based on Walt Disney and other childrens fantasy stories. If all
dogs go to heaven, then hell may have some distinct advantages. If my
neighbors had one dog each, that alone would be a huge improvement.
Even dog advocacy groups tell us there are too many dogs and that dog
owners have to change and spend even more time and money on these
already high maintenance beasts. Unfortunately, people don't easily
change, and there could be another message going out to the public that
is never heard--the alternative of not owning a dog at all. If there
were fewer dogs, more of them might actually get the maintenance they
need.

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
emotional subjects like this come up. What we really need is a change
of culture and for some people to stand up and say that the Emperor is
ass naked and that there should be a rational component to the decision
of becoming a dog owner. The laws the way they stand are hardly unfair
to dog owners. We can't play loud music anytime we want, but a dog
barking all the time is OK. We aren't allowed to maintain eyesores or
safety and sanitation nuisances, unless they are somehow related to dog
ownership.

If you're not there already, perhaps you should move to Britain. I believe
there's a sizable population there that is advocating the inception of a
bunch of "Nanny" laws. You'd fit right in.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message

Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

My neighbor complained to the dog warden about another neighbor's dogs (five
of them) and he was told nothing he could do until 10:00 PM. Does that make
him a straw man?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message

Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

My neighbor complained to the dog warden about another neighbor's dogs
(five
of them) and he was told nothing he could do until 10:00 PM. Does that
make
him a straw man?



Makes it a noise ordinance.

Can't complain about the "Boompa, Boompa" cars riding by until after hours
either.

I couldn't resist adding to this OT rant.

When my wife was 16 or so and still living with her parents they had a
German Shepard dog, one day as her father was pulling into the drive
way a couple guys with guns jumped into his car and drove him around
the block relieving him of all his valuables. When they got back to
the house they were going to go inside but the large barking dog
convinced them otherwise. What do you think the thugs would have done
to my future wife if the dog deterrent weren't there?

We now have a Shepard mix dog, very well trained and doesn't bark
unless necessary. The rat dogs that live next door bark whenever I am
in the backyard, very annoying. The key to well behaved city dogs is
lots of exercise and training. When a poorly trained dog starts
eating the house the owner banishes them to the backyard where the
neighbors suffer. A few minutes of training and a walk a day can do
wonders for a 'problem' dog.

Back on thread, use tile, it's tough and wear resistant especially if
you regularly use that silicone grout sealer stuff like we are all
suppose to. Some selectively placed carpets with padded backers will
help with dropped items and make working in the kitchen a bit more
comfortable.

On Mon, 30 May 2005 18:31:39 GMT, the inscrutable Lobby Dosser
spake:

Hax Planx wrote:

We can't play loud music anytime we want, but a dog
barking all the time is OK. We aren't allowed to maintain eyesores or
safety and sanitation nuisances, unless they are somehow related to dog
ownership.

Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

Yes, some laws are out there. Being enforced? Bull Fracking SH*T!

About the only time I've heard them being enforced is when it's after
10pm, and then it's only after a dozen calls to the cops who try to
pass it on to the City's Code Enforcement officer. He doesn't even
start work until 9am and is WELL gone before 5:01pm hits. And if you
live in the -county-, good frackin' luck at any time of day.

I've been exposed to this from pet owners in every city I've ever
lived or visited. I'll bet there's not a single person here who
doesn't have a nuisance animal living near them, Lobby. The only
folks who don't think it's a nuisance for a dog to bark 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, are the pet owners themselves. They don't hear
it for some reason. sigh

When I'm crowned king, pets and religion will be outlawed as the world
becomes a better place. bseg


--
If you turn the United States on its side,
everything loose will fall to California.
--Frank Lloyd Wright

Upscale says...

If you're not there already, perhaps you should move to Britain. I believe
there's a sizable population there that is advocating the inception of a
bunch of "Nanny" laws. You'd fit right in.

I'm not surprised that people in England would want to discourage
obnoxious neighbors with an average of over 800 people per square mile.
If you could give some examples of these proposed laws, I could better
tell you whether I agree with them or not. We have noise laws now,
grass can't be over 12", old cars need current plates, etc. If you ever
lived in a neighborhood where 'do what thou wilt is the whole of the
law', it is easy to understand why they exist, and why some communities
have covenants that go beyond that. I would agree it is ridiculous to
dictate the color of a person's house, but putting the kibosh on
barking, snarling dogs is just common sense.

Lobby Dosser says...

Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

In some areas maybe, but in general I would say that enforcement is very
lax. If it is an extreme case or something bad happens, then some
ordinances might be enforced, but I have seldom seen it here in the rust
belt. Maybe if a person wanted to be the neighbor from hell, they might
get something done about some less extreme but still bothersome cases,
but that's what it would take. I don't want to go to war with my
neighbors, but fewer dogs would be nice, and I know for a fact that many
is the time they don't want to hear the dogs any more than I do. I just
wish people would think more before getting a dog. People see puppies
and can't resist taking one home, but then we all live with the
consequences when it isn't a puppy anymore.

Hax Planx wrote:

Lobby Dosser says...

Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

In some areas maybe, but in general I would say that enforcement is
very lax. If it is an extreme case or something bad happens, then
some ordinances might be enforced, but I have seldom seen it here in
the rust belt. Maybe if a person wanted to be the neighbor from hell,
they might get something done about some less extreme but still
bothersome cases, but that's what it would take. I don't want to go
to war with my neighbors, but fewer dogs would be nice, and I know for
a fact that many is the time they don't want to hear the dogs any more
than I do. I just wish people would think more before getting a dog.
People see puppies and can't resist taking one home, but then we all
live with the consequences when it isn't a puppy anymore.


How about talking to the neighbors? If that doesn't work, maybe some
conflict resolution. Where I live - upper left coast - we have a city
sponsored, volunteer conflict resolution team. Haven't had to use it, but
as I understand it they'll resolve the situation peacefully or, if there
is a violation, bring in the hired guns.

I am a dog owner, but cannot abide 24x7 barkers.

On Mon, 30 May 2005 13:44:20 -0500, Hax Planx
wrote:

Now these are good reasons to dislike some dogs, and I tend to agree
that there are a lot of problem animals around. However, it's like
anything else- you see and hear the ones that are causing trouble, and
have no reason to notice the majority of them that behave themselves.
While it's not always effective, call your local animal control and
report the irresponsible pet owners- that's not going to make you feel
better if the junkyard dog next door keeps you up all night, but it's
about all you can do.

I have yet to meet the dog that wasn't a problem. All my neighbors'
dogs bark at anything that moves or makes a sound. Nice ones, mean
ones, big ones, small ones, it's all the same racket.

There are several dogs in my neighborhood that are never a problem.
There are a couple on the next block that are always barking- like I
said, you just notice the ones that are causing the trouble.

People do that too. When a dog does it, it's usually the owners'
fault.

No doubt some people don't have much more sense than animals, but these
kinds of people aren't adopted by well-meaning people and moved into
their homes. For millions of otherwise clean people with well
maintained homes, pets do the overwhelming majority of property damage.
I've never lived with a dog or cat that doesn't have 'accidents', and
once they get started, it only goes downhill from there. They all shed
fur, knock things over, cats scratch, dogs chew and on and on.

I really don't see it. One of my dogs sheds in the spring and fall,
but that's about it. A quick brushing and vacuuming takes care of it.
I've seen kids do plenty of property damage too, but you're not
advocating doing away with them.

Why is that surprising? I know you probably will not buy it, but most
dogs aren't any more likely to attack you than your neighbor is. Some
of them look really mean, but then again, so have many of my
neighbors. Dogs are social animals, and they act accordingly.

You're right, I don't buy it. No human being has ever chased me trying
to, and sometimes succeeding at, biting me. Moreover, that statement
isn't born out by some easily verifiable facts. There about five
million dog bites and 350,000 emergency room visits each year because of
them. 77% of victims are children.

I've seen people get beat up in the parking lot of the local grocery
store for wearing the wrong color shirt on the same day as a big
football game. Not a jersey- just a colored shirt. It's happened
more than once, and I'm sure I'll see it again. I've seen people who
read books get beat up for being nerds. I've seen straight people
beat up for looking "queer". I've seen racist groups burn down
buildings because the wrong color people live in them. I've seen
evangelical Christians beat their own children until they need to be
hospitalized. These are just some of the things I've seen with my own
eyes, not even counting the stuff on the news, which displays an even
greater degree of stupidity.

In 1942-1945, over six million people were killed by their neighbors.
Right after that, Stalin killed well over ten million of his
neighbors.
In 1994, over a million were killed in Rwanda by their neighbors.
Those are just a couple of the ones they make Hollywood movies about,
and most people can relate to. When is the last time you saw the
neighborhood pooches getting together to commit genocide? When things
like that happen, it's not some random blip on CNN about a faraway
land, they are friends, families and neighbors to someone.

But that doesn't mean we should do away with people- and a couple of
dog bites doesn't mean we should eradicate dogs. For every bad thing,
there is a corresponding good. If all you want to see is the bad,
then that is all you're going to see.

I would strenuously argue that dogs are a poor substitute for a family.
If you are worried about bad blood, then you should really think twice
about adoption. It isn't the stable, well-grounded and intelligent who
give up their children for adoption. Sorry if that ruffles any
feathers, but I'm just trying to say it like it is, however painful that
may be.

Not always- there are a lot of orphans in the third world whose
parents died from disease. There are a lot of Chinese children who
are unwanted because of the government's birth policies. If you're
just taking about children in the US, you may be right in some cases,
but even here there are children whose parents were killed in
accidents and the like.

I'm not trying to end the existence of canis domesticus. I'm
just trying to get people to think of the consequences of dog ownership
in a more rational way. Too much of our culture when it comes to dogs
is based on Walt Disney and other childrens fantasy stories.

Here you're being sensible.

If all
dogs go to heaven, then hell may have some distinct advantages.

And then you follow it with nonsense.

If my
neighbors had one dog each, that alone would be a huge improvement.

You'd better have just one dog, eh Mao? Granted, no one needs a dozen
unless they've got a sled team, but two are managable for responsible
owners.

Even dog advocacy groups tell us there are too many dogs and that dog
owners have to change and spend even more time and money on these
already high maintenance beasts. Unfortunately, people don't easily
change, and there could be another message going out to the public that
is never heard--the alternative of not owning a dog at all.

Lots of people don't own dogs- where do you get this stuff?

If there
were fewer dogs, more of them might actually get the maintenance they
need.

There's nothing really wrong with what you're saying here, but your
rhetoric is all over the place. Some of it is sensible, and some of
it just seems like irrational hatred. Sure, pet owners should be held
responsible for their pets, just as parents should be held responsible
for their children. Heck, I even try to be responsible for my trees,
and manage them so that they don't drop branches on others' property.
But it really doesn't seem like responsibility is what you're after-
it sounds like the undertone to everything you've said is "there
aughtta be a law..." This sort of crap does nothing but clog up our
already overly legislative society with more nonsense. If you really
hate dogs, then the next time you move you could consider finding a
place with a neighborhood association that prohibits them, and leave
everyone else alone.

Prometheus says...

In 1942-1945, over six million people were killed by their neighbors.
Right after that, Stalin killed well over ten million of his
neighbors.

Congratulations. You just invoked Godwin's Law. Thread over. You
lose.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 11:58:19 -0500, Hax Planx wrote:
Prometheus says...

In 1942-1945, over six million people were killed by their neighbors.
Right after that, Stalin killed well over ten million of his
neighbors.

Congratulations. You just invoked Godwin's Law. Thread over. You
lose.

Technically, Godwin's doesn't come into play unless the poster compares
the opponent with hitler or the nazis directly. He may have but not in
what you quote here, so it's hard to say.

Lobby Dosser says...

How about talking to the neighbors? If that doesn't work, maybe some
conflict resolution. Where I live - upper left coast - we have a city
sponsored, volunteer conflict resolution team. Haven't had to use it, but
as I understand it they'll resolve the situation peacefully or, if there
is a violation, bring in the hired guns.

I am a dog owner, but cannot abide 24x7 barkers.

If I thought it would do any good, I might try it, but it's just part of
the culture that is ingrained into people. Even if I got some things
changed, I would be the mean guy that doesn't like dogs, wants to form a
police state, etc. See the post from Prometheus and you'll see what I
mean. By far the greatest beneficiaries of fewer dogs would be dog
owners themselves, which is why I started this thread. But there would
be a huge increase in everybody's quality of life if more people would
just do a reality check before bringing home another puppy.