For woodturners the current buzz-word is "critique". The latest in a
decade's sequence of 'golden ratios' - '5K grit' -'fair-curve's -
'thin' - 'hollow' - 'gossamer' - 'carved' - 'fenistrated' -
'tortured' and recently - 'art'. Turners are competing to be the next
'mea culpa' masochist, and are standing in line to gratefully endure
the criticism of any lout with a keyboard and a copy of 'Art Today- The
meaning of Life' and all that. I suppose that a truly useful critique
is essentially a list of likes and/or dislikes of a piece by someone who
has successfully played the game, and I guess these have rescued some
from a life of tacky to one of wallowing in a field of dreams. Trouble
is that old canard "eye of the beholder" keeps raising its ugly head.
Not all bad tho; it assures diversity and a personal approach to our
art and helps to avoid the 'funnel' effect of striving for someone
else's 'way'. It sure allays much of our feelings of guilt and failure.

Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the ultimate
forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a period of time
they will keep us well informed. With VBG's and firm TIC, Arch

Fortiter,

(Arch) wrote in
:

For woodturners the current buzz-word is "critique". The latest in a
decade's sequence of 'golden ratios' - '5K grit' -'fair-curve's -
'thin' - 'hollow' - 'gossamer' - 'carved' - 'fenistrated' -
'tortured' and recently - 'art'. Turners are competing to be the
next 'mea culpa' masochist, and are standing in line to gratefully
endure the criticism of any lout with a keyboard and a copy of 'Art
Today- The meaning of Life' and all that. I suppose that a truly
useful critique is essentially a list of likes and/or dislikes of a
piece by someone who has successfully played the game, and I guess
these have rescued some from a life of tacky to one of wallowing in a
field of dreams. Trouble is that old canard "eye of the beholder"
keeps raising its ugly head. Not all bad tho; it assures diversity
and a personal approach to our art and helps to avoid the 'funnel'
effect of striving for someone else's 'way'. It sure allays much of
our feelings of guilt and failure.

Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the
ultimate forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a
period of time they will keep us well informed. With VBG's and firm
TIC, Arch

Fortiter,

If there's room for Velvet Elvis, there's room for anything.

While some other turners have tried to buy my stuff, I never sold a piece to
them. I have swapped for some things that have found their way into darker
storage areas of my house, and even the garage. I have some of their pieces
on display, and have gifted others to relatives. I assume my pieces have
suffered a similar fate once the fascination has worn off, though it hasn't
stopped me from turning.

I like the idea of a compare, not a critique. Everyone make and post your
favorite egg, since Easter is coming, next a board turning, a vase, etc.
That way we're really swapping ideas the way we swap work for work at shows.
The only one qualified to critique my work has slept next to me these thirty
eight years, the rest pay cash....

"Arch" wrote in message
...

Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the ultimate
forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a period of time
they will keep us well informed. With VBG's and firm TIC, Arch

Fortiter,

Arch, I was reading a critique on another forum, and the turner was given a
difficult time about the piece he had posted. I noticed that the piece was
already sold. The best master at critiquing a piece is always the customer or
spouse in my book.
Nashville, Georgia

For woodturners the current buzz-word is "critique". ...

Not all bad tho; it assures diversity and a personal approach to our
art and helps to avoid the 'funnel' effect of striving for someone
else's 'way'.

As opposed to the 'tunnel' effect of not seeing 'another way' of doing things
from a good critique.

I suppose that a truly useful critique is essentially a list of likes and/or
dislikes of a piece...

A good and useful critique will be clarity of vision and offering suggestions
for a new direction even if the criticizer doesn't particularly like it. A good
critiquer will set aside their likes and dislikes, as much as is humanly
possible, for the benefit of the artist. It happens every day in art and design
schools around the world.

Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the ultimate
forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a period of time
they will keep us well informed.

Why draw out the process over a long period of time from lesser qualified
critiques the general public provides? Isn't there benefit from getting a
focussed, well-informed critique and saving you months of work not to mention a
few trees? Dan

Arch

I am guilty of being so self-centered that I know everyone who sees my work
will just love it! Yea right....

Critique to me is something akin to opinion. And you know about
those...everyone has one and they all stink...

I took the challenge from Ahilton and others who began the thread on
critique, to see if they were willing to put their fingertips and breath to
use to conduct a proper critique. So far, most of the posts are in the vein
of -"Wow - nice work" . I think a critique is something that a considerate
person can conduct if it is done to connect the work with some type of
standard or ideal. The only problem is the standard and the ideal are
moving around more than the hemlines of women's Spring fashions (by the way,
the higher the better). Critique should be meted out in small portions that
have very specific comments about the ways in which the piece can be
oriented or finished or formed and should never include comments like - um,
I think the finial has too many beads and it should be shorter, longer
fatter or smaller etc. These are not comments a person who is conducting a
critique should be making. Rather a critique should be objective with very
little first person statements involved.

A funny story (at least I think it is) about a critique one of my pieces
received at the 2002 Symposium in Providence. It may be on the Instant
Gallery tape - I heard it was done, but I did not see it. Anyway, I was
looking through the stuff on the table that had my one piece displayed.
When along came a tall fellow with flowing grey beard, long hair and ball
cap. Judging from the minor entourage, I figured this person would know his
stuff. He stopped a few steps from my piece provided a few comments to a
fellow turner about his work, applause Turning in my direction this
gentleman took a few steps, I caught his eye, then pointed to my lowly Ash
bowl with Thick Rim and flowing reverse curve at the base for a foot. The
#1 man picked up my piece held it aloft and declared, 'I like the thick
sides, fat rim and heavy feel to this piece, but I would cut the foot off
and make it appear more rounded at this point,' pointing at the side of the
bowl at 1/3 the way up the side. I was both happy and sad - happy that this
artist took a moment to consider this item and sad that I failed to make the
piece in the proper way to entice the art world to accept me.

The next month, I spent hour after hour trying to make another bowl to look
the way this man suggested - none of them spoke to me in anything but a
contrived voice. Later that Winter, I was invited by the Director of my
State's museum to show her a few pieces of my work. I selected a total of 8
pieces, small, large, big, small, bowl and vase - then I grabbed that ill
formed bowl as an afterthought. I eagerly placed the pieces on the display
table in front of the museum director, holding the lowly bowl back, not
wanting to diminish my chances of receiving more than scant consideration.
Well, the director walked around the objects, said "these are nice, do you
have anything else?" Pregnant paues, I reached below the table and produced
the Object of Ill Critique.

As soon as the bad bowl hit the table top, the museum dorector said - "WOW!
I love this piece - great form, strong foot and the figure! How much are you
asking for this one?" Thunderstruck, I asked "Wha..What?" She said "This
piece is just lovely, I want it in our museums of Contemporary Art and
Craft" I said "Really! Um, ... I was hoping to receive about $850.00 for
that one" after doing some quick cyphering on my feet. She said "OK - Ill
take it!" She then instructed me to sit a spell while the remainder of her
staff reveiwed the other 8 pieces. They took them all, adding another one
to the Art Collection and the rest to the museum store! I walked out empty
handed but laden with a fat check and a light heart.

The moral...I do not know if there is one except that the opinion critique
of one person should not be taken as the gospel of the art community - even
if that person is praised, lauded and held in high esteem by the very
community that you just got a fat check and a little bit of validation!

I like having people react to my work, so critique is welcome, only if it is
not just your opinion! Oh yes, the best critique's include a few Benjamin
Franklins and Andrew Jacksons!

Ray














"Arch" wrote in message
...
For woodturners the current buzz-word is "critique". The latest in a
decade's sequence of 'golden ratios' - '5K grit' -'fair-curve's -
'thin' - 'hollow' - 'gossamer' - 'carved' - 'fenistrated' -
'tortured' and recently - 'art'. Turners are competing to be the next
'mea culpa' masochist, and are standing in line to gratefully endure
the criticism of any lout with a keyboard and a copy of 'Art Today- The
meaning of Life' and all that. I suppose that a truly useful critique
is essentially a list of likes and/or dislikes of a piece by someone who
has successfully played the game, and I guess these have rescued some
from a life of tacky to one of wallowing in a field of dreams. Trouble
is that old canard "eye of the beholder" keeps raising its ugly head.
Not all bad tho; it assures diversity and a personal approach to our
art and helps to avoid the 'funnel' effect of striving for someone
else's 'way'. It sure allays much of our feelings of guilt and failure.

Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the ultimate
forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a period of time
they will keep us well informed. With VBG's and firm TIC, Arch

Fortiter,

That's sad, Ray. Where did I challenge anyone about anything in the Online
Critique thread? Why must you throw around flame bait? I simply and
sincerely asked questions on a serious subject and you twist it into your
own perceived "challenge". There were no "others" that began the thread.
Only me and those few who have responded so far (which includes you, btw).
Direct your venom only to me please. Those responders don't need it. I
don't either but I'm willing to accept it as a cost of posting in an large,
open forum and, hopefully, getting answers to some of my questions. Who
knows, it might start a serious debate and evolve as many posts do into
something useful.

Nowhere (especially in the Online Critique thread) have I even come close to
suggesting that I am of the ability to "conduct a proper critique", whatever
that means to you. I do feel that I have the right to my own opinions and
ability to express them (quit rolling your eyes everybody!) as I feel
everyone has that right. My opinions are my own and are derived from my own
experiences and study. I do not have the level of study and learning as an
art historian, gallery owner, nor of an accomplished woodturner (which could
be all the same in some people) but I do feel my opinions count as such they
are. I feel this about anyone's opinions and critiques. There ARE those
that believe that only proper training and education give them the "right"
to critique others' work but I am not one of them. I DO give their training
and education the credit it deserves but I also don't give it more than my
own instincts (and certainly pride g) demands. To suggest that, with my
original post of questions in the Online Critique, I think of myself as
superior to others in ability to critique is ... again .... sad.

Just because someone posts questions about a topic doesn't necessarily mean
that they are challenging you or presenting themselves as a superior in some
aspects to you. It was nice that you posted an item of yours to ABPW for
critique but don't presume to suggest that it was at my request either
implicit or implied.

Apparently you have strong feelings about woodturning critique. I sincerely
hope that you can direct those feelings in a positive manner and offer
suggestions, pitfalls, strategies, and helpful ideas to the Online Critiques
thread.

- Andrew


I took the challenge from Ahilton and others who began the thread on
critique, to see if they were willing to put their fingertips and breath
to
use to conduct a proper critique. So far, most of the posts are in the
vein

Arch, as always that was an excellent post, ummm I mean musing. : )
I must agree with you on everything and with the turners who
responded.

I don't know how many of you have ever had the opportunity to hear
Frank Sudol talk, but he disapproves of critiques and critiquers. A
few years ago at the AAW Symposium in RI, he gave a speech about the
foolishness of asking someone to critique our work which is actually
an expression of our opinion.

Yes, there are turners (and professionals in every other trade) who
have a good eye for design and are happy to share their expertise.
HOWEVER, just because they do not like a design, does not mean it's
not "art" or desirable. It just means they do not like the design,
that's all.

I think it all boils down to most people want approval of their work;
we're all little kids inside loving when someone says "Oh, that's
beautiful........ you stayed inside the lines"! It makes me feel
good. : )

Thanks for a good post.
Ruth
www.torne-lignum.com

Arch

I always enjoyed your observations and ramblings - this is meant in a most
respectfully way. In my view many don't question enough but your postings
are always stimulating to the mind.
On this occasion I must disagree with the general drift of your 'rambling'.
Firstly to my mind a critique should be viewed as what it is, a opinion by
another individual, purely subjective, rather than "by someone who has
successfully played the game",. The beauty of turning to my mind , or any
other creative discipline for that matter, is that there is no right or
wrong. If you believe in the work that you are producing you should surely
take on board the comments made and alter your views accordingly to your own
beliefs and not those of another if you don't agree.
You refer to the "ultimate forum for critique/criticism; the general public"
and "Over a period of time they will keep us well informed." In my country,
the UK, the general public are ignorant of the field of woodturning. To them
a woodturner is one who produces salad/fruits bowls, stair spindles and
functional items. They are not really aware of the diversity within turning.
If I followed your train of thought right, there would be no development
from this view.Turners wouldn't experiment, develop new ideas and then try
to stimulate the general public. You are fortunate in the States in that
this view has been altered for a limited few by the likes of David
Ellesworth, Stoney Lamar etc. Here we are about 20 years behind!
You mention "feelings of guilt and failure" which seems a trait among many
makers and crafts people I know and which I find hard to understand. I'm a
member of a group of 70 makers of all disciplines where we have monthly
reviews to maintain standards. Many appear to view a critique as a criticism
and feel that sense of failure if it isn't favourable. I actually value any
comments made about my work, whatever they might be, because it makes me
question what I'm doing and why. Because many of us work in isolation you
can become blinkered. Any outside response should be valued.
I hope you take this with the good intent with which it is made.

Mark Hancock
South Wales, UK
http://www.markhancock.co.uk

Andrew

I am not truying to throw flame bait, just taking the other thread to its
conclusion was to post a shot or so to see how people would conduct a
critique - I have only received the normal "nice work" replies. My comments
about opinions are quite frequently echoed by lots of folks. I think the
idea of conducting critiques is a good idea, if done properly.

The story I related was not supposed to be a sad story - it was on filled
with irony. The man I describes as having long beard, long hair and #1 is
someone that almost all turners know. My story was told to illustrate the
critique vs opinion dynamics that exist.

You did not challenge anyone to post a picture for people to critique, I did
that after reading the entire thread and jumping to the obvious conclusion -
we need a guinnea pig to see if this can work. Additionally, I am quite
geared toward friendly banter and often a bit acidic in my comments in the
hope that it will spark additional comment and discussion. I like to cut
down to the brass tacks, then pull them out!

I want everyone to drop their sheilds and let the truth fly once in a while!
We should all look at the posts on this forum as a means to interact with
like minded folks, learn from each other and occasionally have some fun!
Can't we all get along?

Here's to surfing on a Saturday night with the Grand Ol Opry playing on the
radio!

Ray







"AHilton" wrote in message
...
That's sad, Ray. Where did I challenge anyone about anything in the
Online
Critique thread? Why must you throw around flame bait? I simply and
sincerely asked questions on a serious subject and you twist it into your
own perceived "challenge". There were no "others" that began the thread.
Only me and those few who have responded so far (which includes you, btw).
Direct your venom only to me please. Those responders don't need it. I
don't either but I'm willing to accept it as a cost of posting in an
large,
open forum and, hopefully, getting answers to some of my questions. Who
knows, it might start a serious debate and evolve as many posts do into
something useful.

Nowhere (especially in the Online Critique thread) have I even come close
to
suggesting that I am of the ability to "conduct a proper critique",
whatever
that means to you. I do feel that I have the right to my own opinions and
ability to express them (quit rolling your eyes everybody!) as I feel
everyone has that right. My opinions are my own and are derived from my
own
experiences and study. I do not have the level of study and learning as an
art historian, gallery owner, nor of an accomplished woodturner (which
could
be all the same in some people) but I do feel my opinions count as such
they
are. I feel this about anyone's opinions and critiques. There ARE those
that believe that only proper training and education give them the "right"
to critique others' work but I am not one of them. I DO give their
training
and education the credit it deserves but I also don't give it more than my
own instincts (and certainly pride g) demands. To suggest that, with my
original post of questions in the Online Critique, I think of myself as
superior to others in ability to critique is ... again .... sad.

Just because someone posts questions about a topic doesn't necessarily
mean
that they are challenging you or presenting themselves as a superior in
some
aspects to you. It was nice that you posted an item of yours to ABPW for
critique but don't presume to suggest that it was at my request either
implicit or implied.

Apparently you have strong feelings about woodturning critique. I
sincerely
hope that you can direct those feelings in a positive manner and offer
suggestions, pitfalls, strategies, and helpful ideas to the Online
Critiques
thread.

- Andrew


I took the challenge from Ahilton and others who began the thread on
critique, to see if they were willing to put their fingertips and breath
to
use to conduct a proper critique. So far, most of the posts are in the
vein

Mark

"Blinkered" I think that is me - definitely!

I have been asked by many of my local friends to take a look at their work
an offer any advice. I would rather give advice than opinions - that way I
do not have to follow it and never have to tell some folks what I really
think.


Ray






"Mark Hancock" wrote in message
...
Arch

I always enjoyed your observations and ramblings - this is meant in a
most
respectfully way. In my view many don't question enough but your postings
are always stimulating to the mind.
On this occasion I must disagree with the general drift of your
'rambling'.
Firstly to my mind a critique should be viewed as what it is, a opinion by
another individual, purely subjective, rather than "by someone who has
successfully played the game",. The beauty of turning to my mind , or any
other creative discipline for that matter, is that there is no right or
wrong. If you believe in the work that you are producing you should surely
take on board the comments made and alter your views accordingly to your
own
beliefs and not those of another if you don't agree.
You refer to the "ultimate forum for critique/criticism; the general
public"
and "Over a period of time they will keep us well informed." In my
country,
the UK, the general public are ignorant of the field of woodturning. To
them
a woodturner is one who produces salad/fruits bowls, stair spindles and
functional items. They are not really aware of the diversity within
turning.
If I followed your train of thought right, there would be no development
from this view.Turners wouldn't experiment, develop new ideas and then try
to stimulate the general public. You are fortunate in the States in that
this view has been altered for a limited few by the likes of David
Ellesworth, Stoney Lamar etc. Here we are about 20 years behind!
You mention "feelings of guilt and failure" which seems a trait among many
makers and crafts people I know and which I find hard to understand. I'm a
member of a group of 70 makers of all disciplines where we have monthly
reviews to maintain standards. Many appear to view a critique as a
criticism
and feel that sense of failure if it isn't favourable. I actually value
any
comments made about my work, whatever they might be, because it makes me
question what I'm doing and why. Because many of us work in isolation you
can become blinkered. Any outside response should be valued.
I hope you take this with the good intent with which it is made.

Mark Hancock
South Wales, UK
http://www.markhancock.co.uk

What a great ng. I count a thread successful that engenders responses
like yours. Thanks to each of you.

Lobby. 'velvet art' depends on which way you brush it and on which
street corner it's sold on.

George, I don't know about posting eggs on RCW, but I have sure laid a
few.

Glenn, I 'm unsure about spouses, but my driving speed was once severely
critiqued by a cop who followed me from Norman Park almost to
Nashville.

Dan, Thanks for your cordial critique of my critique of critiques.

Ray, wallet approval can be the best critique of all.

Andrew, my post wasn't intended to
put down the thoughtful suggestions you made in another thread. My
timing does suggest that. Please forgive.

Ruth, I can stay between the lines and I bask in the praise I get. It's
connecting those d... dots that's so hard for me to do.

Mark, Not only do I think your intent is good, but also your remarks are
cogent. That you took the time is much appreciated. My poor musings
more often than not resemble a cameleon. Read them with a salt shaker
nearby.

Fair curves and 3:1 ratios to all, Arch

Fortiter,

Ray

"never have to tell some folks what I really think" - I think that's a shame
because who benefits?

"I would rather give advice than opinions - that way I do not have to follow
it" - How can you give advice if you don't believe it?

As I said before a critique is just an opinion and everybody's is different.
Your story of the bearded chap illustrates this. It should be constructive
and not destructive and it is then of value.
--
Mark Hancock
South Wales, UK
http://www.markhancock.co.uk

A funny story (at least I think it is) about a critique one of my pieces
received at the 2002 Symposium in Providence.

Ray, I think you are mixing critique with acceptance and even sales. They are
quite distinct. You asked the man with the gray beard for a critique and you got
one. It must have been good, it encouraged you to try new things. He never said
the piece wasn't any good and he never said he wouldn't buy it or add it to a
museum collection if given the chance. Just because he had a suggestion to make
doesn't mean that the piece had no value. That was something you decided.

One thing I've noticed about myself, and this may be true of your critiquer, is
that I tend to be more critical of work as it gets better. I'm not sure why and
its probably a fault of mine. Perhaps if I see a piece that was almost perfect I
want that last smidgeon of quality. Maybe he works the same way?

Here's the deal. EVERYONE criticises other peoples work. EVERYONE judges the
value of a turned piece. EVERYONE sees flaws. SOME will say this outloud. Even
FEWER will say it to you. Lucky YOU if they do. Dan

I think it all boils down to most people want approval of their work;
we're all little kids inside loving when someone says "Oh, that's
beautiful........ you stayed inside the lines"! It makes me feel
good. : ) Ruth


Ruth, I think what you said is quite true as far as you go. There is a
difference between an opinion and a critique. You can hear it in the questions.
"Do you like this piece?" versus "How can I improve on this?" If someone is
still looking for approval, the second question may not be a good idea. Dan

Not that you couldn't have predicted the result, eh, Arch? The "In's "
versus the "outs" all over.

Dan Bollinger:

"Why draw out the process over a long period of time from lesser qualified
critiques the general public provides? Isn't there benefit from getting a
focused, well-informed critique and saving you months of work not to mention
a
few trees?" Dan

Of course there are those wonderful juries of painters and papermakers whose
opinions we have to endure to sell our stuff, who are qualified because
they're "artists."

Ray Sandusky:

"Critique to me is something akin to opinion. And you know about
those...everyone has one and they all stink..."

He must have had the same MTI I did. No wonder that all cultures have the
equivalent of "different strokes..." or "de gustibus...." Expert opinion
is an oxymoron. Those who feel their opinion is worth more (not their
observation of crushed grain incompletely sanded on your posted pot) because
they're an expert are, well - not oxy.

Predictable Andy:
"That's sad, Ray. Where did I challenge anyone about anything in the Online
Critique thread? Why must you throw around flame bait? "

Anyone see this response as a precursor? Forest products Labs is really
wrong about bluestain being a fungus.

Ruth:

I think it all boils down to most people want approval of their work;
we're all little kids inside loving when someone says "Oh, that's
beautiful........ you stayed inside the lines"! It makes me feel
good. : )

Squarely on the head. You must be a grandma. But that's why the
pay-to-play forums like the one at WC are pretty much pap. Things like "use
of quartersawn wood for spindles will reduce ovalling" pass without a
comment, lest someone's feelings get ruffled.

BTW, I get to be a grandpa finally August/September time frame. What
bothers me is when we tell people that, they ask "who?" "The one kid who's
married, of course."

Nick Silva:

Online critiques on woodturning forums are generally from other (friendly)
hobbyists, not professional reviewers and not from regular humans.
They all seem to take the form of a pat on the back, a 'good job' or a
ataboy. Why? Because we all want to encourage other turnerss AND BECAUSE if
someone honestly came out and said, "I think it looks like crap", the
community would come down on the person so hard no one would ever say a bad
thing again.

Except me, of course. Or maybe Arch....

"Arch" wrote in message
...
For woodturners the current buzz-word is "critique".

George,

You're STILL smarting from being schooled on this topic so many months ago?
Poor guy (I assume). So, now you are saying that the FPL is wrong on this
topic??? Many of their whitepapers do have some problems but I'm not aware
of any technical problems with the one you are, obviously, referring to...

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/II-2.pdf

It is quite a simplistic explaination of bluestain (and adds spalting, etc.
in there for comparison but doesn't really make much of a distinction) but
it is, basically, an acceptable 2 page report on the subject. Bluestain IS
caused by a fungus. However, not everything "blue" is Bluestain just as not
everything moldy is spalting. LOL It's far too simplistic to think
otherwise. Surely, you are not using this one paper as the basis of all of
your purported knowledge on the topic? The FPL, FS and USDA do a good job of
study, reports, and disseminating information regarding topics such as wood
coloration and decay but they are certainly not the only ones. In fact,
they source out much of their study and report findings/writings to
educational, private and corporate institutions. These government agencies
just then regurgitate (and possibly repackage) that information without
review many times. I do commend the FPL for their efforts to keep their
information public instead of going back to hiding behind pay-priviledge
venues like so many institutions are doing the past few years.

But I digress again. g I notice that you still didn't answer my question
to your rather quick declaration on mineral stain after repeated requests.
To help you (and others that would dare to follow along yet again g), I'll
give the long link (watch the wrapping) to the thread that I believe you are
having a problem with this time and alluded to. Hopefully, you'll answer
the question. If you do, please just reply to one of my repeated requests
from THAT thread and leave this thread to the critiques topic. I only post
this one message in this thread in the hopes of drawing your attention as
you successfully (whether you really wanted MY attention or not) did mine.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...adm=4028c975_3
%40newspeer2.tds.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26ie%3DISO
-8859-1%26q%3Dbluestain%2Bfungus%2Bgroup%253Arec.crafts. woodturning%26meta%3
Dgroup%253Drec.crafts.woodturning


That post of yours is the very definition of a drive-by. Sad. Not surprising
but still sad. I welcome honest and frank discussion either publicly or
privately. But throwing shots out like you (and others) have just to see
what it hits just isn't acceptable. I'll try to bring it back into a
discussion of topics instead of just pot-shots.

- Andrew


Predictable Andy:
"That's sad, Ray. Where did I challenge anyone about anything in the
Online
Critique thread? Why must you throw around flame bait? "

Anyone see this response as a precursor? Forest products Labs is really
wrong about bluestain being a fungus.

Mark

The comments were more tongue in cheek than true -

Like I said in another message - we all have to lighten up a bit!

Ray



"Mark Hancock" wrote in message
...
Ray

"never have to tell some folks what I really think" - I think that's a
shame
because who benefits?

"I would rather give advice than opinions - that way I do not have to
follow
it" - How can you give advice if you don't believe it?

As I said before a critique is just an opinion and everybody's is
different.
Your story of the bearded chap illustrates this. It should be constructive
and not destructive and it is then of value.
--
Mark Hancock
South Wales, UK
http://www.markhancock.co.uk

Dan

I knew it was critique but the expression on his face as he said "I would
have cut the foot..." told me he was adding his personal artiste opinion
and that is what bent my tail feathers.

I learned quite a bit from this particular situation - including, be
prepared to hear something you do not expect and the work better be able to
stand up in the craftsmanship department as well as the form and design
originality. So, now I really take a good hard look at the work to see if
it hits high marks for skill and form before I even take the time to finish
it. I have a small pile of dead pieces of finished work. One of my goals
is the never have to put another piece in that pile.

Ray



"Dan Bollinger" wrote in message
news:vrTbc.180890$Cb.1689677@attbi_s51...
A funny story (at least I think it is) about a critique one of my pieces
received at the 2002 Symposium in Providence.

Ray, I think you are mixing critique with acceptance and even sales. They
are
quite distinct. You asked the man with the gray beard for a critique and
you got
one. It must have been good, it encouraged you to try new things. He
never said
the piece wasn't any good and he never said he wouldn't buy it or add it
to a
museum collection if given the chance. Just because he had a suggestion to
make
doesn't mean that the piece had no value. That was something you decided.

One thing I've noticed about myself, and this may be true of your
critiquer, is
that I tend to be more critical of work as it gets better. I'm not sure
why and
its probably a fault of mine. Perhaps if I see a piece that was almost
perfect I
want that last smidgeon of quality. Maybe he works the same way?

Here's the deal. EVERYONE criticises other peoples work. EVERYONE judges
the
value of a turned piece. EVERYONE sees flaws. SOME will say this outloud.
Even
FEWER will say it to you. Lucky YOU if they do. Dan

I knew it was critique but the expression on his face as he said "I would
have cut the foot..." told me he was adding his personal artiste opinion
and that is what bent my tail feathers.

Ray, It makes me wonder if he wasn't performing for his followers rather than
interested in giving some useful feedback. Too bad.

I learned quite a bit from this particular situation - including, be
prepared to hear something you do not expect and the work better be able to
stand up in the craftsmanship department as well as the form and design
originality.

That's a good lesson to learn, although at some expense to yourself. Dan

Greetings and Salutations....

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:17:47 -0500 (EST), (Arch) wrote:

For woodturners the current buzz-word is "critique". The latest in a
decade's sequence of 'golden ratios' - '5K grit' -'fair-curve's -
'thin' - 'hollow' - 'gossamer' - 'carved' - 'fenistrated' -
'tortured' and recently - 'art'. Turners are competing to be the next
'mea culpa' masochist, and are standing in line to gratefully endure
the criticism of any lout with a keyboard and a copy of 'Art Today- The
meaning of Life' and all that. I suppose that a truly useful critique

One great thing is that we are blessed with the right to
have opinions unhindered by fact or knowledge. *smile*.


is essentially a list of likes and/or dislikes of a piece by someone who
has successfully played the game, and I guess these have rescued some
from a life of tacky to one of wallowing in a field of dreams. Trouble
is that old canard "eye of the beholder" keeps raising its ugly head.

In Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, a "beholder" is a terrible
monster with eyes that blast destruction. Not an unreasonable
metaphor for much of the opinon posted on the Net.


Not all bad tho; it assures diversity and a personal approach to our
art and helps to avoid the 'funnel' effect of striving for someone
else's 'way'. It sure allays much of our feelings of guilt and failure.

Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the ultimate
forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a period of time
they will keep us well informed. With VBG's and firm TIC, Arch

Fortiter,



This is a point...Amongst the dross there are always a few
folks that are gems. They are the folks that can look at a turning,
and, see both the ideal beauty in it, and, how it might come
closer to that ideal. When I turn a chunk of wood, I get such
a picture in my head as to what it SHOULD look like. When I am
"in the groove" (and, perhaps a bit lucky) the physical product
matches that ideal image closely. When it does not...it can
be very helpful when another person looks at it and offers an
opinon on how it could be done a bit differently.
it is kind of tough, though, to NOT hear them saying
"man, you really suck as a turner...what a maroon*" However,
it *is* quit possible to understand that constructive criticism
is trying to help one's techniques improve...and is not a personal
slam. It is also very useful to hear how someone else might
have shaped an item, as that can bring new insight into one's own
work.
Just got to remember...it's not personal.
Regards
Dave Mundt


*(TM Warner Bro).