Having visited many of the websites of contributors herein, I've been quite
curious as to some the economic aspects of selling ones turnings.

Please understand that I'm not seeking any specific information about
anyone, rather I'm simply interested in knowing a little about the
commercial aspect of turning wood. Specifically what sort of market exists
for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living selling one's
work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or retirement?

Please don't read anything into my inquiry. I'm not considering a change of
career. :-) I'm simply curious.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote:

Having visited many of the websites of contributors herein, I've been
quite curious as to some the economic aspects of selling ones
turnings.

Please understand that I'm not seeking any specific information about
anyone, rather I'm simply interested in knowing a little about the
commercial aspect of turning wood. Specifically what sort of market
exists for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living
selling one's work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or
retirement?

Please don't read anything into my inquiry. I'm not considering a
change of career. :-) I'm simply curious.

Max




Seems like all of the big name commercial turners supplement their income
from turning by writing books, doing videos and demos, and teaching
classes. I may be wrong, but that seems to indicate that turning for a
living is not all that profitable.

LD

Seems like all of the big name commercial turners supplement their income
from turning by writing books, doing videos and demos, and teaching
classes. I may be wrong, but that seems to indicate that turning for a
living is not all that profitable.


Unless working in a household accoutrements and / or furniture factory,
wood products business, technical products business where turned items
are needed as part of whatever is being produced... There are [probably]
factories 'turning out' home deco items for wealthy people out there.
Expensive stuff.

Alex

I'm sure a market exits for quality turnings as well, but I have a good time
selling my stuff at summer shows. Pays the habit, the heat, and "vacation"
for Susan and I as we do it. If you have an extraordinary expense, add a
Saturday. Got my Daughter's wedding gown this year.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...
Having visited many of the websites of contributors herein, I've been
quite
curious as to some the economic aspects of selling ones turnings.

Please understand that I'm not seeking any specific information about
anyone, rather I'm simply interested in knowing a little about the
commercial aspect of turning wood. Specifically what sort of market
exists
for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living selling one's
work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or retirement?

Please don't read anything into my inquiry. I'm not considering a change
of
career. :-) I'm simply curious.

Max

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:36:14 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:

Having visited many of the websites of contributors herein, I've been quite
curious as to some the economic aspects of selling ones turnings.

Please understand that I'm not seeking any specific information about
anyone, rather I'm simply interested in knowing a little about the
commercial aspect of turning wood. Specifically what sort of market exists
for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living selling one's
work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or retirement?

Please don't read anything into my inquiry. I'm not considering a change of
career. :-) I'm simply curious.

Max


I sell some of my woodworking stuff... no one in their right mind
would want my turnings...
I figure that anything I sell helps pay for present and future
tools..

Unless working in a household accoutrements and / or furniture factory,
wood products business, technical products business where turned items
are needed as part of whatever is being produced... There are [probably]
factories 'turning out' home deco items for wealthy people out there.
Expensive stuff.

Even then, I've seen chain stores carrying some not-so-bad turnings for
dirt-cheap prices. Workers in (name your poor country) can churn them out a
lot cheaper than people in wealthy countries can. If I recall the price
correctly, I saw a *reasonably* well-done hollow form about 10" in diameter
made from some Asian wood for about $25 in Target about a month ago. It
wasn't something that you'd submit to the Utah Symposium, but then again, it
certainly wasn't something you'd get out of a novice turner.

Shoot, even within the wealthy countries, some people still crank them
out pretty cheap. I was in a cafe the other day, and saw some turnings
being sold on consignment. I went over and looked at them, they were *very*
nicely done (well-designed, no tool marks, well-finished, overall very
beautiful) - and pretty cheap. Some very nice 5" lidded boxes w/finials
were selling for something like $20 or $25. I talked to the owner of the
cafe, there's a retired woodshop teacher in a nearby town that cranks them
out all day just for fun.

Maybe I'm just greedy and lazy, but to me, $20 wouldn't make it worth my
while to sharpen my chisel and rough out a piece of wood, let alone complete
a nice piece like those. Plus, I hate the idea of turning my enjoyable
hobby into an economically-binding chore.

The one area where it seems profitable (although I could be wrong) is in
the "high-class" turnings, for lack of a better word. You know, the nice
ones that you invest a lot of time in, but sell for four figures. But that
market is a niche of a niche, and unless you want to devote a lifetime to
it, it's probably not realistic for most people to expect to make it.

steve

"Steve Wolfe" wrote in message

Maybe I'm just greedy and lazy, but to me, $20 wouldn't make it worth
my
while to sharpen my chisel and rough out a piece of wood, let alone
complete
a nice piece like those. Plus, I hate the idea of turning my enjoyable
hobby into an economically-binding chore.

That's pretty much been my take on the concept of turning for cash. I
mostly hope to be able someday to turn nice enough pieces to give as gifts
to those who appreciate such items.

The one area where it seems profitable (although I could be wrong) is in
the "high-class" turnings, for lack of a better word. You know, the nice
ones that you invest a lot of time in, but sell for four figures. But
that
market is a niche of a niche, and unless you want to devote a lifetime to
it, it's probably not realistic for most people to expect to make it.

Recently my wife and I toured an exhibit of turnings, such as you describe
above, in a prestigious art gallery in Chicago. Many objects were in the
four figure category. I asked the gentleman if the turnings were selling
well. He said, "We've not sold any yet, but are very optimistic." The
exhibit was 2 weeks old, and the objects were superb, if pricey. Oh well.

Max

Hi Max,
I sell most of what I make, which is predominantly bowls and hollow vessels.
I'm not very prolific but sell about 20 pieces per year. In the past I have
sold them to friends, family and through a couple of craft boutiques. This
was not the best venue for this type of work (too expensive compare to other
items there) but it took no effort (i.e.: sitting in a booth) as it was all
sold by others for a small percentage. I recently have been accepted into a
new gallery in our town and will send all higher end pieces thru there. Its
a good deal as I will be the only woodturner and my stuff will be sitting
next to some pretty high paintings and other art. I still may do one
boutique a year (a friend of mine runs it) but will only sell small items
like kitchen magnets, ornaments and such.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...
Having visited many of the websites of contributors herein, I've been
quite
curious as to some the economic aspects of selling ones turnings.

Please understand that I'm not seeking any specific information about
anyone, rather I'm simply interested in knowing a little about the
commercial aspect of turning wood. Specifically what sort of market
exists
for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living selling one's
work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or retirement?

Please don't read anything into my inquiry. I'm not considering a change
of
career. :-) I'm simply curious.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
Specifically what sort of market exists
for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living selling one's
work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or retirement?

Depends what you mean by quality! If you mean high-end gallery or museum
quality then I can't help, other than to say that the higher the price
tag the harder and costlier it is to find your customer.

I make a living as a turner. Most of my time is spent on production
turning, aiming for a quality level that is adequate for the type of
item. Many people say that my dibbers are too nice to use in the garden.

I survive by having a mix of markets: online, tourists who stop by the
studio, and a few craftshows. I teach a little too. Most of my income is
from inexpensive production items $25 CDN. The icing on the cake comes
from having some more expensive items available for when that rare
customer comes by. I was at a show this weekend, it was really bad, and
I only took about 50% of last years sales. And I only did that well
because of one customer who accounted for 34% of my sales by buying
three good items. But its a real crap shoot as to whether that right
person will come along who appreciates your nicer work and, more
importantly, has the disposable income to pay for it.

That is my experience of the market here in rural Nova Scotia. One
fellow this weekend picked up a bowl and asked 'is that 65 cents, or
dollars?'. Things may be different where you live

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
Wedding Favors ~ Artisan Crafted Gifts ~ One-of-a-Kind Woodturning

A potter acquaintance once explained to me that, as a professional potter,
his "job" is to make pottery, teach classes, write articles and /or books ,
give workshops and lectures and basically do any thing that has to do with
pottery and pays him $$$$'s. It is a refreshing change to do something
different for a day or two or a week or to have some other project on the
back burner that will "advance the cause" and pay the bills. In spite of how
much you may enjoy working at the lathe you need to take a break.
Edward

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

Hi Max,
I sell most of what I make, which is predominantly bowls and hollow
vessels.
I'm not very prolific but sell about 20 pieces per year. In the past I
have
sold them to friends, family and through a couple of craft boutiques.
This
was not the best venue for this type of work (too expensive compare to
other
items there) but it took no effort (i.e.: sitting in a booth) as it was
all
sold by others for a small percentage. I recently have been accepted into
a
new gallery in our town and will send all higher end pieces thru there.
Its
a good deal as I will be the only woodturner and my stuff will be sitting
next to some pretty high paintings and other art. I still may do one
boutique a year (a friend of mine runs it) but will only sell small items
like kitchen magnets, ornaments and such.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

Your work appears excellent, Tony. It's easy to see why you've been
commercially successful.

Max

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
Specifically what sort of market exists
for quality turnings, and is it possible to make a living selling one's
work, or is it simply a supplement to one's income or retirement?

Depends what you mean by quality! If you mean high-end gallery or museum
quality then I can't help, other than to say that the higher the price
tag the harder and costlier it is to find your customer.

I make a living as a turner. Most of my time is spent on production
turning, aiming for a quality level that is adequate for the type of
item. Many people say that my dibbers are too nice to use in the garden.

I survive by having a mix of markets: online, tourists who stop by the
studio, and a few craftshows. I teach a little too. Most of my income is
from inexpensive production items $25 CDN. The icing on the cake comes
from having some more expensive items available for when that rare
customer comes by. I was at a show this weekend, it was really bad, and
I only took about 50% of last years sales. And I only did that well
because of one customer who accounted for 34% of my sales by buying
three good items. But its a real crap shoot as to whether that right
person will come along who appreciates your nicer work and, more
importantly, has the disposable income to pay for it.

That is my experience of the market here in rural Nova Scotia. One
fellow this weekend picked up a bowl and asked 'is that 65 cents, or
dollars?'. Things may be different where you live

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
Wedding Favors ~ Artisan Crafted Gifts ~ One-of-a-Kind Woodturning

Thanks for the response, Derek. Yours was pretty much the sort of info I
was seeking. Most interesting, and your work is beautiful. While I aspire
to the level that many of you have achieved, I know it will be a long road
before my stuff begins to even resemble some of the things I've seen on
these websites.

Max

Max

"Jo-Anne & Edward Tabachek" wrote in message

A potter acquaintance once explained to me that, as a professional potter,
his "job" is to make pottery, teach classes, write articles and /or books
,
give workshops and lectures and basically do any thing that has to do with
pottery and pays him $$$$'s. It is a refreshing change to do something
different for a day or two or a week or to have some other project on the
back burner that will "advance the cause" and pay the bills. In spite of
how
much you may enjoy working at the lathe you need to take a break.
Edward

For me my lathework is an escape, a catharsis really, from my professional
life. While I posed the original query about commercial turning, I can't
envision ever doing much beyond a tiny income supplementation, probably
during retirement. I do, however, admire those with the skills and
discipline to earn a living doing what they love.

Max

Thanks Max, but I don't think you can call me "commercially successful".
Lucky is more appropriate.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

Hi Max,
I sell most of what I make, which is predominantly bowls and hollow
vessels.
I'm not very prolific but sell about 20 pieces per year. In the past I
have
sold them to friends, family and through a couple of craft boutiques.
This
was not the best venue for this type of work (too expensive compare to
other
items there) but it took no effort (i.e.: sitting in a booth) as it was
all
sold by others for a small percentage. I recently have been accepted
into
a
new gallery in our town and will send all higher end pieces thru there.
Its
a good deal as I will be the only woodturner and my stuff will be
sitting
next to some pretty high paintings and other art. I still may do one
boutique a year (a friend of mine runs it) but will only sell small
items
like kitchen magnets, ornaments and such.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

Your work appears excellent, Tony. It's easy to see why you've been
commercially successful.

Max

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...
Thanks Max, but I don't think you can call me "commercially successful".
Lucky is more appropriate.
==========================
Tony,

Isn't "LUCK" when preparation meets opportunity?

Ken

Its either that or when Preparation meets H :-)
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Ken Moon" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...
Thanks Max, but I don't think you can call me "commercially successful".
Lucky is more appropriate.
==========================
Tony,

Isn't "LUCK" when preparation meets opportunity?

Ken

....And you can add to the list: Or has a spouse with a job, retirement
income, savings and house paid for from previous career, and on and
on..... And you can add to the list all artists in every medium that I
have spoken to about the subject. Since I "make my living" from turning,
I'm very interested in the subject.

Why is it that our society doesn't respect craftspeople as much as it does
lawyers, doctors, insurance people, etc.

Just my $.002

CD
boulder CO

(cindy drozda) wrote:


...And you can add to the list: Or has a spouse with a job, retirement
income, savings and house paid for from previous career, and on and
on..... And you can add to the list all artists in every medium that I
have spoken to about the subject. Since I "make my living" from
turning, I'm very interested in the subject.

Why is it that our society doesn't respect craftspeople as much as it
does lawyers, doctors, insurance people, etc.

I think it is based on perceived need. People need doctors, lawyers,
mechanics, etc. They can 'get along' without craftspeople. Though, it was
not always so.

LD


Just my $.002

CD
boulder CO

Art is a personal feeling. Look at the way Michelangelo and Picasso painted
women. Quite a difference.

Then there's the power of the Patron. Old Bartolomeo Giocondo was
overheard to say " nice smile, but I was going to hang it in the bedroom, so
I figured maybe a bit more cleavage...."

Last, the critics, who panned the fresco in Milan because "anybody knows
thirteen people wouldn't sit on _one_ side of the table."

Can't please 'em all.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:naDed.472$dW.345@trnddc08...
(cindy drozda) wrote:


...And you can add to the list: Or has a spouse with a job, retirement
income, savings and house paid for from previous career, and on and
on..... And you can add to the list all artists in every medium that I
have spoken to about the subject. Since I "make my living" from
turning, I'm very interested in the subject.

Why is it that our society doesn't respect craftspeople as much as it
does lawyers, doctors, insurance people, etc.

I think it is based on perceived need. People need doctors, lawyers,
mechanics, etc. They can 'get along' without craftspeople. Though, it was
not always so.

LD


Just my $.002

CD
boulder CO

In article ,
cindy drozda wrote:
..... And you can add to the list all artists in every medium that I
have spoken to about the subject.

Why is it that our society doesn't respect craftspeople as much as it does
lawyers, doctors, insurance people, etc.


I have always enjoyed photography and one of my personal heroes was Ansel
Adams. In an interview filmed shortly before his death he told how even
though he had been famous for 40 years, he hadn't been able to earn a
living from his art photography until the last few years of his life.

I don't think it's just our society, I think it has always been that way.
As near as I can tell, with a very few individual exceptions, artists have
never been paid well in any culture throughout history.

You'd think that a turner selling hollow forms for thousands of dollars
each would be raking in the moola, but it doesn't work out that way.
Above a certain level of quality and artistic merit, the big bucks are
paid for the signature on the bottom, and in order for that to happen you
have to spend so much time doing marketing - making a name for yourself -
that you have less time to turn. Plus, those high dollar sales come
slower, so that by the time annual tax forms are filed even the biggest of
the big names may not have more to report than the anonymous craft show
seller cranking out salad bowls all year.

It's not just turners, it's pretty much all artists and crafters, and I
think it has always been that way. Bummer.

-mike paulson, fort collins, co

"cindy drozda" wrote in message


...And you can add to the list: Or has a spouse with a job, retirement
income, savings and house paid for from previous career, and on and
on..... And you can add to the list all artists in every medium that I
have spoken to about the subject. Since I "make my living" from turning,
I'm very interested in the subject.

Why is it that our society doesn't respect craftspeople as much as it does
lawyers, doctors, insurance people, etc.

T'was not always the case. Patron families of the arts, and royalty,
especially those in 17th and 18th Century Europe, valued composers, artists,
and skilled craftspeople (luthiers, for example) above the "unwashed
masses," including physicians, midwives, and barristers/advocates. And
there were periods when the cobbler or basket weaver were on equal or
superior societal footing compared with the barber/physicians and tax
collectors.

Today our global societies are far more pragmatic, a change brought about by
the necessities of life in which populations have grown manifold along with
the accompanying societal problems of runaway population growth. Doctors,
lawyers, and insurance people make more money because their trades are in
such high demand. And money translates to respect in our often perverse
societal value hierarchy. That's why someone making $10 million per year
playing NBA ball or $40 million per year making movies or recording music is
more respected than even the physicians and attorneys, let alone the
starving artisans.

That said, there are still those of us who are inspired and lifted by
performing and visual arts, and grimace when forced to pay medical or legal
bills. Respect is relative.

Max

I think people do respect fine woodturning. Friends are surprised and
comment on my talent. But unless they have a lot of disposable income, the
prices are often high compared to what they would expect and are willing to
pay. They will pay $800 a year to the insurance man for their two vehicles
because the law demands it. Likewise the lawyer, doctor, etc.

"cindy drozda" wrote in message
...

....And you can add to the list: Or has a spouse with a job, retirement
income, savings and house paid for from previous career, and on and
on..... And you can add to the list all artists in every medium that I
have spoken to about the subject. Since I "make my living" from turning,
I'm very interested in the subject.

Why is it that our society doesn't respect craftspeople as much as it does
lawyers, doctors, insurance people, etc.

Just my $.002

CD
boulder CO

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message

I think people do respect fine woodturning. Friends are surprised and
comment on my talent. But unless they have a lot of disposable income,
the
prices are often high compared to what they would expect and are willing
to
pay.

I must admit I'm slightly puzzled by the high cost of turnings. I've seen
some wonderful hollow forms with superb workmanship for under $150, but I've
also seen many comparable pieces for four or five times that figure, or even
more.

Recently, in Bloomington, IN, I saw a rather simple spalted birch bowl for
nearly $155. Had it been perfectly finished and a bit more attractive in
design, it might have commanded that price. Sadly the finish, which
appeared to be a spray-on lacquer, was badly contaminated with dust. It was
anything but smooth or attractive. The bowl wasn't worth $30, IMO. Nearby
was an awesome bowl of some sort of burl with a natural edge. It was marked
$850. From the dust I surmised it had been sitting there for quite some
time.

I, an amateur of limited turning experience, can turn a 10" bowl to
completion in about two or three nights of a few hours each session. While
mine certainly aren't the finely crafted pieces that draw big money, they
really aren't all that bad. And my experience with finishes is quite
extensive, so that area isn't deficient. So my question: why does it seem
that turnings, especially bowls and hollow forms, are all priced so high?
It doesn't appear that the time involved is that great. And no doubt many
turners asking those prices have been turning only a few years themselves.
Are turners pricing themselves out of the market? Obviously I'm not
referring to something from, say, Dale Nish.

Max

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:33:29 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:

I, an amateur of limited turning experience, can turn a 10" bowl to
completion in about two or three nights of a few hours each session.

Think about that one, Max. If you were turning for a living, how much would you have to charge for your bowls if you spent 6 hours
making just one?

Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message

"Maxprop" wrote:

I, an amateur of limited turning experience, can turn a 10" bowl to
completion in about two or three nights of a few hours each session.
While

So let's call it 6 hours, depending what you use for "few". Now assume
that you'd like to make a living on that - remember, before you start
saying "well, I can live like a king on $20/hour" that there's a whole
pile of money you don't see when _somone_else_ pays you $20 an hour,
which you have to pay when you decide that $120 is plenty for that bowl.
By the time you've bought heath insurance and paid self-employment taxes
you're already down quite a bit, and then there's wood, lathes, power,
finish, sandpaper, selling expenses, shop space, etc - pretty soon you
find that you are are working for wal-mart wages (or less) and you've
probably decided that you can't really afford health insurance anyway.

When you consider _all_ the time that you put into a piece, and figure
out a pay scale which actually covers _all_ your costs, and provides a
decent wage to live on, you'll find that $120 looks pretty tiny, from
that perspective.

That was a very good explanation. Don't forget the time to scavenge wood,
cut it with a chainsaw, clean the shop, pack the piece and deliver to the
gallery. Even a hobby turner charging $20 is making very little money.
He
also has to pay for a lathe, tools, electric, sandpaper, finishes etc.

Both of these responses make excellent points. But the laws of supply and
demand seldom takes such considerations into account. My lawn service is a
man with one employee. He recently purchased a new zero-turn mower for
roughly $8K and maintains many other expensive pieces of equipment, not to
mention his truck and trailer. And he, too, must pay taxes, employee wages,
FICA, health insurance, etc. But he still cannot charge more than $30 to
$40 to mow my lawn in this locale. To remain competitive he must charge
what the market will bear. I suspect he believes he works for Wal-Mart
wages at times.

So why do some woodturners believe themselves exempt from the laws of supply
and demand? Please allow me to play devil's advocate, if you will.

Max

"Peter Teubel" wrote in message

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:33:29 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:

I, an amateur of limited turning experience, can turn a 10" bowl to
completion in about two or three nights of a few hours each session.


Think about that one, Max. If you were turning for a living, how much
would you have to charge for your bowls if you spent 6 hours
making just one?

The decision I'd have to make would be whether the fair market rates for my
turnings would allow me to turn for a living. In addition, I'd more than
likely have to make the effort to be able to turn a 10" bowl in less time to
enable myself to sell my turnings for competitive prices.

Max

"Kevin" wrote in message

Max,

Where in Bloomington did you see this bowl? Was it at a consignment shop
or
a local crafts outlet? I ask because I am in B-ton.

Thanks,
-Kevin

Both descriptions apply, it would seem. The shop is in the mall (?) on
Kirkwood on the south side of the square.

Max

Max

In article .net,
"Maxprop" wrote:

So why do some woodturners believe themselves exempt from the laws of supply
and demand? Please allow me to play devil's advocate, if you will.

Sure Max (just hold your index fingers up beside your head for horns),

Becasue they'd rather not turn for commerce if they can't make a decent
living at it, and have other options for work to make ends meet, plus a
tiny shred of self-respect? This does not really address the bowl of
poor quality with the high pricetag you started on (well perhaps it
does, actually).

I do not, at present, turn for commerce. I have hopes that I might, but
I am not willing to turn for 50 cents per hour, and $5 is not so great
either. If I'm not doing it for money, I can have fun with it. If I can
work out still having fun and doing it for money, great. If it has to be
a grinding bore in order to make money at it, it's not worth throwing
away something I have fun doing, in order to have a low paying grind of
a job - I can have fun turning with some other job that might not be so
much fun to pay the bills.

So, I believe that when I get to trying to sell stuff, I'm going to be
making an effort to work on stuff that I can actually hope to get a
living wage out of, and if it does not sell, chopping the price in half
is not going to be the answer. Making something different might be,
finding a different place to sell might be, and retiring from commerce
centered turning might be; screwing myself to compete on price just
isn't it.

If you're turning a "commodity" (especially one that turners in Asia can
crank out), you fall into that sort of supply and demand thing - this is
obviously one reason some serious turners actively seek "art" status,
with the hope of a following that is never going to confuse their salad
bowl with the cheap commodity salad bowls sold at some large discount
store. But I think it's already been mentioned in this thread that few
artists of any medium actually make a decent living off of art - that's
the exception, not the rule.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

Because turnings do not follow the supply/demand curve. Nobody _needs_ a
$300 knickknack, they just _want_ it, and as the boys on Madison Ave. remind
us, it is the sizzle that sells, not just protein available elsewhere.

Think of some of the comments you have seen in this thread and elsewhere
about "hollow forms," where the pleasing external shape is in no way
dependent on the interior being hollow, or the walls being thin - it's just
fashionable. Add an established "name" to the equation, and Katie bar the
door....

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

So why do some woodturners believe themselves exempt from the laws of
supply
and demand? Please allow me to play devil's advocate, if you will.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
The decision I'd have to make would be whether the fair market rates for my
turnings would allow me to turn for a living. In addition, I'd more than
likely have to make the effort to be able to turn a 10" bowl in less time to
enable myself to sell my turnings for competitive prices.

If you want to make a living, you cannot allow 'fair market rate' to
dictate the price you ask for your products. You have to figure out how
much it costs YOU to make the product and to sell it. If it does not
sell for that price, you do not have a commercially viable product for
YOUR market.

There are exceptions, such as loss-leaders, but you cannot afford too
many products that are not designed to afford you an acceptable income.
For example, I make much more profit from $10 bottle stoppers than I do
from a c.$200 OOAK piece. I make very few OOAK's and they often sit in
my studio for several years before they sell. BUT, they do serve a
purpose. They become a focus of attention, they start conversations with
customers, and they tell a lot about the art of woodturning and give
more perceived worth to the less expensive items. And of course, they do
sell eventually, and it means that when someone comes in with a credit
card burning a hole in their wallet, I have something to sell them.

There are other ways to compete other than on price. Indeed, as I said
before, the lowest acceptable price must be set by your costs and income
expectations. By adding unique design, select wood grains, packaging and
other marketing tactics, you can increase this baseline price by adding
something unique to your product so that a comparison cannot be made to
other turned products on price alone.

The hardest lesson to learn is that selling is not about you and your
work, but about your customer and what you and your product can do for them.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
Wedding Favors ~ Artisan Crafted Gifts ~ One-of-a-Kind Woodturning

Howdy everyone. I haven't posted for a while here, except to announce
updates to my webpage and tout my DVD coming up, but this has been a very
interesting discussion, and I have somewhat to contribute. Max, I have
discovered that fair market rate doesn't really apply in most of my
situations of selling turnings. In the most absolute sense it does, but the
key to to make things that are not available elsewhere on the market. For
example, most of my spindle turning is for people who cannot get what they
want anywhere else. There really is no market rate for that. It is more
like, "How much is it worth to you?" If it is worth what I tell them I will
charge, then I get the job. If not, they keep looking. Of course, I manage
to screw up from time to time and pay for the privilege of working, but that
rarely happens anymore.

For bowls and other "art" pieces, it comes down to quality, perception and
time spent. The quality has to be there for people to pay the big bucks.
Sure there are some unperceptive people out there with money, but the supply
is not as great as we might wish sometimes. Perception. Wood sells better
when there is a story - any story, but if you can make it relevant to the
buyer, that helps to sell it. As a person builds a reputation, the name
written on the bottom of the bowl increases its value, even in a regional
setting. If we keep selling in a certain area and develop as we go, we will
also develop a following of people who like our work.

Marketing ourselves is very important. There are some fantastic turners out
there who are not really people people, if you know what I mean. You can
have a barn full of stuff to sell, and it can all be beautiful, but if you
do not like or know how to market or sell, and are unwilling to pay someone
to do it for you, it is going to stay in that barn. Running a business
means that you spend a lot of time not making the product or performing the
service that the business provides. There has to be a balance, but there is
a lot more to it and cranking stuff out on the lathe.

Time is of the essence. All other things being roughly equal, the only way
to to improve profitability is to make the stuff faster. Back in the old
days of the mid 90s, I made nothing but pens. I had a tiny shop, so I
specialized. I was also one of the first five people on the internet to
sell wooden pens. We all knew who each other were, and checked up on one
another from time to time. I did time studies on myself on a regular basis,
and I got to the point where I could make 10 pens an hour, and I sold them
on the interenet as fast as I could make them. Those pens sold for $25.00
each. I did not turn 8 hours a day. I had to make my own boxes, do the
rest of the business, etc. Now there are about a skillion people on the
internet making pens, and half of them are selling them below what it costs
them to make them. Guess what I don't make anymore?

Right now I can turn a 12" salad bowl in about an hour. Total time invested
including harvesting the wood, roughing the blank, etc, usually represents
about 2 hours. That bowl will sell for $120.00. If the wood is figured, or
it is a natural edged art piece, I can make the price significantly higher.
I also have somewhat of an unusual advantage over some in that I burn wood
for heat in one of my outbuildings. So, harvested wood that degrades beyond
use, scraps, etc, all get used to keep me and mine warm during the winter.
That work would have to be done anyway, so there is a side benefit.

Anyway, this is a longwinded way of saying that in my experience,
distinguishing myself from the pack, going to markets where there is a
different scale, and using everything to its best advantage have allowed me
to make my turning profitable. I am not a millionare by any stretch, and
will never be. My wife has a good job and that helps tremendously, but lots
of people are able to say that, whether they are turners or not. My
woodturning and other woodworking allows me to do something I love, get paid
for it, and actually make a little bit of money as profit. I think that if
you look at most famous woodworkers, turners, or whatever (And I do not
claim to be in that group) you will find that not many, if any, are what one
would call wealthy by our current standards. However, if wealth is counted
as being able to do something you love and live on it, then that to me is
wealth.

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Peter Teubel" wrote in message

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:33:29 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


The decision I'd have to make would be whether the fair market rates for
my
turnings would allow me to turn for a living. In addition, I'd more than
likely have to make the effort to be able to turn a 10" bowl in less time
to
enable myself to sell my turnings for competitive prices.

Max

Luann Udell is an artist who writes a great blog, much of it is about
her experience making money from her art. I think it is well worth a look.

http://www.luannudell.com/blog/

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
Wedding Favors ~ Artisan Crafted Gifts ~ One-of-a-Kind Woodturning

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
The decision I'd have to make would be whether the fair market rates for
my
turnings would allow me to turn for a living. In addition, I'd more than
likely have to make the effort to be able to turn a 10" bowl in less time
to
enable myself to sell my turnings for competitive prices.


If you want to make a living, you cannot allow 'fair market rate' to
dictate the price you ask for your products. You have to figure out how
much it costs YOU to make the product and to sell it. If it does not sell
for that price, you do not have a commercially viable product for YOUR
market.

That's pretty much what I said, stated differently. Ultimately the market
determines the commercial viability of your product. Whether you call that
the "fair market rate" or the commercial viability of your product is
irrelevant. It's simply a matter of perspective, viewed from the market's
viewpoint or from that of the artist.

There are exceptions, such as loss-leaders, but you cannot afford too many
products that are not designed to afford you an acceptable income. For
example, I make much more profit from $10 bottle stoppers than I do from
a c.$200 OOAK piece. I make very few OOAK's and they often sit in my
studio for several years before they sell. BUT, they do serve a purpose.
They become a focus of attention, they start conversations with customers,
and they tell a lot about the art of woodturning and give more perceived
worth to the less expensive items. And of course, they do sell eventually,
and it means that when someone comes in with a credit card burning a hole
in their wallet, I have something to sell them.

There are other ways to compete other than on price. Indeed, as I said
before, the lowest acceptable price must be set by your costs and income
expectations. By adding unique design, select wood grains, packaging and
other marketing tactics, you can increase this baseline price by adding
something unique to your product so that a comparison cannot be made to
other turned products on price alone.

In other words, create a market of your own. Sadly such markets tend to be,
um, limited in scope. That said, some turners have done well with self-made
markets.

The hardest lesson to learn is that selling is not about you and your
work, but about your customer and what you and your product can do for
them.

Which returns to my original premise: the market determines what sells and
for what price. Many manufacturers of durable goods build their products to
a price, generally determined through exhaustive market research, that the
market will find acceptable or even attractive. Artists and artisans, OTOH,
tend to create from their imaginations, execute from their skills, and
attempt to sell. Which is probably why the term "starving artist" is so
commonly bantered about.

Max

"Bill Grumbine" wrote in message

Howdy everyone. I haven't posted for a while here, except to announce
updates to my webpage and tout my DVD coming up, but this has been a very
interesting discussion, and I have somewhat to contribute. Max, I have
discovered that fair market rate doesn't really apply in most of my
situations of selling turnings. In the most absolute sense it does, but
the
key to to make things that are not available elsewhere on the market. For
example, most of my spindle turning is for people who cannot get what they
want anywhere else. There really is no market rate for that.

While you won't find such "rates" in the BUC book, there still is a market
rate for such things. In health care we refer to them as reasonable and
customary charges. As an extreme example, if a customer needs a balustrade
for his ancient stairway, he may be willing to pay a lot for it. So he
approaches you, and you say: "I can replicate one of those for $2000." He
says, "thanks, but I'll ask someone else." Market ceilings, while not
finite or predetermined, do exist. Obviously among the very wealthy such
ceilings tend to seem almost limitless, but they still exist.

It is more
like, "How much is it worth to you?" If it is worth what I tell them I
will
charge, then I get the job. If not, they keep looking. Of course, I
manage
to screw up from time to time and pay for the privilege of working, but
that
rarely happens anymore.

For bowls and other "art" pieces, it comes down to quality, perception and
time spent. The quality has to be there for people to pay the big bucks.
Sure there are some unperceptive people out there with money, but the
supply
is not as great as we might wish sometimes. Perception. Wood sells
better
when there is a story - any story, but if you can make it relevant to the
buyer, that helps to sell it. As a person builds a reputation, the name
written on the bottom of the bowl increases its value, even in a regional
setting. If we keep selling in a certain area and develop as we go, we
will
also develop a following of people who like our work.

This falls under the general classification of marketing. A story, your
reputation, developing a client base: all marketing. And creative or
astute marketing can conceivably raise the limit on the fair market rate of
a turner's products.


Marketing ourselves is very important.

Guess I should have read on before typing the above paragraph. :-)

There are some fantastic turners out
there who are not really people people, if you know what I mean. You can
have a barn full of stuff to sell, and it can all be beautiful, but if you
do not like or know how to market or sell, and are unwilling to pay
someone
to do it for you, it is going to stay in that barn. Running a business
means that you spend a lot of time not making the product or performing
the
service that the business provides. There has to be a balance, but there
is
a lot more to it and cranking stuff out on the lathe.

Ah yes, the age-old time constraint between being an artist and a salesman
all in one body.

Time is of the essence.

I really should read on before typing. :-))

All other things being roughly equal, the only way
to to improve profitability is to make the stuff faster. Back in the old
days of the mid 90s, I made nothing but pens. I had a tiny shop, so I
specialized. I was also one of the first five people on the internet to
sell wooden pens. We all knew who each other were, and checked up on one
another from time to time. I did time studies on myself on a regular
basis,
and I got to the point where I could make 10 pens an hour, and I sold them
on the interenet as fast as I could make them. Those pens sold for $25.00
each. I did not turn 8 hours a day. I had to make my own boxes, do the
rest of the business, etc. Now there are about a skillion people on the
internet making pens, and half of them are selling them below what it
costs
them to make them. Guess what I don't make anymore?

This was one of my original contentions: will the fair market rate allow me
to turn and sell my products. Your pen example makes my point. Obviously
OOAK turnings fall under a somewhat different set of rules, but the basic
principle is the same, I think.

Right now I can turn a 12" salad bowl in about an hour. Total time
invested
including harvesting the wood, roughing the blank, etc, usually represents
about 2 hours. That bowl will sell for $120.00. If the wood is figured,
or
it is a natural edged art piece, I can make the price significantly
higher.
I also have somewhat of an unusual advantage over some in that I burn wood
for heat in one of my outbuildings. So, harvested wood that degrades
beyond
use, scraps, etc, all get used to keep me and mine warm during the winter.
That work would have to be done anyway, so there is a side benefit.

Anyway, this is a longwinded way of saying that in my experience,
distinguishing myself from the pack, going to markets where there is a
different scale, and using everything to its best advantage have allowed
me
to make my turning profitable. I am not a millionare by any stretch, and
will never be. My wife has a good job and that helps tremendously, but
lots
of people are able to say that, whether they are turners or not. My
woodturning and other woodworking allows me to do something I love, get
paid
for it, and actually make a little bit of money as profit. I think that
if
you look at most famous woodworkers, turners, or whatever (And I do not
claim to be in that group) you will find that not many, if any, are what
one
would call wealthy by our current standards. However, if wealth is
counted
as being able to do something you love and live on it, then that to me is
wealth.

Your post is probably the most thorough in answering my original query.
Thanks, Bill.

Max

"Walt & Jenne Ahlgrim" wrote in message

Don't forget the store is keeping ½ the price.

No disrespect intended, but that is really irrelevant. If the market will
bear a $75 bowl of average quality and finish, it is not reasonable to ask
$150 for it simply because the store retains 50%. Nor is accepting $37.50
if the turner has more than that 'invested' in his piece. What is
significant is that the turner may not be able to market his turnings
through such a store, unless he's willing to take a loss against what he
believes his work to be worth. The market won't pay more just because the
store wants its cut, and the market ultimately controls the price of such
items.

I once asked a renowned painter what his paintings were worth. His
response: "Only what someone is willing to pay for them."

Max

"George" george@least wrote in message

Because turnings do not follow the supply/demand curve. Nobody _needs_ a
$300 knickknack, they just _want_ it, and as the boys on Madison Ave.
remind
us, it is the sizzle that sells, not just protein available elsewhere.

Think of some of the comments you have seen in this thread and elsewhere
about "hollow forms," where the pleasing external shape is in no way
dependent on the interior being hollow, or the walls being thin - it's
just
fashionable. Add an established "name" to the equation, and Katie bar the
door....

I'll agree that your scenario applies to those with high or unlimited
discretionary income, but for the majority of the market population I'd have
to question the premise of your first sentence. No doubt we'd all like to
have a market for our turnings composed strictly of millionaires, but that's
not entirely reasonable or practical for the majority of us. I believe the
average middle-class buyer of objets d'art, even the affluent ones, have a
price ceiling for their purchases. Even $300, OOAK knickknacks of dubious
necessity have competition from other $300, OOAK knickknacks. And where
competition exists, so does a relative fair market value.

About 15 years ago I read an article in WINE SPECTATOR about an auction in
San Francisco offering a full case of 1961 Petrus. When the top bidder
failed to meet the reserve set by the owner, the owner was perplexed. The
top bidder went on record as saying, "A case of '61 went only last week at
Sotheby's for $10K less than I bid. I simply wouldn't go any higher."

Max

Max, I don't sell turnings for a living nor to pay for or justify
expensive turning gear, so from a position of ignorance I've come to
wonder if---
***********************************************
-art isn't really in the purse of the beholder and affordable art is a
non sequitur.

-woodturning beginning as a Hobby doesn't often become a Hobby-business
that soon becomes a Business-hobby, then becomes a Business and finally
becomes a Trade or Profession that usually alone can't provide a Living.

-I would fit in or could put up with the crass marketplace after
enjoying the warm praise of friends and family.

-anyone can tell me what makes for a quality turned piece... or its
opposite.

-being a happy slob, is it a good or bad thing for me to be continually
disappointed in striving for the impossible; perfection.

-turning to please other turners doesn't lead to disappointment in the
market.

-many merchant/artist woodturners aren't doomed by their inherent
modesty and excessive reticence.

-many fine turners don't 'make it' because they can't teach or
socialize.

-you can't film it, demonstrate it or write about it, can you sell it.

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Following on Arch's comment:" I've come to wonder if----art isn't really
in the purse of the beholder and affordable art is a non sequitur."

I'd just toss in this only obliquely related observation, coming from a
position of one who never sells his turnings, but has purchased the
turnings of others, including the "big" names.

Folks purchase artistic turnings for many reasons, including a genuine
appreciation for (if not visceral connection to) the object itself,a
desire to be some how elevated by an association with a striking object
or the artist's reputation, a belief that the work will increase in
monetary and/or artistic value (a game in and of itself), and the point
I wish to most make here, a desire to support the continued production
of an artist's work.

The latter means that the price one pays is not an attempt to obtain a
"fair market price" for the current value of the work itself (however
that might be valued) but a willingness to pay more than than that
intrinsic monetary value as a desire to increase the likelihood that the
artist will produce more works of comparable or increased artistic
value. Sure, some artists will produce works regardless of whether they
can eat well,or have a decent automobile, but for most, the best way to
insure that an artist can be free to offer their artistic expressions is
to see to it that they can maintain a decent quality of life doing so.
That, my friends, means being willing to pay more than what you might be
able to obtain some item for elsewhere. Interestingly, I don't find the
willingness to do so being all that related to the income of the
purchaser, indeed, it seems to me that often folks of limited financial
means have more empathy for the artist than those much more financially
well off.

Lyn

Arch wrote:
Max, I don't sell turnings for a living nor to pay for or justify
expensive turning gear, so from a position of ignorance I've come to
wonder if---
***********************************************
-art isn't really in the purse of the beholder and affordable art is a
non sequitur.

-woodturning beginning as a Hobby doesn't often become a Hobby-business
that soon becomes a Business-hobby, then becomes a Business and finally
becomes a Trade or Profession that usually alone can't provide a Living.

-I would fit in or could put up with the crass marketplace after
enjoying the warm praise of friends and family.

-anyone can tell me what makes for a quality turned piece... or its
opposite.

-being a happy slob, is it a good or bad thing for me to be continually
disappointed in striving for the impossible; perfection.

-turning to please other turners doesn't lead to disappointment in the
market.

-many merchant/artist woodturners aren't doomed by their inherent
modesty and excessive reticence.

-many fine turners don't 'make it' because they can't teach or
socialize.

-you can't film it, demonstrate it or write about it, can you sell it.

Turn to Safety, Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I don't turn for a living, I turn for fun. I make what I feel like making
and that is what goes to the gallery or show. If it sells great, if not I
keep it. Most of what I make is textured, colored or some combination.
While some of my shapes are utilitarian the embellishment pushes them more
towards a display item than say a walmart salad bowl. As others here said,
the desire to own something of beauty throws the supply demand thing out the
window. My prices are not totally set on the hours to make a piece but on
what I think the market will bear. As an example I have a 5" dia. bowl that
is carved and painted on the outside. I have about 3 hours into the piece
but will only get $40 due to the small size. On the other side I have
beautiful 10" dia. x 8" high bowl made from spalted silver maple. I only
have about 3 1/2 hours into that piece but will get $130 for that one. When
you start looking at decorative pieces hourly rate gets overruled by beauty.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message

"Maxprop" wrote:

I, an amateur of limited turning experience, can turn a 10" bowl to
completion in about two or three nights of a few hours each session.
While

So let's call it 6 hours, depending what you use for "few". Now assume
that you'd like to make a living on that - remember, before you start
saying "well, I can live like a king on $20/hour" that there's a whole
pile of money you don't see when _somone_else_ pays you $20 an hour,
which you have to pay when you decide that $120 is plenty for that
bowl.
By the time you've bought heath insurance and paid self-employment
taxes
you're already down quite a bit, and then there's wood, lathes, power,
finish, sandpaper, selling expenses, shop space, etc - pretty soon you
find that you are are working for wal-mart wages (or less) and you've
probably decided that you can't really afford health insurance anyway.

When you consider _all_ the time that you put into a piece, and figure
out a pay scale which actually covers _all_ your costs, and provides a
decent wage to live on, you'll find that $120 looks pretty tiny, from
that perspective.

That was a very good explanation. Don't forget the time to scavenge
wood,
cut it with a chainsaw, clean the shop, pack the piece and deliver to
the
gallery. Even a hobby turner charging $20 is making very little money.
He
also has to pay for a lathe, tools, electric, sandpaper, finishes etc.

Both of these responses make excellent points. But the laws of supply and
demand seldom takes such considerations into account. My lawn service is
a
man with one employee. He recently purchased a new zero-turn mower for
roughly $8K and maintains many other expensive pieces of equipment, not to
mention his truck and trailer. And he, too, must pay taxes, employee
wages,
FICA, health insurance, etc. But he still cannot charge more than $30 to
$40 to mow my lawn in this locale. To remain competitive he must charge
what the market will bear. I suspect he believes he works for Wal-Mart
wages at times.

So why do some woodturners believe themselves exempt from the laws of
supply
and demand? Please allow me to play devil's advocate, if you will.

Max

Max, this is an extremely important concept that many people, not just
turners, do not seem to get! I was in a gallery for a while where I knew
several of the other "artists" also in that gallery. Some of them would
complain regularly about the gallery taking a cut of their price! There was
one lady who thought the gallery should be happy with 10%. Some of them
demanded that the gallery's price reflect both the commission and the
artist's retail. In this particular gallery, the owner was taking a 30%
commission. For a $100 piece, the artist received $70. Some folks demanded
that their $100 piece be tagged at $130, all because they deserved the full
retail price, and if the gallery wanted their share, it had to be tacked on!
As you say, people need to decide what their piece will sell for and then
decide of the gallery cut, or the show expense is going to be worth it.
That is part of the cost of doing business, regardless of whether or not the
person is a professional business person or not.

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine

commercial site www.wonderfulwood.com
personal site www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Maxprop" wrote in message
news

"Walt & Jenne Ahlgrim" wrote in message

Don't forget the store is keeping ½ the price.

No disrespect intended, but that is really irrelevant. If the market will
bear a $75 bowl of average quality and finish, it is not reasonable to ask
$150 for it simply because the store retains 50%. Nor is accepting $37.50
if the turner has more than that 'invested' in his piece. What is
significant is that the turner may not be able to market his turnings
through such a store, unless he's willing to take a loss against what he
believes his work to be worth. The market won't pay more just because the
store wants its cut, and the market ultimately controls the price of such
items.

I once asked a renowned painter what his paintings were worth. His
response: "Only what someone is willing to pay for them."

Max