This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

Loose tenons are just a different way of doing it. I'm not sure why he
does it that way so often, but in situations were you have ALOT of them
to do, the router method can make quick work of it. I use a simple
homemade jig for my loose tenon mortises. You don't need a
multirouter. But when I only have a couple to do, I usually do
integral tenons on the bandsaw.

Actually I am sure I saw Marks use his dado head to do a tenon the
other week...

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware
of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier
to
make

It appears that they are easier to make if you have already dropped
$2700 (plus the price of the router) on the multirouter.

The other advantage is that you do not need a special bit to the
tennons on rail and stile doors. For the windows I am making at the
moment loose tenons would not provide enough strength, but for cabinet
doors where you don't need as much strength and for entry doors where
you have a lot of tenon surface area this is is not as big an issue.

stoutman wrote:

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon
joinery.

1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can
be their actual length NOT their actual length
PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to
make a mistake

2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon
width and planed to the needed thickness you
can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross
cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're
not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the
wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed
rail.

3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood
you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the
tenon really strong - try ebony!


Here's a great example of why loose tenons..
http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence...op/page26.html

charlie b

I googled a little and was able to answer my own question. oops.

http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/L...nery_90627.asp

I think he has convinced me to try loose m&t's on my next project.





"stoutman" wrote in message
. com...
This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

On Sat, 21 May 2005 21:32:58 GMT, the inscrutable "stoutman"
spake:

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

I've seen only one real tenon in the past two years of his shows.
Don't ask which project. I don't recall.


Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

Easier.


I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Soooo, do your projects get done in under half an hour, too?
(Ah dinna thin so.)

-
The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

I don't know which type is better, but I PREFER to make loose tenons.
It seems less "fussy" to me.

Dave

stoutman wrote:

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

I just saw one of his shows today where he used a regular M&T joint. I would
imagine that the reason he doesn't use them more often is time. Loose
tennons are much faster. That's all I use.

"stoutman" wrote in message
. com...
This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

On Sat, 21 May 2005 16:24:11 -0700, the inscrutable charlie b
spake:

stoutman wrote:

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon
joinery.

1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can
be their actual length NOT their actual length
PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to
make a mistake

Yeah, and two fewer chances, too. gd&r


2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon
width and planed to the needed thickness you
can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross
cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're
not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the
wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed
rail.

Ayup, and you can't just make the bed a bit shorter. Mattresses and
box springs don't squish much in length.


3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood
you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the
tenon really strong - try ebony!

Wouldn't you want the same (or physically similar) wood so they had
the same expansion/contraction rates? That's what I've always read.

-
The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

It appears that they are easier to make if you have already dropped
$2700 (plus the price of the router) on the multirouter.

The other advantage is that you do not need a special bit to the
tennons on rail and stile doors. For the windows I am making at the
moment loose tenons would not provide enough strength, but for
cabinet
doors where you don't need as much strength and for entry doors where
you have a lot of tenon surface area this is is not as big an issue.

Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than
integral tenons?

"stoutman" wrote in
. com:

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him
cut a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.


You just recently started watching. He does loose tenons with a plunge
router quite regularly, when it makes more sense. The three axis motion of
the Multirouter is fine when the pieces fit the tables well enough, but if
the project gets large, the value is reduced.

Some of the benches and tables, where he cuts the joinery in solid stock,
then shapes to curves, are much easier to do with the plunge router than
with the Multirouter.

DJM seems to look for projects to show how various tools and processes are
used, as though the process shown is at least as important as the finished
product. That's one of the reasons I watch him.

Norm's good, too.

BTW, I saw the Krenov/Carpenter Masters show again this evening for a
little bit. That's another style of show I like. Norm has done a few of
these, and Roy does them several times a season.

Find a project to try the loose tenons. You'll be pleased.

Patriarch

"Patriarch" wrote in message

BTW, I saw the Krenov/Carpenter Masters show again this evening for a
little bit.

I was running through erasing duplicates, got distracted and erased that
particular show before I even got to see it. (I guess really do _need_ one
more shop tool - a dvd recorder to hook up to my cable set top box.)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/05

"stoutman" wrote in message
. com...
This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

This was demonstrated on diynet..

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hi_too...119901,00.html

The process is no more complicated than creating a dowel joint, (and in
fact, the drill jig could be used to create dowel holes if desired.) The
secret is that once the jig is clamped to the workpiece, and you drill a set
of holes, there is a slide mechanism, that allows the jig to move exactly
half the distance between the holes. Sounds complicated, but after watching
a demonstration, it is a very simple process.

(shims are provided in the kit, if offset tenons are to be used.)

http://www.beadlock.com/ sells the jig and the necessary router bits to
create just about any size, or length of loose tenons, that you would desire
or you can buy the tenon stock premade. (The router bits to make the tenon
stock cost more that then jig...)

I have NOT bought one of these, yet, and I would certainly appreciate any
downside to the system, that I'm not seeing.......

James...

On Sat 21 May 2005 10:54:29p, wrote in
ups.com:


Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than
integral tenons?

I recall an article in a wood mag that I can't remember, that ran tests on
three different styles; mortise & tenon, loose tenon, and - I think - half
lap joints.

It was a while ago and I can't remember the tests they used. But I *do*
remember their conclusion that the loose tenons took the most abuse, and
they couldn't really give a good explanation why.

The half laps failed first, and their final word was that although the
loose tenons got the highest marks, they had to put so much stress on both
the other styles to make them fail that in their minds there was no
realworld difference.

And as others have said, there's other good reasons. You can cut the wood
to length without worrying about the tenons. You can set up a nice jig to
batch cut mortises in everything. You can make the tenons out of whatever
you've got laying around, and you can crank out tenon stock that will
ALWAYS fit nice and snug.

And when you've got a three thousand dollar mortise maker, well jeez. The
only reason I can think of to use standard tenons is when you want to make
a nice-looking through tenon.

Dan wrote:

On Sat 21 May 2005 10:54:29p, wrote in
ups.com:


Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than
integral tenons?

I recall an article in a wood mag that I can't remember, that ran tests on
three different styles; mortise & tenon, loose tenon, and - I think - half
lap joints.

It was a while ago and I can't remember the tests they used. But I *do*
remember their conclusion that the loose tenons took the most abuse, and
they couldn't really give a good explanation why.

The half laps failed first, and their final word was that although the
loose tenons got the highest marks, they had to put so much stress on both
the other styles to make them fail that in their minds there was no
realworld difference.

And as others have said, there's other good reasons. You can cut the wood
to length without worrying about the tenons. You can set up a nice jig to
batch cut mortises in everything. You can make the tenons out of whatever
you've got laying around, and you can crank out tenon stock that will
ALWAYS fit nice and snug.

And when you've got a three thousand dollar mortise maker, well jeez. The
only reason I can think of to use standard tenons is when you want to make
a nice-looking through tenon.


I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a guy
who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.

His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently his
opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how tightly they
fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

Let me add to the confusion.

Would a biscuit and glue provide the same level of stregnth? I'm
adding a bottom shelf to a coffee table and am trying to decide on the
joinery for the shelf support. The shelf is 28" square made of makore.
I'd like to use biscuit cause it's quick and I already have the tool.


Any thoughts?

gregg wrote:

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm



Thanks for a good read!!

On Sun 22 May 2005 12:20:15p, gregg wrote in
news
I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a
guy who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.

His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently
his opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how
tightly they fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.

Yeah, I'd like to give that a try sometime.

For those of you who just joined in (and to make sure Saville and I are on
the same page), a drawbore is when you make a M&T joint and then you run a
dowel through it - except when you drill the hole you stop as soon as you
hit the tenon, take the tenon back out, and then drill the tenon hole about
a 16th or so back. Then you put the tenon back in, whittle the tip of the
dowel so it'll fit into the offset hole, and whack it in the rest of the
way so it pulls the tenon in, and the tenon now has a constant pull into
the mortise.

Am I correct? I heard there are also metal pins that are used to line up
the holes. Put in the drawbore pin, whack it till it's inside the hole,
then follow it with the dowel and when the pin falls out the other side
you're done. Sure seems to me that would be just fine without glue.

Of course, never having tried it, I probably don't know all the things that
could be done wrong. Like drilling the tenon hole too far back or too close
to one edge or something else I can't see till I've already screwed it up.

Dan

Lobby Dosser wrote:

gregg wrote:

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm



Thanks for a good read!!


you're welcome. Thanks for the kind words.


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

Dan wrote:

On Sun 22 May 2005 12:20:15p, gregg wrote in
news
I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a
guy who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.

His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently
his opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how
tightly they fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.

Yeah, I'd like to give that a try sometime.

For those of you who just joined in (and to make sure Saville and I are on
the same page), a drawbore is when you make a M&T joint and then you run a
dowel through it - except when you drill the hole you stop as soon as you
hit the tenon, take the tenon back out, and then drill the tenon hole
about a 16th or so back.

Back towards the shoulder...(just to be sure we are on the same page)

Then you put the tenon back in, whittle the tip
of the dowel so it'll fit into the offset hole, and whack it in the rest
of the way so it pulls the tenon in, and the tenon now has a constant pull
into the mortise.

Am I correct?

that's how I understand the process.

I heard there are also metal pins that are used to line up
the holes. Put in the drawbore pin, whack it till it's inside the hole,
then follow it with the dowel and when the pin falls out the other side
you're done. Sure seems to me that would be just fine without glue.

Of course, never having tried it, I probably don't know all the things
that could be done wrong. Like drilling the tenon hole too far back or too
close to one edge or something else I can't see till I've already screwed
it up.

Dan


In this article the guy made a drawbore M&T, and then sawed through it to
show you what happens to the pin..it deforms into a very slight U shape.
This shape also helps to lock the pin in, according to the woodworker.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

"J&KCopeland" wrote in
:

I have NOT bought one of these, yet, and I would certainly appreciate
any downside to the system, that I'm not seeing.......

Works as advertised. You sometimes have to heat up the tenon stock
to shrink it to fit because it absorbs a little moisture. And put the
drill in the hole a few times to make a nice clean hole...


ken

If you're going to use one or more draw pegs to
hold a M&T joint together without the use
of glue
CHAMFER THE END OF THE PEG
AND
CHAMFER THE HOLE IN THE TENON

Sorry for yelling but I wanted to get
your attention. By chamfering the
end of the peg and the the hole they'll
self align Rather than SPLITTING!
DAMHKT.

I used draw pegs on the M&T joints
on the base drawer unit to legs joints
just in case I ever need to dismantle
this beast for any reason. Nice
to have reversible joinery - sliding
dovetails are also neat to use - just
in case.

charlie b

"stoutman" wrote in message
. com...
This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut
a
"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...



dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the
right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
....mjh

On Sun 22 May 2005 04:42:08p, charlie b wrote in
:

If you're going to use one or more draw pegs to
hold a M&T joint together without the use
of glue
CHAMFER THE END OF THE PEG
AND
CHAMFER THE HOLE IN THE TENON

Ow.

Sorry for yelling but I wanted to get
your attention.

S'okay. Just wasn't expecting it, that's all.

By chamfering the
end of the peg and the the hole they'll
self align Rather than SPLITTING!

I figured I'd want a good chamfer on the pin, but never considered the
hole.
Thank you. :-)

DAMHKT.

:-)

What a load.

"mike hide" wrote in message
news
dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the
right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
...mjh

Biscuits construction isn't as stout as M&T; just quicker. I use both,
depending on what I want to achieve.

Dave

mrcomp_ca wrote:

Let me add to the confusion.

Would a biscuit and glue provide the same level of stregnth? I'm
adding a bottom shelf to a coffee table and am trying to decide on the
joinery for the shelf support. The shelf is 28" square made of makore.
I'd like to use biscuit cause it's quick and I already have the tool.


Any thoughts?

You aren't serious, are you Mike?

"As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T
joint, but I'm betting you already know that...

Dave

mike hide wrote:

"stoutman" wrote in message
. com...

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut

a

"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...




dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the
right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
...mjh

"David" wrote in message
...
You aren't serious, are you Mike?

"As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T
joint, but I'm betting you already know that...

Dave

mike hide wrote:

"stoutman" wrote in message
. com...

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him
cut

a

"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware
of?
Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from
him.
Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...




dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make
the
right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
...mjh


I meant exactly what I said.

In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh

We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. g

M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".

NOW I find out you were talking pegged...

Dav

mike hide wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...

You aren't serious, are you Mike?

"As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T
joint, but I'm betting you already know that...

Dave

mike hide wrote:


"stoutman" wrote in message
. rr.com...


This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him

cut

a


"real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware

of?

Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to
make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from

him.

Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...




dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make

the

right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the
good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons
...mjh



I meant exactly what I said.

In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh

On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:29:42 -0400, "mike hide"
wrote:

I meant exactly what I said.

In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh

Were they drawn together by offset holes for the pegs? I have
furniture done with that technique that's never moved or had to be yet
adjusted. They built barns and ships that way. The M& T are snug,
but not dead tight, just drawn tight.

"mike hide" wrote in
news snip

dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make
the right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them
.in the good old days you would have been out the door if you made
loose tenons ...mjh


Mike,

Were you criticizing integral tenons, improperly fitted?

Because I was thinking we were discussing what is sometimes called a
'floating tenon'.

I'm loathe to have an argument where there is no disagreement. ;-) Those I
can find at home.

Patriarch

mike hide wrote:

I meant exactly what I said.

In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue
,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the
structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh


If you double draw pegged them they wouldn't

charlie b

"David" wrote in message
...
We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. g

M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".

NOW I find out you were talking pegged...


Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load direction,
the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist
movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or draw
boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be omitted
or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.

If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose
rungs on any chair.

"Dan" wrote in message
.. .

I figured I'd want a good chamfer on the pin, but never considered the
hole.

You don't. Best is to leave the pins square, so they cut rather than wedge
against the face grain. Sam principle as cut ends on a nail.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. g

M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".

NOW I find out you were talking pegged...


Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load
direction,
the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist
movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or
draw
boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be
omitted
or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.

If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose
rungs on any chair.


Tenons are subject to two loading conditions and hopefully not three . The
third a longitudinal load ,would call for a dovetail joint as opposed to a
modern mortice and tenon.[non pegged]. A pegged tenon would even take some
longitudinal load .

An unpegged tenon basically is subject to bending and shear loads . The
shear load is applied at 90 degrees to the tenons length, thus the load will
crush the glue film [which has thickness with a sloppy tenon /mortice.fit]
between the bottom of the tenon and the bottom mortice surface until the
shear load is resisted . this will result in a compression in the lower glue
thickness and a tension in the upper one with commensurate strains
[movement].

The second loading is due to the moment the load causes . This load results
in a point loading of the lower outer edge of the mortice and the upper
inner edge of the mortice . The former results in even more deformation of
the glue layer [in addition to that resulting from the shear load ] and a
reverse deformation at the upper inside of the tenon/mortice .

This loading condition occurs whether the tenon is pegged or not. The pegged
haunched tenon does somewhat better as the effctively the peg keeps the
tenon "engaged" and tight allowing the haunch to spread the bending loads..

The bottom line is in the case of a tight fitting mortice and tenon the glue
joint thicknesses are mininized resulting in the basic wood taking the loads
directly rather than allowing the loads to be transferred through the glue
thicknesses for which it is ill suited to do . Wood to wood contact results
in less flexure and longer joint life .

having a sloppy joint is akin the having a poor edge to edge joint and
hoping in the poorly fitting sactions that the glue will take the load ,we
all know how that works ....mjh

I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
"persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
then we are in agreement.

Dave

mike hide wrote:

"George" george@least wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...

We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples. g

M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".

NOW I find out you were talking pegged...


Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load

direction,

the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist
movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or

draw

boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be

omitted

or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.

If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose
rungs on any chair.



Tenons are subject to two loading conditions and hopefully not three . The
third a longitudinal load ,would call for a dovetail joint as opposed to a
modern mortice and tenon.[non pegged]. A pegged tenon would even take some
longitudinal load .

An unpegged tenon basically is subject to bending and shear loads . The
shear load is applied at 90 degrees to the tenons length, thus the load will
crush the glue film [which has thickness with a sloppy tenon /mortice.fit]
between the bottom of the tenon and the bottom mortice surface until the
shear load is resisted . this will result in a compression in the lower glue
thickness and a tension in the upper one with commensurate strains
[movement].

The second loading is due to the moment the load causes . This load results
in a point loading of the lower outer edge of the mortice and the upper
inner edge of the mortice . The former results in even more deformation of
the glue layer [in addition to that resulting from the shear load ] and a
reverse deformation at the upper inside of the tenon/mortice .

This loading condition occurs whether the tenon is pegged or not. The pegged
haunched tenon does somewhat better as the effctively the peg keeps the
tenon "engaged" and tight allowing the haunch to spread the bending loads..

The bottom line is in the case of a tight fitting mortice and tenon the glue
joint thicknesses are mininized resulting in the basic wood taking the loads
directly rather than allowing the loads to be transferred through the glue
thicknesses for which it is ill suited to do . Wood to wood contact results
in less flexure and longer joint life .

having a sloppy joint is akin the having a poor edge to edge joint and
hoping in the poorly fitting sactions that the glue will take the load ,we
all know how that works ....mjh

"David" wrote in message
...
I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
"persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
then we are in agreement.

Dave

A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
force fit..

A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
this thread is about isn't it?
obviously CW and David disagree....mjh

"mike hide" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
"persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
then we are in agreement.

Dave

A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
force fit..

A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
this thread is about isn't it?
obviously CW and David disagree....mjh


Excuse the interruption, but a "loose" tenon only means that the tenon is a
separate piece of wood.

It's a square dowel that can be as wide or long as necessary.

On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:49:18 -0400, "mike hide"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
...
I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make
them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to
"persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug,
then we are in agreement.

Dave

A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a
force fit..

A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what
this thread is about isn't it?

No, actually, it isn't. It was a discussion of the loose tenon method
of joinery employed by David Marks. Loose tenon, as in two mortises
and a separate tenon glued into each. I suspect that you're not so
completely dense as to have missed that and are just being your usual
obtuse self.

obviously CW and David disagree....

And rightly so. You're the one who's screwed up


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"mike hide" wrote in
:

A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is
what this thread is about isn't it?

Loose tenons and floating tenons are often used as synonymns, hence some of
the confusion.

For example: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00118.asp

I disagree with none of what you, Mike, have written in this thread.

Patriarch